Problem with the Warshaper requirements

[Almus Rayne]

Okay, I get it why the Warshaper prestige class says you need to already have a shapeshifter subtype or to be able to cast polymorph... but can I just say that that sucks? I mean, not everyone who might want this class is either a finger-wiggler or a werewolf.

First of all, if you are someone who can cast a 4th level Sorcerer or Wizard spell then you are probably not someone who wants or even needs the ability to grow bigger bulky hands (etc.). And other than that, the prestige class seems to be locked for only werewolves and dopplegangers and the like. What about... What about Bill? Huh? What about poor Bill who is just a lumberjack but got experience from a life of slaying wolves as part of his job, and who thinks it would be great if he could strong arm more trees after he cut them down? He can't cast spells and as a lumberjack he is certainly not a druid. Also, if he became a werewolf he would lose business by being ostracized by the small closed-minded community he lives in. Why is there no alternative or work around for Bill?

[H_H_F_F]

Warshaper is a strong prestige class. Under some readings, it's completely busted and has to be houseruled so you can't just grow a 1000 tentacles or whatever.

It's also trivially easy to enter with a changeling, which is unfortunate - especially because a changeling always benefits from the features.

There are plenty of options for having limited shape shifting on a martial character, warshaper has a ton of elements which are layered on top of a shapechange effect.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you want easy and early access you go for Changeling as race. They have a racial ability that fits the requirement. Add 4 lvls of a full BAB class and enter at lvl 5.

[Doctor Despair]

Hengeyokai also qualifies at LA+0.

More problematic for me is that Morphic Weapon is completely busted based on how it's written and provides, if not infinite colossal natural weapons (as it shouldn't stack with itself), then at least one natural weapons of each type at one size category larger than your own, and that amounts to like 30 of them or something equally beyond the pale.

Regardless, getting in with no LA as a noncaster, as you see, was never the main issue.

[Crake]

Okay, I get it why the Warshaper prestige class says you need to already have a shapeshifter subtype or to be able to cast polymorph... but can I just say that that sucks? I mean, not everyone who might want this class is either a finger-wiggler or a werewolf.

First of all, if you are someone who can cast a 4th level Sorcerer or Wizard spell then you are probably not someone who wants or even needs the ability to grow bigger bulky hands (etc.). And other than that, the prestige class seems to be locked for only werewolves and dopplegangers and the like. What about... What about Bill? Huh? What about poor Bill who is just a lumberjack but got experience from a life of slaying wolves as part of his job, and who thinks it would be great if he could strong arm more trees after he cut them down? He can't cast spells and as a lumberjack he is certainly not a druid. Also, if he became a werewolf he would lose business by being ostracized by the small closed-minded community he lives in. Why is there no alternative or work around for Bill?

I'm not really sure what the issue is? Warshaper isn't for granting you shapeshifting abilities, it's for improving the ones you already have.

Wildshape ranger 5 is a perfectly good entry point for warshaper for example, as is changeling as people have mentioned. The prestige class also mentions bear warrior as an alternative.

Keep in mind that while warshaper requires very specific entry methods, any ability that alters your form can be used for the abilities in question, so anyone can take wildshape ranger 5 to qualify for warshaper, and then take egoist psion 1 with the minor change shape class feature to allow themselves to use the warshaper abilities practically at will, while in their "normal" form.

[Chronos]

Quoth Doctor Despair:

More problematic for me is that Morphic Weapon is completely busted based on how it's written and provides, if not infinite colossal natural weapons (as it shouldn't stack with itself), then at least one natural weapons of each type at one size category larger than your own, and that amounts to like 30 of them or something equally beyond the pale.
We had a thread once counting up all of them-- There are over a hundred different natural weapons found on monsters in various books.

[Darg]

We had a thread once counting up all of them-- There are over a hundred different natural weapons found on monsters in various books.

That's only if you believe special attacks are natural weapons. Logically it doesn't make sense at all that you can mimic Ex, Sp, and Su abilities simply by copying natural weapons.

Warshaper allows you to grow natural weapons (it can even be 20 horns if you want) with a single natural attack of the type of weapon that natural weapon is. If you grow antlers you get a single gore attack. If you grow an eye stalk, you get a poke-your-own-eye-out attack. You wouldn't be able to get the supernatural attack to shoot eye rays. Remember, there are natural, extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural attacks. Of course, this is hotly debated because readings that lead to extremely broken outcomes are popular even though they can't fly at any table wanting to have any semblance of fun for every one.

[Almus Rayne]

I'm not really sure what the issue is? Warshaper isn't for granting you shapeshifting abilities, it's for improving the ones you already have.

Ooop, you seem to have hit the nail on the head there. I have a martial character I'm designing (who obviously isn't Bill) that I am wanting to 'give' shaping to who doesn't already possess shapechanging. But I don't want a polymorph or a full transformation. I want them to be able to keep their original form and I am just looking to make their natural attacks better.

[H_H_F_F]

Ooop, you seem to have hit the nail on the head there. I have a martial character I'm designing (who obviously isn't Bill) that I am wanting to 'give' shaping to who doesn't already possess shapechanging. But I don't want a polymorph or a full transformation. I want them to be able to keep their original form and I am just looking to make their natural attacks better.

There are plenty of classes that give you temporary natural weapons. If you'd like to share the build elements you want/have to have, and let us know exactly what kind of effects you want to be able to achieve and by what level, we can help you do that. I'd recommend starting a new thread for that and linking it here, if you want to go that direction.

[Doctor Despair]

Ooop, you seem to have hit the nail on the head there. I have a martial character I'm designing (who obviously isn't Bill) that I am wanting to 'give' shaping to who doesn't already possess shapechanging. But I don't want a polymorph or a full transformation. I want them to be able to keep their original form and I am just looking to make their natural attacks better.

Have you considered Fleshwarper?

[H_H_F_F]

Have you considered Fleshwarper?

Or frostrager, or totemist, or weretouched master... As I said, plenty of options, jusr depends om the build and on what they want to accomplish.

[Wildstag]

Primeval could work. Or the Deities & Demigods "Berserker". Or Osteomancer.

There's a couple I like I'm missing I bet.

[Jervis]

No one is talking about the hilarity of Tibbit warshaper with that one prestige class that makes them immune to strength penalties, including racial and size. Their cat form is indefinite duration and gives hilariously high Dex.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No one is talking about the hilarity of Tibbit warshaper with that one prestige class that makes them immune to strength penalties, including racial and size. Their cat form is indefinite duration and gives hilariously high Dex.It's a tentaclat.

Sounds like a Pokemon.

[Jervis]

It's a tentaclat.

Sounds like a Pokemon.

Oh, and you qualify for the Fabulous Cats feats. Combined with tentacles those make for a very good tripper. You can also make a OKish grapple build if you have a way to make yourself count as large (cough divine minion Anhur to be a cat lion cough) then you can grapple as huge while you’re a big cat and trip with Dex while you’re a small one.

[Wildstag]

No one is talking about the hilarity of Tibbit warshaper with that one prestige class that makes them immune to strength penalties, including racial and size. Their cat form is indefinite duration and gives hilariously high Dex.

I thought I was done with Tibbit Warshaper shenanigans, but do share!

[Jervis]

I thought I was done with Tibbit Warshaper shenanigans, but do share!

It’s definitely a meme build and doesn’t strictly work RAW, though there are less memey ways to make it work and I would argue that this is a case of dnd misrepresenting a deities alignment since she’s a cat god that literally eats people, buuuuuuuut

Assumptions: LA Buyoff is allowed, soul born’s CE ability works on racial and size penalties, and Bast is represented as her CE god of vengeance and ungrateful people eating self.

Tibbit Divine Minion of Bast (LA bought off), CE
Soul Born 2 ( gives immunity to any fo of strength penalty, including racial penalties)
Fighter 2 (feats for tripping and grappling
Warshaper 5 (obvi)
Shapeshifter 1 (a 3rd source of wild shape that scales off character level, but we only need it for pre reqs)
Master of Many Forms 10

We mostly take feats involving tripping and grapplings. Seem weird? Well we can wild shape into a large lion with pounce for free and, being the Tibbit that we are, we qualify for that feat from fabulous cats that lets us count as a size category larger. So we grapple as huge. We can also be a tiny cat and trip with our many tentacles from a (short) distance away. Since we also have the FC cat feat that lets us use Dex, tripping people with our buffed up Dex shouldn’t be a problem.

[CIDE]

Hengeyokai also qualifies at LA+0.

More problematic for me is that Morphic Weapon is completely busted based on how it's written and provides, if not infinite colossal natural weapons (as it shouldn't stack with itself), then at least one natural weapons of each type at one size category larger than your own, and that amounts to like 30 of them or something equally beyond the pale.

Regardless, getting in with no LA as a noncaster, as you see, was never the main issue.

There is no way of reading morphic weapons that allows for an infinite number of anything. You can only ever have one of any type of natural weapon. Which, according to some previous threads, is just above 100 available types. You could potentially argue that some are written as a pair which would allow for closer to 200 individual attacks. Given enough time you could have all of them at colossal. Still insanely broken but nowhere near infinite.

[Wildstag]

There is no way of reading morphic weapons that allows for an infinite number of anything. You can only ever have one of any type of natural weapon.

I have no clue where you got that idea from, because there are enough monsters with more than two claws or bites or such to invalidate that belief.

[Doctor Despair]

I have no clue where you got that idea from, because there are enough monsters with more than two claws or bites or such to invalidate that belief.

They've written their response in a confusing way. They meant to say that there's no way to have more than one natural weapon of each type created by Morphic Weapon, which has been hotly debated in the past. I'm personally in the camp that you'd get one of each type, fwiw, and even that is busted, even if it's "only" the mundane natural weapons and not special attack modes as discussed above.

[Gruftzwerg]

imho the text tells what happens if you use "morphic weapons" multiple times:


A warshaper can change morphic weapons as often as it likes, even if it is using a shapechanging technique such as the polymorph spell or the wild shape class feature that doesn't allow subsequent changes after the initial transformation.

We have a clear permission to "change" em, but no permission to stack em. The only time you get more Natural Weapons is when your selected natural weapon comes in a pair (claws) or more (specific claws, tentacles, ..). But you can't stack different natural weapons sole with morphic weapons.

[Wildstag]

They've written their response in a confusing way. They meant to say that there's no way to have more than one natural weapon of each type created by Morphic Weapon, which has been hotly debated in the past. I'm personally in the camp that you'd get one of each type, fwiw, and even that is busted, even if it's "only" the mundane natural weapons and not special attack modes as discussed above.

Ah. Even then, that's suuuuuucccchhhh a weird view. An ettin doesn't naturally have a bite attack. There is no reason an ettin-form warshaper (through MoMF) shouldn't be able to grow multiple bite attacks since it has two heads.

[Darg]

There is the natural weapon (antlers, teeth, claw), the natural weapon type (gore, bite, claw), and the natural attack (gore, bite, claw).

Using manufactured weapons you have the specific instance of the weapon you are wielding (specially engraved dagger, sword with weird design), the weapon type (dagger, longsword, etc), and the attack (dagger, longsword, etc.)


As a move action, a warshaper can grow natural weapons such as claws or fangs, allowing a natural attack that deals the appropriate amount of damage according to the size of the new form (see Table 5—1 on page 296 of the Monster Manual). These morphic weapons need not be natural weapons that the creature already possesses. For example, a warshaper polymorphed into an ettin (Large giant) could grow a claw that deals 1d6 points of damage, or horns for a gore attack that deals 1d8 points of damage.

You get one attack of the type of weapon you grow. If you grow multiple horns it is only one gore attack. You can grow multiple fangs for a bite attack. You can grow multiple claws like a cat for a single claw attack.


If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger. For example, a warshaper who used wild shape to become a dire wolf (Large animal) could grow its jaw and snout, enabling a bite attack that deals 2d6 points of damage (as a for Huge animal), not the normal 1d8.

Because the ability works to increase sizes instead of making more if you already have said weapon type, you can't make more weapons of that type and size increases from the same source don't stack.


A warshaper can change morphic weapons as often as it likes, even if it is using a shapechanging technique such as the polymorph spell or the wild shape class feature that doesn't allow subsequent changes after the initial transformation.

As Gruftzwerg says, the ability says you can change weapons but doesn't say you can create more than one. To be quite frank, the ability most likely falls under this rule:


Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. For example, a series of polymorph spells might turn a creature into a mouse, a lion, and then a snail. In this case, the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

You are changing your form every time you use the ability and thus each use of the ability makes the last irrelevant.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

As an aside, the rules refer to weapon types as "weapon" so warshaper is really the only class where the distinction is actually important in determining the effect.

[Telonius]

What about... What about Bill? Huh? What about poor Bill who is just a lumberjack but got experience from a life of slaying wolves as part of his job, and who thinks it would be great if he could strong arm more trees after he cut them down? He can't cast spells and as a lumberjack he is certainly not a druid. Also, if he became a werewolf he would lose business by being ostracized by the small closed-minded community he lives in. Why is there no alternative or work around for Bill?

Bill's a lumberjack. He'll be okay.

[Doctor Despair]

Bill's a lumberjack. He'll be okay.

What if he can't hack it as a lumberjack? What if his logging team's on the chopping block unless he can lend them a hand?

[Jervis]

What if he can't hack it as a lumberjack? What if his logging team's on the chopping block unless he can lend them a hand?

Then he just becomes a proper Barbarian and hacks trees by tossing hand axes in a whirling frenzy. Or he can be cute and become a Warblade and use mountain (axe) hammer to bypass tree hardness

[Gruftzwerg]

There is the natural weapon (antlers, teeth, claw), the natural weapon type (gore, bite, claw), and the natural attack (gore, bite, claw).

Using manufactured weapons you have the specific instance of the weapon you are wielding (specially engraved dagger, sword with weird design), the weapon type (dagger, longsword, etc), and the attack (dagger, longsword, etc.)



You get one attack of the type of weapon you grow. If you grow multiple horns it is only one gore attack. You can grow multiple fangs for a bite attack. You can grow multiple claws like a cat for a single claw attack.

Have a look again pls:

As a move action, a warshaper can grow natural weapons such as claws or fangs, allowing a natural attack that deals the appropriate amount of damage according to the size of the new form (see Table 5—1 on page 296 of the Monster Manual). The second part of the sentence refers to the fact that you do a single attack per natural weapon, an not that you sole get a single attack with the morphic weapon ability overall. The ability clearly talks plural here and allows to grow multiple weapons of the same type (if that type allows it: claws, tentacles..).






As Gruftzwerg says, the ability says you can change weapons but doesn't say you can create more than one. To be quite frank, the ability most likely falls under this rule:



You are changing your form every time you use the ability and thus each use of the ability makes the last irrelevant.

The rule you are pointing to has no effect here: The rule is for spell(effect)s only. Not for overall effects. A quick example:
A creature can have multiple immunities to energy types (e.g. fire & acid), but a caster could have only a single instance of Energy Immunity up (the last instance that still has a duration).
It's sole the ability text that is limiting morphic weapons here.

[Jack_Simth]

What if he can't hack it as a lumberjack? What if his logging team's on the chopping block unless he can lend them a hand?

He just needs to sleep all night and work all day.

[Darg]

Have a look again pls:
The second part of the sentence refers to the fact that you do a single attack per natural weapon, an not that you sole get a single attack with the morphic weapon ability overall. The ability clearly talks plural here and allows to grow multiple weapons of the same type (if that type allows it: claws, tentacles..).

I said you can grow plural weapons. You just get a single attack though. "As a move action, a warshaper can grow natural weapons such as claws or fangs, allowing a natural attack" seems pretty self explanatory. The plurality of weapons combined with the singularity of the attack would imply that you get a single attack per use of the ability.


The rule you are pointing to has no effect here: The rule is for spell(effect)s only. Not for overall effects. A quick example:
A creature can have multiple immunities to energy types (e.g. fire & acid), but a caster could have only a single instance of Energy Immunity up (the last instance that still has a duration).
It's sole the ability text that is limiting morphic weapons here.

Maybe, but it also applies to SLAs. Regardless, no DM not on a crazy train would allow it to stack with itself.

[CIDE]

I have no clue where you got that idea from, because there are enough monsters with more than two claws or bites or such to invalidate that belief.

You get one of any given type of natural weapon. It's in the description of Morphic Weapons. And just because it's a different monster doesn't mean a new type of natural weapon if both are simply listed as "claws". That's where the 100+ natural weapon thread came from to list the different types of natural attacks.


Ah. Even then, that's suuuuuucccchhhh a weird view. An ettin doesn't naturally have a bite attack. There is no reason an ettin-form warshaper (through MoMF) shouldn't be able to grow multiple bite attacks since it has two heads.

Directly from the Warshaper class entry under Morphic Weapons:


If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger. For example, a warshaper who used wild shape to become a dire wolf (Large animal) could grow its jaw and snout, enabling a bite attack that deals 2d6 points of damage (as a for Huge animal), not the normal 1d8.

If you already have a given natural weapon you can't grow another.

[Crake]

Have a look again pls:
The second part of the sentence refers to the fact that you do a single attack per natural weapon, an not that you sole get a single attack with the morphic weapon ability overall. The ability clearly talks plural here and allows to grow multiple weapons of the same type (if that type allows it: claws, tentacles..).

The plural there could be interpreted as being in regards to the variety of options available, and not the ability to do it at the same time. Consider the following statement: "This workline is capable of producing many products, but only one at a time." The plural exists in the variety of things able to be produced, despite it only being able to do one at any given moment.

[Gruftzwerg]

I said you can grow plural weapons. You just get a single attack though. "As a move action, a warshaper can grow natural weapons such as claws or fangs, allowing a natural attack" seems pretty self explanatory. The plurality of weapons combined with the singularity of the attack would imply that you get a single attack per use of the ability.
Ok, I get where you are aiming now. But imho the single attack is referring to each natural weapon grown. It only repeats the general rule that you sole get a single attack per natural weapon (and may not get iterative attacks). Imho the sentence is just shortened and should be interpreted as "allowing a natural attack (per natural weapon). I see how it is not 100% clear. But I hardly lean towards my interpretation here. Really, I don't think the intention here was to grow 10 tentacles where 9 of em are useless ^^



Maybe, but it also applies to SLAs. Regardless, no DM not on a crazy train would allow it to stack with itself.
While it wouldn't fly at my table either (since we barely play high optimized characters), at the same time a Planar Shepherd or Incantarix aren't used either (for balance reasons).
Imho it all boils down to party setup and optimization lvl.
So imho I mean, come on.. Damage Optimization is still the weakest optimization form and the easiest to beat. If you ban all kinds of optimization (as it is often at my table for RP reasons, we often play normal/weak characters), sure. But if you allow any kind of caster optimization (a T1-2 with optimized spell selection qualifies for this purpose), I don't see any balancing issues.
Assume optimized builds for a Chameleon non caster entry to Warshaper (1) and an Incantatrix (2) and a Planar Shepherd (3). Which one of these is the easiest to DM in your opinion? I would rather take the Warshaper and even ignore the RAW limit for the Morphic Weapons ability, before having to deal with an optimized Incantatrix or Planar Shepherd.



The plural there could be interpreted as being in regards to the variety of options available, and not the ability to do it at the same time. Consider the following statement: "This workline is capable of producing many products, but only one at a time." The plural exists in the variety of things able to be produced, despite it only being able to do one at any given moment.

I see what you mean, but imho the "movement action" indicates that this is the result of a single use of the ability. Imho we have a clear action cost and a clear effect. Ok, we are arguing about the interpretation of the effect, but what I mean is that the text resembles clearly the effect of a single movement action use.

[Doctor Despair]

Really, I don't think the intention here was to grow 10 tentacles where 9 of em are useless ^^

I'm 100% certain the intention was that you grow one weapon at a time, and that trying to grow a new weapon would cause you to lose the old weapon. I'm 100% certain the intention was that you don't get the size increase unless you have that type of natural weapon without using Morphic Weapon to gain it. This discussion isn't predicated on what the (assumed) intentions were though.


I would rather take the Warshaper and even ignore the RAW limit for the Morphic Weapons ability, before having to deal with an optimized Incantatrix or Planar Shepherd.

You'd rather let someone have NI attacks per round at level 5 than adjudicate an optimized caster? Initially, my reaction was incredulity, but the more I think about it, the more I think I feel the same way about it that I do about Troll Blooded.

If a high-con barbarian doesn't go down from hp damage while front-lining in an encounter, they are indistinguishable from a character with Troll Blooded/nonlethal immunity except in that they consume fewer resources to recover after encounters.

If a high-strength lion totem barbarian takes down at least one enemy/full attack, they are indistinguishable from a character with NI natural attacks.

With that said, this is somewhat of a slippery slope. Adding two levels of Bloodstorm Blade to a Warshaper with this reading instantly kills every enemy within 100 of this character's full attack (or more with Gauntlets of Extended Range or the Far Shot feat). There's not really a balance point comparison to that with Incantatrix whose greatest crime is just persisting everything. I guess the most broken reading of Planar Shepherd is somewhat comparable (to get 10 turns/round), although even that has a lower floor than killing every enemy within a few hundred feet. The wish SLAs at HD10 is obviously more broken with Planar Shepherd, to be fair.

[loky1109]

Gruftzwerg, you anyway can't bite with single fang, so this isn't surprising that you should grow fangs for one attack. Same thing with claws.

[Darg]

Gruftzwerg, you anyway can't bite with single fang, so this isn't surprising that you should grow fangs for one attack. Same thing with claws.

Cats as an example have, what, 16 claws but only have 2 claw attacks. Especially when you consider they have 4 limbs as deadly and maiming as the others. Minotaurs have 2 horns on average but only 1 gore attack.