Talic
2007-11-27, 02:03 AM
How about this, I rephrase the contingency to include "any enemy whatsoever" being within the range of the contingency, and rephrase the contingency to cast Gate whenever any of the aformentioned things come within a range equel to the biggest range of any effect or range ever to cast GATE. The Wizard gates away as soon as the Gobbos are within any range of anything (including spells that effect the whole plane) and the Wizard then Gates, and then raises his aforementioned infinite army.
Too easy to trip the contingency. If anything from a CR 1/2 to epic that doesn't like you will trip it, without you necessarily seeing or knowing what it is, who are you raising the army against. I mean really, you'll walk into a bar to get a drink, and if the barkeep's had a bad day and spits in your drink, *poof* you just gated? Also, there's a level 5 or 6 limit to a contingency spell. Gate's a 9th level spell.
Now, let's drop the spell that unmakes the wizard. Ok, it triggers the gate, but then the epic spell erases his parent's existence. The wizard was never conceived. The wizard never went to wizard school. The wizard never cast a contingency. The wizard never killed anything, because the wizard never existed. Such spells aren't limited by planar boundaries. Epic spells are funny like that, they're powerful. A contingency doesn't really trump them. Sure, the spellcraft dc to cast that one would likely be up around 5,000.... But that's easy enough to achieve.
As for the other people trying to talk about infinity like it has levels and stages, they're wrong. Infinity is infinity. That's it. There aren't other levels of it. You can't compare it to other infinities and say that they are equal or unequal, because they are neither equal or unequal. Infinity is beyond measure by definition. What does that mean? Well, if you can't even measure it, because it never ends, then it can't be equal to anything. It's like saying silly putty is mathematically equal to play doh. There's no basis for mathematical comparison. Rather than equal or non equal, it's n/a.
Hmmm, so I misremembered Maw of Chaos....turns out it has no CL max. Therefore, using Consumptive Field (via Lim Wish) and Maw of Chaos (greater metamagic rod of widen), you would be surrouned by a 30' sphere of nosave death. After absorbing the souls of several hundred trillion gobos, you could then cast a new Maw of Chaos, which would do severalhundredtrilliond6 damage, with no save. Then just fly around on your permanant phantom steed swathing death and destruction across all you pass.
The question is, what would taking that much damage actually feel like? Ouch.
Also, having a str score of 2x severalhundredtrillion + base str would be pretty impressive. The things you could do with that modifier. You could make jump checks high enough to dimensionally "leap" with no spells. You could pick up the moon, and hurl it at the earth and probably do enough damage to destroy it, and all the goblins on it. You could lim wish a Divine Insight to make massively broken skill checks with your arbitrarily high CL, including DC10^(large number) spellcraft checks needed to cast truely "epic" epic spells. And on top of that, you have a 30' aura of instant death from untyped energy damage. You have bathed in the blood of infinite goblins and become a god greater than any in existance. Boo yea!
Infinite? No. Arbitrarily large? Yes. However, it's already been pointed out, that the gobbos can level, by the terms of the challenge. pretty much, as often as they want. So, while you're doing your swath on one side of the world, infinite gobbos on infinite planes and infinite planets are becoming epic.
And now, to my dear misguided friend....
No. Once they level they stop being a level 2 goblin monk. They become a level 2 goblin monk / X. And once that happens they are no longer are part of the challenge and thus don't matter.
Not true. Just because they're no longer on the wizard's kill list, doesn't mean the wizard is not on theirs. For a wizard to achieve a kill of infinite goblins with a finite kill method, that kill method must be over an infinite time. Which means that wizard must survive every challenge he comes up against, for all time, without exception. He must survive the goblins, as well at the dragons, rival wizards, and everything else. If he doesn't, he fails. And thus, by extension, you fail.
Everything effects everything else. My removing myself from the Prime Material plane means that I won't kill some beasty that I would have if I stayed. That beasty will go on to kill another beasty and so on. Eventually one of those beasties will kill a goblin. Now that applies to every being on every plane after I remove myself from the multiverse. And given an infinite amount of time it will kill and infinite number of goblins.
But you're referring to a time that will never be reached. Thus, your goal will never be reached. Prove that you've even done it in the first place.
As I said, indirectly.
The goal is more than survival. If that's the case, then a necklace of adaptation and a permenency on an otiluke's resilient sphere, surrounding yourself, on an immortal level 20 wizard would win. Time will pass even if the wizard dies. If the wizard magically aged the goblin to death, maybe. But arguing you win because the goblins aren't immortal is fallacy. Moreso, it's kinda silly.
Hmm. Well I can solo 4 Great Wrym Red Dragons in a day and they are CR 26. If they were CR 20 I would get 6,000 XP a piece. I need at most 20,000 XP to reach level 21. So I reach level 21 within about 10 miniutes of the challenge starting. You said it took you 48 hours. So I still get epic magic first.
48 hours is arbitrary. It's by no means definate. how long would it take a goblin to kill 256 goblins if he rolled nothing less than the best rolls possible in the least time possible, whilst his opponents rolled the worst rolls possible? With infinite goblins, that WILL happen. With your wizard and the dragons, it may. You're comparing a "May happen" to a "will happen" and saying it proves your point. Flawed answer from flawed logic.
You don't understand. Once I reach level 21 I have won. I get epic spellcasting. Once I have epic spellcasting I win.
Get to level 21 as a sure thing, every time, with a 0% possibility of failure, and I'll concede that you've done so. Well, except for the fact that you're no longer able to kill monks as a level 20 wizard. Remember, to win, you as a level 20 wizard must kill infinite goblins. For you to lose, anything in the multiverse but prevent you from doing so. Using what you gave me, I showed you something that will kill him every time, eventually. But killing the wizard isn't the challenge. It's simply the way I chose to prevent him from killing goblins. Now, if you can kill infinite level 2 monk goblins with a level 20wizard who never existed, you have a good shot at pulling this off. Otherwise, you lose.
Again, flawed logic, flawed result. I'm sure you've heard of the term GIGO?
Sigh. No. Once your monks level at all they stop being the level 2 goblin monks specified in the challenge. They become irrelevant.
"Not on my wizard's kill list" does not equal "irrelevant". Man, you really seem to have a problem with simple comparison.
Because there are far to many people who put up with far to much crap.
And I seem to be one of them, judging by the quality of your arguement.
No. I just need epic spellcasting. And if you change the terms of teh challenge, which happens if you level your goblins, they I can change them for the wizard as well. And he becomes some epic godkilling wank fest.
Terms of the challenge didn't change. I simply showed you an additional threat to the wizard, in addition to time, and everything else in the multiverse. I showed you a new challenge using D&D RAW and only things guaranteed to exist by the nature of the challenge itself. I showed how this is guaranteed to happen, eventually, given the number of goblins (innumerable). However, you are trying to change the terms of the challenge. The terms are for a level 20 wizard to kill level 2 monks. If the monk is not level 2, then it doesn't add to the kill count if the wizard kills it. If the wizard is not level 20, then nothing he kills will add to the kill count. That there are other things, things which the wizard need not kill, but, being former targets of the wizard, certainly wish him dead, well, that's a completely different matter altogether. And one you now have to factor into your challenge, while only using the capabilites of a level 20 wizard. For you to fail, the wizard must die or change level (up or down) before achieving infinite goblin kills. The level 2 goblins need not kill him. Anything can and he fails. You are fighting the war of conquest. I've got a defensive battle. In order to win, I need only not lose. If you can't achieve definitive victory without altering the rules of the universe and D&D so that every goblin who achieves 3,000 xp is irrevocably and totally destroyed with no save, then well, you have failed. And you have. Failed, I mean. In spectacular fashion.
There's a FR PrC for wizards that allows you to cast in a dead magic zone. Or Perhaps my wizard just happens to have 20 levels of fighter as well. If you don't feel like staying within the spirt of teh challenge then I'm disinclined to do so either. Everything I have proposed has been within the letter of the challenge.
And there's another optional rule showing that 3 natural 20's in a row kill anything. If we're using optional rule subsets, let's use that too. As far as the challenge (wizard level 20, killing goblins, level 2), I'm within the technical bounds of it. Your terms don't list any factor preventing or addressing things killing the wizard. By RAW, I have created such a thing. By attempting to level the wizard, you do break the first of the terms of the challenge, though (wizard level 20).
Unless you want to arbitrarily change the rules on the fly so you always win. That works for every other cheater in the world, I guess... Why not you?
Ditto on the gobbos for divine rank. Self-defeating arguement.
Not really. Any overdeity can stop someone from gaining divine ranks. Since you are starting with level 2 goblin monks and I am starting with a 100,000,000 year old Elan wizard 20 with a divine rank gained while I was level 1 of 1,000,000 I get to stop your goblins from gaining or having any divine rank. My wizard has been around longer than your goblins by necessity.
Show me anything outlining universal abilities of overdeities, and maybe. And if you are saying that a level 20 wizard with a divine rank is still a level 20 wizard, then a level 2 goblin with a divine rank is still a level 2 goblin. Now, if the elan is 100,000,000 years old, and I use the first goblin, created infinitely long ago, I've got ya beat on years by... wait, an infinite amount of time. However, now we're both just making stuff up.
Epic Spell: Goblin Genocide
"Kills every goblin on every plane or demiplane of the multiverse and removes their bodies to the Far Realm"
I can cast it at level 21. I can reach level 21 first. I win.
Now you are a level 21 wizard, and you do not win. You're also horribly inefficient. All you need are the level 2 goblins. What do you have against the level 1 goblins, or the level 3 or higher goblins? That's downright inconsiderate.
Given an infinite amount of time and infinite number of level 2 goblin monks will wander into it by mistake. If it can happen it will happen if given an infinite amount of time. If the tiniest possibility exists, no matter how slight, then it will occur. And given an infinite amount of time it will occur and infinite number of times.
And all I have to show is that you don't have an infinite amount of time. Which I have.
You really don't understand infinity do you?
I seem to have a good enough grasp of a concept that's countlessly large, thanks. If you seem obliged to explain yourself again, you must feel that you've explained it inadequately the first 10 times. Yet you explain it the exact same way. Who really doesn't understand here?
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Assumptions:
1. Every Hour has 60 miniutes in it.
2. Every Minute has 60 seconds in it.
Both correct, so far. I'm with ya, buddy.
An infinite number of hours past (henceforth called X).
That means that 60X miniutes have passed.
That means that 360X secodns have passed.
Assuming you change "past" to "have passed", it could be the exact same arguement I'd use personally, if I thought my opponent was ignorant enough to believe it.
Every value above is an infinite. They can never be equal. You can never have more hours than you have miniutes and you can never have more miniutes than you have seconds.
They can never be nonequal either. They are beyond mathematical comparison. "Equal" and "Nonequal" are methods of mathematical comparison. Thus, they can never apply to infinite. True, your comparison holds up at every countable value of x. But infinity isn't countable. And that's why you're wrong. As I said before.... Math kinda breaks down around the time you reach the concept (note: NOT the number, as infinity is not a number) of infinity. Saying that infinity is a numerical variable represented by X is the assumption you have incorrect. Infinity is not. It's like saying that 360happy isn't equal to 60happy. Standard algebraic math (which is what you're using) breaks down when you exchange numbers for concepts.
Infinity does not have to equal Infinity.
Indeed, it CANNOT, any more than it can equal infinity.
Too easy to trip the contingency. If anything from a CR 1/2 to epic that doesn't like you will trip it, without you necessarily seeing or knowing what it is, who are you raising the army against. I mean really, you'll walk into a bar to get a drink, and if the barkeep's had a bad day and spits in your drink, *poof* you just gated? Also, there's a level 5 or 6 limit to a contingency spell. Gate's a 9th level spell.
Now, let's drop the spell that unmakes the wizard. Ok, it triggers the gate, but then the epic spell erases his parent's existence. The wizard was never conceived. The wizard never went to wizard school. The wizard never cast a contingency. The wizard never killed anything, because the wizard never existed. Such spells aren't limited by planar boundaries. Epic spells are funny like that, they're powerful. A contingency doesn't really trump them. Sure, the spellcraft dc to cast that one would likely be up around 5,000.... But that's easy enough to achieve.
As for the other people trying to talk about infinity like it has levels and stages, they're wrong. Infinity is infinity. That's it. There aren't other levels of it. You can't compare it to other infinities and say that they are equal or unequal, because they are neither equal or unequal. Infinity is beyond measure by definition. What does that mean? Well, if you can't even measure it, because it never ends, then it can't be equal to anything. It's like saying silly putty is mathematically equal to play doh. There's no basis for mathematical comparison. Rather than equal or non equal, it's n/a.
Hmmm, so I misremembered Maw of Chaos....turns out it has no CL max. Therefore, using Consumptive Field (via Lim Wish) and Maw of Chaos (greater metamagic rod of widen), you would be surrouned by a 30' sphere of nosave death. After absorbing the souls of several hundred trillion gobos, you could then cast a new Maw of Chaos, which would do severalhundredtrilliond6 damage, with no save. Then just fly around on your permanant phantom steed swathing death and destruction across all you pass.
The question is, what would taking that much damage actually feel like? Ouch.
Also, having a str score of 2x severalhundredtrillion + base str would be pretty impressive. The things you could do with that modifier. You could make jump checks high enough to dimensionally "leap" with no spells. You could pick up the moon, and hurl it at the earth and probably do enough damage to destroy it, and all the goblins on it. You could lim wish a Divine Insight to make massively broken skill checks with your arbitrarily high CL, including DC10^(large number) spellcraft checks needed to cast truely "epic" epic spells. And on top of that, you have a 30' aura of instant death from untyped energy damage. You have bathed in the blood of infinite goblins and become a god greater than any in existance. Boo yea!
Infinite? No. Arbitrarily large? Yes. However, it's already been pointed out, that the gobbos can level, by the terms of the challenge. pretty much, as often as they want. So, while you're doing your swath on one side of the world, infinite gobbos on infinite planes and infinite planets are becoming epic.
And now, to my dear misguided friend....
No. Once they level they stop being a level 2 goblin monk. They become a level 2 goblin monk / X. And once that happens they are no longer are part of the challenge and thus don't matter.
Not true. Just because they're no longer on the wizard's kill list, doesn't mean the wizard is not on theirs. For a wizard to achieve a kill of infinite goblins with a finite kill method, that kill method must be over an infinite time. Which means that wizard must survive every challenge he comes up against, for all time, without exception. He must survive the goblins, as well at the dragons, rival wizards, and everything else. If he doesn't, he fails. And thus, by extension, you fail.
Everything effects everything else. My removing myself from the Prime Material plane means that I won't kill some beasty that I would have if I stayed. That beasty will go on to kill another beasty and so on. Eventually one of those beasties will kill a goblin. Now that applies to every being on every plane after I remove myself from the multiverse. And given an infinite amount of time it will kill and infinite number of goblins.
But you're referring to a time that will never be reached. Thus, your goal will never be reached. Prove that you've even done it in the first place.
As I said, indirectly.
The goal is more than survival. If that's the case, then a necklace of adaptation and a permenency on an otiluke's resilient sphere, surrounding yourself, on an immortal level 20 wizard would win. Time will pass even if the wizard dies. If the wizard magically aged the goblin to death, maybe. But arguing you win because the goblins aren't immortal is fallacy. Moreso, it's kinda silly.
Hmm. Well I can solo 4 Great Wrym Red Dragons in a day and they are CR 26. If they were CR 20 I would get 6,000 XP a piece. I need at most 20,000 XP to reach level 21. So I reach level 21 within about 10 miniutes of the challenge starting. You said it took you 48 hours. So I still get epic magic first.
48 hours is arbitrary. It's by no means definate. how long would it take a goblin to kill 256 goblins if he rolled nothing less than the best rolls possible in the least time possible, whilst his opponents rolled the worst rolls possible? With infinite goblins, that WILL happen. With your wizard and the dragons, it may. You're comparing a "May happen" to a "will happen" and saying it proves your point. Flawed answer from flawed logic.
You don't understand. Once I reach level 21 I have won. I get epic spellcasting. Once I have epic spellcasting I win.
Get to level 21 as a sure thing, every time, with a 0% possibility of failure, and I'll concede that you've done so. Well, except for the fact that you're no longer able to kill monks as a level 20 wizard. Remember, to win, you as a level 20 wizard must kill infinite goblins. For you to lose, anything in the multiverse but prevent you from doing so. Using what you gave me, I showed you something that will kill him every time, eventually. But killing the wizard isn't the challenge. It's simply the way I chose to prevent him from killing goblins. Now, if you can kill infinite level 2 monk goblins with a level 20wizard who never existed, you have a good shot at pulling this off. Otherwise, you lose.
Again, flawed logic, flawed result. I'm sure you've heard of the term GIGO?
Sigh. No. Once your monks level at all they stop being the level 2 goblin monks specified in the challenge. They become irrelevant.
"Not on my wizard's kill list" does not equal "irrelevant". Man, you really seem to have a problem with simple comparison.
Because there are far to many people who put up with far to much crap.
And I seem to be one of them, judging by the quality of your arguement.
No. I just need epic spellcasting. And if you change the terms of teh challenge, which happens if you level your goblins, they I can change them for the wizard as well. And he becomes some epic godkilling wank fest.
Terms of the challenge didn't change. I simply showed you an additional threat to the wizard, in addition to time, and everything else in the multiverse. I showed you a new challenge using D&D RAW and only things guaranteed to exist by the nature of the challenge itself. I showed how this is guaranteed to happen, eventually, given the number of goblins (innumerable). However, you are trying to change the terms of the challenge. The terms are for a level 20 wizard to kill level 2 monks. If the monk is not level 2, then it doesn't add to the kill count if the wizard kills it. If the wizard is not level 20, then nothing he kills will add to the kill count. That there are other things, things which the wizard need not kill, but, being former targets of the wizard, certainly wish him dead, well, that's a completely different matter altogether. And one you now have to factor into your challenge, while only using the capabilites of a level 20 wizard. For you to fail, the wizard must die or change level (up or down) before achieving infinite goblin kills. The level 2 goblins need not kill him. Anything can and he fails. You are fighting the war of conquest. I've got a defensive battle. In order to win, I need only not lose. If you can't achieve definitive victory without altering the rules of the universe and D&D so that every goblin who achieves 3,000 xp is irrevocably and totally destroyed with no save, then well, you have failed. And you have. Failed, I mean. In spectacular fashion.
There's a FR PrC for wizards that allows you to cast in a dead magic zone. Or Perhaps my wizard just happens to have 20 levels of fighter as well. If you don't feel like staying within the spirt of teh challenge then I'm disinclined to do so either. Everything I have proposed has been within the letter of the challenge.
And there's another optional rule showing that 3 natural 20's in a row kill anything. If we're using optional rule subsets, let's use that too. As far as the challenge (wizard level 20, killing goblins, level 2), I'm within the technical bounds of it. Your terms don't list any factor preventing or addressing things killing the wizard. By RAW, I have created such a thing. By attempting to level the wizard, you do break the first of the terms of the challenge, though (wizard level 20).
Unless you want to arbitrarily change the rules on the fly so you always win. That works for every other cheater in the world, I guess... Why not you?
Ditto on the gobbos for divine rank. Self-defeating arguement.
Not really. Any overdeity can stop someone from gaining divine ranks. Since you are starting with level 2 goblin monks and I am starting with a 100,000,000 year old Elan wizard 20 with a divine rank gained while I was level 1 of 1,000,000 I get to stop your goblins from gaining or having any divine rank. My wizard has been around longer than your goblins by necessity.
Show me anything outlining universal abilities of overdeities, and maybe. And if you are saying that a level 20 wizard with a divine rank is still a level 20 wizard, then a level 2 goblin with a divine rank is still a level 2 goblin. Now, if the elan is 100,000,000 years old, and I use the first goblin, created infinitely long ago, I've got ya beat on years by... wait, an infinite amount of time. However, now we're both just making stuff up.
Epic Spell: Goblin Genocide
"Kills every goblin on every plane or demiplane of the multiverse and removes their bodies to the Far Realm"
I can cast it at level 21. I can reach level 21 first. I win.
Now you are a level 21 wizard, and you do not win. You're also horribly inefficient. All you need are the level 2 goblins. What do you have against the level 1 goblins, or the level 3 or higher goblins? That's downright inconsiderate.
Given an infinite amount of time and infinite number of level 2 goblin monks will wander into it by mistake. If it can happen it will happen if given an infinite amount of time. If the tiniest possibility exists, no matter how slight, then it will occur. And given an infinite amount of time it will occur and infinite number of times.
And all I have to show is that you don't have an infinite amount of time. Which I have.
You really don't understand infinity do you?
I seem to have a good enough grasp of a concept that's countlessly large, thanks. If you seem obliged to explain yourself again, you must feel that you've explained it inadequately the first 10 times. Yet you explain it the exact same way. Who really doesn't understand here?
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Assumptions:
1. Every Hour has 60 miniutes in it.
2. Every Minute has 60 seconds in it.
Both correct, so far. I'm with ya, buddy.
An infinite number of hours past (henceforth called X).
That means that 60X miniutes have passed.
That means that 360X secodns have passed.
Assuming you change "past" to "have passed", it could be the exact same arguement I'd use personally, if I thought my opponent was ignorant enough to believe it.
Every value above is an infinite. They can never be equal. You can never have more hours than you have miniutes and you can never have more miniutes than you have seconds.
They can never be nonequal either. They are beyond mathematical comparison. "Equal" and "Nonequal" are methods of mathematical comparison. Thus, they can never apply to infinite. True, your comparison holds up at every countable value of x. But infinity isn't countable. And that's why you're wrong. As I said before.... Math kinda breaks down around the time you reach the concept (note: NOT the number, as infinity is not a number) of infinity. Saying that infinity is a numerical variable represented by X is the assumption you have incorrect. Infinity is not. It's like saying that 360happy isn't equal to 60happy. Standard algebraic math (which is what you're using) breaks down when you exchange numbers for concepts.
Infinity does not have to equal Infinity.
Indeed, it CANNOT, any more than it can equal infinity.