Can a 20th level wizard kill infinite 2nd level monks?

[shadowdemon_lord]

My brother and I have been talking about some of the sillier aspects of D&D recently, and we got to talking about how many goblins various 20th level characters could kill. Combining a few different prestige classes, we came up with a fighter that could drop 1 million goblins a round in melee combat. (The prestige classes were the Myrmidon out of Players Guide to Arcanis and a prestige class out of Masters of the Wild that lets you get four off handed attacks). Yes I know were mixing 3.0 with 3.5, bite me. Anyway, then we got to talking about wizards. We decided to give him a permanent prismatic sphere, and assume he could kill anything that got through the prismatic sphere immediately. We had to tack on two levels of monk to give them evasion so they would survive the save for half effects on a good save. Considering that 1 in 1 million goblins will get through the sphere and then hit him before he gets a chance to act (the odds of rolling 8 20's in a row) he'll live a while. Next considering that he can use readied actions and contingency's to kill anything that does get through, he will really live a while. But can he kill infinity? To do this he must have a way of resisting all damage dealt to him, even if while he's sleeping to recuperate spells he runs out of contingencied spells to kill his enemies.

Please note stone skin only gives DR 10, where as a goblin that confirms a crit can do more then that. So even with permanent stone skin up he would die eventually.

[Solo]

Wizard conjures up enough antimatter to blow the place to smithereens.

The link for how to do it is in my sig.

[AslanCross]

I don't think any character can do infinity unless it's completely immune to the attacks. He will die, eventually. I don't think I can give a number, but the wizard himself doesn't have infinite spells, either. Unless he takes those reserve feats from Complete Mage, he will run out of spells.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Not really. The wiz can just ropetrick out of any jam, so he can refresh the spells. So yeah, he CAN kill infinity.

[ocato]

I think rope trick would allow him to retreat and refresh his spells. Now, the sphere is around you, so couldn't you fly over the goblins and drop cloudkill, obliterating them by the thousands? I'm seeing a seething mass of goblins trying to get at you like a bad zombie movie, so cloudkill would pretty much end them all.

[Kaelik]

Stoneskin can't be permanencied. Even if it could, 200 damage (or whatever) would remove it.

That said, infinite Monk 2 Goblins would never be able to get inside an MMM or reach another plane. So yes, he could kill infinite goblins because he could rest anywhere he wants, Or he could just cast Fly and then travel at two high a level for them to reach him.

Also, you fighter couldn't kill that many a round, because if he Full Attacks he can only hit the eight in his reach (or maybe more with reach.)

[Skjaldbakka]

Or he could take one of several reserve feats, and then he doesn't even have to rest. This might be a challenge if we use the lucky opponent/unlucky wizard set-up.

[TheLogman]

No, but a level 21 Wizard could. All has to do is create an Epic spell that causes a Genocide of all Goblins, forever.

Anyway, Wizards are a resource class. Eventually, according to the fact there are infinite, the Monks will eventually get the following in a row: Stunning Fist succeed, Critical hit, Confirmation, max damage, Stunning fist, Critical Hit, Confirmation, Max Damage, ect. times however many anyone wants. Infinity means everything happens, and since its only on the side of the Monks, everything that they need to happen will, EVENTUALLY!

[Azerian Kelimon]

Unless you permanence a spell that does 'nuff damage to drop a level 2 max HP'ed gobbo monk.

[Solo]

Consumptive Field?

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm.... let's see....

Grab a Carpet of Flying, and get out of reach.

Permanencied Prismatic Sphere is 11 range increments up for a Distance Heavy Crossbow used by someone with Far Shot (assuming the DM rules in favor of the Monkish mooks, that's 360 feet per range increment, so 3,960 feet up).

Spam Maximized Nightmares from INSIDE the Permanencied Prismatic Sphere.

They can't get to you, you can get to them. 10 points of real damage, will negates. Sure, they'll save 5% of the time. But you just keep spamming it. Again, and again, and again.... you have no limit on the number of times you can do this (just a per-day limit) so you can take them out, one at a time, until you die of old age (play an Elan to avoid that fate).

You can also use Summon Monster for flying critters to dive-bomb them (air elementals, running straight down (double speed when flying) with their 100 foot Fly speed get 800 feet in one round - they're on the ground in five rounds, ready to wreck havoc for fifteen more).

[Fiery Diamond]

@Kaelik: Actually, a fighter can kill more enemies than are within his reach - it's called Great Cleave. You can take a five foot step between each foe an infinite number of times (it's the only exception to "only one five foot step in one round" I can think of, actually).

On the topic of a wizard: As long as he can rest somewhere safe, via a spell, for example, then yeah, infinity ain't that tough, except he'll die of old age first.

- Fiery Diamond

[martyboy74]

On the topic of the fighter: Great Cleave (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#cleave) doesn't let you do that.

[bugsysservant]

Are full caster PrCs in? If so, the best I would do would be for an Incantrix to persist Blackfire. It can't kill infinite, but the save for a level twenty wizard should be high enough to wipe out any level two monks. And since Blackfire spreads... 24 hours of goblin death. Sweeeet...

Anyway, a level twenty wizard would never die. He just has to pick a race that doesn't age (elans, right?) and he's golden. PAO yourself into a gold dragon and pick up that gem from the Draconomicon that grants heavy fortification with no ASF. Now boost your AC till a 2nd level monk can't hit it and you can even wade into melee.

[martyboy74]

I don't think that you quite understand the concept. You have to be either flat out untouchable, or immune to all the damage that they can do. 1/20 of the goblins that attack you will hit you, 1/400 of the goblins that attack you will crit you, and, if you're playing with the 3-crit autokill varient rule, 1/8000 of the goblins that attack you will kill you.

[shadowdemon_lord]

The part about the fighters was based on a prestige class that at fifth level picks up the ability to keep taking five foot steps as long as he can keep cleaving. I hadn't thought of MMM or ropetrick. The flying carpet trick should work to. Thanks guys! You've proven that within core wizards can lay the smackdown on an infinite number of goblins with evasion :). How broken D&D is.

[bugsysservant]

I don't think that you quite understand the concept. You have to be either flat out untouchable, or immune to all the damage that they can do. 1/20 of the goblins that attack you will hit you, 1/400 of the goblins that attack you will crit you, and, if you're playing with the 3-crit autokill varient rule, 1/8000 of the goblins that attack you will kill you.

Damn, I thought heavy fortification granted immunity to natural twenties, but it instead just grants immunity to critical hits. Ah well. But still, they won't critical hit you, they'll just deal normal damage on a twenty.

[PlasticSoldier]

If heavy fortification makes you immune to Critical hits then just make him a natural lycanthrope and he can never be hurt by them. Using the LA buyoff rules you could have got rid off its pesky LA.

[Sleet]

Not if each monk is equipped with a version of Hamlet he wants the wizard to proofread.









Oh, wait, that's 2nd level monkeys. Never mind.

[Jack_Simth]

I don't think that you quite understand the concept. You have to be either flat out untouchable, or immune to all the damage that they can do. 1/20 of the goblins that attack you will hit you, 1/400 of the goblins that attack you will crit you, and, if you're playing with the 3-crit autokill varient rule, 1/8000 of the goblins that attack you will kill you.

Yep - and even without the 3-crit autokill, there's going to be "lucky streaks" eventually where the stars align and the monkish mooks roll 300 nat-20's in a row, resulting in a storm of Monks slamming through your defenses and pummeling you into the dirt. The Mansion or Trick won't help with this aspect. You have to arrange things so they don't get the opportunity to make a roll that actually matters (hence being 11 range increments up for an absurdly long-ranged weapon - max is 10 range increments for a projectile weapon, you see.... lets just hope they don't come equipped with Potions of Fly or similar....)

[tyckspoon]

Spend 10 minutes casting a Symbol of Insanity. Defense spells and natural ranks in Concentration should prevent the Wizard from being forcibly interrupted by any goblins that make it through the Sphere to bother him. Spend another 2 rounds making it Permanent. Now every goblin within 60 feet of the Wizard is permanently under the effects of confusion, along with every goblin that moves within 60 feet of the symbol for the next 10 minutes. After another ten minute recharge period, it repeats. Now the infinite goblin hordes are variously doing nothing, running away, or attacking each other (keep in mind that even a creature that rolls 'act normally' has to attack back if another creature attacks it). I don't know if the spell effect can actually get through the prismatic sphere, however; if it doesn't, it'll just fry the brain of any goblin that gets through. A symbol of Death would be a more expedient option in that case.

Edit: Oh, hey. When doing the math for the number of natural 20s needed, keep in mind that Prismatic walls and spheres auto-blind any creature with less than 8HD that stands within 20 feet. The wizard gets total concealment from any goblin that survives running through the Sphere, and he doesn't even have to cast extra spells for it.

[TheLogman]

But, spoon, there are Infinite of them, which means an infinite of the infinite of them are fine, and are coming at you. Now, out of that infinite monks, infinite of them will hit you with stunning fist, while infinite of them will hit you with Crits. You will fail your save an infinite number of times.

EDIT: There are Infinite of them, so even if they can't see you, they will get you. Your spells only last so long, and in an infinite amount of time, an infinite number will get a Stunning Fist in, and eventually, that D20 will stop showing you love, and you will be stunned. Then, they will hit you an infinite number of time with an infinite number of Crits. This may not happen immediately, or cleanly, but it WILL happen, simply because that is how Infinity works.

[tyckspoon]

But there is a distinctly finite amount of space around the wizard, bounded by the Prismatic Sphere. The goblins first have to get into it before they can begin to do anything against the wizard. It should be possible to create a situation that ensures that no goblins will survive inside the Sphere long enough to actually make the infinite amount of rolls needed to ensure they kill the wizard.

Edit: A permanent spell is just as infinite as the goblins. Make a few permanency'd Symbols. Permanency a Stinking Cloud and pump the wizard's Fort save or otherwise make him immune to nausea. Reduce the available space by using Walls of Iron and/or Stone- the Wizard can build himself a safe zone inside the Sphere that only he can fit in, if he just wants to stand there for all eternity.

[TheOOB]

Infinite of anything is impossible, eventually they will find some way to kill you, however a 20th level anything can kill an arbitrarily large number of 2nd level anything assuming they have good choices in weapons and magic items.

[TheLogman]

Last Post I'm making on the Subject (I Hope). If you surround yourself in Walls of Stone/Iron, they will deal enough damage to break them. A Human is not perfect. At some point the Wizard or his strategy will let in 1 monk. In fact, this will happen exactly infinite times. In those infinite times, the monks will make an infinite number of stunning fist attempts, an infinite number of which will succeed. Wizards are strong, but they are not perfect, infinite is, as it encloses all possibilities, including an infinite of which are perfect.

That, or the god of monks will see their terrible sacrifice, and turn them into Golems. Golems are cool.

[Fishy]

Warforged wizard, permanent Forcecage, Eyes of Petrification.

Level 2 mooks have literally no way whatsoever to break through a wall of force, so while you're not going anywhere, you can sit in your invisible box and make gaze attacks all day, for the rest of the lifetime of the universe. Add Permanent Prismatic Sphere to taste.

[Mr. Diggs]

You all are thinking entirely too small. i say the wizard would only last one round, for the simple fact that an infinite number goblins wouldn’t all be standing, they would fill every single space imaginable, stacked on top of each other out all the way into space, since we are talking infinite no matter where you go there would be an infinite number of goblins, you cant get away from infinite, so what would happen is this. The level 20 warrior would die of crushing damage from the weight of an infinite number goblins fall on top of him doesn’t matter if they are dead or alive, they will be on top of you. So ya. No combat would happen at all, the goblins would crush them selves and the wizard and the rest would suffocate in the cold vacuum of space. Gobbos win, sort of.

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually, there being an infinite number of monks doesn't matter. Only 11 can be inside the prismatic sphere at any given time. And arrows can't go through the sphere. So at most you have 11 mooks to deal with at any given time.


Now to take out all the mooks.

Race: Elan
Items needed:Boots of Levitation (unless you have some other way to hover forever)
Immovable Rod
Large Piece of Paper
Rope


Step 1: Cast Prismatic Sphere
Step 2: Cast Permanency on said Prismatic Sphere
Step 3: Cast a Permanent Teleportation Circle in every empty square inside the sphere (12) castings total. Every TC should be set to teleport over an active volcano or ocean, preferably from several hundred feet up.
Step 4: Levitate at the top of the sphere
Step 5: Activate the Immovable Rod.
Step 6: Cast Levitate on yourself
Step 7: Cast Symbol of Death on the paper and then make it permanent.
Repeat until you have the paper filled up with permanent symbols (of whatever type you want).
Step 8: Hang paper from rod
Step 9: Cast Magnificent Mansion and go inside
Repeat step 9 for all eternity.

There. It is actually impossible for you to die by RAW no matter how many level 2 mooks charge at you.

It takes 8 natural 20's for 1 to get through the Prismatic Sphere. It is then automatically teleported above an ocean, or perhaps to the moon (no save). And if some how the mook manages to get past that he has to contend with the Symbols of Death, which I have staggered so that 1 is always active.

[Fiery Diamond]

Oh, good grief.

Yes, while if they have even an infinitesimal chance of hitting you, you will, because of the way infinity works, eventually die, the reason you will not die as a level 20 wizard versus infinite level 2 monks is that they will have a 0% chance of hitting you - just stay out of their range! It isn't allowed to use a ranged weapon at more than 10x the range increment, so if you stay outside of that range you can rain death with impunity, you just need to make sure you have a safe way of sleeping (which, for a level 20 wizard, shouldn't be hard.) Of course, unless you are a race that doesn't die of old age, you will die of old age before killing an infinite number of monks, since it would take infinitely long. And, as well, this is assuming that there exist an infinite number of monks (but that's a different issue).

edit: @the person two posts above me - because the universe is infinitely large, what you state is not necessarily the case. For example, I could say that all monks must be standing on the ground of some planet in the material or other plane, and that each must occupy a 5ft square all to himself. Since there could hypothetically be an infinite number of such spaces, all monks can fulfill those requirements, thus not crushing the wizard. (yay for the whole "there are half as many even numbers as whole numbers, but there are an infinite number of both" concept)

[tyckspoon]

Last Post I'm making on the Subject (I Hope). If you surround yourself in Walls of Stone/Iron, they will deal enough damage to break them. A Human is not perfect. At some point the Wizard or his strategy will let in 1 monk. In fact, this will happen exactly infinite times. In those infinite times, the monks will make an infinite number of stunning fist attempts, an infinite number of which will succeed. Wizards are strong, but they are not perfect, infinite is, as it encloses all possibilities, including an infinite of which are perfect.

That, or the god of monks will see their terrible sacrifice, and turn them into Golems. Golems are cool.

You know, if you're going to invoke absolute infinites, then the monks also infinitely fail to hit the wizard's AC, infinitely blow the miss chance roll, and infinitely roll too low to break whatever DR the wizard has or damage the walls he's using to keep himself safe (and Fishy made me go and look- Forcecage isn't a valid target for Permanency, but Forcewall is. If the wizard is willing to spend the xp, four Permanent Forcewalls keep him safe for eternity.) All of those events are at least as possible as the monks successfully killing the Wizard.

[Gungnir]

Flying won't save you if you want to keep killing the gobbos. Eventually their bodies will stack high enough for them to get you.

[Fiery Diamond]

Ah, but then you just fly higher!:smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Tippy]

Flying won't save you if you want to keep killing the gobbos. Eventually their bodies will stack high enough for them to get you.

That's why my way works best. Their bodies teleport away if they aren't destroyed by the prismatic sphere.

[tyckspoon]

Hah.

hmm.. actually, unless you start making larger alterations away from the standard MM goblin beyond the class levels, the goblin monks cannot break a Wall of Iron. It has hardness 10. The goblins are Small, which means.. smaller damage dice. The standard Goblin stat array also has no Strength bonus. The biggest weapon on the Monk's proficiency list is a Quarterstaff: small ones do 1d4/1d4. A level 2 Small monk's unarmed strike does 1d4. Both are x2 crits, so the greatest damage the goblin monk can hope to roll on a perfect crit is 8. Iron walls take no damage at all. You could give 'em less useless weapons, but that's not very monklike.

[Firestar27]

He can't fight them off for infinity. He will die of OLD AGE.

[MobiusKlein]

... The biggest weapon on the Monk's proficiency list is a Quarterstaff: ....You could give 'em less useless weapons, but that's not very monklike.

It's not monklike to beat your head against a wall either. It's not hard to hit the side of a wall, so picking up a pick won't break any laws. They can take the minus. Or Power Attack.

[Gralamin]

He can't fight them off for infinity. He will die of OLD AGE.

Not With Emperor Tippy's Method. Elan's live forever.

[Yahzi]

You know, if you're going to invoke absolute infinites, then the monks also infinitely fail to hit the wizard's AC, infinitely blow the miss chance roll, and infinitely roll too low to break whatever DR the wizard has or damage the walls he's using to keep himself safe
True, but it doesn't matter.

The monks can die an near-infinite amount of times, and nobody cares. But the wizard can only die once. After that, you stop counting the infinities.

At least once at some point in the infinities, a sufficient number of goblins will make their saves, stuns, and crits. And then you stop counting. Nothing that happens after that matters. At that point, there will be many dead goblins, but there will not be an infinite number of dead goblins. Ergo, a wizard can't kill an infinite number of goblins.

On the other hand, the 20th lvl wizard can easily kill all of the goblins, since all game worlds contain merely a finite number of goblins. Really, that should be good enough for anybody.

:smallbiggrin:

[The_Snark]

Actually... there seems to be a problem with staying in a Prismatic Sphere for all eternity (or a Forcecage, or Walls of Force).


Stops poisons, gases, and petrification.
Deals 80 points of electricity damage (Reflex half).

Stops gases?

Air?

Suffocation?

Of course, this doesn't really solve the problem, because the wizard can simply grab a magic item (Necklace of Adaptation or the ioun stone), but it's an interesting flaw in the permanent Prismatic Sphere spell.

[Tokiko Mima]

The wizard will *never* be able to kill an infinite number of anything. Infinity is more vast than you can really imagine. If the wizard killed a billion trillion quadrillion monks, even entire universes of infinite monks on a daily basis, he would never ever finish killing them all. Time itself would come to the end, and the wizard would not have made any significant progress on his infinite monk killing spree. Infinity is BIG.

So while the intelligently played wizard is unlikely to lose (except to accident or old age if not immortal), the wizard also cannot ever win.

[skywalker]

The part about the fighters was based on a prestige class that at fifth level picks up the ability to keep taking five foot steps as long as he can keep cleaving.

I believe this is a feat called "supreme cleave" and I'm pretty sure it's in sword & fist. But I can't find where/whether it was updated to 3.5. :smallfrown:

[Tokiko Mima]

I believe this is a feat called "supreme cleave" and I'm pretty sure it's in sword & fist. But I can't find where/whether it was updated to 3.5. :smallfrown:

Supreme Cleave is a 2nd level class feature of Frenzied Berserker, but it's limited to one use a round in 3.5. You can look it up in Complete Warrior.

[deadseashoals]

The wizard will *never* be able to kill an infinite number of anything. Infinity is more vast than you can really imagine. If the wizard killed a billion trillion quadrillion monks, even entire universes of infinite monks on a daily basis, he would never ever finish killing them all. Time itself would come to the end, and the wizard would not have made any significant progress on his infinite monk killing spree. Infinity is BIG.

So while the intelligently played wizard is unlikely to lose (except to accident or old age if not immortal), the wizard also cannot ever win.

The wizard can't win the challenge, but you can prove that he would be able to continue to kill monks for an indefinite amount of time without harm coming to him, even against the infinite swarm of monks.

I don't think a lot of the posters are getting the whole infinity thing, really. To reframe the question in the vein of another recent post - can a 20th level wizard continue to defeat an unending stream of monks, in the freak event that he rolls nothing but natural 1s and minimum damage dice, and the monks roll nothing but natural 20s, maximum damage dice, 100% on concealment checks, and always attack the right square while blinded (etc)? Because in an infinite scenario, that will come up, and the reign of 20s and 1s will last an indefinitely long amount of time.

There may be a way, but I haven't seen it in this thread yet.

[shadowdemon_lord]

I just thought of another way. Could Cloudkill be persisted inside of the sphere? The wizard could levitate above the cloudkill and cast an infinite stream of MMM's, seeing as how they last for forty hours each. The wizard could recast the MMM's from inside of his old MMM so as to never have to leave them. Hell, considering all his opponents are blind, he could just levitate up their for all eternity. The mooks would die without a save upon contact with the cloudkill, the sphere would protect against all attacks from outside (and make it so that no monks would be able to pinpoint his location inside the sphere and make a jump attack and hit him that way).

Also yes, Deadseashoals version of the challenge was really what I had in mind when I thought of it.

[Karsh]

What are you talking about? Tippy's method accomplishes it nicely.

Conversely, the Wizard can:

Be an Elan
Cast Permanent Image of himself casting cloudkill.
Fly 11 range increments into the air and cast Plane Shift to the Ethereal Plane.
Cast Genesis
Hide within private demiplane for eternity, emerging every day to cloudkill an arbitrarily large number of goblins and then expending all his remaining spell slots Chained Disintegrating their corpses.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

can a 20th level wizard continue to defeat an unending stream of monks, in the freak event that he rolls nothing but natural 1s and minimum damage dice, and the monks roll nothing but natural 20s, maximum damage dice, 100% on concealment checks, and always attack the right square while blinded (etc)? Because in an infinite scenario, that will come up, and the reign of 20s and 1s will last an indefinitely long amount of time.


Actually, yes, he can. Elan (or another unaging race) with Innate Spell: Magic Missile. Permanently PAO into something with flying and a bonus to spot checks, get an ioun stone that boosts CL.

Now he can fly around and shoot magic missiles at the goblin monks for all eternity simply flying at 310 ft up. They can't reach him even with ranged weapons so he can keep killing them for all eternity.

[Destro_Yersul]

It's very easy. You don't even have to leave the ground.

Step 1: Be a lich
Step 2: kill goblins

None of those second level monks have any way of overcoming the lich's damage reduction. The lich, therefore, wins.

[Tokiko Mima]

It's very easy. You don't even have to leave the ground.

Step 1: Be a lich
Step 2: kill goblins

None of those second level monks have any way of overcoming the lich's damage reduction. The lich, therefore, wins.

Couldn't they grapple you enmasse and pour alchemists fire and acid on you? I don't think that there's a limit to how many monks could join in a grapple... seems rather dangerous for a lich.

What about if the infinite Monks tried to talk the wizard into letting them kill him? Diplomacy is a Monk skill after all, and one of the monks might have optimized his/her Diplomacy to beat a DC 150, and turn a hostile wizard into a fanatical follower. So the Wizard would need to be mindblanked at all times, just in case.

[Yeril]

Im gonner say the monks win in the 1st round.

Roll initiative.

Since there are Infinite monks, an infinite amount of them win initiative, the wizard gets attacked with infinite shuriken before he can even cast a single spell, and receives an infinite amount of critical hits for infinityd2+infinity damage.

Wizard's soul is vaporised.

Now, if the wizard gets pre-battle preparation it go's somthing like this.

Since there are Infinite monks, an infinte amount of tem win initiative, the wizard gets blasted with Anti-magic field (Since infinite amount of monks cross classed UMD and they all put their infinite starting gold together to buy infinite scrolls) and then, the wizard gets attacked with infinite shuriken before he can even cast a single spell, and receives an infinite amount of critical hits for infintyd2+infinity damage.

your wizard is defeated.

[Armads]

Since there are Infinite monks, an infinite amount of them win initiative, the wizard gets attacked with infinite shuriken before he can even cast a single spell, and receives an infinite amount of critical hits for infinityd2+infinity damage.


Unless the wizard is 85ft away, where the monks can only move 30ft (and shruiken have a max range of 50ft). Wind Wall also exists, and the wizard can do his silly "I hide in my MMM all day long, nyaah!" technique.



Since there are Infinite monks, an infinite amount of them win initiative, the wizard gets blasted with Anti-magic field (Since infinite amount of monks cross classed UMD and they all put their infinite starting gold together to buy infinite scrolls) and then, the wizard gets attacked with infinite shuriken before he can even cast a single spell, and receives an infinite amount of critical hits for infinityd2+infinity damage.


Eh, this could work.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The part about the fighters was based on a prestige class that at fifth level picks up the ability to keep taking five foot steps as long as he can keep cleaving.

Ah yes, Supreme Cleave. The 3.5 version of that ability can only be used once per round. The 3.0 also has that limitation it's just really badly worded.

[Armads]

The Knight Protector's version of Supreme Cleave doesn't have that limitation.

[mostlyharmful]

Foresight, Celerity and MMM, the wizard always gets away on the first round.

Eventually the wizard, hiding in his MMM and using astral projection to wipe out arbitrarily large numbers of Monks, kills enough monks to count it as a CR appropriate encounter. He does this a few times and levels to 21, he builds an epic spell of "slay all Goblins" with no range, saving throw, spell resistance or maximum target number, it affects all planes and cannot be prevented. Then he activates his cheesetastic gated solars loop until he has enough bound spellcasters to fuel this massive spell. He casts said spell. He thanks the solars for their time in wiping out the infinate Goblin Menace, dismisses them and has a nice cup of tea.:smalltongue:

A wiz20 can kill an arbitrarily vast number of level2 monks without the slightest risk to themselves. It takes a wiz21 to kill an infinate amount.

[geek_2049]

Greater rod of permanancy and Iron Body=immune to crits, stunning, poison, deafness, suffocation, lightning and 1/2 dmg from fire and acid, and dr 15/adamantine. Only catch is there is a 50% chance of spell failure.

Unless there has been errata, prismatic sphere is immovable, and hence only good for defense. .

[merrja666]

The way a wizard could kill infinite goblin monks (or at least a lot of them) is to use prismatic wall instead of prismatic sphere. Prismatic Wall - Permanancy - Prismatic Wall - Permanancy - ad nauseam. Add in some Symbols of Death + Permanacy and you have a nasty combo. Of course, there can only be a finite number of goblins that go through the wall each day - if you craft a 5' by 5' by 5' box, (floor not included, for obvious reasons), then only 4 (or 5, if one comes through the roof, but lets keep it at 4) will come through every 6 seconds. As there are 86,400 seconds in a day, then only 365,400 goblins can come through. They will need a 20 to get through the wall, and if we have, say, 50 walls on each side (stacked together), then there is a 0.0142857% chance of one getting through. In that case, only 52.2 goblins will get through the walls, and 1 or 2 Symbols of Death will kill them all.

Therefore, the wizard wins.

[Renx]

Can a 20th level wizard kill infinite 2nd level monks?

If he knows they're coming, yes. I'll be going with the SRD on this, since I don't have the books on me and it'll be pretty much solid then ;)

First off, I'm assuming the monks will have no wealth, since if they have any kind of wealth at all, they can just pool it and buy a Sphere of Annihilation, Wands of Disjunction, or pick any high-level artifact, or service of class-leveled guy and kill the wizard. This will reduce the monks to their class skills, plus 2 feats. Second, no items for the wizard, either. Just his spellbook.

Step 1: Becoming unreachable. If they can reach you, an infinite amount of goblin monks will kill anyone eventually.

Option 1: Flying. A simple permanencied Fly will do. Persistent metamagic isn't in the SRD, so that's out. Just fly high enough to be 100% unreachable. Complication: When you rest, you must have a way of checking that the goblins don't form a living mountain and climb to where you'll appear.

Option 2: Enough Walls of Force to completely surround the wizard (permanencied, of course). Complication: must have spells that work through the Walls and don't bring them down.

Option 3: Combine 1 and 2. Just make the safe area, and Dimension Door/Teleport in/out. Simple, effective and unbreakable by level 2 monks.

Step 2: Resting. If you don't rest, you'll run out of spells. 'nuff said. Anything inside the Walls is safe, so just a Tiny Hut will suffice to keep out sounds. Rope Trick or Plane Shift works, too.

Step 3: Food. This is a real problem for a wizard, especially with no items. A Limited Wish, however, is able to "Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school." (note: NOT "arcane spell" or "sorcerer/wizard spell") This includes Create Food and Water (clr 3). Problem solved.

Step 4: Getting rid of the bodies. This is surprisingly important with an infinite amount of enemies. Enough acid-based spells (Acid Fog, Melf's Acid Arrow, Acid Splash) will suffice. Or use a chain: Wall of Stone, Rock to Mud (on the wall), Mud to Rock (on the now-sunk remains and possibly any monks in the area), Disintegrate.

Step 5: Kill goblins. I'll skip this as negligible.

Basically you could do this with a level 15 wizard (Limited Wish)

[Keld Denar]

I like the idea that I posted in another thread (the DMM persisted one). Cast wish to replicate a cleric spell, and get Greater Consumptive Field. Cast permanancy. Anything with 9 hp or less is automatically killed around you. Now cast Maw of Chaos, which surrounds you with a field of automatic damage (20d6 at CL20). Any creature that approaches you is delt damage by the Maw (average 70) and then its soul is sucked up by the consumptive field to fuel your caster level. Since there are an infinite number of goblins monks, meander around until your caster level is arbitrarily high. High enough that your CL is equal to 1/2 of the circumferance of the world at its widest point. Then gain a couple more CLs just for good measure.

Now cast an Snowcasting-Flash Frost-Energy Sub Electric-Born of Three Thunders-Explosive Locate City(a 4th level spell), excluding yourself with Extraordinary Spell Aim. The radius of Locate City is equal to your CL, which is over 1/2 the circumference of the world at its widest point. That means anything that fails the save for 1/2 would be knocked back to the furthest radius of the spell, potential around the world. I'm not even gonna calculate the damage. Repeat using all unused spell slots of level 4 and up that aren't used to cast the above needed spells. Rest and repeat as needed. CL never goes down because GCF is permanant.

I think you just killed all the goblins in the world, not just the monks. You also killed just about everything else too.

If you really wanted, you could cast Owl's Insight, and use the ability Pun-Pun used to swap your now infinite wisdom with your not-so-infinite Inteligence, thus giving you an infinite save DC on Locate City so that creatures can only save on a nat 20. 20 or so castings should statistically level the entire planet, and if not, that's what scry is for.

Too bad supreme cleave doesn't work. An earth elemental monolith would do some pretty impressive damage. Use Sonorous Hum so you don't have to concentrate, and then cast Heroics to grant it Supreme Cleave as a fighter bonus feat. With it's space and reach, and damage, it would be able to cleave and move its way across the world, swathing through everything in its way, until it rolled a 1. The gobo's could pierce its DR 15/-, so it would continue its rampage every round after that, for an infinite number of rounds, due to the above consumptive field trick.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually, I think what they meant was MIGHTY cleave, not supreme.

[Duke of URL]

Step 3: Food. This is a real problem for a wizard, especially with no items. A Limited Wish, however, is able to "Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school." (note: NOT "arcane spell" or "sorcerer/wizard spell") This includes Create Food and Water (clr 3). Problem solved.

Ring of Sustenance (2,500 GP). You don't need to blow XP on limited wish. It also overcomes 6 hours per day of non-goblin-killing time.

Of course, then you need some essentially infinite way to kill goblins when you run out of spells. Since we're talking SRD only, that rules out a 1-level dip into Warlock for unlimited Eldritch Blast + Eldritch Spear (1d6 ranged touch at 250' range) or Innate Spell. Therefore, we go to the custom magic item department... doing it on the cheap means creating a wondrous item that can perform a 0th level spell on command (say, acid splash), an unlimited times per day. By the item creation guidelines, that's:


2,000 GP x spell level x caster level

Since the minimum caster level for Craft Wondrous Item is 3, and a 0th level spell is calculated as a 0.5th level spell, that's 3,000 for an item of endless acid splash spells, once per round.

Total spent: 5,500 GP, which should fit any 20th-level Wizard's budget.

Edit: Of course, if I had bothered to read that part about no items... Wish should be able to be used to get such inexpensive items. Then you only pay the XP cost once. Using Limited Wish, you'll eventually run out of XP, since 2nd-level goblin monks give you no XP.

[Telonius]

EDIT: Nevermind, already been thought of. Darn that second page of replies ...

[Setra]

A Wizard cannot kill infinite monks, a Wizard can kill them infinitely but he cannot kill an infinite number.

Incidentally, what about the items the monks could buy? Surely with infinite money they could buy some broken item that exists somewhere that could win it for them.. if not one item then two?

What about a Candle of Invocation? Could they use that? :smallconfused:

[Indon]

On the topic of the fighter: Great Cleave (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#cleave) doesn't let you do that.

If I recall, the 3.0 edition version of the feat had no such provision, and it was already noted that the character was obtained by mixing the versions.

As for our Wizard friend, we need some way to remove the ability of the goblins to make natural 20 saving throws - perhaps some kind of Luck Magic will do it?

[Reinboom]

A Wizard cannot kill infinite monks, a Wizard can kill them infinitely but he cannot kill an infinite number.

This is somewhat wrong.
If the wizard could live infinitely, and kills monks steadily over an infinite amount of time, the wizard could kill an infinite amount of monks.
The wizard just hasn't killed ALL the monks. There's still an infinite amount left. But it has killed an infinite number of them.

===
Edit:
And even in an infinite time of infinite killing, if there was an improbable way for the wizard to lose over an infinite amount of time, if the infinite amount of time has been occurring over an infinite amount of deaths and it takes a 1 in infinite chance for the wizard's death to occur. Then even when it does, an infinite has occurred still, and although there are still an infinite number of monks living, there are yet infinite number of dead monks. The wizard still has achieved the goal.

[Indon]

Technically, no.

The Wizard never kills an infinite number of monks. The number of monks he kills approaches infinity as the time he spends killing them approaches infinity.

But that's good enough for our purposes, I imagine.

[Keld Denar]

This is somewhat wrong.
If the wizard could live infinitely, and kills monks steadily over an infinite amount of time, the wizard could kill an infinite amount of monks.
The wizard just hasn't killed ALL the monks. There's still an infinite amount left. But it has killed an infinite number of them.

but....if the wizard has killed an infinite number, but has an infinite number left to kill, how many monks are there? 2*infinite is infinite???

:headassplodes:

EDIT: Ah, calculus, the bane of all monks. Way to go!

[Setra]

What happens when you bring the concept of infinity into a discussion about fantasy anyways?

Do like.. Mermaids die?

[Reinboom]

Technically, no.

The Wizard never kills an infinite number of monks. The number of monks he kills approaches infinity as the time he spends killing them approaches infinity.

But that's good enough for our purposes, I imagine.

I wasn't viewing over a course of time, this is viewing looking at it from a completely hypothetical and impossible view of "if an infinite amount of time passed".
Given, if it was while time was still progressing then yes, as it approaches infinite.
Which is good enough.
*edit*
reread how I wrote it. Yes, you're right.

Aside- this would be rather hilarious to see.
"You enter the plain of the infinitely dying monks."
"Real deep. *snickers*"
"No, literally, a wizard did it."

[Setra]

"No, literally, a wizard did it."
Wouldn't it be "A wizard is doing it"..?

[Indon]

Wouldn't it be "A wizard is doing it"..?

A Wizard did it, a Wizard is doing it, a Wizard shall do it forevermore, Amen.

[GoC]

Since there are Infinite monks, an infinite amount of them win initiative, the wizard gets attacked with infinite shuriken before he can even cast a single spell, and receives an infinite amount of critical hits for infinityd2+infinity damage.
My, I was unaware shuriken had infinite range.:smallannoyed:


Since there are Infinite monks, an infinte amount of tem win initiative, the wizard gets blasted with Anti-magic field (Since infinite amount of monks cross classed UMD and they all put their infinite starting gold together to buy infinite scrolls) and then, the wizard gets attacked with infinite shuriken before he can even cast a single spell, and receives an infinite amount of critical hits for infintyd2+infinity damage.

See above.

Let's see how many of these monks can attack per round:
Forcecage with bars and Windwall...
None.
The wizard sits in his forcecage with the windwall blocking ranged attacks and uses the innate spell (magic missile) feat to kill for all eternity (he's an Elan).

Any problems with this?

[Arakune]

You guys bought the "wizard did it" to a entirely new level :smalleek:

[JaxGaret]

Im gonner say the monks win in the 1st round.

Roll initiative.

Since there are Infinite monks, an infinite amount of them win initiative, the wizard gets attacked with infinite shuriken before he can even cast a single spell, and receives an infinite amount of critical hits for infinityd2+infinity damage.

Wizard's soul is vaporised.

Now, if the wizard gets pre-battle preparation it go's somthing like this.

Since there are Infinite monks, an infinte amount of tem win initiative, the wizard gets blasted with Anti-magic field (Since infinite amount of monks cross classed UMD and they all put their infinite starting gold together to buy infinite scrolls) and then, the wizard gets attacked with infinite shuriken before he can even cast a single spell, and receives an infinite amount of critical hits for infintyd2+infinity damage.

your wizard is defeated.

Foresight + Celerity + Timestop.

Next?

[hewhosaysfish]

1) The wizard does not need Wishes or a Ring of Sustenance to feed himself. MMM will let him stuff himself silly.

2) The goblins don't need to be dead for their comrades to climb on them up to a flying wizard. GOBLIN PYRAMID!

3) Most importantly, these are monks, not ninjas. When gathered in large numbers, they are not required by convention to rush at the enemy on-at-a-time and get slaughtered. They can be played intelligently...

You are a goblin. Grab 4722366482869645213695 your friends. This leaves an infinite number to attack the wizard and thus distract him. Even if he does notice and breaks up your party, there can (and undoubtably will) be infinitely more like it. He can't stop them all.

You are guaranteed Lawful and you are prepared to fight to the death to defeat this guy. So do so! Pair up and fight to the death. The survivors pair up and fight also. And again!
Now you have 590295810358705651712 goblins left and (having started at level 2 and single-handedly defeat 3 CR 2 challenges, they are all now level 3.
Continue until only one goblin is left.
He has defeated 72 of his fellows and, if my approximations are accurate, he has gained 22-and-a-bit levels (call it 21) allowing them to have at least one epic level in whatever class they have chosen to advance.
And there are potentially an infinite number of these super-goblins so they can gang up on this cocky wizard. Or fight each other for more "power levelling"; level 23 is just the beginning.

[JaxGaret]

Another possible way to deal with the Monks is Plane Shift (Ethereal) + Transdimensional Spell.

But that depends on the Monk's having no way to get to the Ethereal Plane, which is possibly fallible.

[mostlyharmful]

What happens when you bring the concept of infinity into a discussion about fantasy anyways?

Do like.. Mermaids die?

Any talk of Pun-Pun and the fishgirl gets it....:smallbiggrin:

taking pointlessness to new and intriguing extemes.

[Emperor Demonking]

Foresight + Celerity + Timestop.

Next?

He said the first one was if the wizard had no time to prepare, that isn't no time to prepare.

If both groups have money, the monks will win. If they don't the wizard can't use forcecage.

[Reinboom]

He said the first one was if the wizard had no time to prepare, that isn't no time to prepare.

If both groups have money, the monks will win. If they don't the wizard can't use forcecage.

foresight isn't forcecage.
The combo presented above is only to ensure the wizard goes first (and does whatever it needs to do)

[Emperor Demonking]

What's the odds of the wizard going first, especially if the monks use some of that infinate money to improve thier dex scores. (what happens if two groups have the same inititive)

The forcecage trick was a different trick.

[Techonce]

Various things:

1. Permenancied Prismatic Sphere has less utility that one would think. It can't move, your can't see or cast spell through the sphere, in either direction.

2. MMM kind of breaks things, since the encounter is kind of over at that point.

3. The wizard will never receive any XP from the monks, a large number of them may have a high EL, but their CR is stil only 2.

4. Once a Monk gets a successful stunning fist, things can go downhill fast for the Wiz. Stun him and then chuck his butt out of the sphere!

5. Forcecage isn't a save all. In the barred version there are gaps and the both the wizard and monks can attack through it. IN the solid version, attacks and spells are blocked.

[Reinboom]

What's the odds of the wizard going first, especially if the monks use some of that infinate money to improve thier dex scores. (what happens if two groups have the same inititive)

The forcecage trick was a different trick.

100%.
Foresight + Celerity + Timestop = Effectively go first, even if the wizard has 1 dex, rolled a 1, all monks rolled 20s, and had 400 dex a piece.


For how to work with this afterwards, read tippy's post, and get creative.

[Emperor Demonking]

Which is him having prepared for it, when it was mentioned that the trick worked if the wizard wasn't prepared.:smallfurious:

[Reinboom]

Which is him having prepared for it, when it was mentioned that the trick worked if the wizard wasn't prepared.:smallsmile:

*fixed. Anger is bad. It leads to pointless bickering.
Yeh, I misread. Tis my issue.

Then on the subject of no prepare time + infinite monks issue.

The monks have no prepare then as well, I'd imagine. Pooling their money = preparation time.

However, yes, there will be an infinite number of monks that could win initiative, however, most of these monks would never be able to reach the wizard. The monks around the wizard that exceed initiative, however, that's a different problem.
After this, it depends on the build of the wizard and on the wizard's initiative roll. I would imagine if it's a level 20 wizard, it will have improved initiative...
If money is include, a +4 dex item. So the wizard would have, most likely, a higher initiative count.

It depends then on the roll of initiatives - and how close the monks start next to the wizard.

[Chronos]

Which is him having prepared for it, when it was mentioned that the trick worked if the wizard wasn't prepared.Oh, in that case, a single level 2 monk has a pretty good chance of beating the wizard. Because, of course, we're assuming that the wizard doesn't have any spells memorized, and doesn't have any magic items, because those are all preparation, too.

[TheLogman]

The Monks in question are NOT idiotic one-track mind mooks. You can cast Forcecage, the Monks will get through. No Bars? You can't kill them all. Rope Trick/MMM? you still aren't killing anything. Prismatic wall? Not only can you technically not breath in there after an amount of time, but there is an exposed bottom. The monks will dig underground, and because there are infinite of them, they will get to you, and fast. So what if they are blinded? They have INFINITY on their side, you do not. They have infinite bodies, Hp, and players, you do not. They can go on forever, you can not. Infinity is a concept we cannot understand, but imagine this. Fill your entire town with monks. Now, fill the state with monks, the country, the world, the solar system, the galaxy, and finally, the universe. There are not infinite Wizards, he has no infinity on his side. The There are infinite Monks, and a Wizard cannot kill them all, simply because that is how infinity works, it goes on FOREVER.

Essentially, the question itself is flawed, because infinity is a concept, not a number, and a Wizard cannot kill them all, because infinity is, well, infinite.

[Corinthus]

One thing about the whole 'theres infinity of them, so they can jump through your prismatic wall/whatever else you're using, and infinity will get through' thing.

Infinity of them die.

Also, its a larger infinity. (maths ftw!)

I mean its infinity but its infinity times (at least) 19. (since the no. of integers is infinite, and the no of even no's is infinite, and such theres a smaller infity being used.) Infinity gets weird like that.

Anyhoo, the net result is that yes, the wizard can die to infinite monks (not gonna say he will, some of these builds look promising), but he takes infinity monks with him.

[TheLogman]

But, he doesn't Infinity is a concept impossible to reach! He will have defeated a number of monks that are not only finite, but countable. You can count every since Monk killed, and since the killing will stop, (You did admit that the wizard will die) the killing will not continue for infinity, and ergo he will have killed a finite amount (Could be over 400 google (A real number, 1 with 100 zeros after it) but he still only killed a finite number)

[Tokiko Mima]

But, he doesn't Infinity is a concept impossible to reach! He will have defeated a number of monks that are not only finite, but countable. You can count every since Monk killed, and since the killing will stop, (You did admit that the wizard will die) the killing will not continue for infinity, and ergo he will have killed a finite amount (Could be over 400 google (A real number, 1 with 100 zeros after it) but he still only killed a finite number)

Agree with the above poster. A finite number of wizards (1) can only kill a finite number of monks. It may approach infinity as time approaches infinity, but the wizard will *never* finish killing every last monk, even given limitless time. Near infinity is not infinity: no matter how many monks march to their deaths through a prismatic wall there will still be the same number of monks left, i.e. infinity.

You can subtract any finite number from infinity and still have infinity left. The wizard will not even be making any progress towards his goal of defeating them all. Suppose the wizard developed a super contagious instantly lethal monk virus and each monk would automatically pass it onto another 9 monks every second. The rate at which the monks would die would be exponentially increasing (10^n, number of seconds), but never enough to even dent the infinity of monks.

[Emperor Tippy]

Let's see.

It doesn't matter if you can or can not breath in the prismatic sphere. You can breath in the MMM.

As for the Prismatic Sphere being defensive, your correct. But given an infinite amount of time and infinite number of Goblin Monks will charge said Prismatic Sphere and die meaning that the wizard has killed an infinite amount of monks.

And if you can't use items, thats alright. You don't need them.

As for Initiative, it doesn't matter unless the goblins get a surprise round (which they shouldn't). Celerity+Time Stop followed by Prismatic Sphere and Stone Skin. Now you do the rest of my combo.

There may be an infinite number of goblins but the only time they can stop me is before my plan takes hold (under 2 miniutes). And they only get 1 chance.

So I win.


Oh and after I set up my Prismatic Killing Trap I greater teleport away and rest in an MMM. Then I go off and kill enough dragons to reach level 21. Now that I have epic magic I go and commit goblin genocide.

[TheLogman]

Tippy, nobody said these Monks are suicidal. They are creatures with 3+ intelligence, which means they know enough battle tactics that after about 100 of them hit the fan, they will think up a new idea.

Plus, You CANNOT kill an infinite AMOUNT of anything, infinity is an UNREACHABLE concept. The universe WILL END, all the suns will burn out, the moon will hit the earth, and all the gods will die of old age before you hit infinity. Infinity means uncountable. You will ALWAYS be able to count the number you kill, so, you can't do it.

[Korias]

Theres a very simple solution.

Step one: Cast Wish
Step two: Wish for the Monk class to not exsist.
Step Three: Maintain a MMM+Ropetrick and just blast all the goblins that are still in exsistance left over. Infact, Wish Again can be used to "Remove all Goblins from Exsistance"

[Renx]

Theres a very simple solution.

Step one: Cast Wish
Step two: Wish for the Monk class to not exsist.
Step Three: Maintain a MMM+Ropetrick and just blast all the goblins that are still in exsistance left over. Infact, Wish Again can be used to "Remove all Goblins from Exsistance"

A Wish can duplicate a spell or a spell effect up to SLVL 8. That would be an epic spell, so no can do.


Plus, You CANNOT kill an infinite AMOUNT of anything, infinity is an UNREACHABLE concept. The universe WILL END, all the suns will burn out, the moon will hit the earth, and all the gods will die of old age before you hit infinity. Infinity means uncountable. You will ALWAYS be able to count the number you kill, so, you can't do it.

Ohh, the poor catgirls. You're forgetting one thing: The Planes are infinite, so you'd just need a constructed plane of goblin monks. Besides, it's magic. Immortality? Easy, just offer a blood god 1,000,000 goblin deaths a year for instant immortality. And what makes you think we're on Earth?

//Edit1: Doublepost into single.

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy, nobody said these Monks are suicidal. They are creatures with 3+ intelligence, which means they know enough battle tactics that after about 100 of them hit the fan, they will think up a new idea.
They can think up all the new ideas they want. It doesn't matter. Given an infinite amount of time I will kill an infinite amount of level 2 goblin monks because an infinite amount of level 2 goblin monks will charge my Prismatic Sphere of Death.


Plus, You CANNOT kill an infinite AMOUNT of anything, infinity is an UNREACHABLE concept. The universe WILL END, all the suns will burn out, the moon will hit the earth, and all the gods will die of old age before you hit infinity. Infinity means uncountable. You will ALWAYS be able to count the number you kill, so, you can't do it.
Actually you don't quite get the concept of infinity. An infinite amount of time will pass with an infinite number of level 2 goblin monks charging into my sphere and an infinite number will die.

None of those 3 infinites is equal but they are all infinity. Now one can argue that since infinite is an impossible concept that can't exist then this whole challenge is moot.

No level 2 goblin monk can ever get rid of my prismatic sphere by RAW. The only way he could do it involves items that are priced higher than his WBL meaning that even if a hundred goblins pooled their money they can't do it. It's above any one of theirs WBL so they can't buy Candle's of Invocation or anything else that would help them.

[Renx]

Please, don't get mathematics or philosophy into this. Basically, "infinite goblin monks" means simply "the goblin monks will keep coming until the wizard dies". The problem thus becomes, "can the wizard keep killing them and replenishing herself in any given timescale."

And the answer is yes, yes he can.

[Korias]

A Wish can duplicate a spell or a spell effect up to SLVL 8. That would be an epic spell, so no can do.




Can't the Wish Spell be used to create an even greater effect, but with added dangers? Poor wording can be incredibly dangerous, but you can still get the desired effect of removing all monks in the multiverse, thus defeating an infinite number of level two monks.

[Renx]

Can't the Wish Spell be used to create an even greater effect, but with added dangers? Poor wording can be incredibly dangerous, but you can still get the desired effect of removing all monks in the multiverse, thus defeating an infinite number of level two monks.

By the RAW, no(//Edit1: not reliably enough to answer the question at hand, that is). Besides, a wish is basically putting an order to chaos or a reward from a deity or magical entity (such as a djinn). I strongly doubt any given D&D djinn or deity could or would genocide goblin monks.


No level 2 goblin monk can ever get rid of my prismatic sphere by RAW. The only way he could do it involves items that are priced higher than his WBL meaning that even if a hundred goblins pooled their money they can't do it. It's above any one of theirs WBL so they can't buy Candle's of Invocation or anything else that would help them.

Well, since there's an infinite amount of them and they each have a millionth of a trillionth of a copper piece, they will eventually be able to buy every (not 'any') magic item in existence. And/or buy favours/services from other NPCs. Therefore, to have any kind of rhyme or reason the battle must be with no magic items or wealth (excepting a spellbook).

[TheLogman]

Alright, as I occasionally say: "Those who believe shall never change, just continue to believe."

Final Focus: Infinity is Infinite, it goes on Forever, and is a concept, not a number. There is not limit to the monks, so a Wizard cannot win, because there will always be a count. You can sit there, and tally the number of Monks killed, and you can keep tallying them, and tallying them, and tallying them. As long as you can count them, you have not reached infinity. What you are doing is a task that produces finite results.

Also, when the Monks breach the Sphere through digging (There are infinite of them, so this will happen at least infinite times) you will have to cast another somewhere else, or they stunning fist you. Eventually, you will run out of your finite gold supply from casting permanency, which I think has a long casting time anyway. When you sleep in your MMM, you will eventually be deposited, and eventually, given an infinite amount of time (Something you admitted would happen) They will dig under at the exact moment you exit your MMM, leading to death. This WILL happen eventually, you cannot stop it. Infinite Monks are like Death, the Wizard fears it, because regardless of his efforts, you cannot outsmart the inevitable.

Also, I am done, gonna go cook up some homebrew, these debates on the application of abstract ideas to events inside an RPG get boring after a while.

[Renx]

Final Focus: Infinity is Infinite, it goes on Forever, and is a concept, not a number. There is not limit to the monks, so a Wizard cannot win, because there will always be a count. You can sit there, and tally the number of Monks killed, and you can keep tallying them, and tallying them, and tallying them. As long as you can count them, you have not reached infinity. What you are doing is a task that produces finite results.

Okay, since you like to do it conceptually, let's just prove it:
Claim: A prepared wizard can kill an infinite amount of goblin monks. (A)
Reverse: An infinite amount of goblins can kill a prepared wizard (!A)
Proof: The goblins can keep on coming, but they will never be able to kill a prepared wizard.
Therefore, !A is false so A is true. The wizard wins.


Also, when the Monks breach the Sphere through digging *snip*

Fly, Wall of Force, Permanency. The goblins will never reach the wizard since he is either high above them or inside a room made of Walls of Force.

[Emperor Tippy]

The sphere goes through the ground. At least according to numerous examples in the Stronghold Builders guide. But that doesn't really matter anyways. Remember the teleportation circles. And the Symbols of Death. If said goblin digs under the sphere and attempts to come up inside the sphere he will have no way though because of the teleportation circles in every square in the sphere. He teleports into the ocean.

[Korias]

By the RAW, no(//Edit1: not reliably enough to answer the question at hand, that is).

A 20th level wizard can cast wish. It states in the rules as well that wish can create a greater effect than that listed: To quote the book:


You may wish for greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a Wish gives you the opportunity to fulfill your request without fufilling it completely.

Therefore, its likely that you will get your wording twisted unless your a lawyer, but it can be done with a single wish.

[Renx]

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Sure... you can try, but why bother risking it.

[Selrahc]

How long do goblins live? 50 years?

As long as the wizard can keep fighting for fifty years, the problem will solve itself. Unless the monks decide to breed or something. But that seems pretty unmonkish.:smalltongue:

Of course if it gets looked at like that, then I guess the wizard only has to keep fighting for a few weeks before the vast majority of goblins within say... a lifetimes travel, die off due to lack of food and water. Some(And therefore infinite) will manage to survive, through a combination of canibalism, and local foraging, but the vast majority of those infinite monks will be far too far away to ever find the wizard, and so the real number of foes the wizard is fighting are much much smaller.

As well as that, you've got morale. The infinite monks closest to the wizard, are going to have to be really really commited to follow a battle stategy that results in untold hundreds of thousands dying off. Most of them would probably run away, or hide. Or join the wizard.

Of course on the other side of the coin, the monks goblins don't need to stay as level 2. They can fight each other to train. And since any portion of infinity is still infinity, then the wizard is going to be fighting infinite level 20 monk goblins. Not that that probably matters....

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually the goblin monks do have to stay at level 2. If any of them level up then they become level 3 and are thus no longer part of the infinite number of level 2 goblin monks that are after the wizard.

[quick_comment]

But, he doesn't Infinity is a concept impossible to reach! He will have defeated a number of monks that are not only finite, but countable. You can count every since Monk killed, and since the killing will stop, (You did admit that the wizard will die) the killing will not continue for infinity, and ergo he will have killed a finite amount (Could be over 400 google (A real number, 1 with 100 zeros after it) but he still only killed a finite number)

"Not only finite, but countable" does not make sense - countability does not imply finiteness, but finiteness does imply countability.


A finite set of monks: A monk for every letter in the English alphabet. There are 26 monks, and it's possible to designate one as monk 0, one as monk 1, etc. and eventually label all of them.
An infinite but countable set of monks: A monk for every natural number. There is an infinite number of monks, but it's trivial to assign each of them a natural number(to count them).
An infinite, uncountable set of monks: A monk for every real number. There is still an infinite number of monks, but somehow there are "more", because now it's impossible to label every monk with a natural number in a manner that will uniquely label all the monks. (The real numbers are uncountable.)


Also, as some have already pointed out, in mathematical speech, "the wizard can kill an infinite number of monks" would generally be an informal way of stating "for any (finite) natural number K, the wizard can kill a number of monks exceeding K". Of course the wizard will never at any point in finite time have killed an infinite number of monks, but to balk on this point is excessively nitpicky even by mathematical standards. :smallsmile:

So in conclusion, whether a wizard can achieve this is a valid D&D question; it can't be solved by some mathematical property of infinity alone. It's true that infinity is very big, so the monks can achieve some tactics that are otherwise infeasible--e.g. they can reach flying opponents by climbing each other. (The "kill each other for strength" solution is my personal favourite. If accepted, the problem is reduced to whether the wizard can kill an infinite number of infinite-level beings, each with two levels of monk, which I suspect is an easier question :smallcool:.)

(Side note: infinite monks will not in general die if the monks manage to kill the wizard. If they kill the wizard(in a finite amount of time - there's no sensible way that I can think of to say that they kill the wizard in infinite time, given that at some definite point the objective, the death of the wizard, is actually achieved), the wizard will only have been able to kill a finite number of monks.)

[Randel]

Step 1: levitate in the air out of reach

Step 2: kill at least one goblin monk using a spell (cloudkill, fireball, etc)

Step 3: cast Create Greater Undead on one of the corpses and create a spectre.

Step 4: Command the CR 7 spectre to "Put any valuables you may have in a pile over there and then go kill goblins. Instruct any spectres you create to do the same."
Step 4b: Create a corporeal undead to go search the bodies and collect loot.

Step 5: Go off and do whatever you want, occasionally coming back to check how much loot your undead plague has collected.

Step 6: ???

Step 7: Profit!

Edit: spectres are incorporial so you need something that can carry the loot.

[deadseashoals]

They can think up all the new ideas they want. It doesn't matter. Given an infinite amount of time I will kill an infinite amount of level 2 goblin monks because an infinite amount of level 2 goblin monks will charge my Prismatic Sphere of Death.


Actually you don't quite get the concept of infinity. An infinite amount of time will pass with an infinite number of level 2 goblin monks charging into my sphere and an infinite number will die.

None of those 3 infinites is equal but they are all infinity. Now one can argue that since infinite is an impossible concept that can't exist then this whole challenge is moot.

No level 2 goblin monk can ever get rid of my prismatic sphere by RAW. The only way he could do it involves items that are priced higher than his WBL meaning that even if a hundred goblins pooled their money they can't do it. It's above any one of theirs WBL so they can't buy Candle's of Invocation or anything else that would help them.

He could roll all 20s on his saves. He's got evasion, so the auto damage won't hurt him, and he could correctly guess your square while blinded, roll two natural 20s, and score a crit on you with stunning fist, which you will fail the saving throw for by rolling a natural 1. Now, an infinite number of these guys will get through your sphere, score crits, and stun you. They will also break through your 150 hp of stone skin and whatever. So what you need for your plan is a way to be invulnerable to an infinite number of their attacks, even if it lasts a finite amount of time. I'm thinking iron body would do the trick.

That way, you could cast iron body, emerge from the mansion, and have them bring it on, knowing that once you're out of iron body spells for the day, you can go back in and rest.

[Tokiko Mima]

Actually the goblin monks do have to stay at level 2. If any of them level up then they become level 3 and are thus no longer part of the infinite number of level 2 goblin monks that are after the wizard.

In fact an infinite number of them do level up, and an infinite number of monks remain level 2. There's no way to get around the infinity of monks, even if you say 95% of them level up, that still leaves an infinity of level 2 monks which is the same as you started with.

If the infinite monks spread themselves out, they could occupy all 5' squares across the multiverse, leaving no where for the wizard to be able to cast his MMM without provoking AoO from at least 27 different monks (in 3 space) every 40 hours when he pops out of his MMM then darts back in.

Or the monks could all start praying and through simultaneous worship generate a greater deity of 'killing this one particular wizard.' A diety might be able to suck the wizard out of his MMM. A little Forgotten Realms-ish granted, but it's just an idea.

[Felius]

Well, if your wizard lives by the coast he can probably pull this off. But anyway, if the wizard can create a space where monks have literal 0% of chance of being and staying alive, he can probably not loose. Now to win, it's pretty much impossible other then maybe some pun-pun cheesery. (I give myself the ability to kill all goblin monks in existence at will no matter the initative order. There is no saving throw):smallcool:

[Jack_Simth]

Well, if your wizard lives by the coast he can probably pull this off. But anyway, if the wizard can create a space where monks have literal 0% of chance of being and staying alive, he can probably not loose. Now to win, it's pretty much impossible other then maybe some pun-pun cheesery. (I give myself the ability to kill all goblin monks in existence at will no matter the initative order. There is no saving throw):smallcool:

He merely needs the capacity to keep it up forever with an actual 0% chance of being slain. So you need an Elan (for the lack of a maximum age - Warforged might be able to do so too, possibly a few others) who will be able to keep killing monks without risk.

If you can go somewhere they cannot reach (create or find a demiplane they can't reach and Plane Shift there, for instance) and find a way to attack despite it (spamming Maximized Nightmares, perhaps) to kill the monks at some rate, and you can kill infinity of them, given an infinite period of time to do so (hence picking a race with no age limit).

[Emperor Tippy]

He could roll all 20s on his saves. He's got evasion, so the auto damage won't hurt him, and he could correctly guess your square while blinded, roll two natural 20s, and score a crit on you with stunning fist, which you will fail the saving throw for by rolling a natural 1. Now, an infinite number of these guys will get through your sphere, score crits, and stun you. They will also break through your 150 hp of stone skin and whatever. So what you need for your plan is a way to be invulnerable to an infinite number of their attacks, even if it lasts a finite amount of time. I'm thinking iron body would do the trick.

That way, you could cast iron body, emerge from the mansion, and have them bring it on, knowing that once you're out of iron body spells for the day, you can go back in and rest.

Actually no. Teleportation Circle doesn't give a save. So after the goblin get's into the Prismatic Sphere (requiring 8 natural 20's in a row) he is teleported to the sun and thus dies.

Stone Skin is just encase the odd one gets through while you are setting up all the other stuff.

------------
Leveling up the monks doesn't work. The whole challenge is an infinite number of level 2 monks. Once they level up they cease being level 2 and are thus removed from the challenge. Just like the wizard is if he reaches level 21.

[Rimx]

If said goblin digs under the sphere and attempts to come up inside the sphere he will have no way though because of the teleportation circles in every square in the sphere. He teleports into the ocean.

But don't you have to stand on the circles to be teleported? If you dig under you're not touching it. Could you destroy a circle by digging the ground out from underneath it?

[Nowhere Girl]

*skips to the end*

Swordsage caster variant can do it.

Time Stop, Adaptive Style to refresh maneuvers, including Time Stop, hello infinite loop ... and just drop NI area effects until whatever number of goblins has zero chance of survival, then move to a safe distance and watch the fun.

[Jack_Simth]

But don't you have to stand on the circles to be teleported? If you dig under you're not touching it. Could you destroy a circle by digging the ground out from underneath it?
Hmm.... there's a problem with the Teleportation Circles:
"You create a circle on the floor or other horizontal surface that teleports, as greater teleport, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot."

The Permanancied Prismatic Sphere in which you're containing this only has a 10-foot radius. Worst-case (you in the center - anywhere else, and you're closer than that to an edge), they need a 10-foot jump - which is only DC 10 - and Monks get Jump as a class skill.

[ArmorArmadillo]

From a theoretical perspective, the Prismatic Sphere is meaningless. A 2nd level monk who gets 20 on every save ignores it, and since we're dealing with infinity here, the issue is only whether it could happen.

The way to frame it would be-if the Monks rolled nothing but 20's and the Wizard rolled nothing but 1's, would one be capable of doing damage to the wizard and then being replaced before the wizard had time to fully heal or prepare himself.


The answer, is yes.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Okay, I'm going to assume a few things here-

1- Level 20 core Wizard, knows all possible spells or at least has access to all splatbooks, has WBL, Elan Race, at least 19 int. Let's say 20 int.
2- Level 2 core monks, coming without end forever. But to simplify things, Let's say it's an ancient Goblin artifact that revives the Goblin God for 24 h ours, and makes it so all Goblins roll natural 20's and always "make the perfect decision" for 24 hours, while the Wizard always rolls the worst possible result on all rolls for the 24 hours. All Goblins have 20 hp.
3- The Wizard is standing in front of the portal leading out of the dimension. If a single goblin gets through, or he dies, he loses. Aside from the gear and spells he brings in for the day, he cannot get outside help.
4- The wizard isn't allowed to turtle- He literally MUST kill goblins as they come at him- he can't just hide in a Magnificent Mansion or box of Force endlessly. Walls of force are allowed, but 3d geometric shapes of them are completely out of the question. Let's say he has to kill or otherwise remove 1 goblin a round.
5- The Goblins are either of random alignments, or all neutral. If they were all Evil, All he'd need to do is cast "Circle of Protection: Evil" and sit in it.
6- The wizard has enough EXP and materials to cast his "daily allotment".
7- The Wizard may rest in the middle of the battle, but doing so would be dangerous.
8- The Wish's "May wish for things other than what's listed" effect is BANZ0RED

So- as this is how the situation seems, the wizard has to have a 100% effective way of killing, or at least removing, the goblins as they come at him. With no room for error... At least he needs some way of keeping the goblins from approaching freely, but he needs some way to deal 20 damage to each goblin a round (Maximized 2d6 + 8 from monk levels and 18 con per level) without chance for failure. This is a tall order. :smalleek:

My suggestion would probably involve "Transmute rock to lava/acid" a few walls of force (Make the Goblins have to crawl to the objective) and a Circle of Teleportation leading to the bottom of the Lavapit (Situated in the restricted movement zone to force the goblins in without error.)

"Reverse Gravity" could also be an effective spell to use, especially if combined with a Sphere of Annihalation or somesuch. (But it can't allow for a reflex save, and if it allows will/fort saves, has to do at least 20 damage on a failed save.)

[Woot Spitum]

Here's an easy way for a 20th level wizard to kill an infinite number of monks. First, be an Elan so that you can live forever. Second, take leadership. Use leadership to attract at least one lich as a cohort. Cast genesis to create a private demiplane, and enter said demiplane with your cohort. Instruct your lich to leave his phylactery in the safety of your demiplane, then tell him to return to the prime material and kill level 2 goblin monks at a steady rate, without completely wiping them out, for all eternity. Even if the lich is killed, he'll just regenerate. No one can destroy his phylactery because no one can enter your demiplane without your permission. Since he never wipes out the monks there will always be more to kill.

[Renx]

I don't think Genesis is Core...

[tyckspoon]

9th level spell. The SRD has it packed in with the Epic stuff, for some reason.

[Chronos]

Quoth quick_comment:
"Not only finite, but countable" does not make sense - countability does not imply finiteness, but finiteness does imply countability.Thank you; that was annoying me, too. While we're at it on the mathematical pedantry, there are different sizes of infinite numbers, but nobody in this argument has brought in any but the smallest of them. If we're assuming that the monks each have a finite amount of volume, then there can only be a countably infinite number of them, and likewise a countably infinite number are left after doing anything, and a countably infinite number of them are in any particular category or have any particular trait. All of those numbers are exactly the same size of infinity. There is no infinite number smaller than that infinity, and you're not likely to find any way to make any larger infinite number which is relevant to this exercise.

Another comment: It's not quite fair to model this as an extension of the "unlucky wizard, lucky other" scenario. Yes, some monk will eventually roll N natural 20s in a row, for any given value of N, but that's eventually. It'll probably take a while before that streak occurs (given that only a finite number of monks are in range of the wizard at any given time), which means that the wizard probably has some time to set up his defenses (whatever they are) before the streak of bad luck hits.

[the_tick_rules]

he could evade them essentially forever. but if their really are infinite numbers and he stood and fought sooner or later he'd run out of spells and they'd mob him.

[Talic]

No, but a level 21 Wizard could. All has to do is create an Epic spell that causes a Genocide of all Goblins, forever.

Anyway, Wizards are a resource class. Eventually, according to the fact there are infinite, the Monks will eventually get the following in a row: Stunning Fist succeed, Critical hit, Confirmation, max damage, Stunning fist, Critical Hit, Confirmation, Max Damage, ect. times however many anyone wants. Infinity means everything happens, and since its only on the side of the Monks, everything that they need to happen will, EVENTUALLY!

Problem is, there are a finite number of crits in a day, and a simple contingency spell for when the wizard becomes injured, then Otiluke's sphere of some sort, teleport, gaseous form, or the like, and you'd be golden.

Also, through magic items, spells, and the like, it's possible to render yourself immune to stunning, and the like. If that's the case, while a wizard certainly couldn't kill an infinite number (there's a limited number per day that the wiz can kill, and a limited lifespan in the wizard), a wizard could theoretically kill as many gobbo's as tried to penetrate the barrier. That failing, a minor magic item allowing permanent breathing, and Otiluke's telekinetic sphere around himself would protect from pretty much anything a level 2 monk could do.

The advantage of high level characters, especially casters, is that they contain a great ability to shape a battlefield, moreso than non-casters. You can rig a game, and, when the game is rigged, the odds really don't matter.

Alternately, for a "green fountain, green rain" approach...

Cast "Fly" on yourself. Then "Permanency" a "Reverse Gravity". "Fly" to the ground in the center of the Gravity field, and "Wind Wall" around yourself to protect from projectiles.

Any that approach are launched skyward prior to reaching you, to whatever hazard you have devised at the top. Perhaps a Teleportation circle, upside down, on the ceiling, to somewhere devious.... A 1 gobbo sized ledge hovering about 200 feet over a very hard surface. While technically safe to teleport to, and thus eligible for teleporting, your arrival shall bump the last guy to oblivion, and the next guy will get you. Thus, a green fountain, and a green rain.

[GoC]

5. Forcecage isn't a save all. In the barred version there are gaps and the both the wizard and monks can attack through it.

That's why I included Windwall.

TheLogman: How do they get past barred forcecage?:smallconfused:

About Infinites: You all know the OP meant unlimited so stop arguing.

Another idea would be for the wizard to find a reasonable safe space to rest (10000ft underground should do) and create an infinite use item of prismatic sphere.
He then creates a portal to his demiplane in the center of the spheres and gets some of his followers to work in shifts reactivating the spheres.
He now has an at least 10^10000 years to somehow earn about 648,000 to create an item that activates two prismatic spheres at a time.
Then another 10^100,000,000 years to create an item that activates three prismatic spheres at a time.
He can continue this pattern indefinitely.

[Jack_Simth]

Perhaps a Teleportation circle, upside down, on the ceiling, to somewhere devious.... A 1 gobbo sized ledge hovering about 200 feet over a very hard surface. While technically safe to teleport to, and thus eligible for teleporting, your arrival shall bump the last guy to oblivion, and the next guy will get you. Thus, a green fountain, and a green rain.
Doesn't quite work - you see, you also can't send them to a location where there is a solid object - and methinks a creature at the exact point probably qualifies.

[kemmotar]

I'd think that firstly this is not a fantasy game question...it's a disguised mathematical problem set up by one D&D playing math university professor so be aware if your professor actually asks this in the exams:smalltongue:

anyway...since infinite does not actually exist in game terms and you don't NEED to win this. Max up your ranks in disguise use disguise self and a high charisma score to disguise as anything other than a wizard...planshift to another plane and continue with your life...who would want to spend eternity killing level 2 monk goblins...they don't even yield xp...

[Emperor Demonking]

The goblins bring a finite number of dragons (they use diplomacy and thier infinite wealth), because the wizard lacks control of who he kills. The dragons die and the wizard becomes level 21.

[Fawsto]

He cant... One day, one time, he will run out of materials... The Planes would run out of material.

[Ralfarius]

He cant... One day, one time, he will run out of materials... The Planes would run out of material.
Can't he just wish for more material?

[Renx]

He cant... One day, one time, he will run out of materials... The Planes would run out of material.

The Planes are infinite.

[Randel]

So, the 'kill a few goblins, raise one as a spectre and have the incorporeal undead kill and raise an exponentially growing number of spawn to counter the infinite goblins' plan doesn't work?

[Emperor Demonking]

Typpicly it works unless the goblins can stop the wizard from being an alive level 20 wizard.

[Deepblue706]

Infinite level 2 mooks can kill the level 20 Wizard. Indirectly.

First, they all have throw their money they have to jumpstart the building of infrastructure of their new communist nation, over time upgrading to magically operated systems that are more efficient in the production of various trade goods. They begin trading with other nations, and then raise plenty of capital so that they may hire an Epic level Wizard to go kill the level 20 one.

Uwee hee hee!

[hewhosaysfish]

Infinite level 2 mooks can kill the level 20 Wizard. Indirectly.

First, they all have throw their money they have to jumpstart the building of infrastructure of their new communist nation, over time upgrading to magically operated systems that are more efficient in the production of various trade goods. They begin trading with other nations, and then raise plenty of capital so that they may hire an Epic level Wizard to go kill the level 20 one.

Uwee hee hee!

I know have this little mental movie playing of a bunch of goblins, 10 million billion miles from where all the fighting is, waiting for years for the wizards to show up, building traps, palisades and barracks, foraging for food... Eventually (assuming mixed genders in this infinite goblin horde) someone will get round to raising a family. Barracks become houses, corrals become farms, warcamps become villages...
Fast forward 500 years and there are thriving goblin nations. Stories of the eternal war between goblins and an immortal "wizard" (cursed by the gods to continually do battle against an unworthy foe, no doubt as punishment for Batman cheese) have faded into legend.
Then the wizard swoops overhead and annihilates them all with a cloudkill. It took him all this time just to massacre all the goblins between here and where he started.

That would be such a fun idea for a one-off game: You are the band of brave young goblins charged with saving you country from this Ancient Evil(tm)!

[GoC]

hewhosaysfish:
XD
So Awesome...:smallcool: :smallcool: :smallcool:

[Jack_Simth]

So, the 'kill a few goblins, raise one as a spectre and have the incorporeal undead kill and raise an exponentially growing number of spawn to counter the infinite goblins' plan doesn't work?

No, it doesn't - for the simple reason that you have to have some way to control the spectres in order for it to work ... and the Spectre's Create Spawn ability specifies that they're under the command of the spectre that created them, so the control may fade after you revert from your Shapechange.

[BizzaroStormy]

The answer is an absolute NO. Think about it, the wizard would eventually die of old age if he were facing truly infinite numbers.

[Catch]

The answer is an absolute NO. Think about it, the wizard would eventually die of old age if he were facing truly infinite numbers.

Not if he's an Outsider. Or Undead. Or has attained any of the other was to gain immortality in D&D.

[Jack_Simth]

The answer is an absolute NO. Think about it, the wizard would eventually die of old age if he were facing truly infinite numbers.
The quick answer to that is the oft-mentioned Elan (from the XPH, also available in the Psionics section of the SRD) who has a maximum age listed as "N/A" - and as a +0 LA race, it shouldn't pose any particular fears for a primary caster. Also deals with the food issue, too, through that nifty Repletion.

[Talic]

Doesn't quite work - you see, you also can't send them to a location where there is a solid object - and methinks a creature at the exact point probably qualifies.

Spoilsport. Make it a portal then. Not outside the boundaries of chance to have the wizard using a portal. Or a "Grease" slide. Whilst technically safe to TP to, the bottomless pit below, or volcano isn't.

[purplearcanist]

Yes.

1. Be a lich
2.Feel free to kill the monks with your touch, as they can't harm you, unless they can deal more then 15 damage in a single attack (and for that, they need a strength modifier of +10).

[Setra]

Yes.

1. Be a lich
2.Feel free to kill the monks with your touch, as they can't harm you, unless they can deal more then 15 damage in a single attack (and for that, they need a strength modifier of +10).
I thought an Unarmed Strike was Bludgeoning Damage, and bypassed DR?

[Skjaldbakka]

I thought an Unarmed Strike was Bludgeoning Damage, and bypassed DR?

Bludgeoning damage doesn't bypass DR. IIRC, Impact damage and Crushing damage does (from falling, and high pressure, respectively).

Unless of course you meant DR of 15/bludgeoning and magic, in which case the level 2 monks of the scenrio meet one, but not the other (they don't get magic 'til 4th level).

[Emperor Demonking]

The goblins bring a finite number of dragons (they use diplomacy and thier infinite wealth), because the wizard lacks control of who he kills. The dragons die and the wizard becomes level 21.

Can no one work away against this.

[Setra]

Bludgeoning damage doesn't bypass DR. IIRC, Impact damage and Crushing damage does (from falling, and high pressure, respectively).

Unless of course you meant DR of 15/bludgeoning and magic, in which case the level 2 monks of the scenrio meet one, but not the other (they don't get magic 'til 4th level).
What if they use a Magic Quarterstaff? :smallconfused:

Heck with infinite money, make it a +1484926436897256165783678491624637831296483716487 weapon.

[RoboticSheeple]

Where does this infinite money idea come from, it's infinite level two goblin monks, not a team of infinite level two goblin monks. I think it's outside the spirit of the original challenge to have the monks working together. (Maybe the challenge changed on pages 2, 3, 4 that I didn't read, yes I'm a bad poster)

[deadseashoals]

Actually no. Teleportation Circle doesn't give a save. So after the goblin get's into the Prismatic Sphere (requiring 8 natural 20's in a row) he is teleported to the sun and thus dies.

Stone Skin is just encase the odd one gets through while you are setting up all the other stuff.

Stone skin is finite, and you have to stand in a teleportation circle. The monks could (and given infinite time, would) jump, attacking you once in the process and scoring a stunning crit before being teleported into the ocean. They have to jump to attack you in the first place anyway.

[Emperor Tippy]

Stone skin is finite, and you have to stand in a teleportation circle. The monks could (and given infinite time, would) jump, attacking you once in the process and scoring a stunning crit before being teleported into the ocean. They have to jump to attack you in the first place anyway.

Stoneskin is only to cover you while preparing your defenses.

If we are allowed to use things outside of core thsi is how it goes.

Celerity
Time Stop
Prismatic Sphere
Stoneskin
Statue
Permanency (Prismatic Sphere)
Teleportation Circle
Permanency (Teleportation Circle)
Teleportation Circle
Permanency (Teleportation Circle)
Teleportation Circle
Permanency (Teleportation Circle)
Magnificent Mansion
Rest for 24 hours
Cast Greater Celerity
Step out of your MMM
Cast Cloudkill inside the Prismatic Sphere
Step back into your MMM
Wait until any goblins inside the Sphere are dead
Step out of MMM
Cast Levitate
Levitate up about 5 feet
Teleportation Circle
Permanency (Teleportation Circle)
Plane Shift to the Plain of Ida on the Heroic Domains of Ysgard
Spend the rest of the lifetime of the multiverse hanging out here.


Your Prismatic Sphere Kill-o-Trap on the material plane will, given an infinite amount of time, kill an infinite amount of level 2 goblin monks.

Level 2 goblin monks can't reach you on the Plains of Ida but assuming a portal exists to the Plains of Ida and a goblin monk gets there and kills you, you true resurrect within a day.

Now if you start being overrun on the Plaisn of Ida by level 2 goblin monks you go and make your own plan using Genesis and live there.

The whole point of the Prismatic Sphere isn't to protect you, it's to set up a trap that will last forever and still be able to kill level 2 goblin monks. So if my wizard lives an infinite amount of time, I will kill an infinite amount of level 2 goblin monks.

[dfpiii]

Well, my 2cp.

Technically the material universe is limited in size - though has no boundaries as such - so a truly infinite number of goblins could only be found on an infinite dimension. And for the purposes of agruement let's say this is a sealed dimension which it is impossible to leave - i.e. the chance of being able to move to any other dimension by any and all means is 0%. (This is for ease of argument, as this post continues, you'll see that it wouldn't matter).

Let's not get into the whole crushing weight of goblins thing - as the plane is infinite you can still have a clear sky and large patches of ground that aren't swarming with goblins. In fact the amount of ground that isn't covered with goblins is also infinite (so, actually, it's possible that even travelling towards one another at their maximum move rates, the wizard and the goblins would never meet, even if we were to presume infinite time, because the distance between them would be infinite).

Now, what this means is that both the wizard and the goblins have an infinite amount of time to prepare for their encounter, but that this amount of time is practically limited by the amount of time it takes one to destroy the other.

As the goblins are infinite, they can accomplish anything given enough time. Eventually, if allowed enough time, an infinite number of goblins will advance to become higher level wizards than the wizard, their mountains of corpses smother him, etc. Any situation you care to imagine, the goblins can, with certain minimums of time, achieve it.

However the wizard can only achieve what he can do in an amount of time allotted to him before the goblins eventually achieve the certain "anything" that leads to his destruction.

That means the time the wizard has is finite. While the wizard can create an exponentially increasing number creatures, he cannot create an infinite number because he doesn't have infinite time. Any defense he can build can be overcome. Any strategy he develops can be outsmarted - just by probability. So in any sufficiently long timeframe the goblins always win.

However, a wizard with 20 intelligence who hasn't made wisdom his dump stat will know this is true and knows that his only chance is to act quickly. He has the benefit of D&D mechanics to protect him - it takes even the luckiest of goblin a minimum amount of time to advance in level enough to get teleport - at which point the wizard become smothered by an infinite number of low level goblin wizards of ever increasing level - since some will come at the first level they can teleport to the wizard, some will wait a few more levels, some will not come until they hit level 40 - and all of these numbers are infinite.

Let's say - arbitrarily - that the wizard has 300 hours. At which point all the goblins who rolled 20 on every test in every round for the last 300 hours' worth of rounds, will have gained enough xp to get to the appropriate level and choose teleport as their new spell thus overcoming the problem of infinite distance and, in all likelihood, smothering the wizard under the weight of their corpses.

In this case the only important question to answer is this - can a level 20 wizard perform any action which can kill "all goblin monks" given only 300 hours?

We can find the answer to this with the same reasoning. If we run this simulation (1 wiz vs infinite goblins) an infinite number of times, we will find that some of the wizards manage to advance to level 21, develop an epic level spell and kill "all goblins". Some wizards will find a way of destroying the plane of existence itself, thus forcing a technical draw, but still technically killing an infinite number of goblins in the process. And again, all possible combinations of actions.

So, in summary, my view is that the wizard (w) is greater than the sum of all goblins (G) where the time passed (t) is less than the artibitary amount set for advance to teleport (x) where space and goblins are infinite.

w>G, t<x

While this is true, the wizard has a theoretical chance which may or may not be realised. At x rounds the goblins either win right away or otherwise secure the wizard's destruction at some future point.

[Dode]

No, but only because it is mathematically impossible to reduce an infinity to zero through subtraction.
And that the infinity of monks are capable of reproduction. Since it would be reasonable to say a fraction of the infinite monks are pregnant/giving birth at any given time , and a fraction of an infinite is also infinite, we're going into recursive infinites.

[Inyssius Tor]

But if they were to level up, they would cease to be second level.

This isn't Can a 20th level wizard kill infinite Epic wizards who also have two levels of monk, or Can a 20th level wizard kill the Mortiverse, and one statistically improbable 2nd level goblin monk capable of summoning it, and an infinite number of normal 2nd level goblin monks-- is it?

Also: can we please shut up about the mathematical properties of infinity? We get it already.

[Eldritch_Ent]

The title may read that way, but a bit of reading comprehension yields the true intent of the OP-

She's asking "Can a Wizard kill an indeterminate amount of 2nd level monks?". She's not asking to actually kill a number of monks equal to infinity, but rather she just wants a setup that will kill all 2nd level monks (with the unshared WBL of a 2nd level monk) that come at her without chance of failing.

[Emperor Demonking]

You sure she doesn't want to kill infinity?

[The Extinguisher]

If you have an infinite amount of enemies, create a finite bottleneck for them.

If they can only attack one at a time, it doesn't matter how many there are.

[Dode]

If you have an infinite amount of enemies, create a finite bottleneck for them.

If they can only attack one at a time, it doesn't matter how many there are. Impossible, because an infinite quantity of anything would neccessarily take up an infinite amount of space.

In fact, a bigger challenge would be figuring out how the Wizard wouldn't be crushed to death in a universe utterly packed from the centre of the Earth to the furthest reaches in the cosmos with 2nd level monks.

[Lord Zentei]

Impossible, because an infinite quantity of anything would neccessarily take up an infinite amount of space.

In fact, a bigger challenge would be figuring out how the Wizard wouldn't be crushed to death in a universe utterly packed from the centre of the Earth to the furthest reaches in the cosmos with 2nd level monks.

As an aside, the wizard would require an infinite amount of time to kill an infinite number of enemies. Thus, he can never complete the mission. :smallwink:

[Jack_Simth]

Impossible, because an infinite quantity of anything would neccessarily take up an infinite amount of space.

In fact, a bigger challenge would be figuring out how the Wizard wouldn't be crushed to death in a universe utterly packed from the centre of the Earth to the furthest reaches in the cosmos with 2nd level monks.

You are assuming the cosmos are finite. This does not necessarily apply to D&D. The twin planes of bytopia, for instance, are listed as being infinite. If you have a single file line of monks stretching from one "end" of Bytopia to the other, then you've got an infinite number of monks.... but the universe isn't packed to exploding with them.

[Lord Zentei]

You are assuming the cosmos are finite. This does not necessarily apply to D&D. The twin planes of bytopia, for instance, are listed as being infinite. If you have a single file line of monks stretching from one "end" of Bytopia to the other, then you've got an infinite number of monks.... but the universe isn't packed to exploding with them.

If the monks can choose how they are deployed at the start of the scenario, that might change (though a Plane-shift with a suitable Contingency might render it a moot point).

[dfpiii]

Impossible, because an infinite quantity of anything would neccessarily take up an infinite amount of space.

Yes, but if the "space" in which the goblins are is also infinite then, as I pointed out in my other post in this thread, goblins could also be infinitely spread out. 1 goblin in every 4 billion square miles is still an infinite number of goblins if there are an infinite number of "4 billion square mile" patches.

In an entirely randomised distribution of an infinite number of goblins over an infinite space then the average is more important than the total number. You would certainly get patches where there were very high numbers (physics intercedes here and prevents there from being an infinite number) and patches where there were none. However, chances are the wizard, if also randomly distributed, would most likely find himself in a patch with below average concentrations of goblins.

[Dode]

You are assuming the cosmos are finite.
No I am not. A finite space could not be packed with infinite number of monks.
Finite space = Finite number of contents, and thus does not qualify.

[Jack_Simth]

No I am not. A finite space could not be packed with infinite number of monks.
Finite space = Finite number of contents, and thus does not qualify.
Sorry - you're assuming that the number of monks is on an equal or higher order infinity than the available space for monks - which almost amounts to the same thing.

[Lord Zentei]

Sorry - you're assuming that the number of monks is on an equal or higher order infinity than the available space for monks - which almost amounts to the same thing.

Here I must object: monks are discrete objects, therefore, they cannot be of a higher order of infinity than a countable infinity.

Any infinite space of a finite number of dimensions, divided into discrete units will also have a countably infinite number of such subdivisions.

Therefore, the number of monks and the spaces they occupy will be of the same order of infinity - countable, that is.

You are however correct that the density of monks can be arbitrarily low if the space they occupy is infinite in extent and their number is infinite.

[Jack_Simth]

Here I must object: monks are discrete objects, therefore, they cannot be of a higher order of infinity than a countable infinity.

Any infinite space of a finite number of dimensions, divided into discrete units will also have a countably infinite number of such subdivisions.

Therefore, the number of monks and the spaces they occupy will be of the same order of infinity - countable, that is.

You are however correct that the density of monks can be arbitrarily low if the space they occupy is infinite in extent and their number is infinite.
I use order a little loosely at times. If we divide the available volume into the five-foot cubes that a small or medium creature is assumed to "use up" than space is generally going to be an I^2 (plane - vertical axis unusable) or I^3 (volume, vertical axis useable) space; the "default" infinity is an I^1 space (line). I call those different orders of infinity, myself.

[Lord Zentei]

I use order a little loosely at times. If we divide the available volume into the five-foot cubes that a small or medium creature is assumed to "use up" than space is generally going to be an I^2 (plane - vertical axis unusable) or I^3 (volume, vertical axis useable) space; the "default" infinity is an I^1 space (line). I call those different orders of infinity, myself.

Those orders of infinity are equal, since you can always rearrange your monks ordered into an infinite plane into an infinite volume. The difference is one of deployment, not one of actual number. Thus if the monks get to decide their initial deployment, they can arrange themselves in an infinitely deep pile.

[Jack_Simth]

Those orders of infinity are equal, since you can always rearrange your monks ordered into an infinite plane into an infinite volume. The difference is one of deployment, not one of actual number. Thus if the monks get to decide their initial deployment, they can arrange themselves in an infinitely deep pile.
You can arrange an infinitely deep pile, but the classical I^2 or I^3 space grows faster than an arrangement on an I^1 space.

Or, to put it another way, what's the mapping function for I^2 -> I^1 -> I^2 that doesn't lose information?

[Lord Zentei]

You can arrange an infinitely deep pile, but the classical I^2 or I^3 space grows faster than an arrangement on an I^1 space.

Or, to put it another way, what's the mapping function for I^2 -> I^1 -> I^2 that doesn't lose information?

Arrangement into diagonals: (0) <-> (0, 0); (1) <-> (1, 0); (2) <-> (0, 1); (3) <-> (2, 0); (4) <-> (1, 1); (5) <-> (0, 2), etc. as used in the proof that the infinite number of discrete objects arranged in a two-dimensional matrix has the same cardinality as that of the infinite number of objects arranged in a row.

[Lyinginbedmon]

A 9th level spell in storage, Wings of Flying, and a Reserve feat should do the trick.

[Paladin's_Wrath]

This is, of course, assuming that the 2nd level Monks are stupid enough to keep attacking a 20th level wizard?

In any case, the wizard could not do it. Just look at the definition of 'infinity'. I think there have been enough problems with that (i.e. Mr. Wizard man is crushed, stabbed, suffocated, has the laws of reality just give up and join the circus on him, etc.) that we have established already. Maybe the question can be, "Can a 20th level wizard continue to fight monks indefinitly without dying?". But still no, he has got to die sometime. As does anyone. Usually.

Of course a paladin could kill infinity no problem...but I digress...

[Jack_Simth]

A 9th level spell in storage, Wings of Flying, and a Reserve feat should do the trick.
Reserve feats that deal damage tend to have a rather short range. Slings, with the nonproficiency penalty counter, quite effectively.

Lord Zentei:
I'm not familiar with the theorm, and can't discern the proper pattern - what's the I^1 for (-1, -1), (-1, 1), and (1, -1)?

[Lord Zentei]

Reserve feats that deal damage tend to have a rather short range. Slings, with the nonproficiency penalty counter, quite effectively.

Lord Zentei:
I'm not familiar with the theorm, and can't discern the proper pattern - what's the I^1 for (-1, -1), (-1, 1), and (1, -1)?

There isn't one for these coordinates. You use non-negative coordinates only.

The pattern is as follows: you move along 45-degree diagonal lines, with the diagonal beginning at (X, 0) having X+1 objects in its sequence moving towards the Y axis.

[Jack_Simth]

There isn't one for these coordinates. You use non-negative coordinates only.

The pattern is as follows: you move along 45-degree diagonal lines, with the diagonal beginning at (X, 0) having X+1 objects in its sequence moving towards the Y axis.

Oh, so it's limited to natural numbers (N), not integers (I). That's what had me confused.

[Lord Zentei]

Oh, so it's limited to natural numbers (N), not integers (I). That's what had me confused.

Indeed. I should have pointed that out, my bad.

Of course, the idea was that the natural numbers and the integers have the same cardinality: just map each even number in N to each positive number N/2, and each odd number in N to negative number -(N+1)/2. And if you can map N to I, using natural numbers in the previous proof becomes possible.

[Jack_Simth]

Indeed. I should have pointed that out, my bad.

Of course, the idea was that the natural numbers and the integers have the same cardinality: just map each even number in N to each positive number N/2, and each odd number in N to negative number -(N+1)/2. And if you can map N to I, using natural numbers in the previous proof becomes possible.

Ah.

Oh, incidentally, you've seen the proof that 0 = 1, correct?

[Lord Zentei]

Ah.

Oh, incidentally, you've seen the proof that 0 = 1, correct?

None that I found convincing, no. :smallconfused:

[Jack_Simth]

None that I found convincing, no. :smallconfused:
What it actually is is a roundabout way of saying that infinities of the same cardinality aren't equal.

Suppose we have a counting infinity; the sum of an infinite series of 1's.
1+1+1+1+... and so on:
1+1+1+1+... = infinity

Now we add one to both sides:
1+(1+1+1+1+...) = infinity+1

Now, as adding or subtracting 1 from infinity doesn't change it, we can drop it.
1+(1+1+1+1+...) = infinity

Now we substitute:
1+(infinity) = infinity

And cancel:
1+0=0

Then reduce:
1=0

(This can be extended to A = B for all A and all B, but that is left as an exercise for the reader)

It is, of course, utterly false - which is the point. When Hilbert's Hotel is full, and he asks everyone to move one room up to make room for a new guest, they can't (requires infinity plus 1 rooms, and he's only got infinity).

[Lord Zentei]

This proof only shows that you cannot use the arithmetic of finite numbers for infinite ones.

Hilbert's hotel is always able to make space for an additional person, because for any given person that gets moved up one space, you can find a new room for that person.

[Keld Denar]

And cancel:
1+0=0

Then reduce:
1=0

There is no cancel function in mathematics. I believe the term you are looking for would be "divide through with a common value" in which case, you have to divide each variable except for the ones separated by * or /, since those properties do not depend on order of operations with other like * or / commands.

And no one replied to my use of wish to get a consumptive field (permanant) and then getting CL up to an arbitrarily high value, permanantly, and then using something like Maw of Chaos (constant AoE damage 25d6 no save) and then zipping around sweeping death and soul destruction for the rest of eternity....

[Lord Zentei]

There is no cancel function in mathematics. I believe the term you are looking for would be "divide through with a common value" in which case, you have to divide each variable except for the ones separated by * or /, since those properties do not depend on order of operations with other like * or / commands.

He means to remove equal constants from both sides of the equation.

You cannot do that with infinite numbers.


And no one replied to my use of wish to get a consumptive field (permanant) and then getting CL up to an arbitrarily high value, permanantly, and then using something like Maw of Chaos (constant AoE damage 25d6 no save) and then zipping around sweeping death and soul destruction for the rest of eternity....

He would still have a limited lifespan, which means he dies eventually. And the OP requires 20th level in any case -- is he allowed to level up?

[joe kickass]

will the monks do somthing stupid like say try to jump a 300 foot wide 400000 foot deep hole to kill the wizard?

[Armads]

He would still have a limited lifespan, which means he dies eventually. And the OP requires 20th level in any case -- is he allowed to level up?

Elan, warforged. Both are immortal anyway.

[Green Bean]

He would still have a limited lifespan, which means he dies eventually. And the OP requires 20th level in any case -- is he allowed to level up?

Unless he makes an Elan wizard. Maximum age: N/A

[Lord Zentei]

Elan, warforged. Both are immortal anyway.

Ah, non-Core races FTW.

EDIT: but is he allowed to level up to accomplish lussmanj's plan? The OP didn't say...

[Keld Denar]

Ah, non-Core races FTW.

EDIT: but is he allowed to level up to accomplish lussmanj's plan? The OP didn't say...

Ah, but he is not leveling up. If you read the desciption of consumptive field, it gives you CL bumps when foes are killed around you (and a str bonus, but that's relatively moot, unless you want to start making epic jump checks) so whenever your Maw kills a monk within the radius of you consumptive field, you would gain a +1 CL bump, which would last the duration of the consumpive field (permanant). The things you can do with an arbitrarily high CL are absurd. You can get +CL to any skill check (via lim wish Divine Insight). If you can find some spell that swaps your str and int scores, you'll have an int that is so high, gods will need nat 20s to save. Hell, you can even cast rounds/level spells that have durations of days or weeks! And the more gobos you suck up, the higher your CL gets. I don't even think you'd have to be consious for this to work. The gobos would charge, get struck down by the Maw, and have their souls eaten by the consumptive field, all the while you are asleep. And Maw of Chaos has no save for the damage, and 25d6 kills all level 2 monks, even on minimum damage. This should work, given enough time.

EDIT: And if I was allowed to level up, even just to level 21, I would take epic spellcasting, then lim wish myself a Divine Insight to add my CL to my spellcraft check, and make ludacrisly high spellcraft DC epic spells of goblin slaying.

Seriously, what can't you accomplish with an arbitrarily high CL?

[Jack_Simth]

He means to remove equal constants from both sides of the equation.

You cannot do that with infinite numbers.
Yet that's essentially what Hilbert is doing when everyone moves up one room to make room for the new guy.

The point of the exercise is that you can't do that.

IF infinities of the same order are mathematically equal
THEN the above proof that 0 = 1 works

0 != 1.

Therefore, infinities of the same order are not mathematically equal, and Herbert can't move everyone up one room in order to accommodate another guest.

[Lord Zentei]

<goes back to review post> Ah, splashbooks. Gotta love to hate them.

But Wish is not on the list of spells that can be made permanent... :smallconfused:



Yet that's essentially what Hilbert is doing when everyone moves up one room to make room for the new guy.

The point of the exercise is that you can't do that.

IF infinities of the same order are mathematically equal
THEN the above proof that 0 = 1 works

0 != 1.

Therefore, infinities of the same order are not mathematically equal, and Herbert can't move everyone up one room in order to accommodate another guest.

No, because you cannot simply cancel two infinite numbers just like that.

[Jack_Simth]

No, because you cannot simply cancel two infinite numbers just like that.
If they're mathematically equal it's basic symbol manipulation.

If A + B = B, then A + B - B = B - B, and thus, A = 0 by necessity.

A and B are arbitrary symbols. It doesn't matter what you put there.

Fundamentally, it's exactly what Hilbert is doing. If the two infinities are not mathematically equal, you can't do the subtraction because the B on the left is not the same B on the right. If the two infinities are mathematically equal, then 1 = 0 by necessity.

You're right - you can't cancel them like that - because they're not equal; if they were equal, you could, but they're not, so you can't - which is my point. Proof by contradiction, as it were.

[Lord Zentei]

If they're mathematically equal it's basic symbol manipulation.

If A + B = B, then A + B - B = B - B, and thus, A = 0 by necessity.

A and B are arbitrary symbols. It doesn't matter what you put there.

Fundamentally, it's exactly what Hilbert is doing. If the two infinities are not mathematically equal, you can't do the subtraction because the B on the left is not the same B on the right. If the two infinities are mathematically equal, then 1 = 0 by necessity.

You're right - you can't cancel them like that - because they're not equal; if they were equal, you could, but they're not, so you can't - which is my point. Proof by contradiction, as it were.

The bolded bit is what I object to. There is a similar proof that leads to 1=2, through the ratio of two infinities being an undefined number, and yet another that asserts that ∞ - ∞ is undefined.

However, it does not limit the possibility of shifting the occupants as Hilbert describes. For that to happen, you need to be able to find someone who cannot gain a room. Incidentally, it really doesn't prevent the previously described mapping of goblin monks from a plane to a volume either...

[Jack_Simth]

The bolded bit is what I object to. There is a similar proof that leads to 1=2, through the ratio of two infinities being an undefined number, and yet another that asserts that ∞ - ∞ is undefined.

All those problems vanish if you start treating infinity like another constant (A != A + 1). It just leaves you with the issue that Hilbert can't shift the occupants in his hotel around, is all. And really, why is that an issue? We've already conceived infinities that we know are not equal by way of their order; why is it so hard to imagine infinities that are not equal by a discrete amount?


However, it does not limit the possibility of shifting the occupants as Hilbert describes. For that to happen, you need to be able to find someone who cannot gain a room.
If we look at the people one at a time, anyone who attempts to move cannot, because their target room is currently occupied. No one person can change rooms. It's only when they all move at once that you can even conceivably get the "paradoxes" describe in Hilbert's hotel.

Incidentally, it really doesn't prevent the previously described mapping of goblin monks from a plane to a space either...No - but while you can arrange the monks in such a way that there is no arbitrary distance on a plane (or in a volume, or in a hypervolume) in which you'll be outside the range of the monks, the available volume grows faster - as X approaches infinity, X^2 > X (for X > 1). It's the overall monk density that the Wizard needs to worry about - and at that, it's mostly the local monk density.

[Lord Zentei]

All those problems vanish if you start treating infinity like another constant (A != A + 1). It just leaves you with the issue that Hilbert can't shift the occupants in his hotel around, is all. And really, why is that an issue? We've already conceived infinities that we know are not equal by way of their order; why is it so hard to imagine infinities that are not equal by a discrete amount?

If we look at the people one at a time, anyone who attempts to move cannot, because their target room is currently occupied. No one person can change rooms. It's only when they all move at once that you can even conceivably get the "paradoxes" describe in Hilbert's hotel.

That does not limit the ability of the hotel to make such shifts if you allow a room to temporarily contain more than one person: as soon as a room includes two people, one must leave during the following time increment.


No - but while you can arrange the monks in such a way that there is no arbitrary distance on a plane (or in a volume, or in a hypervolume) in which you'll be outside the range of the monks, the available volume grows faster - as X approaches infinity, X^2 > X (for X > 1). It's the overall monk density that the Wizard needs to worry about - and at that, it's mostly the local monk density.

Using limits? Neglecting the above, a couple of points here:

By this you seem to be assuming by default how fast the number of monks grows has been decided as being linear.
I assumed the criterion that the monks get to decide the initial deployment.

[Jack_Simth]

That does not limit the ability of the hotel to make such shifts if you allow a room to temporarily contain more than one person: as soon as a room includes two people, one must leave during the following time increment.

In which case, you have an infinite time required.

Or, to put it another way, shifting everyone one room has the same effect as shifting the first person infinity rooms - neither can be done. Both require an infinite amount of distance be traveled to complete the operation (one is a move by one room for an infinite number of guests, the other by an infinite number of rooms by one guest), and the operation must complete before Hilbert can accept new guests (otherwise, he currently has guests that do not have rooms).


Using limits? Neglecting the above, a couple of points here:

By this you seem to be assuming by default how fast the number of monks grows has been decided as being linear.
That is the default infinity, is it not?


I assumed the criterion that the monks get to decide the initial deployment.
Including where the Wizard starts? Why then not start him completely immersed in lava and have the monks win by default?

The overall monk density makes the difference.

[Lord Zentei]

In which case, you have an infinite time required.

Or, to put it another way, shifting everyone one room has the same effect as shifting the first person infinity rooms - neither can be done. Both require an infinite amount of distance be traveled to complete the operation (one is a move by one room for an infinite number of guests, the other by an infinite number of rooms by one guest), and the operation must complete before Hilbert can accept new guests (otherwise, he currently has guests that do not have rooms).

That the operation takes an infinite amount of time is inevitable if you don't permit the shifting to be done simultaneously. But that it takes an infinite amount of time doesn't change the fact that you can never run into an impasse. Moreover, you don't need to complete the operation completely before new guests arrive, you only need to shift someone from the first room to allow each new occupant in turn.


That is the default infinity, is it not?

It is? If you claim that all infinities are not equal, then you cannot claim that the density of monks will definitely be supportive of your conclusion if all we know is that they are "infinite" in number.


Including where the Wizard starts? Why then not start him completely immersed in lava and have the monks win by default?

No, they select where they deploy in relation to the wizard.

[Jack_Simth]

That the operation takes an infinite amount of time is inevitable if you don't permit the shifting to be done simultaneously. But that it takes an infinite amount of time doesn't change the fact that you can never run into an impasse. Moreover, you don't need to complete the operation completely before new guests arrive, you only need to shift someone from the first room to allow each new occupant in turn.

In which case, you always have somebody that doesn't have a room.... which would indicate that there aren't enough, wouldn't it? You can do the same shifts on a finite set clock system if you permit that.

Seriously, if they only real objection you have to treating infinity as a constant much like others is that it causes some changes to a theoretical scenario that's commonly thought absurd anyway, while doing so solves some quirks of the number system (like with the 1=0 I mentioned, or the 1=2 you mentioned), why maintain that infinities of the same order are equal? What does it profit you?


It is? If you claim that all infinities are not equal, then you cannot claim that the density of monks will definitely be supportive of your conclusion if all we know is that they are "infinite" in number.

True - there's insufficient data in the scenario to properly paint it - either for formulating a Wizard defense, or for formulating a monk attack.


No, they select where they deploy in relation to the wizard.
Oh, so the wizard deploys on a plane that is lethally hostile to the monks (the plane of water, maybe) in a location such that they can't instantaneously attack in sufficient numbers to bring him down, and then leave (Quickened Plane Shift, perhaps). The infinity of monks die due to environmental hazards to which the Wizard can immunize himself.

[Talic]

Next theorem, monks win.

1) Infinite Level 2 monks have an brawl against each other.
2) An infinite amount of them make level 20 before any of the options given thus far kill them (assuming they're smart enough to stay away from that big glowy sphere, which I'll say is a relative given, after the first 10,000 run in and are never seen again).

3) Of those infinite gobbos, an infinite amount had a high intelligence, and an infinite amount had a high wisdom, and an infinite amount had a high charisma.

4) Of those with high mental stats, an infinite number chose sorceror, wizard, druid, or cleric for their extra levels.

5) Can the wizard defeat an infinite number of Goblins who are either Monk2/Wiz18, Monk2/Clr18, Monk2/Druid18, or Monk2/Sor18?? I'm gonna say that if even 1% of them are played intelligently (which, if you're doing the math, is an infinite number of each), then gobbos win.

[Talic]

And just to let you know, infinity is not something that can arbitrarily add and subtract to make a non-infinite number.

If both A and B each independantly equal infinity, then A-B is both infinity and negative infinity.

Consider this.

A=2X
thus
A/2 = X
thus
X = Infinity/2, which is, of course, also Infinity.
thus
A=X.
thus
A=X and A=2X, where A != 0.
thus
The whole thing fails a proof, though every step was done correctly.

Thus, we can say that infinity is made up of an innumerable infinities, and thus is not a number (which is, in reality, nothing more than a system of measuring things), but a concept of the immeasurable.

Standard tried and true mathematic principles fail when faced with infinity. New ones need to be formulated. And it's obvious that nobody here is using them, as they don't really apply. Infinity isn't used to quantify. It's used to qualify the unquantifiable.

[Armads]

Next theorem, monks win.

1) Infinite Level 2 monks have an brawl against each other.
2) An infinite amount of them make level 20 before any of the options given thus far kill them (assuming they're smart enough to stay away from that big glowy sphere, which I'll say is a relative given, after the first 10,000 run in and are never seen again).

3) Of those infinite gobbos, an infinite amount had a high intelligence, and an infinite amount had a high wisdom, and an infinite amount had a high charisma.

4) Of those with high mental stats, an infinite number chose sorceror, wizard, druid, or cleric for their extra levels.

5) Can the wizard defeat an infinite number of Goblins who are either Monk2/Wiz18, Monk2/Clr18, Monk2/Druid18, or Monk2/Sor18?? I'm gonna say that if even 1% of them are played intelligently (which, if you're doing the math, is an infinite number of each), then gobbos win.

Wizard's counter strategy:
Wizard finds stuff to kill and then kills them all, becoming a Wizard 20/Cleric 21. He uses epic spellcasting to kill all the monks.

[Talic]

Wizard's counter strategy:
Wizard finds stuff to kill and then kills them all, becoming a Wizard 20/Cleric 21. He uses epic spellcasting to kill all the monks.

All strategies thus far had the wizard kickin' back and drinking a cold one in an MMM or alternate plane. Note how nobody paid attention. The infinite other gobbo monks could still be charging the globe, and this infinite brawl could be occuring 2 miles underground halfway around the world. How, in that case, would the wizard even know what to look for, much less where to look, to devise a counter-strategy?

All methods began with a casual disregard for the gobbos, beyond throwing something, or whacking him with a fist. In order to make a counter strategy, one must know the strategy. To react to something with out-of-character information is called meta, and it's generally frowned upon.

Chances are, the first time that he'd know something was wrong was when he teleported back to his sphere of doom, to find the whole thing was dispelled away, and whoops, he was just Disjuncted 10 times, and disintigrated 500 times and finger of death'd 500 times, and every other nasty ranged spell you can think of a few times for good measure.

Now, it's possible that a couple would leave the brawl early, but, seeing as 14 encounters of an equal CR = 1 level, and that each equal level monk is actually a CR 2 higher, you're looking at 12 kills = 1 level. You could have an infinite number of those Level 20's in a few days. You simply need 12^18 goblins per level 20, we'll make it 12^20 to account for over 99% inefficiency, and it's easy enough to get. Assuming an infinite number of goblins get this idea, an infinite number of groups will achieve level 20 in the earliest possible time, which will be less time than most characters would take to get to level 21. This would then mean that even if the wizard DID know by some fluke that the goblins were killing each other, and didn't think it was just more gobbo infighting, he'd still not likely have enough TIME to do anything other than prepare a 48 hour defense against infinite level 20's.

[Armads]

While the monks are busy whacking each other, the wizard will just go kill stuff and level up. He won't spend all his time in his MMM.

[Talic]

While the monks are busy whacking each other, the wizard will just go kill stuff and level up. He won't spend all his time in his MMM.

Did you READ what I posted? 48 hours. That's what he's got to level. After that, there's an army of 20th level characters out for his blood. The monks create their own encounters and XP at a dizzying rate. The wizard has to search out his CR20-40's. And he has to win them all. It doesn't matter which of those 12^20 gobbos makes it, any one is fine. The wizard has to survive 20 levels worth of challenges in 2 days. Not likely.

As I said, even if he knew, which he likely wouldn't for at least 12 hours, he has 48 hours from start of slaughter until the army of gobbo 20's hits him and pops him like a grape.

[Demented]

It's not a challenge if the other guy doesn't fight back. (Unless he is somehow challenging you by refusing to fight back, such as blocking a critical doorway, though I'm sure the challenge rating goes way down in that instance.) So the goblins would have to be wacking eachother to reach level 20, and only those monks that managed to completely avoid damage through 20 levels of fair melee combat would come out on top.

Of course, there'd still be an infinite number of those statistically-absurd level 20 goblin monks in an essentially non-variant amount of time. Oh wait, they need to cross-class to wizard, don't they? Alright then, 18 levels of constant, barely-fair melee combat, perhaps with a little casting here and there as they acquire new spell slots upon leveling, if they even recieve levels in mid-combat. Thus yielding an infinite number of wizard 18/monk 2 goblins, though you'd really only need one 17th-level wizard goblin to cast Wish.

At which point, the wiley 20th level wizard gets to point out two things:

1. The original question involved him specifically killing 2nd level goblin monks, not monk 2/wizard 17 goblins.

2. Because of him, an infinite number of 2nd level monk goblins killed eachother just to level up once, thus accomplishing the original objective in spades.

[Talic]

It's not a challenge if the other guy doesn't fight back. (Unless he is somehow challenging you by refusing to fight back, such as blocking a critical doorway, though I'm sure the challenge rating goes way down in that instance.) So the goblins would have to be wacking eachother to reach level 20, and only those monks that managed to completely avoid damage through 20 levels of fair melee combat would come out on top.

The other guy does fight back. But statistically, there can be gobbos that roll nothing but 20's, and whose opponents roll nothing but 1's. And, if it's possible, then, in an infinite number of chances, it will happen infinite times. These gobbos will emerge out of the deathmatch, on top and powerful.



Of course, there'd still be an infinite number of those statistically-absurd level 20 goblin monks in an essentially non-variant amount of time. Oh wait, they need to cross-class to wizard, don't they? Alright then, 18 levels of constant, barely-fair melee combat, perhaps with a little casting here and there as they acquire new spell slots upon leveling, if they even recieve levels in mid-combat. Thus yielding an infinite number of wizard 18/monk 2 goblins, though you'd really only need one 17th-level wizard goblin to cast Wish.

Again, if it's possible for a goblin to get the lucky 20/1 scenario I listed above, and kill enough gobbos to accomplish this in 48 hours of game time, then it will happen, an infinite number of times.

And, due to the infinite gaming sessions it would take to create this fight, I'd say leveling at the end of each session isn't unreasonable.

Though there won't be any casting. To accomplish this in 48 hours, there can be no spell recovery. No 8 hour rests.



At which point, the wiley 20th level wizard gets to point out two things:

1. The original question involved him specifically killing 2nd level goblin monks, not monk 2/wizard 17 goblins.

Ah, but he didn't kill them when they were. Nobody said they all STAYED 2nd level. There are still an infinite number of level 2 monks who didn't do this, ready and waiting to be killed by the wizard. The wizard just won't be alive to kill them.



2. Because of him, an infinite number of 2nd level monk goblins killed eachother just to level up once, thus accomplishing the original objective in spades.
Now that IS canny. However, for the objective to be met, the WIZARD had to do the killing. That this wizard's mere presence INSPIRED a gobbo death match of epic proportions is irrelevant. The wiz didn't kill them. Small technicality, but the rivers of red blood with green chunks weren't made by him.

I'd tone down the number of deaths to 4,000*12^20, and only have 1,000 of every core full-progression caster, but infinite doesn't work that way. If it can happen, it will, an infinite number of times. Sigh.

On a side note, the infinite dead gobbos would yield infinite loot, which could be used along with diplomacy to entice an epic dragon to eat the wizard. With ketchup.

[Lord Zentei]

In which case, you always have somebody that doesn't have a room.... which would indicate that there aren't enough, wouldn't it? You can do the same shifts on a finite set clock system if you permit that.

Not the same, as there is no inherent limitation to the process that allows rooms to be allocated, unlike in a finite clock system.

Consider the function y = 2x. Though the y value grows faster than x, it does not prevent the function from being a one-to-one function, thus allocating every x coordinate a y coordinate and vice versa. If it is changed to y=3x or y=x, that does not change -- whether you require the points to be shifted simultaneously or incrementally. Then I can state that y=x is the function that maps room numbers to guest list numbers initially; multiplying that function with any constant does not mean that some x coordinates are suddenly without a corresponding y-coordinate (and by extension guests without rooms or vice versa).

Equality of infinite numbers does not mean the same thing as it does for finite ones: despite one number growing faster than another, they can still be completely allocated a 1-1 relationship without any number being left out. That is the reason you cannot simply cancel them like any finite constant.



Seriously, if they only real objection you have to treating infinity as a constant much like others is that it causes some changes to a theoretical scenario that's commonly thought absurd anyway, while doing so solves some quirks of the number system (like with the 1=0 I mentioned, or the 1=2 you mentioned), why maintain that infinities of the same order are equal? What does it profit you?

Nothing really: unless you allow for the infinite monks to set up to allow them the inevitability of gaining the necessary density of attacks from the get go. But this is merely done for amusement, after all.



True - there's insufficient data in the scenario to properly paint it - either for formulating a Wizard defense, or for formulating a monk attack.

Oh, so the wizard deploys on a plane that is lethally hostile to the monks (the plane of water, maybe) in a location such that they can't instantaneously attack in sufficient numbers to bring him down, and then leave (Quickened Plane Shift, perhaps). The infinity of monks die due to environmental hazards to which the Wizard can immunize himself.

To do that makes the scenario trivial to begin with. We are assuming there is a fight going to take place, after all.

[Talic]

Equality of infinite numbers does not mean the same thing as it does for finite ones: despite one number growing faster than another, they can still be completely allocated a 1-1 relationship without any number being left out. That is the reason you cannot simply cancel them like any finite constant.

There is no such thing as equality or inequality of infinites. It's like saying the equality of cheeses. Or the equality of two points in space.

There's no measurable quantity to make the comparison to say that they are or are not equal.

Infinity + Infinity = infinity.
Infinity - Infinity = infinity.
Infinity * Infinity = infinity.
Infinity / Infinity = infinity.



To do that makes the scenario trivial to begin with. We are assuming there is a fight going to take place, after all.

But the burden is on the wizard to do the killing. If the wizard sets up the ultimate killing field, a death trap that kills all monks who walk into it...

It'll kill no gobbos if they decide to take a siesta.

[Lord Zentei]

There is no such thing as equality or inequality of infinites. It's like saying the equality of cheeses. Or the equality of two points in space.

There's no measurable quantity to make the comparison to say that they are or are not equal.

Infinity + Infinity = infinity.
Infinity - Infinity = infinity.
Infinity * Infinity = infinity.
Infinity / Infinity = infinity.

Actually, the second and fourth numbers on your list are "undefined", not infinite.

And yes, it is meaningless to speak of the equality of infinite numbers -- assuming you are mean "equality" in the same sense that you refer to finite numbers being equal. Thus you cannot cancel them like any finite constant. That's what I have been saying.



But the burden is on the wizard to do the killing. If the wizard sets up the ultimate killing field, a death trap that kills all monks who walk into it...

It'll kill no gobbos if they decide to take a siesta.

Really? Perhaps the burden of killing is on him because he is the Defender of the Universe or something. Decepticons have attacked Autobot bases, you know. :smallwink:

(Not that 2nd-level goblin monks are in any way as cool as Decepticons, even if they are infinite in number...)

[dfpiii]

If we're playing an example where time starts with 1st round of combat and continues with every goblin killed being replaced by another goblin willing to die - the wizard must lose. This is the answer to the original question as read.

If we allow the wizard any amount of time to prepare, but presume the goblins do not act other than to attack the wizard (they may think, but they do not learn) then there have been a range of strategies already proposed where the wizard can kill all goblins who present themselves. So the wizard can win, and whether he does depends on whether he implements such a strategy. This is the answer to the question as explained further by the original poster.

If we're playing an example where all players are randomly distributed and time operates normally then, as I said earlier, the wizard has a certain amount of time in which he can win, but after reaching this time he must lose. I said 300 hours, somebody else said 48 hours and I don't know that their figure was any less of a guess than mine.

The key component in this example is time. The wizard will always face all possible counter strategies, but the strategies which can be brought to bare depend on level advancement of his opponents and the minimums associated with these are governed by game mechanics. The wizard can employ only one strategy - as he is only one person.

The wizard's strategy must therefore be successful before the point where an advancing goblin's strategy can be successful. So again, the wizard can win, though so far the only strategies proposed which would allow this include the creation of epic level spells. Pesonally, without more information, I doubt we could agree that there were other solutions. This is the answer to the other problem which has emerged from discussions.

I win. :smallwink:

[Talic]

Really? Perhaps the burden of killing is on him because he is the Defender of the Universe or something. Decepticons have attacked Autobot bases, you know. :smallwink:

(Not that 2nd-level goblin monks are in any way as cool as Decepticons, even if they are infinite in number...)

Burden? Nobody said anything about a burden. Someone asked if he could do it. This sounds like the wizard taking up an idle tuesday challenge and shifting to the plane of infinite goblins.

Though if it were such a noble goal, that better be one tiny chokepoint if a single pris. sphere can stop them all from reaching the rest of the universe.

Oh, and here's how infinity - infinity can be infinity.

Prismatic sphere has a layer which plane shifts. An infinite number of gobbos will fail that save and leave the plane. That's an infinite number of goblins that will not be killed.

Thus, we have an infinite number of goblins, subtract from that an infinite number that are spared by the sphere.

But an infinite number will still die to the other spheres, just as an infinite number will make every save.

So, how many die?

An infinite number less an infinite number teleported yielding infinite deaths

Infinity................-............infinity..........................=... ......infinity

[Eldpollard]

If it's infinity then surely the wizard end up getting bored and give up. No more monks. I just don't care. Leave me to die. I just wanted a normal life, not endlessly slaughtering goblins.

[Talic]

If we're playing an example where time starts with 1st round of combat and continues with every goblin killed being replaced by another goblin willing to die - the wizard must lose. This is the answer to the original question as read.

If we allow the wizard any amount of time to prepare, but presume the goblins do not act other than to attack the wizard (they may think, but they do not learn) then there have been a range of strategies already proposed where the wizard can kill all goblins who present themselves. So the wizard can win, and whether he does depends on whether he implements such a strategy. This is the answer to the question as explained further by the original poster.

If we're playing an example where all players are randomly distributed and time operates normally then, as I said earlier, the wizard has a certain amount of time in which he can win, but after reaching this time he must lose. I said 300 hours, somebody else said 48 hours and I don't know that their figure was any less of a guess than mine.

The key component in this example is time. The wizard will always face all possible counter strategies, but the strategies which can be brought to bare depend on level advancement of his opponents and the minimums associated with these are governed by game mechanics. The wizard can employ only one strategy - as he is only one person.

The wizard's strategy must therefore be successful before the point where an advancing goblin's strategy can be successful. So again, the wizard can win, though so far the only strategies proposed which would allow this include the creation of epic level spells. Pesonally, without more information, I doubt we could agree that there were other solutions. This is the answer to the other problem which has emerged from discussions.

I win. :smallwink:

I went with how long it takes a goblin to kill 216 goblins of his level. The first 12 will yield a level, and if 12 other gobbos did the same, then those next 12 will yield a level, and so on, until 216 gobbos die, and 1 gobbo is level 20. If this happens an infinite number of times, then the answer is, as long as it takes 216 gobbos to die in discrete encounters at the hands of a single gobbo, in a game with immediate post encounter xp and levelling.

Is that 300 hours? Not by any stretch. Might not even be 24. But, assuming 1 every 12 minutes, the goal would be reached in 44 hours.

[Lord Zentei]

Burden? Nobody said anything about a burden.

Someone asked if he could do it. This sounds like the wizard taking up an idle tuesday challenge and shifting to the plane of infinite goblins.

Though if it were such a noble goal, that better be one tiny chokepoint if a single pris. sphere can stop them all from reaching the rest of the universe.

Er, yes. You did. "the burden is on the wizard to do the killing" :smallconfused:


Oh, and here's how infinity - infinity can be infinity.

Prismatic sphere has a layer which plane shifts. An infinite number of gobbos will fail that save and leave the plane. That's an infinite number of goblins that will not be killed.

Thus, we have an infinite number of goblins, subtract from that an infinite number that are spared by the sphere.

But an infinite number will still die to the other spheres, just as an infinite number will make every save.

So, how many die?

An infinite number less an infinite number teleported yielding infinite deaths

Infinity................-............infinity..........................=... ......infinity

And? You can just as easily claim that all the infinite goblins die on the sphere in which case ∞ - ∞ = 0. Only that does not work either:

Go by the axiom that infinity - infinity = 0:

∞ - ∞ = 0

Add the one to both sides of the equation.

1 + ∞ - ∞ = 0 + 1

Since ∞ + 1 = ∞ and 0 + 1 = 1, then we are going to simplify both parts of the equation:

∞ - ∞ = 1


∞ - ∞ is undefined. It is not infinity or any specific real number either. It depends on the set-up.

[dfpiii]

I went with how long it takes a goblin to kill 216 goblins of his level. The first 12 will yield a level, and if 12 other gobbos did the same, then those next 12 will yield a level, and so on, until 216 gobbos die, and 1 gobbo is level 20. If this happens an infinite number of times, then the answer is, as long as it takes 216 gobbos to die in discrete encounters at the hands of a single gobbo, in a game with immediate post encounter xp and levelling.

Is that 300 hours? Not by any stretch. Might not even be 24. But, assuming 1 every 12 minutes, the goal would be reached in 44 hours.

That seems reasonable, given infinite opportunities.

As I said, mine was a guess, but I was factoring in required periods of sleep, eating and necessary "roleplaying". For example, a goblin monk who only knows and kills goblin monks can't just become a wizard. At very least they need to find a blank spellbook, etc. There aren't set minimums for these, but we can presume that these factors do exist and take some amount of time.

However I would not be unhappy saying the minimum time would be substantially less than one week.

[Talic]

Er, yes. You did. "the burden is on the wizard to do the killing" :smallconfused:



And? You can just as easily claim that all the infinite goblins die on the sphere in which case ∞ - ∞ = 0. Only that does not work either:

Go by the axiom that infinity - infinity = 0:

∞ - ∞ = 0

Add the one to both sides of the equation.

1 + ∞ - ∞ = 0 + 1

Since ∞ + 1 = ∞ and 0 + 1 = 1, then we are going to simplify both parts of the equation:

∞ - ∞ = 1


∞ - ∞ is undefined. It is not infinity or any specific real number either. It depends on the set-up.

Which is why I said that basic rules of math break down when faced with a concept that is not a number.

Just to clue you in... Infinity IS an undefined value. It is innumerable. Thus, it's a piece of semantic nonsense.

And you cannot assume that every one would fail. Given an infinite number of attempts, every possible outcome WILL occur an infinite number of times. If an attempt is bound by a finite factor - such as killing 1 wizard - then that is a finite number of attempts, whose value is determined at the wizard's death. But make no mistake... if there is ANY chance of it happening, then it WILL happen, eventually.


And...


That seems reasonable, given infinite opportunities.

As I said, mine was a guess, but I was factoring in required periods of sleep, eating and necessary "roleplaying". For example, a goblin monk who only knows and kills goblin monks can't just become a wizard. At very least they need to find a blank spellbook, etc. There aren't set minimums for these, but we can presume that these factors do exist and take some amount of time.

However I would not be unhappy saying the minimum time would be substantially less than one week.

Assume every level two monk had one spellbook, with a couple spells in it, in his Wealth by level equipment that he started with.

Or if not every, then an infinite number of compatable monks.

Or pre-training built into the backstory.

[dfpiii]

Assume every level two monk had one spellbook, with a couple spells in it, in his Wealth by level equipment that he started with.

Or if not every, then an infinite number of compatable monks.

Or pre-training built into the backstory.

The plane of infinite goblin monks with a wizard background? Now we're just being silly. :smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Demonking]

They can easily afford a Boccob's blessed book. As your plan has them working together.

Plus if they all level up, they'll be no level 2 monks to kill.

[Lord Zentei]

Which is why I said that basic rules of math break down when faced with a concept that is not a number.

You're preaching to the choir here. However, you are incorrect in that it is not a number. It is indeed just that: though it is not a member of the set of reals.



Just to clue you in... Infinity IS an undefined value. It is innumerable. Thus, it's a piece of semantic nonsense.

This is the dumbest statement of all time.



And you cannot assume that every one would fail. Given an infinite number of attempts, every possible outcome WILL occur an infinite number of times. If an attempt is bound by a finite factor - such as killing 1 wizard - then that is a finite number of attempts, whose value is determined at the wizard's death. But make no mistake... if there is ANY chance of it happening, then it WILL happen, eventually.

Indeed. Where the blazes do I assume that every one would fail as far as the OP scenario was concerned?

I posted the above merely to show you that infinity - infinity does not equal infinity.

[Paladin's_Wrath]

What is with all this MATH? Infinity just throws a wrench in the whole thing, to be honest. Any infinite anything is just a strange concept and is impossible, usually.

[Lord Zentei]

What is with all this MATH? Infinity just throws a wrench in the whole thing, to be honest. Any infinite anything is just a strange concept and is impossible, usually.

We include math precisely because of the presence of the infinite number of monks: mathematics can certainly handle infinities. Of course, the way it is done is very much tongue-in-cheek, but that's mostly because of the nature of the scenario. :smallwink:

[Paladin's_Wrath]

Alright I kind of figured that out. Still, my brain explodes at the math :confused:

Still, I maintain that a paladin could destroy an infinite number of, well, pretty much anything. Cuz that's how we are. And don't try to stop us with your 'math', 'logic', and so called 'laws of reality'...

[Jack_Simth]

The whole thing fails a proof, though every step was done correctly.

Thus, we can say that infinity is made up of an innumerable infinities, and thus is not a number (which is, in reality, nothing more than a system of measuring things), but a concept of the immeasurable.

Standard tried and true mathematic principles fail when faced with infinity. New ones need to be formulated. And it's obvious that nobody here is using them, as they don't really apply. Infinity isn't used to quantify. It's used to qualify the unquantifiable.
Right - and if you start treating infinity like an arbitrarily high constant, that goes away - because you can't make this transition:

"X = Infinity/2, which is, of course, also Infinity."

X becomes an infinity (of the same order), but not the same infinity, so you can't make the equality statement at the next step that leads to the contradiction.

It does a lot of things for us.
1) It gets rid of the silly proofs that 1 = 0, that 1 = 2, or similar.
2) It lets us do normal symbol manipulation in our existing framework.
3) It kills Hilbert's Hotel (which is absurd anyway).


Not the same, as there is no inherent limitation to the process that allows rooms to be allocated, unlike in a finite clock system.

You can keep advancing a clock indefinitely (well, until the gears physically wear out or some such, but still...).


Consider the function y = 2x. Though the y value grows faster than x, it does not prevent the function from being a one-to-one function, thus allocating every x coordinate a y coordinate and vice versa. If it is changed to y=3x or y=x, that does not change -- whether you require the points to be shifted simultaneously or incrementally. Then I can state that y=x is the function that maps room numbers to guest list numbers initially; multiplying that function with any constant does not mean that some x coordinates are suddenly without a corresponding y-coordinate (and by extension guests without rooms or vice versa).

Consider the set of all prime numbers (P), and the set of all natural numbers (N).

P is a proper subset of N - that is, for every element in P, that element already exists in N. However, there exists at least one element in N (an infinite number of them, actually...) that does not exist in P. Both are countably infinite, so you can map between the two such that you uniquely identify one with the other on a one-to-one basis... but at the same time, for any arbitrarily large sequential element range E (a subset of I, of the sort {A, A+1, A+2, A+3, ..., A+X}), the intersection of E and N is going to contain at least as many (and often more) members as the intersection of E and P.

Both are infinite sets, but by my count, N is larger than P. When testing elements of I for inclusion, N grows faster than P.


Equality of infinite numbers does not mean the same thing as it does for finite ones: despite one number growing faster than another, they can still be completely allocated a 1-1 relationship without any number being left out. That is the reason you cannot simply cancel them like any finite constant.
Despite the fact that they can map to each other, they aren't the same infinity. If we look at set theory, we can do subtraction with infinite sets that we can define - removing all elements that are in the set of natural numbers from the elements in the set of all integers leaves us with a lot of members - all the negative integers. We are left with an infinite number of elements. The set of all integers contains all the elements in the set of natural numbers, and an infinity more. Yes, you can map them back and forth without a loss of data - but you've also got elements in one that aren't in the other. There's more mapping functions that leave holes in the one than there are that do not.

If we remove all members of the set of integers from the set of natural numbers, we have the empty set, and an infinity of elements that had no match to remove - negative infinity.


Nothing really: unless you allow for the infinite monks to set up to allow them the inevitability of gaining the necessary density of attacks from the get go. But this is merely done for amusement, after all.

As is the argument on the nature of infinities.

Has some curious similarities to the historical arguments on i, incidentally.


To do that makes the scenario trivial to begin with. We are assuming there is a fight going to take place, after all.
As does starting all the monks in a density such that you have an instantaneous black hole right next to the Wizard. As (mostly) does starting the wizard completely surrounded by the monks infinity layers deep in all three dimensions, and arming them with slings and readied actions.

There is insufficient info in the OP to formulate a proper response.

[Lord Zentei]

Right - and if you start treating infinity like an arbitrarily high constant, that goes away - because you can't make this transition:

"X = Infinity/2, which is, of course, also Infinity."

X becomes an infinity (of the same order), but not the same infinity, so you can't make the equality statement at the next step that leads to the contradiction.

It does a lot of things for us.
1) It gets rid of the silly proofs that 1 = 0, that 1 = 2, or similar.
2) It lets us do normal symbol manipulation in our existing framework.
3) It kills Hilbert's Hotel (which is absurd anyway).

Why is Hilbert's Hotel absurd? It only is that if you use intuition applicable to finite numbers.

And you didn't answer the challenge regarding deciding the hotel room numbers with y=x and y=2x functions, both of which are 1-1 relationships leaving no X or Y coordinate unassigned, but one of which nonetheless grows twice as fast as the other, and one of which can be converted into the other by multiplying it with a constant.

[Psiborg]

Infinity = Infinity + 1

which is also

Infinity + 1 = (Infinity + 1) + 1

Well, kinda.

Infinity is a number in the same sense that "X" is a number, and that "Pi" is a number. Infinity is not, however, what is labled as a "real number".

By this very fact, the answer is both "yes" and "no"; leaning more towards "no" due to the simple fact that all that needs to happen for "no" is the wizard dies once at any point in time, unlike "yes" which is a factor more of the wizard's survival than how many monks are killed.

While the wizard cannot realistically kill an infinite amount of monks (because infinite precisely means that there will never be a point where the monks are dead), the wizard can theoretically kill "Infinity - X" monks. This is where Infinity is Infinity, and X is a number (like Infinity, not a "Real Number") approaching but never reaching Infinity.

The amount of monks killed are allways going to be finite, while the amount of monks left is allways going to be infinite regardless of how many are killed.

I do believe, however, that a level 20 wizard (given just a few rounds of preperation, perhaps even as few as one round) can kill a number of level 2 monks that is as close to infinity as possible without actually reaching infinity.

Now, one thing that wasn't covered in the original question is the exact setup. "An infinite amount of 2nd level monks" could as easily mean a monk standing in every available "square" out to infinity to north, south, east and west as it could mean 2nd level monks taking up every available space in the universe/plane, which by the nature of infinity would include the space containing the wizard. The wizard, under the crushing reality of an infinite amount of monks in literally every single direction, is promply crushed out of existance to make room for another infinite number of monks.

That idea, while covering "infinity" nicely, is pretty well outside the d20 rules. So I simply assumed that they were infinite in every direction "cardinal", but not necessarily in every possible direction.

[Enlong]

I've been led to believe that creatures summoned through Gate act on the round they're summoned. So this is how it goes down.

Level 20 Wizard of some ageless race (Elan, Warforged, take yer pick) stands in the center of the battlefield with an ivory statuette of himself. As soon as the first monk attempts to attack him, a Contingency'd Gate opens at the Wizard's feet, transporting him to another plane, specifically, one with infinite space. The Contingency's condition reads "whenever any non-beneficial attack, substance, effect, or area of any possible effect originating from a magical item or scroll comes within X of me, where X = the insert absolute maximum area of effect of an Antimagic Field + 100 feet, except when said attack, effect, substance, or magical item is wielded by me"; therefore, it would be impossible to get near the Wizard with an attack or scroll of Antimagic field without him gateing to the empty plane. Once there, the Wizard casts Gate, and summons a Solar. Under the Wizard's orders, the Solar casts Gate himself to summon another Solar, who casts Gate to summon yet another Solar... and so on and so forth. Eventually, the Wizard has an infinite number of Solars at his command, all acting as his personal army. Next round (hah, like that'll ever come, the players'll die of old age), the Wizard orders the Solars to cast Gate one more time, as a portal back to the fight with the Monks, specifically, an arbitrary height above the Monks, they then step through and hover out of the Monk's fist range, but within bowshot of the Monks. On the 3rd round, an infinite number of Monks win initiative, and realize that they can't do a thing if the Solars are out of fist range, and even if they could, DR 15 means that almost nothing they could possibly have at 2nd level could damage them. An infinite number of Solars also win initiative, but they can do something. An infinite number of Goblinslaying (since we are talking about Goblin Monks and these are Solar's bows) arrows rain down on the infinite number of Monks, an infinite number of monks fail their fort saves and die instantly. The Wizard then transports himself back after casting Overland Flight to look cool, dismisses the Solars without need of payment, sets fire to the goblin corpses, and the player thinks "I didn't really need to be ageless after all."

[Cybren]

What's with all the math soap boxing? to answer the question: Yes, a wizard can. Why? Because that's a dumb idea for an adventure and he'd probably just deck the DM in the face and take his stuff before leaving.


Wizard wins. FATALITY

[Talic]

They can easily afford a Boccob's blessed book. As your plan has them working together.

Plus if they all level up, they'll be no level 2 monks to kill.

No, they're not working together. They're using each other, yes, but it's not teamwork. It's darwinism. Out of every gobbo with a good int score (infinite), there will be an infinite number with spellbooks and pre-training, and an infinite number wihout it.

Same with other class prerequisites. It's an infinite plane of level 2 gobbos of all types.... Provided they are all have 2 levels of monk.

If you want to leave out druid and wizard however, and cleric, you could still have infinite sorcerors, as they're more intuitive on the training.

[Talic]

I've been led to believe that creatures summoned through Gate act on the round they're summoned. So this is how it goes down.

Level 20 Wizard of some ageless race (Elan, Warforged, take yer pick) stands in the center of the battlefield with an ivory statuette of himself. As soon as the first monk attempts to attack him, a Contingency'd Gate opens at the Wizard's feet, transporting him to another plane, specifically, one with infinite space. The Contingency's condition reads "whenever any non-beneficial attack, substance, effect, or area of any possible effect originating from a magical item or scroll comes within X of me, where X = the insert absolute maximum area of effect of an Antimagic Field + 100 feet, except when said attack, effect, substance, or magical item is wielded by me"; therefore, it would be impossible to get near the Wizard with an attack or scroll of Antimagic field without him gateing to the empty plane. Once there, the Wizard casts Gate, and summons a Solar. Under the Wizard's orders, the Solar casts Gate himself to summon another Solar, who casts Gate to summon yet another Solar... and so on and so forth. Eventually, the Wizard has an infinite number of Solars at his command, all acting as his personal army. Next round (hah, like that'll ever come, the players'll die of old age), the Wizard orders the Solars to cast Gate one more time, as a portal back to the fight with the Monks, specifically, an arbitrary height above the Monks, they then step through and hover out of the Monk's fist range, but within bowshot of the Monks. On the 3rd round, an infinite number of Monks win initiative, and realize that they can't do a thing if the Solars are out of fist range, and even if they could, DR 15 means that almost nothing they could possibly have at 2nd level could damage them. An infinite number of Solars also win initiative, but they can do something. An infinite number of Goblinslaying (since we are talking about Goblin Monks and these are Solar's bows) arrows rain down on the infinite number of Monks, an infinite number of monks fail their fort saves and die instantly. The Wizard then transports himself back after casting Overland Flight to look cool, dismisses the Solars without need of payment, sets fire to the goblin corpses, and the player thinks "I didn't really need to be ageless after all."

infinite 2 monk/18 sorcerors use time stop, dimension door, antimagic field. They get the 18 sorceror levels as outlined on page 7 of this thread.

Or dimensional anchor.
Or heck, lightning bolt, since the spell enters range at the same time it deals damage, and thus, the gate would transport a smoking husk of wizard.

Or the gobbos use collective wish's to set up permanent anti-magic fields over every other part of the plane, and then stay over 1 mile inside them at all times. If the wiz wants to kill the gobbos, as he must to fulfill the challenge, he must go to them.

Or you use 12^25 gobbos, you can get an epic sorceror, who uses permanency and greater consumptive field to get an epic spell of doom to kill every solar and wizard in existance.

[Emperor Tippy]

Talic, there is an edit button. Use it and stop double posting.

Next, you say that these level 2 monks are now monk 2/wizard 18 creatures. Fine with me.

My wizard is a wizard 20/Archmage 5/ IotSFV 7/ Incantatrix 1,000,000 / Cleric 50 / Druid 50/ Planar Shepard 1,000,000 / Psion 1,000,000 with a Divine Rank of 1,000,000.

My wizard casts a custom epic spell that kills every creature except him in the multiverse and disintegrates those creatures remains.

I win. My Wizard 20 has killed an infinite number of level 2 goblin monks.


And if you don't like that idea, you say it takes 48 hours for the goblins to reach level 20. Fine. My wizard casts Arcane Genesis and makes a custom demiplane where time flows backward in regards to the material plane at a rate of 1 Demiplane Second equals -1,000,000 Material Plane Years. I travel back in time to before the first goblin is born and destroy its creator.

Or I cast gate and summon an infinite number of titans to me and have them just chain lighting every goblin in the universe (it takes me less than 5 rounds to your 48 hours).

Or I gate in a dread wraith and dominate it. At which point I send it out to create more wraiths with orders to not attack me, kill anything they see, and pass the orders on. My wraiths increase exponentially. Each wraith creates 1 other wraith per minute. After 2 hours I will have 1.3292279957849158729038070602803 * 10^36 wraiths under my command, and the number increases by an order of magnitude every 4 miniutes. Now my wizard uses Permanent Amnesia on the Dread Wraith to ensure his permanent loyalty.

I have been staying within the generally accepted bounds of the challenge, no leveling up, no pooling resources by the monks to buy items that far exceed their WBL, no utterly broken tricks on either side (such as infinite titans), etc. But it you won't accept the same constraints then don't expect me to. If you want me to go all out with just a straight level 20 wizard and I become the supreme being in the multiverse and wipe everything else from existence (Pun-Pun, which the wizard can do in the first round if built for it).

I would much prefer to stay in the bounds of the challenge and since no one has offered a credible way for any number of level 2 monks to defeat the wizard I offered I am assuming that you concede that the wizard wins.

[Hectonkhyres]

Hm. My first instinct would be to see if there is any way to collapse the entire monk-infested chunk of plane into nothing. Even just calling up a god and telling him what is going on should do the trick. After all, they don't want the Infinite Plane of Monks any more than they would want another Infinite Planes of the Abyss. Half the pantheons in existence would hop on this thing like a morbidly obese woman on the last pastry in the box.

And thats actually a nice idea. Bud the whole place off into a new plane and make it the new highway between Infernal and Abyssal realms. Further complicate the blood war and tie the green tide up with an infinite amount of abominations who have been trying the same trick they are for a whole lot longer.

Or, if you don't want the hassle, pop the whole thing out the door into the Far Realms. The goddamn bacteria out there eat three infinities and a bowl of wheaties just for breakfast. And then they wash it all down with a tall glass of Chuck Norris.

[Talic]

Talic, there is an edit button. Use it and stop double posting.

Next, you say that these level 2 monks are now monk 2/wizard 18 creatures. Fine with me.

My wizard is a wizard 20/Archmage 5/ IotSFV 7/ Incantatrix 1,000,000 / Cleric 50 / Druid 50/ Planar Shepard 1,000,000 / Psion 1,000,000 with a Divine Rank of 1,000,000.

My wizard casts a custom epic spell that kills every creature except him in the multiverse and disintegrates those creatures remains.

I win. My Wizard 20 has killed an infinite number of level 2 goblin monks.


And if you don't like that idea, you say it takes 48 hours for the goblins to reach level 20. Fine. My wizard casts Arcane Genesis and makes a custom demiplane where time flows backward in regards to the material plane at a rate of 1 Demiplane Second equals -1,000,000 Material Plane Years. I travel back in time to before the first goblin is born and destroy its creator.

Or I cast gate and summon an infinite number of titans to me and have them just chain lighting every goblin in the universe (it takes me less than 5 rounds to your 48 hours).

Or I gate in a dread wraith and dominate it. At which point I send it out to create more wraiths with orders to not attack me, kill anything they see, and pass the orders on. My wraiths increase exponentially. Each wraith creates 1 other wraith per minute. After 2 hours I will have 1.3292279957849158729038070602803 * 10^36 wraiths under my command, and the number increases by an order of magnitude every 4 miniutes. Now my wizard uses Permanent Amnesia on the Dread Wraith to ensure his permanent loyalty.

I have been staying within the generally accepted bounds of the challenge, no leveling up, no pooling resources by the monks to buy items that far exceed their WBL, no utterly broken tricks on either side (such as infinite titans), etc. But it you won't accept the same constraints then don't expect me to. If you want me to go all out with just a straight level 20 wizard and I become the supreme being in the multiverse and wipe everything else from existence (Pun-Pun, which the wizard can do in the first round if built for it).

I would much prefer to stay in the bounds of the challenge and since no one has offered a credible way for any number of level 2 monks to defeat the wizard I offered I am assuming that you concede that the wizard wins.

That's the problem with assumptions. They'll make a fool of you every time. You have 1 wizard. You outlined his actions. Ok, that's all well and good, provided the wizard didn't truly understand the concept of infinite gobbos - which you thoughtfully built into your wizard, thanks for that, by the way - then he'll lose every time.

That's because every single gobbo thing that can happen will. Infinite really is just that. You get one. One. That's it. If he doesn't think to look, and doesn't think to figure out what can happen, then he just died because he didn't think.

As far as the first gobbo, if they're infinite, there is no first, since no gobbo could have the infinite kids required to change the finite number to a non finite one. The gobbos always were. Their plane sprung into existence with infinite gobbos.

Though you just did outline another thing the GOBBOS could do. Time regression to the finite wizard's birth and kill his parents. No wizard, no challenge.

Odd, you're hyped as being something nearly mythical here. I'd figure with such status would come a basic respect for others. I guess nobody's perfect. Next time, don't ask for people to brainstorm ways to stop your idea, if the only defense you'll fall back on is that you could have used an idea that is more cheese. Your idea isn't. Less cheese trumped by more cheese. Basic tenet of powergaming D&D, which is essentially what this challenge is. Asking you to DO something mechanical, which is the core of every powergamer's wet dreams.

On a side note, for the dread wraith thing, even if you get 1,000,000,000*(1,000,000,000^1,000,000,000) more each second, you are still never going to reach infinite.

If you really want to have a way to defeat the infinite killing trap presented earlier, here it is: every gobbo runs from it. The wizard will never get an arbitrary amount of gobbos when the infinite enjine isn't mindlessly walked into. If he does go out, and can stay permanently above the gobbos, who all must remain level two and act stupid like good goblins should, just standing there to die, or perhaps milling about in terror, then the wizard should be able to kill an arbitrarily large number merely by remaining 900 feet above them, dropping a few fireballs every day, after, or course, crafting the items he'd need to survive in a variety of hostile environments, including space, which will eventually be reached if the bodies aren't disposed of. Then again, I don't think it outside the bounds of a 9th level researched spell to disintigrate every inanimate corpse within 1 mile... Or even to behave like a fireball that disintigrated anything killed by it.

[graymachine]

In regards to the OP the wizard would die immediately. Actually to clarify, he would die in the smallest possible division of time that could ever be devised. Since we have infinite opponents here (their race and class are actually irrelevant) all possible outcomes are expressed immediately. Since there are an infinite number of results there are, therefore, an infinite number of resulting ways the wizard in question dies, regardless of his abilities; any less and we wouldn't be dealing with an infinite number of opponents. Now, if we're talking about a number that is actually discussible, say 1 million, or several billion, or some such, then it is a very different topic.

[Emperor Tippy]

That's the problem with assumptions. They'll make a fool of you every time. You have 1 wizard. You outlined his actions. Ok, that's all well and good, provided the wizard didn't truly understand the concept of infinite gobbos - which you thoughtfully built into your wizard, thanks for that, by the way - then he'll lose every time.

That's because every single gobbo thing that can happen will. Infinite really is just that. You get one. One. That's it. If he doesn't think to look, and doesn't think to figure out what can happen, then he just died because he didn't think.
.....
No level 2 goblin monk, alone or as part of a group, can harm my wizard. Under the D&D RAW it is possible for the wizard to make it impossible for the goblins to harm him. A billion, trillion level 2 goblin monks could roll nothing but straight 20's for a million years and never even hurt my wizard.


As far as the first gobbo, if they're infinite, there is no first, since no gobbo could have the infinite kids required to change the finite number to a non finite one. The gobbos always were. Their plane sprung into existence with infinite gobbos.

Though you just did outline another thing the GOBBOS could do. Time regression to the finite wizard's birth and kill his parents. No wizard, no challenge.
So an infinite number of level 2 goblin monks just spring into existence. Fine. I use any one of the other possible ways to kill them. Such as making a plane where 1 trillion material plane years pass for every demiplane second. An infinite number will be killed by me indirectly.

And where are you getting thsi foolish idea that level 2 goblin monks can manipulate time or create demiplanes? Because for every level you get to raise a goblin monk I get to raise the level of my wizard, and with you raising an infinite number of goblins 18 levels my wizard is level 20+(18*the number of goblins you have raised). And at level 21 my wizard gets epic spell casting. When that happens you lose. With epic spellcasting I can make spells that are multiversal absolutes. I can rewrite the laws of the multiverse so that every goblin that ever has, ever will, or is alive is destroyed. Numbers don't matter.


Odd, you're hyped as being something nearly mythical here. I'd figure with such status would come a basic respect for others. I guess nobody's perfect. Next time, don't ask for people to brainstorm ways to stop your idea, if the only defense you'll fall back on is that you could have used an idea that is more cheese. Your idea isn't. Less cheese trumped by more cheese. Basic tenet of powergaming D&D, which is essentially what this challenge is. Asking you to DO something mechanical, which is the core of every powergamer's wet dreams.
Ask around, I'm an overbearing, irreverent, disrespectful, ass who will argue any point with anyone and the list of people who's opinions I respect is very short. Fax Celestis, Jack Mann, The Logic Ninja, BassetKing, and a few others.

And I was asking for people to come up with a way around what I proposed under the generally accepted terms of the challenge. You and a few others have decided to use various means to level up the monks or pool their wealth, things not allowed under the generally accepted terms of the agreement. Thats fine with me, I won't constrain myself to those rules anymore. And since no one has so far offered a way to defeat my previously posted build under teh generally accepted terms of thsi challenge then I am saying that I have proven that the wizard wins. If you want to alter those terms feel free, I have altered my wizard exactly how you altered the monks and I have won again.

Nothing in the challenge specifics the wizards race or Divine Rank. So my wizard is a Divine Rank 1,000,000 uberdeity. Or perhaps I will go with a Divine Rank 0 Great Wrym Prismatic Dragon with 20 wizard levels. Or maybe a 288 HD Iron Colossus with an Int score of over 90 (nice 1 point per 4 HD). Or perhaps a 140 HD Hecatoncheires.


On a side note, for the dread wraith thing, even if you get 1,000,000,000*(1,000,000,000^1,000,000,000) more each second, you are still never going to reach infinite.
You fail to grasp the concept of multiple, separate, unequal, infinites. I can kill an infinite number of monks and an infinite number can still exist.


If you really want to have a way to defeat the infinite killing trap presented earlier, here it is: every gobbo runs from it. The wizard will never get an arbitrary amount of gobbos when the infinite enjine isn't mindlessly walked into.
Given an Infinite amount of time and infinite number of the infinite hoard of level 2 goblin monks will walk into the killign trap and an infinite number of those will die. None of those infinites need be equal.


If he does go out, and can stay permanently above the gobbos, who all must remain level two and act stupid like good goblins should, just standing there to die, or perhaps milling about in terror, then the wizard should be able to kill an arbitrarily large number merely by remaining 900 feet above them, dropping a few fireballs every day, after, or course, crafting the items he'd need to survive in a variety of hostile environments, including space, which will eventually be reached if the bodies aren't disposed of. Then again, I don't think it outside the bounds of a 9th level researched spell to disintigrate every inanimate corpse within 1 mile... Or even to behave like a fireball that disintigrated anything killed by it.
With an infinite number of goblins you can't remain on the same plane, you must go to a plane on which goblins don't exist and then keep them away. A wizard can do that. Or do any of the other things that make you untouchable by the goblins.

[graymachine]

Apparently, I was late to the punch, given Talic's response. I would further postulate that the wizard isn't even saved by goblins fleeing as there are infinite goblins. Assuming the this infinite goblins genesis occurs sometime in the wizards life, making it possible for the wizard to exist prior to this Infinity Goblin, then the generation of infinite physical objects would create infinite mass within an assumably finite universe, which would collapse space-time, going backwards and forwards in time. This hypothetical universe would cease to exist before its formation.

[Emperor Tippy]

Apparently, I was late to the punch, given Talic's response. I would further postulate that the wizard isn't even saved by goblins fleeing as there are infinite goblins. Assuming the this infinite goblins genesis occurs sometime in the wizards life, making it possible for the wizard to exist prior to this Infinity Goblin, then the generation of infinite physical objects would create infinite mass within an assumably finite universe, which would collapse space-time, going backwards and forwards in time. This hypothetical universe would cease to exist before its formation.

Again someone is failing to grasp that you can have multiple, independent things that are all infinite but are not all equal.

You can have a perfectly flat plane made up of an infinite number of 5 foot squares and if you place a goblin in every other square you have an infinite number of goblins.

Infinity is an undefined number and can be used to describe, multiple, unequal, sets.

See my above post, quoted blow for your convenience.

Given an infinite amount of time an infinite number of the infinite hoard of level 2 goblin monks will walk into the killing trap and an infinite number of those will die. None of those infinites need be equal.

[graymachine]

.....
You fail to grasp the concept of multiple, separate, unequal, infinites.


Ummm.... What? Infinities, cannot be anything but equal. In fact, to even suggest that there can be separate infinities is to misinterpret the word as a defined number. You cannot have separate, infinite things; by necessity they would have to be the same thing. This is tautological. The only thing that this kind of statement implies is a situation in which language no longer has any meaning.

[tyckspoon]

Ummm.... What? Infinities, cannot be anything but equal. In fact, to even suggest that there can be separate infinities is to misinterpret the word as a defined number. You cannot have separate, infinite things; by necessity they would have to be the same thing. This is tautological. The only thing that this kind of statement implies is a situation in which language no longer has any meaning.

I must politely suggest you read the rest of the thread, a good deal of which concerns the properties of infinities and how you can in fact have unequal ones. An inexact but clarifying analogy could be provided if you still need one.

[graymachine]

Again someone is failing to grasp that you can have multiple, independent things that are all infinite but are not all equal.

You can have a perfectly flat plane made up of an infinite number of 5 foot squares and if you place a goblin in every other square you have an infinite number of goblins.

Ummm... yeah, you can do that, and your number of 5 foot squares is equal to your number of goblins, by necessity. This number happens to be infinity. I by no means intend to be offensive, but the concept of non-equal, separate infinities comes off as a little insane to me, given that we are supposedly sharing a common language in which "blue" means the same thing to you as it does to me.

[tyckspoon]

Ummm... yeah, you can do that, and your number of 5 foot squares is equal to your number of goblins, by necessity. This number happens to be infinity. I by no means intend to be offensive, but the concept of non-equal, separate infinities comes off as a little insane to me, given that we are supposedly sharing a common language in which "blue" means the same thing to you as it does to me.

Well, yes. The mathematical properties of infinities are weird. Much like quantum mechanics and phenomena. This does not mean they are wrong.

[graymachine]

Granted, tyckspoon, but if he is operating with that kind of specialized language that people here, for the most part don't have access to, then it is functionally irrelevant without an authority on the matter. My point is that there is no logically feasible finite "solution" (to crouch this in such terms) to an infinite "problem." There are a few handy paradoxes available, but all paradoxes come out with the "unsolvability" being poorly defined premises. Plus, advanced mathematics being "weird" is simply a red herring.

[Talic]

.....
No level 2 goblin monk, alone or as part of a group, can harm my wizard. Under the D&D RAW it is possible for the wizard to make it impossible for the goblins to harm him. A billion, trillion level 2 goblin monks could roll nothing but straight 20's for a million years and never even hurt my wizard.

And D&D RAW allow for level 2 monks to earn XP, right? My original method of defeating the wizard stands.


So an infinite number of level 2 goblin monks just spring into existence. Fine. I use any one of the other possible ways to kill them. Such as making a plane where 1 trillion material plane years pass for every demiplane second. An infinite number will be killed by me indirectly.

False. You outlive them, you don't kill them. There's a difference. Each and every goblin lives life to a ripe old age and dies of natural causes without your interference. All you did was press fast forward with a high level spell.


And where are you getting thsi foolish idea that level 2 goblin monks can manipulate time or create demiplanes? Because for every level you get to raise a goblin monk I get to raise the level of my wizard, and with you raising an infinite number of goblins 18 levels my wizard is level 20+(18*the number of goblins you have raised). And at level 21 my wizard gets epic spell casting. When that happens you lose. With epic spellcasting I can make spells that are multiversal absolutes. I can rewrite the laws of the multiverse so that every goblin that ever has, ever will, or is alive is destroyed. Numbers don't matter.

False arguement. a thousand monks in a thousand places can each go from level 2 to level 3, assuming that theres 12,000 equal level monks who die to them in combat, in about 10-30 minutes, give or take. Now, one level 20 wizard, by the D&D RAW you pointed out earlier, would have to find 14 CR 20's, or 12 CR 22's, and kill them. My method includes the xp generator for the gobbos. You need to find yours. Now, it may be possible to do that at level 20. Exceedingly difficult, as opposed to a sure thing with the gobbos, but not totally improbable.

Level 30, though? hmm. That one might be. The gobbos are their own pyramid. The wizard can't do that. So, if you want to "get to level" your wizard, then here's a novel concept. Devise the way to earn the xp at the rate required.

Even so, I devised a method of XP gaining using nothing but what was laid out in the original challenge. Your mage will have a hard time achieving that. In fact, the monks could probably kill the mage at level 13, long before ever reaching a level that the wizard could actually gain XP by killing.


Ask around, I'm an overbearing, irreverent, disrespectful, ass who will argue any point with anyone and the list of people who's opinions I respect is very short. Fax Celestis, Jack Mann, The Logic Ninja, BassetKing, and a few others.

I don't need to ask anyone to form that opinion of you, thanks. What I would need to ask is why you seem to be proud of that distinction?


And I was asking for people to come up with a way around what I proposed under the generally accepted terms of the challenge. You and a few others have decided to use various means to level up the monks or pool their wealth, things not allowed under the generally accepted terms of the agreement. Thats fine with me, I won't constrain myself to those rules anymore. And since no one has so far offered a way to defeat my previously posted build under teh generally accepted terms of thsi challenge then I am saying that I have proven that the wizard wins. If you want to alter those terms feel free, I have altered my wizard exactly how you altered the monks and I have won again.

Never saw anything prohibiting the gain of xp. You can't bar an infinitely repeating cycle, as, in order for the wizard to complete the challenge, he uses one.

Oh, and you can say that the sky is made of gumballs and teddy bears, that doesn't make it true. You've not proven yourself to win. You've used a never-ending repeating cycle to generate kills for the wizard and disallow it for the monks. Under such guidelines, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to win. I mean, I can devise a challenge where a level one kobold can kill a level 30 wizard... Just allow the kobold to move, deny the wizard that right, and throw everything in a dead magic world. I challenge you to kill the kobold with that wizard. Do I win the internets on that one? Does it REALLY mean anything?


Nothing in the challenge specifics the wizards race or Divine Rank. So my wizard is a Divine Rank 1,000,000 uberdeity. Or perhaps I will go with a Divine Rank 0 Great Wrym Prismatic Dragon with 20 wizard levels. Or maybe a 288 HD Iron Colossus with an Int score of over 90 (nice 1 point per 4 HD). Or perhaps a 140 HD Hecatoncheires.

Ditto on the gobbos for divine rank. Self-defeating arguement.


You fail to grasp the concept of multiple, separate, unequal, infinites. I can kill an infinite number of monks and an infinite number can still exist.

Actually, I pointed that out over a page ago. I also pointed out that infinites are neither equal nor unequal. Infinite is not a number that can be measured, but rather a concept of the immeasurable. Can your wizard kill an immeasurable number of goblins? Not unless he has a killing method that's based on a ratio of the total goblins present (which you don't). Your method is "every goblin that walks here dies". No matter how long it happens, there will always be a finite number of goblins that have walked to that place. It will always be measurable. Now, if you could find a way to kill a percentage, however finitely small, of the whole, I will concede that you have killed infinite. Otherwise, you've just managed to kill a ridiculously large, yet still not infinite, number.


Given an Infinite amount of time and infinite number of the infinite hoard of level 2 goblin monks will walk into the killign trap and an infinite number of those will die. None of those infinites need be equal.

Unless they choose not to. The gobbos could build a civilization around this trap, praying to the glowing orb, and throwing a fattened calf into it on every new moon. Now all you've done is kill an arbitrarily large number of cows. Your trap is dependent on the goblins CHOOSING to die. Again, no infinite can be equal, since all are not measurable.

Further, tell me exactly when you achieve an infinite number of goblins? An infinite amount of time from now? In other words, a time that will never be reached. So, you will never reach infinite, only very large, even if they DO walk into it.


With an infinite number of goblins you can't remain on the same plane, you must go to a plane on which goblins don't exist and then keep them away. A wizard can do that. Or do any of the other things that make you untouchable by the goblins.
And yet, he still fails.

[Enlong]

infinite 2 monk/18 sorcerors use time stop, dimension door, antimagic field. They get the 18 sorceror levels as outlined on page 7 of this thread.

Or dimensional anchor.
Or heck, lightning bolt, since the spell enters range at the same time it deals damage, and thus, the gate would transport a smoking husk of wizard.

Or the gobbos use collective wish's to set up permanent anti-magic fields over every other part of the plane, and then stay over 1 mile inside them at all times. If the wiz wants to kill the gobbos, as he must to fulfill the challenge, he must go to them.

Or you use 12^25 gobbos, you can get an epic sorceror, who uses permanency and greater consumptive field to get an epic spell of doom to kill every solar and wizard in existance.

OK, then let me rephrase the Contingency to say that it puts a Prismatic Sphere or Forcecage or some other equally impenetrable effect around him instead of the immediate Gate, and add "Any enemy whatsoever" to that aforementioned list of things that set it off. Prismatic Sphere blocks everything, including all spells, so he just Gates himself afterwards, and then produces his infinite army.

And if the gobbos set up infinite Antimagic Fields, then the Solars are fine, as Gate is a Calling spell, so the Solars wouldn't be dispelled by the Antimagic Fields. They just 'port in and fire.

Also, 12^25th gobbos = Epic Sorcerer? What?

[Talic]

OK, then let me rephrase the Contingency to say that it puts a Prismatic Sphere or Forcecage or some other equally impenetrable effect around him instead of the immediate Gate, and add "Any enemy whatsoever" to that aforementioned list of things that set it off. Prismatic Sphere blocks everything, including all spells, so he just Gates himself afterwards, and then produces his infinite army.

And if the gobbos set up infinite Antimagic Fields, then the Solars are fine, as Gate is a Calling spell, so the Solars wouldn't be dispelled by the Antimagic Fields. They just 'port in and fire.

Also, 12^25th gobbos = Epic Sorcerer? What?

By the XP tables if a level 2 gobbo killed 12 other level 2 gobbos, he would acquire enough xp to become a level 3. Then if he killed 12 level 3 gobbos (who became level 3 the same way as him), he would become level 4. So on and so forth, technically it would only be 12^21 goblins, however, I added an extra 4 to the power to account for 99.99999999% inefficiency. Even so, given infinite goblins, it'll happen an infinite number of times in the soonest possible amount of time, which is the amount of time it would take for a goblin to kill 254 other goblins, in deathmatch style arena brawling, in succession. Shouldn't be over 3 days for that.

Then the sorceror casts greater comsumptive field, kills however many of the level 2 goblins he wants to buff caster level to any number he wants, casts a wish for the following effect:

"Substitute my caster level for my spellcraft modifier for my next spellcraft check"

and casts epic spell to unmake the wizard, his parents, and everything he ever did in his life. Now, since the wizard never existed, he can't very well kill any goblins.

[Enlong]

By the XP tables if a level 2 gobbo killed 12 other level 2 gobbos, he would acquire enough xp to become a level 3. Then if he killed 12 level 3 gobbos (who became level 3 the same way as him), he would become level 4. So on and so forth, technically it would only be 12^21 goblins, however, I added an extra 4 to the power to account for 99.99999999% inefficiency. Even so, given infinite goblins, it'll happen an infinite number of times in the soonest possible amount of time, which is the amount of time it would take for a goblin to kill 254 other goblins, in deathmatch style arena brawling, in succession. Shouldn't be over 3 days for that.

Then the sorceror casts greater comsumptive field, kills however many of the level 2 goblins he wants to buff caster level to any number he wants, casts a wish for the following effect:

"Substitute my caster level for my spellcraft modifier for my next spellcraft check"

and casts epic spell to unmake the wizard, his parents, and everything he ever did in his life. Now, since the wizard never existed, he can't very well kill any goblins.
How about this, I rephrase the contingency to include "any enemy whatsoever" being within the range of the contingency, and rephrase the contingency to cast Gate whenever any of the aformentioned things come within a range equel to the biggest range of any effect or range ever to cast GATE. The Wizard gates away as soon as the Gobbos are within any range of anything (including spells that effect the whole plane) and the Wizard then Gates, and then raises his aforementioned infinite army.

[Keld Denar]

Then the sorceror casts greater comsumptive field, kills however many of the level 2 goblins he wants to buff caster level to any number he wants, casts a wish for the following effect:

"Substitute my caster level for my spellcraft modifier for my next spellcraft check"

and casts epic spell to unmake the wizard, his parents, and everything he ever did in his life. Now, since the wizard never existed, he can't very well kill any goblins.

HEY!! No using my trick back on the wizard! And what was the wizard doing while these gobos were leveling up? Basking in his own Consumptive Field, and killing off gobos when they hit 15th level or so to gain xp, thus beating the gobos to level 21 and epic spellcasting and winning.

Seriously though...imagine an infinite plane, infinite in all 3 dimensions. Now imagine a line of goblins, 5' x 5' x infinity'. This is as defined, an infinite number of goblins. Now imagine a 5' x infinity' x infinity' plane of goblins. This is infinity as well, but surely a larger infinity than the line. Now take a space of infinity' x infinity' x infinity'. This is a space jam packed with goblins, stacked one on top of another, in all directions. This infinity is larger still, don't you agree? There are different magnitudes of infinity, and you seem to fail to recognize this.

[Tokiko Mima]

Ok, how about the wizard charms a couple of the monks and gets them to hold a bomb that is timed to go off in one round. While the wizard plane shifts to escape the monks begin to do a railgun passoff of the bomb, accelerating it to the speed of light where it begins to occupy all points simultaneously. Then the bomb explodes, annihilating every point in the universe at once. It works because it uses infinite speed to kill infinite monks! :smalltongue:

[Lord Zentei]

I missed your responses since you merged them with an earlier post. Anyway:


You can keep advancing a clock indefinitely (well, until the gears physically wear out or some such, but still...).

Consider the set of all prime numbers (P), and the set of all natural numbers (N).

P is a proper subset of N - that is, for every element in P, that element already exists in N. However, there exists at least one element in N (an infinite number of them, actually...) that does not exist in P. Both are countably infinite, so you can map between the two such that you uniquely identify one with the other on a one-to-one basis... but at the same time, for any arbitrarily large sequential element range E (a subset of I, of the sort {A, A+1, A+2, A+3, ..., A+X}), the intersection of E and N is going to contain at least as many (and often more) members as the intersection of E and P.

Both are infinite sets, but by my count, N is larger than P. When testing elements of I for inclusion, N grows faster than P.

That does not answer the question. Are you honestly suggesting that there are a different number of points in the natural number functions y = 2x and y = x? Do half the points disappear when you multiply with 2 due to there not being "enough room" on the y-axis? How does that work from the perspective of the x-axis?



Despite the fact that they can map to each other, they aren't the same infinity. If we look at set theory, we can do subtraction with infinite sets that we can define - removing all elements that are in the set of natural numbers from the elements in the set of all integers leaves us with a lot of members - all the negative integers. We are left with an infinite number of elements. The set of all integers contains all the elements in the set of natural numbers, and an infinity more. Yes, you can map them back and forth without a loss of data - but you've also got elements in one that aren't in the other. There's more mapping functions that leave holes in the one than there are that do not.

If there is a 1-1 function, you can map all the elements in one set to the elements in another without there being holes in it. That is what a 1-1 function implies. Whether or not you claim the sets to be "equal" is not really relevant. For lest we forget, the point of this discussion is to decide whether or not the monks can swamp the wizard. By 1-1 mapping, they can do that.

And I still maintain that you cannot simply cancel the sets -- all your example shows is that the manner in which you subtract the one infinite set from the other determines what the answer is, not their inherent "size" in any classical sense, (aside from cardinality). For instance, suppose you have p(n), a function to determine the nth prime. If we subtract invp(p) from N where p is a prime number and iterate this for every prime, we have eliminated all of N (bar 0 and 1), and yet, we have not subtracted more elements from the set than the number of primes.



As does starting all the monks in a density such that you have an instantaneous black hole right next to the Wizard. As (mostly) does starting the wizard completely surrounded by the monks infinity layers deep in all three dimensions, and arming them with slings and readied actions.

That's arguably fair, though to be honest there is quite a bit of difference between making the battlefield instantly lethal on the one hand and allowing a sufficient number of adversaries to initiate an attack against someone who can teleport and planeshift on the other hand. If a wizard claims to be able to kill an infinite number of monks, he deserves what he gets... :smallwink:


There is insufficient info in the OP to formulate a proper response.

That's certainly true.

[Emperor Demonking]

Ok, how about the wizard charms a couple of the monks and gets them to hold a bomb that is timed to go off in one round. While the wizard plane shifts to escape the monks begin to do a railgun passoff of the bomb, accelerating it to the speed of light where it begins to occupy all points simultaneously. Then the bomb explodes, annihilating every point in the universe at once. It works because it uses infinite speed to kill infinite monks! :smalltongue:

Where do you get the bomb, plus the odds are the goblins next to the bomb holder won't have the ready action.

Remember the wizard has to be level 20, and the wizard has to kill the level two goblin monks.

[Emperor Tippy]

And D&D RAW allow for level 2 monks to earn XP, right? My original method of defeating the wizard stands.
No. Once they level they stop being a level 2 goblin monk. They become a level 2 goblin monk / X. And once that happens they are no longer are part of the challenge and thus don't matter.


False. You outlive them, you don't kill them. There's a difference. Each and every goblin lives life to a ripe old age and dies of natural causes without your interference. All you did was press fast forward with a high level spell.
Everything effects everything else. My removing myself from the Prime Material plane means that I won't kill some beasty that I would have if I stayed. That beasty will go on to kill another beasty and so on. Eventually one of those beasties will kill a goblin. Now that applies to every being on every plane after I remove myself from the multiverse. And given an infinite amount of time it will kill and infinite number of goblins.

As I said, indirectly.


False arguement. a thousand monks in a thousand places can each go from level 2 to level 3, assuming that theres 12,000 equal level monks who die to them in combat, in about 10-30 minutes, give or take. Now, one level 20 wizard, by the D&D RAW you pointed out earlier, would have to find 14 CR 20's, or 12 CR 22's, and kill them. My method includes the xp generator for the gobbos. You need to find yours. Now, it may be possible to do that at level 20. Exceedingly difficult, as opposed to a sure thing with the gobbos, but not totally improbable.
Hmm. Well I can solo 4 Great Wrym Red Dragons in a day and they are CR 26. If they were CR 20 I would get 6,000 XP a piece. I need at most 20,000 XP to reach level 21. So I reach level 21 within about 10 miniutes of the challenge starting. You said it took you 48 hours. So I still get epic magic first.


Level 30, though? hmm. That one might be. The gobbos are their own pyramid. The wizard can't do that. So, if you want to "get to level" your wizard, then here's a novel concept. Devise the way to earn the xp at the rate required.
You don't understand. Once I reach level 21 I have won. I get epic spellcasting. Once I have epic spellcasting I win.


Even so, I devised a method of XP gaining using nothing but what was laid out in the original challenge. Your mage will have a hard time achieving that. In fact, the monks could probably kill the mage at level 13, long before ever reaching a level that the wizard could actually gain XP by killing.
Sigh. No. Once your monks level at all they stop being the level 2 goblin monks specified in the challenge. They become irrelevant.


I don't need to ask anyone to form that opinion of you, thanks. What I would need to ask is why you seem to be proud of that distinction?
Because there are far to many people who put up with far to much crap.


Never saw anything prohibiting the gain of xp. You can't bar an infinitely repeating cycle, as, in order for the wizard to complete the challenge, he uses one.
No. I just need epic spellcasting. And if you change the terms of teh challenge, which happens if you level your goblins, they I can change them for the wizard as well. And he becomes some epic godkilling wank fest.


Oh, and you can say that the sky is made of gumballs and teddy bears, that doesn't make it true. You've not proven yourself to win. You've used a never-ending repeating cycle to generate kills for the wizard and disallow it for the monks. Under such guidelines, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to win. I mean, I can devise a challenge where a level one kobold can kill a level 30 wizard... Just allow the kobold to move, deny the wizard that right, and throw everything in a dead magic world. I challenge you to kill the kobold with that wizard. Do I win the internets on that one? Does it REALLY mean anything?
There's a FR PrC for wizards that allows you to cast in a dead magic zone. Or Perhaps my wizard just happens to have 20 levels of fighter as well. If you don't feel like staying within the spirt of teh challenge then I'm disinclined to do so either. Everything I have proposed has been within the letter of the challenge.


Ditto on the gobbos for divine rank. Self-defeating arguement./quote]
Not really. Any overdeity can stop someone from gaining divine ranks. Since you are starting with level 2 goblin monks and I am starting with a 100,000,000 year old Elan wizard 20 with a divine rank gained while I was level 1 of 1,000,000 I get to stop your goblins from gaining or having any divine rank. My wizard has been around longer than your goblins by necessity.

[quote]Actually, I pointed that out over a page ago. I also pointed out that infinites are neither equal nor unequal. Infinite is not a number that can be measured, but rather a concept of the immeasurable. Can your wizard kill an immeasurable number of goblins? Not unless he has a killing method that's based on a ratio of the total goblins present (which you don't). Your method is "every goblin that walks here dies". No matter how long it happens, there will always be a finite number of goblins that have walked to that place. It will always be measurable. Now, if you could find a way to kill a percentage, however finitely small, of the whole, I will concede that you have killed infinite. Otherwise, you've just managed to kill a ridiculously large, yet still not infinite, number.
Epic Spell: Goblin Genocide
"Kills every goblin on every plane or demiplane of the multiverse and removes their bodies to the Far Realm"

I can cast it at level 21. I can reach level 21 first. I win.


Unless they choose not to. The gobbos could build a civilization around this trap, praying to the glowing orb, and throwing a fattened calf into it on every new moon. Now all you've done is kill an arbitrarily large number of cows. Your trap is dependent on the goblins CHOOSING to die. Again, no infinite can be equal, since all are not measurable.
Given an infinite amount of time and infinite number of level 2 goblin monks will wander into it by mistake. If it can happen it will happen if given an infinite amount of time. If the tiniest possibility exists, no matter how slight, then it will occur. And given an infinite amount of time it will occur and infinite number of times.


Further, tell me exactly when you achieve an infinite number of goblins? An infinite amount of time from now? In other words, a time that will never be reached. So, you will never reach infinite, only very large, even if they DO walk into it.

And yet, he still fails.

You really don't understand infinity do you?

------------------
Assumptions:
1. Every Hour has 60 miniutes in it.
2. Every Minute has 60 seconds in it.

An infinite number of hours past (henceforth called X).
That means that 60X miniutes have passed.
That means that 360X secodns have passed.

Every value above is an infinite. They can never be equal. You can never have more hours than you have miniutes and you can never have more miniutes than you have seconds.

Infinity does not have to equal Infinity.

[Jayabalard]

Hmm. Well I can solo 4 Great Wrym Red Dragons in a day and they are CR 26. If they were CR 20 I would get 6,000 XP a piece. I need at most 20,000 XP to reach level 21. So I reach level 21 within about 10 miniutes of the challenge starting. You said it took you 48 hours. So I still get epic magic first.Once you reach level 21 you're no longer a level 20 wizard, and once that happens you are no longer are part of the challenge and thus don't matter. :smallbiggrin:


Given an infinite amount of time and infinite number of level 2 goblin monks will wander into it by mistake. If it can happen it will happen if given an infinite amount of time. If the tiniest possibility exists, no matter how slight, then it will occur. And given an infinite amount of time it will occur and infinite number of times.Not seeing how you can derive this; as far as I'm aware, the best that you can claim is that as time approaches infinity, the probably that one of them will run into it approaches certainty.


You really don't understand infinity do you?

------------------
Assumptions:
1. Every Hour has 60 miniutes in it.
2. Every Minute has 60 seconds in it.

An infinite number of hours past (henceforth called X).
That means that 60X miniutes have passed.
That means that 360X secodns have passed.

Every value above is an infinite. They can never be equal. You can never have more hours than you have miniutes and you can never have more miniutes than you have seconds.

Infinity does not have to equal Infinity.Those infinities have the same cardinality (they're all countably infinite), so they're equal.

[Keld Denar]

Hmmm, so I misremembered Maw of Chaos....turns out it has no CL max. Therefore, using Consumptive Field (via Lim Wish) and Maw of Chaos (greater metamagic rod of widen), you would be surrouned by a 30' sphere of nosave death. After absorbing the souls of several hundred trillion gobos, you could then cast a new Maw of Chaos, which would do severalhundredtrilliond6 damage, with no save. Then just fly around on your permanant phantom steed swathing death and destruction across all you pass.

The question is, what would taking that much damage actually feel like? Ouch.

Also, having a str score of 2x severalhundredtrillion + base str would be pretty impressive. The things you could do with that modifier. You could make jump checks high enough to dimensionally "leap" with no spells. You could pick up the moon, and hurl it at the earth and probably do enough damage to destroy it, and all the goblins on it. You could lim wish a Divine Insight to make massively broken skill checks with your arbitrarily high CL, including DC10^(large number) spellcraft checks needed to cast truely "epic" epic spells. And on top of that, you have a 30' aura of instant death from untyped energy damage. You have bathed in the blood of infinite goblins and become a god greater than any in existance. Boo yea!

[joe kickass]

the Wizard makes a iliusin in the center of a giant gate to the say plane of fire. and not the city of brass. then they will die from the heat. now he becomes a lich and voila

[Psiborg]

Some people seem very, very confused by what is, isn't, can be, and cannot be infinity.

There are indeed different "levels" of infinity. Why? Because at the point where you start using "infinity" in math as opposed to conversation, "infinity" breaks math as it is generally known.

"Infinity" is a number, but not a "real number". Math as it's generally taught/learned is only based on the "real number" system. When you stop dealing with just real numbers and start dealing with Infinity, you are now into the level of math where One (or any other number) can be divided by Zero; something that cannot be done with real numbers.

Infinity, Infinity+1, Infinityx5, Infinity-7%, and Infinity Squared are all seperate numbers, but they are not in the set of Real Numbers.

Yes, this is insanity. Most of the mathmaticians that all the formulas and theories in your math books? They went utterly gibberingly insane, and many of them killed themselves. Charles Manson has nothing on the great pioneers of math.

[....]

Get a sphere of annihilation and a flying carpet.

Now you can use your empty spell slots for things like food and water and summonign succubi for company while the goblins are sucked into nothingness forever.

And the feat is Supreme Cleave, it allows a 5-foot step between cleave attempts. I didn't know it was unlimited, though.

[quick_comment]

There are indeed different "levels" of infinity. Why? Because at the point where you start using "infinity" in math as opposed to conversation, "infinity" breaks math as it is generally known.

"Infinity" is a number, but not a "real number". Math as it's generally taught/learned is only based on the "real number" system. When you stop dealing with just real numbers and start dealing with Infinity, you are now into the level of math where One (or any other number) can be divided by Zero; something that cannot be done with real numbers.

Infinity, Infinity+1, Infinityx5, Infinity-7%, and Infinity Squared are all seperate numbers

Untrue. In general, introducing a symbol of infinity does not imply that, e.g. 1/0 is defined. Furthermore, no meaningful distinction can be made between Infinity, Infinity + 1, 5 Infinity, or "93% of infinity".

Consider the following limits:
lim n->inf (n+1) = inf = inf + 1
lim n->inf (5n) = inf = 5 inf
if a_0 = 2, a_n+1 = (a_n)^2 for n > 0, then lim n->inf (a_n) = inf = inf*inf

t's true, however, that some things which are infinite can also be distinguished from each other and in some senses be "bigger" than each other. (A puzzling example is the set of the primes 2,3,5,7,... and the set of the natural numbers 1,2,3,4,5... . One is a proper subset of the other, so it would seem obvious that this is "bigger". In this sense it is(there are members of one set which are not members of the other, and there are no members of the other set which are not members of the first), but in a more meaningful sense in set theory, they have the same cardinality("size") in the in that one can easily point out a one-to-one correspondence; 3 corresponds to 5 which is the third prime, conversely 5 corresponds to 3 because it is the third prime.)

Most absurd conclusions that are reached by seemingly elementary math(false proofs that 0=1 and the like) do not "break math"; they abuse the fact that people tend to trust that things add, subtract, multiply and divide in the manner that would be most convenient for the calculation at hand. In fact, you can't formally perform any of these operations without backing it up with some theory, and there's no theory to back you if you want to e.g. divide by zero or subtract infinities.

(On the subject of monks: some are arguing that if the wizard can kill even a modest finite number of monks continuously, (s)he wins the challenge. This is true, but keep in mind that if the monks can ever kill the wizard or otherwise remove the threat, the carnage has been stopped in finite time(and thus in a finite number of monks) and the wizard has lost. So the wizard needs to stay alive forever while killing monks, and the monks, as has been pointed out, should strategically train and increase in level. The wizard may do that as well, but there is a finite number of wizards(actually just one) and an infinite number of rapidly leveling monks, so this is a battle of finite experience vs. infinite experience, which doesn't look good for the wizard.)

[Tokiko Mima]

Where do you get the bomb, plus the odds are the goblins next to the bomb holder won't have the ready action.

Remember the wizard has to be level 20, and the wizard has to kill the level two goblin monks.

It doesn't have to be a big bomb. How about a page scribed with explosive runes?

The explosive effect would be infinite, occuring at all points in space and spreading out at the speed of light. The hit point damage would be infinite as well, since it originates from an infinite number of points around any one monk.

[Jayabalard]

It doesn't have to be a big bomb. How about a page scribed with explosive runes?

The explosive effect would be infinite, occuring at all points in space and spreading out at the speed of light. The hit point damage would be infinite as well, since it originates from an infinite number of points around any one monk.I don't recall anything that says that when an object is accelerated to the speed of light, it occupies all points in space in the RAW... nor even that light has a speed in the D&D universe. If you want to houserule in such an effect, you're free to, but I don't see how it's relevant.

[Fiery Diamond]

Dear holy -- what in the blazes is wrong with all of you?!

Sorry. Had to get that out of my system. :smalltongue: I'm just...amazed that there are nine pages to this thing. I posted back when it was 2-3 pages, and now, several days later, this thing's enormous! I mean, the thread had already hit an impasse back after the first two pages, how on earth did this continue?:smalleek:

I will only say one thing. Infinity divided by zero!:smalltongue:

- Fiery Diamond