Advice about a Bard/Rogue/SuC/Virt/ATrick ?

[Feadin]

Hi,
I'll enter a game and take over a character because the player is out, it's a Bard/SuC around 7/10 but I haven't got all the détails for now.
The DM agree for a transformation because my favorite classes often get a bit of roguish somewhere and I don't want to play straight Bard, on top there is no rogue in the party.
I thought about this: Bard7/Rogue3/SC2/VIRT2/ArT3.
Do you think there is a better combination or more simple knowing that I want to keep a good arcane casting level, inspire courage and roguish capacities.
DM is open to nearly all books but if I can keep to the basics (Complete serie, PHB2,....) the better.
And sorry for my bad english, just a French :smallsmile:
Thanks.

[lylsyly]

I would skip the Virtuoso levels because it will cost a spell casting level and just stick with Arcane Trickster.

You will have to decide yourself whether getting an extra +1 to inspire courage is worth losing a level of spell casting.

[Telonius]

So, I understand that you're trying to keep your Sneak Attack damage as high as possible. But that's going to be at the expense of the other thing that makes a Rogue, a Rogue - your skill points. Two of those Prestige Classes (Sublime Chord and Arcane Trickster) are giving you only 4+Int skill points. That's 2 less than just taking a level of Bard would get you. For Sublime Chord, trading a couple of skill points for massive arcane power is worth it. It's a much less attractive deal with Arcane Trickster, especially since that one doesn't progress your Bardic Music.

If you really have to have sneak attack and are looking to combine the two, I'd go for something more like this: Rogue1/Bard7/Sublime Chord2/Unseen Seer10. (Take Rogue first, since the skill points are multiplied at first level; 32+4*Int, instead of 24+4*Int). You'll get 5d6 sneak dice by the end of it, which is the same you'd have at 20th level with the Arcane Trickster scheme; only one lost casting level instead of four; more skill points overall; and a better attack bonus so your sneak attacks will hit more often. (Unseen Seer gives 3/4 BAB; Arcane Trickster, only 1/2).

[Feadin]

Thank you for your advices, the two are interesting.
I think that sneak attack will not be of great use if it's only 5d6 and the Unseen seer has no access to sneaking skills like move silently and so.
May be I'll use a mix of these but the fact to take only one level of rogue is also a good idea.

[Balthanon]

Thank you for your advices, the two are interesting.
I think that sneak attack will not be of great use if it's only 5d6 and the Unseen seer has no access to sneaking skills like move silently and so.
May be I'll use a mix of these but the fact to take only one level of rogue is also a good idea.

Unseen Seer has both Hide and Move Silently.

"Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level): Bluff, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot."

You could also pick up a feat like Able Learner or something if the concern is actually Disable Device or some other skill that isn't in this list.

[Jack_Simth]

So, I understand that you're trying to keep your Sneak Attack damage as high as possible. But that's going to be at the expense of the other thing that makes a Rogue, a Rogue - your skill points. Two of those Prestige Classes (Sublime Chord and Arcane Trickster) are giving you only 4+Int skill points. That's 2 less than just taking a level of Bard would get you. For Sublime Chord, trading a couple of skill points for massive arcane power is worth it. It's a much less attractive deal with Arcane Trickster, especially since that one doesn't progress your Bardic Music.

If you really have to have sneak attack and are looking to combine the two, I'd go for something more like this: Rogue1/Bard7/Sublime Chord2/Unseen Seer10. (Take Rogue first, since the skill points are multiplied at first level; 32+4*Int, instead of 24+4*Int). You'll get 5d6 sneak dice by the end of it, which is the same you'd have at 20th level with the Arcane Trickster scheme; only one lost casting level instead of four; more skill points overall; and a better attack bonus so your sneak attacks will hit more often. (Unseen Seer gives 3/4 BAB; Arcane Trickster, only 1/2).
You'll need early entry tricks to do things in that order: Sublime Chord's skill requirements lock it to the 11-20 range.

Even without early entry tricks, however, that's more of a note than a problem: Unseen Seer's entry requirements are much lower, and it's spellcasting entry is on a per-level basis rather than a absolute before basis. You just need to shuffle the order around a bit; something like:
Rogue-1/Bard-7/Unseen Seer (Progressing Bard)-2/Sublime Chord-2/Unseen Seer (Progressing Sublime Chord)+8

Make sure to pick up Practiced Spellcaster(Bard) to keep your caster level up. Unseen Seer reduces your CL for non-divinations. The build above (at 20th) has a caster level of 20 for most things (9 Bard + 4 Practiced Spellcaster(Bard) + 10 Sublime Chord - 3 Divination spell Power = 20), and either 23 or 26 (depending on a ruling with the stacking) for Divination spells. Well, before using Song of Arcane Power to boost things... which is likely the only real reason you're sticking with Sublime Chord for the second level.

Note that Arcane Trickster doesn't have the CL reduction problem, and Unseen Seer only has it after level 3 or so. So if you don't mind losing the 2 skill points per level for an additional eight levels, you really could do something like:
Rogue-1/Bard-7/Unseen Seer (Progressing Bard)-2/Sublime Chord-2/Arcane Trickster-8
Ends up with... six, I think... sneak attack dice. Practiced Spellcaster(Bard) puts you at CL of either 20 or 23 for all spells.

[Feadin]

Thank you for this new combination, it seems very close to what I wanted to play.
Even if I can't do tons of sneak attack dices the skills are very important in my style of play, being hard to spot and listen, finding traps and hidden things is often more vital than killing the monsters, fighters are best for this :smallsmile:

[Anthrowhale]

To crank up your sneak attack damage the Craven feat (in Champions of Ruin) is quite useful.

To make sneak attack stick, the Lightbringer Rogue alternative class feature (in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) is useful. These could be combined via Rogue 3/Bard 5/Unseen Seer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer 8 .

Note that Unseen Seer can give you access to Hunter's Eye (Player's Handbook II) which could give you an extra 8d6 sneak attack. If you take Extend spell + Persistent Spell, you can benefit from it all day.

So for a high sneak attack build, something like: Rogue 3/Bard 5/Unseen Seer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Trickster 8 could give 15d6+20 sneak attack damage, or 15d6/2+20 to the sneak attack immune. Feats would be something like: Darkstalker, Craven, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Practiced Spellcaster[Bard], +2 others.

There is an alternative approach if you have access to Dragon Magazine where it's possible to get nearly full sneak attack and nearly full bardic music on a cloistered cleric chassis.

[Feadin]

HOOOOO !!!!
Thanks again, we are not accustomed to min/max, some even do min/min :smallsmile:
I have to open all the books in front of me and make choices with DM approval of course, I don't want to go too far from the actual character for spellcasting levels.