Fizban's Dragonborn + Dragon Mask= Win?

[diplomancer]

As the title says: Is it just me, or a Fizban's dragonborn that gets a Dragon Mask (from Tyranny of Dragons) is crazy powerful?
The relevant text:
"If you have a breath weapon that requires rest to recharge, it gains a recharge of 6"

This basically means that a Fizban Dragonborn with Extra Attack can basically start every fight with 2 uses of his breath weapon. And that a Metallic Dragonborn could use his Metallic Breath Weapon at every combat. Sounds crazy to me. Would you allow it as a DM?

It's even worse if it's a Dexadin, in which case he also takes advantage of the other relevant bullet point: "while you're wearing no armor, you can add your charisma bonus to your Armor Class". And does this stack with Mage Armor?(notice that the reading is different from class features like Unarmoured AC). My goodness!

[DarknessEternal]

This basically means that a Fizban Dragonborn with Extra Attack can basically start every fight with 2 uses of his breath weapon.
Still just one use with a recharge.


And that a Metallic Dragonborn could use his Metallic Breath Weapon at every combat. Sounds crazy to me.
Nope, no guarantees. It's a recharge.


Would you allow it as a DM?

It's even worse if it's a Dexadin, in which case he also takes advantage of the other relevant bullet point: "while you're wearing no armor, you can add your charisma bonus to your Armor Class". And does this stack with Mage Armor?(notice that the reading is different from class features like Unarmoured AC). My goodness!

This is all perfectly fine for a legendary item.

[Amnestic]

The dragon masks are Legendary in rarity so they probably should be pretty good, I'd hope.

But yes, what you've said is correct in how it works.

[diplomancer]

Still just one use with a recharge.
Hmm. He has breaths*proficiency/Long Rest. I suppose a DM could read "recharge" as going from 0 to 1, and not "charging till you get to max". It's a way to make it less powerful, but I'm not sure it's the best reading.



Nope, no guarantees. It's a recharge.
Technically yes, but unless your DM chains up lots of combats, it's pretty much guaranteed that you'll get it back after even less than a minute.



This is all perfectly fine for a legendary item.

True. But then my DM is allowing a rebuild after finishing Hoard of the Dragon Queen (where the party managed to get the Black Dragon Mask), so if the DM allows the new Dragonborn, it's pretty much a given.

[Contrast]

Just to expand on what DarknessEternal is saying the recharge ability means that it recovers on a roll of X on a d6 'during each subsequent round of combat' and also specifies that the ability recharges when they finish a short or long rest.

The fact that it clarifies the second part does appear to me to imply they only intend you to be rolling in combat and out of combat you need to get a short rest in. YMMV on how an individual DM is going to rule that of course, I suspect many will just have it auto recharge out of combat.

[diplomancer]

Just to expand on what DarknessEternal is saying the recharge ability means that it recovers on a roll of X on a d6 'during each subsequent round of combat' and also specifies that the ability recharges when they finish a short or long rest.

The fact that it clarifies the second part does appear to me to imply they only intend you to be rolling in combat and out of combat you need to get a short rest in. YMMV on how an individual DM is going to rule that of course, I suspect many will just have it auto recharge out of combat.

Ah, I see it now. I hadn't realized that the recharge only works during combat. Just checked the Monster Manual and this is correct. VERY gamist, but it balances it out nicely.

[MrCharlie]

Just to expand on what DarknessEternal is saying the recharge ability means that it recovers on a roll of X on a d6 'during each subsequent round of combat' and also specifies that the ability recharges when they finish a short or long rest.

The fact that it clarifies the second part does appear to me to imply they only intend you to be rolling in combat and out of combat you need to get a short rest in. YMMV on how an individual DM is going to rule that of course, I suspect many will just have it auto recharge out of combat.
That's absurd. No DM keeps track of that with, say, a dragon doing aerial hit and runs-and it's ridiculously easy to cheese as well by forcing initiative against a bag of rats or something.

The whole "Turns only take place in combat" thing also contradicts how spells work-otherwise, you could not cast bonus action spells out of combat (or, indeed, any spell). Literally no one plays with a consistent interpretation of "only turns in combat" throughout the entire rules.

The short rest clarification should not be interpreted to imply a rule, and in practice all it means is that it recharges in the one in a trillion chance that you rolled a 1-5 on a 1d6 over the course of 6000 rolls, or for the more believable possibility that an ability speeds up your short rest so that failing to recharge is possible.

[Contrast]

Snip

I don't disagree, hence the 'I suspect many will just have it auto recharge out of combat'.

Any mechanic which incentivises a PC to punch another PC so they can declare they've rolled initiative is obviously on shaky ground thematically regardless of mechanical considerations.

[MrCharlie]

Ah, I see it now. I hadn't realized that the recharge only works during combat. Just checked the Monster Manual and this is correct. VERY gamist, but it balances it out nicely.
To clarify, this isn't how recharge works, or you can't cast spells out of combat. Running it that way is a homebrew rule, not a consistent interpretation of the RAW.

[diplomancer]

That's absurd. No DM keeps track of that with, say, a dragon doing aerial hit and runs-and it's ridiculously easy to cheese as well by forcing initiative against a bag of rats or something.

The whole "Turns only take place in combat" thing also contradicts how spells work-otherwise, you could not cast bonus action spells out of combat (or, indeed, any spell). Literally no one plays with a consistent interpretation of "only turns in combat" throughout the entire rules.

The short rest clarification should not be interpreted to imply a rule, and in practice all it means is that it recharges in the one in a trillion chance that you rolled a 1-5 on a 1d6 over the course of 6000 rolls, or for the more believable possibility that an ability speeds up your short rest so that failing to recharge is possible.

Not all wordings of "a turn" specify "a turn in combat", though. And the one for recharges in the Monster Manual does specify it. I do find it very gamist, but it does keep the combo we're discussing here more sane.


To clarify, this isn't how recharge works, or you can't cast spells out of combat. Running it that way is a homebrew rule, not a consistent interpretation of the RAW.
Edit: see above. The Monster Manual rule does specify "turns in combat" which is not true for spells. Before going to check it, and with the understanding that it only talked about "turns", not "turns in combat", I also thought that it basically meant an auto-recharge out of combat (which is why I created the thread); now, I'm not so sure.



I don't disagree, hence the 'I suspect many will just have it auto recharge out of combat'.

Any mechanic which incentivises a PC to punch another PC so they can declare they've rolled initiative is obviously on shaky ground thematically regardless of mechanical considerations.

This is also to answer the "bag of rats" cheese. Technically, I believe it's the DM who decides when "Combat" (the game term) begins.

[Thunderous Mojo]

That's absurd. No DM keeps track of that with, say, a dragon doing aerial hit and runs-and it's ridiculously easy to cheese as well by forcing initiative against a bag of rats or something. .

I keep track of this as a DM.
It is part of what makes being strafed by a Dragon frightening…
….it is a little bit unpredictable because the Breath Recharge is randomly determined.

Calling for an “Initiative” Roll, is squarely in the DM’s purview.
A DM can easily say: “You kill the bag of rats, mere rats are not a meaningful threat”.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pbVxyL-OeM

[MrCharlie]

Not all wordings of "a turn" specify "a turn in combat", though. And the one for recharges in the Monster Manual does specify it. I do find it very gamist, but it does keep the combo we're discussing here more sane.


Edit: see above. The Monster Manual rule does specify "turns in combat" which is not true for spells. Before going to check it, and with the understanding that it only talked about "turns", not "turns in combat", I also thought that it basically meant an auto-recharge out of combat (which is why I created the thread); now, I'm not so sure.




This is also to answer the "bag of rats" cheese. Technically, I believe it's the DM who decides when "Combat" (the game term) begins.
The grammar there nixes this idea. It's not a conditional clause-The wording isn't "The ability recharges in combat, if the creature rolls a d6 on its turn", it's "[The ability] has a random chance of recharging in combat. At the start of each of the monster's turns, roll a d6."

To put it another way-nothing in the sentence structure implies that it can only be used in combat. It just states that in combat this might happen, the same as in any other time. Otherwise the conditional would modify the short/long rest section at the end, and also require those to be in combat as well.

This is highly similar to the text in the "actions in combat" section, which describes the basic combat actions. The text says that you may take these actions in combat. Nothing says you have to be in combat to take them.

Just because a section assumes that actions or features are only used in combat, does not mean that they only work in combat. Nothing in the entire game every makes this distinction, and creating an artificial one is a house rule.

[Asmotherion]

Why would you not allow it? It's technically an Artifact at that point.

[Eldariel]

I dunno, max of 8d10 on level 17? I don't think spending two of your attacks to Fireball enemies on Tier 3+ with a Legendary Item is really that impressive; Illusionist's Bracers Warlock is doing 8d10+40 at much longer range every round with no resource consumption for instance. And Illusionist's Bracers are very rare, not legendary.

[DarknessEternal]

"[The ability] has a random chance of recharging in combat. At the start of each of the monster's turns, roll a d6."

To put it another way-nothing in the sentence structure implies that it can only be used in combat. .

You literally quoted the rule that says it only works in combat. The second sentence is dependent on the first. The first explains when it can recharge, the second explains how.

[Sigreid]

my interpretation would be that yes it recharges out of combat but, it only recharges to give you one use when you have no uses left.

[Contrast]

The short rest clarification should not be interpreted to imply a rule, and in practice all it means is that it recharges in the one in a trillion chance that you rolled a 1-5 on a 1d6 over the course of 6000 rolls, or for the more believable possibility that an ability speeds up your short rest so that failing to recharge is possible.

Just for fun - there are 600 rounds in 1 hour so the odds of not rolling a 6 in an hour would be (5/6)^600.

Which is a 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003 % chance. That number is so small I'm struggling to find a context to adequately compare it to :smalltongue: One in a trillion would be 0.000000000001% for reference.

[DarknessEternal]

Upon further review, this does not work.

Recharge specifically says it only works on abilities that have exactly one use.

[diplomancer]

Upon further review, this does not work.

Recharge specifically says it only works on abilities that have exactly one use.


my interpretation would be that yes it recharges out of combat but, it only recharges to give you one use when you have no uses left.

Considering these two posts, and the fact that Fizban's Dragonborn didn't exist when Monster Manual and Hoard of the Dragon Queen were written, probably the best way to deal with this is the way Sigreid interprets it; i.e, yes, you can recharge it, but only gives you one more use. Still powerful, but not too powerful for a legendary item.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'm doubtful that recharging it fully while outside of combat would be OP, much less a single drip after you are out/per battle.

It is a legendary item, and the breath ain't earth shaking or anything.

[Yakk]

Talk to your DM?

I mean, "recharge roll when at 0" keeps it as a decent item, and is a plausible reading.

So leaning in on a strong reading is going to be a risk.

A 20 dex/cha paladin with a shield can hit 22 AC. Not that amazing but not bad; matches plate+2. That assumes shields are allowed here; it states no armor, and shield is a kind of armor.

Mage armor, sorcerer unarmored, monk unarmored defence, or barbarian unarmored defence all make it quite good.

[Nikushimi]

This is a possibly Goddess touched item. It should give you some pretty strong abilities, and a recharge isn't exactly "overpowered". The level at which you get this, you are most likely fighting some pretty crazy stuff as is. Have the extra 3d10 (level 11-16) or 4d10 (Level 17-20) isn't really that game breaking.

At that level you are probably facing enemies and creatures that can shrug that off. On the off-chance that you DO roll a 6 on a D6, great. You have a fraction of the power of a real dragon.

That's the point.

This item is a wondrous legendary item. Possibly blessed by Tiamat (lore is a bit vague) which would make this an artifact. Artifacts are supposedto be strong. Hell, wondrous legendary items are supposed to be strong.

If you or your DM don't want that power in the players hands the solution is simple. Don't use the item. Or create a reason they have to get rid of, and or destroy it.

Nerfing it is just silly and ridiculous. Yes, out of combat chances are you will always have your breath weapon, but inside of combat you have to roll that d6.

But also chances are...you'll have cultists or dragons after you trying to get the item back. If you get this item before the you hit the higher tiers of play...something went wrong, and now you have to adjust for it.
----

TL;DR: It's literally a wondrous, legendary magical item of Tiamat. It SHOULD be strong. Saying it shouldn't be is kind of silly imo. And the recharge isn't all that horrible considering, once again, it is a wondrous legendary item.

[diplomancer]

This is a possibly Goddess touched item. It should give you some pretty strong abilities, and a recharge isn't exactly "overpowered". The level at which you get this, you are most likely fighting some pretty crazy stuff as is. Have the extra 3d10 (level 11-16) or 4d10 (Level 17-20) isn't really that game breaking.

At that level you are probably facing enemies and creatures that can shrug that off. On the off-chance that you DO roll a 6 on a D6, great. You have a fraction of the power of a real dragon.

That's the point.

This item is a wondrous legendary item. Possibly blessed by Tiamat (lore is a bit vague) which would make this an artifact. Artifacts are supposedto be strong. Hell, wondrous legendary items are supposed to be strong.

If you or your DM don't want that power in the players hands the solution is simple. Don't use the item. Or create a reason they have to get rid of, and or destroy it.

Nerfing it is just silly and ridiculous. Yes, out of combat chances are you will always have your breath weapon, but inside of combat you have to roll that d6.

But also chances are...you'll have cultists or dragons after you trying to get the item back. If you get this item before the you hit the higher tiers of play...something went wrong, and now you have to adjust for it.
----

TL;DR: It's literally a wondrous, legendary magical item of Tiamat. It SHOULD be strong. Saying it shouldn't be is kind of silly imo. And the recharge isn't all that horrible considering, once again, it is a wondrous legendary item.

All fair points. But the level you can get it, in the published adventure that actually has it is 7.

Usually, if you get it, it's very good, but not OP unless one character is able to get full advantage of all it offers. Which is the precise case of a Fizban's Metallic Dragonborn Dexadin.

[Chronos]

Doesn't the one you find also require attunement? And doesn't that attunement require doing things that would be against most paladin oaths?

[diplomancer]

Doesn't the one you find also require attunement? And doesn't that attunement require doing things that would be against most paladin oaths?

I think you may be mixing it up with Hazirawn (the evil sentient greatsword that's usually found with the Mask; that can be iffy for many Paladins). But the Mask just requires attunement, and as far as I can find it at least, there are no special requirements to attune to it.

[Chronos]

Might have been tweaking by our DM, then. He said that to attune the mask, you had to murder a sapient creature purely for purposes of attuning the mask. And we didn't find a sword with it at all.

[Sigreid]

Might have been tweaking by our DM, then. He said that to attune the mask, you had to murder a sapient creature purely for purposes of attuning the mask. And we didn't find a sword with it at all.

That sounds like a DM that just doesn't want you to keep the mask TBH.

[Kane0]

So, could we use the dragon mask with an Ascended Dragon Monk too?

[Sigreid]

So, could we use the dragon mask with an Ascended Dragon Monk too?

Just having read the ability, if I'm the DM, yes. Same with the ranger's breath weapon.