How to kill high level PCs

[kbob]

OK, this is mostly for the brain exercise. Knowing how to do this helps in challenging higher levels. I don't think it's a secret that higher level campaigns provide higher challenges to DMs. I know there are RP and story bound ways to challenge and give negative consequences ("the city burned in ashes as you did not stop the demon on time"). However, I am not looking for that. My goal is not to kill my players but to know where the extremes are yet keep the threat of death a reality for them. I can dial back. I think the chance of death should always be there for any level. At higher, it should be less often, but when it does present itself, it should be more dire and/or in a way I would not be so willing to do at earlier levels. Save or sucks always suck but at higher levels I am not opposed at major plot points. The players are more experienced and with proper clues about what they may be facing they can make appropriate preparations.

That all said, my question is this: how would you go about making challenges deadly for higher level (15+) PCs? The "add more monsters" or "make them tougher" is a given. However, what would you use or do specifically (creatively)? Let's suppose the party is composed of: paladin, barbarian, wizard, cleric, bard. I think that is a strong party (subclasses are not that important for this). Paladin adds great save bonus in 30' plus can smite like mofo. The barbarian is a nigh-killable meet shield that can bring a lot of pain. Lastly, the full casters have great support and can cast 8th or 9th level spells. Thats a tough cast of characters to challenge in my opinion. The goal hear is to scare the players of PC death in this thought experiment and to keep the challenge high. This is to get an idea of what can be done in game to keep pressure high but not quite AS high. To keep the threat of death "real" while being appropriate for gameplay. Again, I can dial back. Think of high level sub-boss or boss fight. Thank y'all!

[Albert]

Hmm well all the classes you listed are long rest based so I’d try to hit them a lot throughout the day and maybe even ambush them during their long rests since the have that specific vulnerability. This can make sense narratively since the BBEG would likely take this party very seriously and devote many followers/resources to taking them down.

Random encounters are gonna be a breeze at this point so I think having an enemy force that has specifically studied the party and is sending tailor made kill teams is what’s required. That or deceiving the party and trying to ambush them at crucial moments, luring them into traps etc might work. But mostly I really think the monsters can only win when they’re the ones who are setting the terms of engagement, being intelligent, strategic/tactical, learning from defeat etc. If high level PCs always get to choose when and how battle will take place then it’s already over.

[Pildion]

Rocks fall everybody dies!

Hey someone had to say it...

[False God]

At high levels I typically run leveled enemies (both monsters with added class levels and PC-built enemies).

Over the years I've made up some of various levels for most of the classes (except warlock because I'm not terribly interested) and they're largely interchangeable with a little reskinning.

So a "high level encounter" (for a party of say, 15+) might consist of a Adult Dragon with 15 class levels (usually some kind of caster) as the primary, several lieutenants around 10-12 covering a mix of classes (each usually serving a role: Control, distraction, damage, annoyance) and then a dozen level 5-ish generic minions (like kobolds with 5 levels of fighter/rogue/barbarian).

The party will typically encounter waves of the lower-level enemies, with replacements for the lieutenants over time if the fight drags out.

---
Unless the party is somewhere naturally high levels (like the Hells), random high-level encounters are almost entirely off the table. Anything the party runs into that is actually a fight is something they specifically sought out, or specifically sought the party out.

[JonBeowulf]

In short, you can't. Or if you do, you kill them all.

High-level characters in 5e have so many options that you can't plan to counter all of them in a believable way. Or if you somehow manage to pull it off, they'll realize it and withdraw and choose to fight in terrain of their choice. You're then left with forcing them to fight where you selected (as in Rise of Tiamat, Princes of the Apocalypse, etc.), but then you still have to deal with their characters' abilities and combat tactics (they didn't get this far without learning how to optimize their cooperation). You can use environment to take away some of their toys but I doubt the players will like that... especially if they lose.

In both RoT and PotA (and others), the boss fights are still all about action economy and hp reduction. Legendary & Lair actions help, as do powerful secondary enemies, but it's just a scaled-up version of the same encounter formula you've used all along. If you manage lock down the party's main damage-dealer, a TPK is on the way. If you don't, the players almost certainly win. If you manage to bypass the party's tank, a TPK is on the way. If you don't, the players almost certainly win. If you take out their primary support character, a TPK is on the way. If you don't, the players almost certainly win. These enemies are fighting intelligently which in itself might be enough to win. These enemies are tough and intelligent so the fight is balanced on a razor.

I'm not saying that the players winning is a bad thing. I'm saying it's far too difficult to create a challenge for high-level characters that can't be ruined by a single good/bad d20 roll. Granted, that threat's always been there, but at this level the characters are expected to be able to deal with it. If they do, it's either :smallsigh: or :smallbiggrin:. If they don't, it's :smallfurious:.

[MrStabby]

Hmm. A few disordered thoughts. General, rather than specific to your party.

1) saves. Specifically int, cha and dex saves. Where AC tends to go up uniformly across a party as they level these saves will often remain weak points. A well placed banishment or phantasmal force can turn a fight. This also let's you use multiple lower level spellcasters without their spells all bouncing off. Even other spells can be good - a level 1 NPC with command or Tasha's hideous laughter might be much more influential than the party things.
2) PCs rarely die from rolling failed death saves. Don't rely on this to be a threat. Enemies that outright kill (mind flayers, intellect devourer, gibbering mouther) are able to keep the tension a bit higher. Add to this damage over time effects that will keep automatically adding failed death saves and the pressure mounts. A monster with an aura that deals 2d6 damage to nearby creatures each turn doesn't look like it will do much to a level 16 party, but when a player goes down it means healing word is probably not enough to get them back into the fight efficiently. Also, along with your big threats in a battle, have some smaller, much less significant threats. Between help actions and attacking downed players to force double death save fails with no roll they can have an outsized effect on hazard.
3) use counterspell. Use it sparingly, but one thing that can really screw with a party is when one element of an otherwise solid plan goes south. That change in tempo is big, but that sense that the party is not the one completely in control of the fight adds a lot of tension.
4) add equipment. Do it liberally. Potions of fire resistance, nets, alchemists fire. All humanoids should have both a ranged an a melee attack - even if just javelins. This helps stop things like a single fear spell totally taking out enemies.
5) the encounter that kills the party isn't always the one they die in. Often, the cause of death is depleted resources - an otherwise fair encounter becomes a lot harder when the party starts with no high level spell slots and at half HP. Play to drain resources before the big battles. Use illusions and misdirection to get the players to overcommit resources.
6) if the party fights on their terms they will probably win. Throwing the big battle at the party at night time after they take their armour off to sleep but before they take a long rest and get spells back is brutal. Needing some perception checks and some actions to wake people up can tip a dangerous encounter into a lethal one.
7) play enemies smart. If the party casts short term buffs, withdraw and engage again when they run out. Take cover as appropriate. Identify and focus down the most dangerous enemies. Break concentration.
8) split the party. At higher levels (even medium levels) the overlapping support abilities a party can have can be very powerful. Counterspell, paladin aura, tanking abilities and high damage output... but split the party so that they can't support each other and then use some reserves to target each groups weak spots. A trap casting fear as an opening for an ambush is a great example of this (assuming no paladin in the party at least). Wall of force is another good one - forcing half the party to find another way round, potentially discovering new threats along the way, is quite fun.
9) high levels are powerful. Don't be squeamish about throwing appropriately powerful enemies at them. "Oh that's unfair, I won't use a lich with an optimised spell list and some support from their constructs and a chance for surprise the party as an enemy". PCs are powerful with powerful abilities like resurection; give party members with these spells time in the spotlight.
10) divination is a thing. As you get higher and higher level the benefits of being prepared begin to far, far outweigh the costs of a spell or two. If the bad guys have taken precautions against the party's preferred tactics it isn't bad metagaming but rather good world building.
11) no one survives to be a high level threat without taking steps and countermeasures to counteract the most dangerous threats. Any high level character can justify having a source of something like shield, misty step and possibly silence/darkness. If a single forcecage is the answer to an encounter, you are probably doing it wrong.
12) use the environment. If you want to attack the PCs, you don't have to smash in the doors of their home if you can just burn it down and smoke them out. Likewise, envies who want the PCs dead should be methodical about it - find their clone and destroy them first, set ambushes and don't just walk in on the PCs.

[loki_ragnarock]

Rocks fall everybody dies!

Hey someone had to say it...

... killing PCs is easy. Has always been easy. All the CR, recommended encounters, recommended xp/day, balance between PC abilities vs. Monster abilities, level gated target numbers, etc.; all of those exist as guard ramps to make it easier to tell stories where people feel challenged without introducing the likelihood of death.

Remove the guard rails, and it gets downright *easy.*

1. Play via milestone leveling.
2. Ignore recommended xp/day or xp/encounter guidelines and the prospect of player enjoyment.
3. Profit.

The PCs have limited resources defined by their class abilities, spells, and ability scores. As a DM, you have no such limitation to your resources. You want to throw down Tiamat, Orcus, and a Tarrasque (now with flying speed and ranged attack) Howdah carrying a dozen Liches all in one encounter? In an arena where interdimensional travel - plane shifting or teleportation - causes 10d10 damage and automatically fails? Surrounded by a lavafall and with a big, moon sized rock suspended above them by a fraying rope?
Literally nothing is stopping you.

Not killing PCs is sooo much harder than killing them. Showing restraint and keeping things challenging but with reasonable chances of success is like threading a moving needle, but *missing the mark* is spectacularly easy.

[Yakmala]

Step 1: Determine the character’s dump stat.

Step 2: Enemy sorcerer subtle casts spell targeting character’s dump stat.

Step 3: Profit.

[Witty Username]

1. Prevent Resting.
2. Gross damage numbers.
3. Reduce to 0 AOEs
4. Inflict incapacitating conditions on the entire party.

Resting is the prime way consequences are prevented, a harassing enemy or time based consequences can do this.
Deal enough damage to reduce the PC to 0 and have enough left over is greater than there HP, this sidesteps the ability to prevent death with healing.
The Banshee and the demilich can set PC HP to 0 as an AOE attack, and high yield AOE attacks like a dragon breath weapon can accomplish the same thing if not mitigated properly. This prevents healing as well by incapacitating the healer.
The last method is to inflict the entire party with conditions, the PCs will effectively die if the entire party is incapacitated for about a minute. Ghouls, and Ghasts have a reputation for this when employed in groups. And things like Mind Flayers can paralyzed multiple PCs at once.

[Easy e]

I think dealing with high-level and powerful characters is liking thinking about how to write a good Superman story.

You will notice that the best ones do not directly challenge Superman in combat. Instead, they challenge his beliefs and world view. They try to make him change the code that makes him "Superman" in the first place. Maybe it is tropey and players hate it, but they hate it because it is not a direct challenge but an indirect challenge. They can't simply walk up and bash it with a club or fireball spell, they have to engage with it on a different level.

Failing that, the baddies often rarely directly challenge the Boy in Blue. Instead, they challenge the people and things around him that he cares about. Lois, innocents, etc. Again, players hate that because it is not a direct challenge and can feel like a cheap shot. However, think about the Green Goblin in Spider-man (Raimi #1), Joker in the Dark Knight Rises, etc.

These are challenges that high-level characters need to face, spiritual, moral, and RP challenges.

[Yakk]

1. Have many bad things happening. On a fast progression. That the players know about. And progress if the PCs don't stop them.

Every long rest needs to be a sacrifice. Lose a city, lose an ally, bad guys wake a tarrasque, summon a dozen pit fiends, that kind of thing.

Have more than one such stake per day. Each stake is protected by a myriad of encounters and monsters, including one CR 20+ one.

Victory on each stake also buys some advantage. Maybe you get a Solar on your side they where going to sacrifice to summon the fiends. But these "wins" are smaller than the other side.

Now let the players pick how hard they push. Try to take out three CR 25s the same day? Up to them. Stop after one? Sure, that is a choice.

Make sure that the stakes "losing" state leaves an interesting plot behind, as does winning.

After they save the smith demigod, a few days later he hands them a custom magic weapon. The solar stops a city from burning that the PCs didn't get to. But 3 bad things happen for every 1 good, and the PCs are motivated to stretch themselves until they break.

This puts danger back into the hands of the players. So when PCs die, they agreed to it.

[kingcheesepants]

There are some spells and abilities that can cause quite a few problems without anyone needing to make save. Things like Forcecage or Reverse Gravity or Maze. These spells can be used to split up the party and significantly impair their effectiveness. Then of course you want the enemies to be aware of the parties strengths and weaknesses and use those against them.

So for example let's say that the party is fighting a standard BBEG wizard and his demon allies. The bad guys know that the wizard uses arcane eye to spy on them but rather than dispelling it or otherwise doing something that will alert the party they make use of that to lay a trap. The wizard makes an illusion of themselves and then hides invisibly behind cover nearby. Meanwhile the tankier meat shield bad guys are standing there "torturing" a "maiden" that they've "kidnapped", in reality the maiden is a shapeshifted demon spellcaster who's working alongside the badguys. The bad guys know that the paladin is going to come in guns blazing and thus they won't have to wait long and the party likely won't take the time to check for traps (they have good intel that says he's a hothead who never leaves a damsel in distress) so they stand there alert. The party bursts in, initiative is rolled when possible the main wizard casts Maze on the paladin (getting rid of him until he can make a DC 20 intelligence check) his simulacrum casts dominate person on the barbarian and commands him to kill the party wizard and the shapeshifted demon casts feeblemind on the cleric.

Now at this point the party could definitely rally and beat the bad guys but the cleric and barbarian most likely failed their saves (the paladin wasn't there to help and all the saves targeted were weak ones) and are thus useless or actively hostile, the paladin is out of the picture and the wizard is worried about his own party member cutting him in half. Even if the bad guys didn't do great in initiative the party still falls to this strategy because the only bad guys being attacked in the first round are the big bulky demon guys, the wizard is hidden and the girl was thought to be an ally.

[Kane0]

Let me quickly pull up some of my old DM notes...

Ways to kill off PCs

1: HP Damage. Duh.
2: Max HP reduction (great for poisons/diseases/curses whittling you down over time)
3: Exhaustion levels (6 stage death spiral)
4: Target Death Saves directly (Three strikes and you're out!)
5: Attribute reduction (straight up from previous editions)
6: Prof bonus reduction (Emulates previous' edition energy drain nicely, also a handy death spiral)
7: Save or Bad Stuff (Save or Suck, Save or Lose, Save or Die)
8: Overhealing (explode when THP exceeds your max HP)
9: Reducing XP
10: Aging (in both directions)
11: Sap spell slots
12: Damage vulnerability (as in giving it to you temporarily)
13: Drowning/Choking

Edit: forgot forcibly removing attunement from items!

[Gtdead]

Tactically my approach would be to bring enough counterspellers and enough low CR swarms to have enough dpr to oneshot each party member in one round. Something like 4 Mages and 150 Skeletons for example, which is a deadly encounter for this party. Of course this won't work that well against highly optimized parties, with multiple counterspellers and simulacrums, but at the very least it will force them to use their spells suboptimally. No 20 level PC wants to use level 3+ slots to counterspell CR 6 enemies.

Strategically, disrupting their rest, introducing quest failure conditions and time constraints, etc, forcing them to bite more than they can chew. Even the most optimized casters eventually will tap out if they don't have any more spell slots available and martials.. well let's be honest, just spam them with anything with high enough damage and they will die. Martials are way better against high value targets, while casters deal with swarms. If the casters don't have enough spells to deal with swarms then you can overpower them easily. Archers can be an exception with their 600 Longbow range, but this is environment dependent. Note that unless you cause a TPK or a near TPK (meaning that the survivors need to teleport away), you can't really kill anyone. Revivify is very cheap and it doesn't have many downsides. It's yoyo healing at this point.

[da newt]

Split the party - the classic divide and conquer. Find a way to separate one from the herd and destroy them.

Take away their vision - heavily obscured is a great way to nerf all and the casters especially. Make it so the party can't see each other or the enemy or the environment, then make it very loud so they can't hear anything lower than a scream at close range. Don't give them a shared battle map at all.

Lava

If your party is 5 level 15 PCs - the enemy is 5 level 15 PCs and one level 15 Wizard (all controlled by you so coordination is easy).

Spam some cheese - the enemy is 28 invisible pixies who attack the party while they sleep polymorphing them into clams that are then transported to 5 different locations each designed to imprison the specific PC.

Anti magic zones - a huge nerf.

Look for soft kill options - defeat has a million different conditions other than killed.

[Nagog]

Death by damage is typically less fearsome than death by effects. My personal favorites are exhaustion (gets worse and worse until you die) and reducing hit point maximum. The latter of the two is far more fun, as it specifically counters yo-yo healing and comes into play far quicker and with more force than Exhaustion does.

That said, Exhaustion does have a really good way of instilling an "impending doom" feel, particularly when inflicted by way of a Rakshasa's claws.

[Nagog]

Revivify is very cheap and it doesn't have many downsides. It's yoyo healing at this point.

Death by effects like HP maximum reduction, curses, and stuff like consistent environmental damage can negate Revivify. ;)

[False God]

Death by effects like HP maximum reduction, curses, and stuff like consistent environmental damage can negate Revivify. ;)

It's also assuming the person with the spell can stop whatever they're doing, hoof it over to the corpse without interference, and cast the spell, all within one minute (about 10 turns or 1 round, depending on your count).

[kazaryu]

OK, this is mostly for the brain exercise. Knowing how to do this helps in challenging higher levels. I don't think it's a secret that higher level campaigns provide higher challenges to DMs. I know there are RP and story bound ways to challenge and give negative consequences ("the city burned in ashes as you did not stop the demon on time"). However, I am not looking for that. My goal is not to kill my players but to know where the extremes are yet keep the threat of death a reality for them. I can dial back. I think the chance of death should always be there for any level. At higher, it should be less often, but when it does present itself, it should be more dire and/or in a way I would not be so willing to do at earlier levels. Save or sucks always suck but at higher levels I am not opposed at major plot points. The players are more experienced and with proper clues about what they may be facing they can make appropriate preparations.

That all said, my question is this: how would you go about making challenges deadly for higher level (15+) PCs? The "add more monsters" or "make them tougher" is a given. However, what would you use or do specifically (creatively)? Let's suppose the party is composed of: paladin, barbarian, wizard, cleric, bard. I think that is a strong party (subclasses are not that important for this). Paladin adds great save bonus in 30' plus can smite like mofo. The barbarian is a nigh-killable meet shield that can bring a lot of pain. Lastly, the full casters have great support and can cast 8th or 9th level spells. Thats a tough cast of characters to challenge in my opinion. The goal hear is to scare the players of PC death in this thought experiment and to keep the challenge high. This is to get an idea of what can be done in game to keep pressure high but not quite AS high. To keep the threat of death "real" while being appropriate for gameplay. Again, I can dial back. Think of high level sub-boss or boss fight. Thank y'all!

i like a mixture of challenging them over the course of a few encounters, and soft control mechanics during the actual boss encounter. For the purposes of this the way im defining 'soft control' is 'putting the PC's in a position that their actions are either weakened in some way or they're punished for taking them.

an example of the former: the boss themselves was a conquest paladin, which by itself has some amount of soft control in their 0 speed if feared aura. However, being a conquest paladin there was more to the fight. the floor itself was a literal carpet of lemures (the devil, not the animal) and the air in the throne room (where hte fight took place) was flooded with imps. Now, these were high level PC's so rather than having the lemures/imps treated as creatures on the battlefield, i opted to have them used as their Kings lair actions. on a rotation the lemure rug would shift around trying to trip the PC's, potentially giving the (largely martial) combatants advantage on attacks vs proned enemies. the next trigger would have the imps all unleash with their crossbows, dex save against damage. the next trigger, the imps would wrap themselves around the torches in the hall as they reloaded their crossbows. blinding the PCs (previously established regional effect preventing dark vision from functioning properly). essentially the battlefield was in a constant rotation of mildly debilitating effects that could hamper and disrupt the PCs's plans.

for the latter: previously in that same campaign they had to fight (among a few other things) a pair of elementals. for the purpose of this discussion the important elemental was the water/ice elemental. Its attack was relatively weak, but had a rider where its target would partially freeze. this wouldn't *directly* hamper action, but it did hurt to move. so they'd take a bit of if they did things that required moving, like casting spells with somatic components or attacking....or....moving. the point being its a way to get free damage from the PC's doing what they were gonna do anyway. there were a few other things on the field to keep things interesting (including a simulacrum of the big bad) but having that extra layer of soft control, causing them to pay HP to take their actions, greatly increased the lethality.

[Gtdead]

Death by effects like HP maximum reduction, curses, and stuff like consistent environmental damage can negate Revivify. ;)

What monsters are you going to use to do these? Mid optimization parties with a Paladin can beat 14 CON without rolling so Wraiths are out. The three casters are expected to gain CON proficiency through feats while Barbarian already has it. Perhaps Paladin may not have it, although at level 20 I doubt it will be the case. I don't know all the monsters that can do that. Of the top of my head there's the demilich, which isn't good enough because it's legendary action is just a 15 DC.


It's also assuming the person with the spell can stop whatever they're doing, hoof it over to the corpse without interference, and cast the spell, all within one minute (about 10 turns or 1 round, depending on your count).

With a Paladin on a Pegasus it's actually not that hard and that's assuming that Bard hasn't got Revivify due to having 2 that can cast it already. Also fights rarely last more than 5 rounds. There's enough time in the vast majority of cases and it's fairly easy to plan ahead if someone manages to die.

[MrStabby]

What monsters are you going to use to do these? Mid optimization parties with a Paladin can beat 14 CON without rolling so Wraiths are out. The three casters are expected to gain CON proficiency through feats while Barbarian already has it. Perhaps Paladin may not have it, although at level 20 I doubt it will be the case. I don't know all the monsters that can do that. Of the top of my head there's the demilich, which isn't good enough because it's legendary action is just a 15 DC.



With a Paladin on a Pegasus it's actually not that hard and that's assuming that Bard hasn't got Revivify due to having 2 that can cast it already. Also fights rarely last more than 5 rounds. There's enough time in the vast majority of cases and it's fairly easy to plan ahead if someone manages to die.

Well intellect devourer is DC12, but few PCs have Int save proficiency. Also, their Body thief ability just requires a PC to be incapacitated - not incapacitated by the Devourer so a caster with a high DC stinking cloud (for example) could leave many in the party open to being Body Thiefed. Likewise the ghost is good as many don't have great charisma saves.

Mind flayer exrtact brain or disinegrate works well to kill outright.

Mummy Lord has channel negative energy legendary acion to stop downed people getting back up.

Shadow strength drain doesn't need a save. Likewise Vampire HP drain.

Shadow dragons can do this as well, but they need to reduce a PC to zero to turn them into a shadow.

Gibbering mouther's can be nasty - lots of strength and wisdom saves - against the right party two or three of these among a group that are fighing more serious enemies can be quie a challenge - even just eating any downed PCs is a sad end. Wih a Cleric a Wizard and a bard in the party these will always find someone to pick on.

[Unoriginal]

Assuming the PCs are known to have powerful magic items or other special equipment (or if the PCs show they have them during the combat), it makes sense for enemies with a minimum of tactical considerations to want to separate their foes and their troublesone tools.

A PC could get surrounded by a bunch of mooks, half of them attempting Disarm while the other half Help, for example, if the bad guys realize the PC's magic sword is big troubles.

Of course, there are counters to that, but it's not a bad thing for those who have such counters foil the attempt, while others are put in trouble by this tactic.

[Mr. Wonderful]

Parties are built to handle as much damage as a DM can reasonably dish out. If you want a tough fight, go a different direction and use spells and effects that remove or disable party members.

Confusion, Dominate Person and Banishment at lower tiers are good examples, with Mass Suggestion, Symbol and Feeblemind for higher levels. I'm sure I've missed a bunch, but you can see where I'm going with this.

Intelligent and well-prepared bad guys will have a clear plan of who to target with some of those spells - aiming at the cleric with Feeblemind is sure to be unappreciated :smallamused:

And if you really want to present a challenge you can follow Mr. Burlew's suggestion: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html

[Kurt Kurageous]

Unexpected water. Lots of it. Things that pull PCs into water and try to drown PCs.

Drowning in 5e cares not for your HP.

Falls. Suicidal grappling by multiple monsters to make the fall happen.

Starvation.

Disease.

There must be fifty ways to bleed your party...

[Segev]

I want to chime in to support the "challenge Superman by threatening his objectives" viewpoint. While it is possible to kill high level PCs, it almost requires them to make unforced errors unless you're being "unfair" and simply shutting them down with overpowered opposition. (This is always an option, mind.)

The "unforced" errors are usually caused by making them have in-game consequences for not making those errors that they don't want to suffer.

However, you want to be careful: making it so that three bad things happen for every one good thing no matter what will make them feel like trying is futile. You should have a "push" point you feel is sufficient that they can, if they go that far, actually maintain or gain ground. If they do take on 3 CR 25 enemies in one day, with only one short rest between the second and third, perhaps that should be enough that all the "bad stuff" happened to them, rather than to their interests. They're drained, exhausted, and out of resources, and maybe one or two of them are on death's door (or were...or actually died), but their world-objectives all got achieved...assuming they succeeded in these fights. And remember, again, that these fights needn't be about killing the PCs. Killing the PCs is on the table, but the fights should have the objectives the PCs are defending or pursuing on the line in ways that they can lose them without dying. A retreat, a bad guy getting away, or collateral damage could cause the PCs' objectives to be lost.

When you force the PCs into a position where the players are asking, "Can I take the hit for the NPC?" you're more than halfway to "killing the PCs" if you want to put that threat on the table.

[KorvinStarmast]

How to kill high level PCs The sickening Radiance Microwave, and counterspell.
You need two enemy casters to do this. One after the other, Sickening Radiance then spherical wall of force. There they sit, making saving throws, unless they can DD out.
Counterspell the DD. (Or misty step, which I think will get you out of a WoF?)
Or if they try to disintegrate the WoF? counterspell the disintegrate.

Is it a sure thing?

No, High level PCs have a lot of tools, but something interesting starts to happen a few turns in, besides the radiant damage done radiance.
Exhaustion levels begin to have a negative effect on ability checks, and then on saving throws.


Level Effect
1........ Disadvantage on ability checks
2........ Speed halved
3........ Disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws
4........ Hit point maximum halved
5........ Speed reduced to 0
6........ Death


I will say, though, that I am not completely sure that counterspell works if the one casting the spell to be countered is inside that spherical wall of force.

[Sigreid]

Nuke the planet from orbit. it's the only way to be sure! :smallbiggrin:

[Demonslayer666]

Know the character's and player's capabilities in detail. I much prefer taking the entire party up from 1st, and avoid starting at higher levels. This helps me be familiar with their capabilities.

Appropriately challenging the party is one of my biggest challenges. They frequently exceed my expectations and it requires constant adjustments.

[J-H]

Invisible beholder zombies are a good start to create an AMF.
At the right time, have them drop it and start firing Disintegration rays.

This got my party worried, but Lay on Hands works in an antimagic field, so the 0hp barbarian got topped up to 80 in one go.

[f5anor]

That all said, my question is this: how would you go about making challenges deadly for higher level (15+) PCs?!

I believe the mechanisms are fairly standard:


Attrittion
Target their weaknesses
Tactics


Attrition. As others pointed out, keep the characters busy, without rests, wear them down until they start to feel vulnerable. This works wonders, and can make the most arrogant party of murder hobos reconsider their tactics.

Target their weaknesses. Most optimized characters come with strong weaknesses, such as dump stats. Many of these are even quite typical, and do not even require meta gaming to discover. Just make the BBEG target the martials Wisdom e.g. Command, Hold, Charm, etc. Exploit their bad tactics, charm the Barbarian when charging outside the Paladins aura.

Tactics. Use tactics of your own to neutralize their strengths, engineer situations that will give you the initiative, cast Silence, Sleet Storm, Plant Growth, Wall of Force, etc. to gain tactical advantage. Devise stratagems that will split the party. Use light conditions to get advantage. Impose conditions on the party with innovative means e.g. nets.

Real strength lies never in character optimization or levels.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Target their weaknesses. Most optimized characters come with strong weaknesses, such as dump stats. Many of these are even quite typical, and do not even require meta gaming to discover. Just make the BBEG target the martials Wisdom e.g. Command, Hold, Charm, etc. Exploit their bad tactics, charm the Barbarian when charging outside the Paladins aura.

Tactics. Use tactics of your own to neutralize their strengths, engineer situations that will give you the initiative, cast Silence, Sleet Storm, Plant Growth, Wall of Force, etc. to gain tactical advantage. Devise stratagems that will split the party. Use light conditions to get advantage. Impose conditions on the party with innovative means e.g. nets.

Real strength lies never in character optimization or levels.

This borders on, if not outright falls into DM VS PLAYERS.

You job as a DM is to create open ended problems and let the PCs figure out how to solve them. You are a suboptimal DM if you are giving a problem with only one solution and then setting the stage so the PCs can't win. And soon to be a former DM.

[Unoriginal]

This borders on, if not outright falls into DM VS PLAYERS.

You job as a DM is to create open ended problems and let the PCs figure out how to solve them. You are a suboptimal DM if you are giving a problem with only one solution and then setting the stage so the PCs can't win. And soon to be a former DM.

Your job as a DM is to propose a situation, and let the PCs handle it as they see fit.

Overpowering PCs isn't hard for a DM, since they can just set up a situation that is unwinnable. But this is not what the OP or the post you're replying to are about.

As a DM, I consider that enemies will almost always do their best to accomplish what they want. Sometime what they want is not a good idea (ex: the sentry who wants to do a minimum of work until their shift is over), sometime what they want is survival even at the cost of failing their mission, and sometime what they want is beating the PCs.

What is important is that the DM decides what ressources the group of enemies has for the confrontation, then stick to it. Enemies using tactics to hinder the PCs as much as possible is expected, and so is the enemies trying to use what they know/assume of the PCs to their advantage.

It's only poor DMing when the enemies' ressources get boosted once the encounter has begun to make them win (ex: the Barbarian has resistance to everything but psychic damages, so now the boss can do psychic damage), or when the enemies get nerfed because they're "supposed to lose" (ex: a Minotaur got a lucky crit with a charge on the Wizard, resulting in the PCs being in a bad spot, so the DM fudges things until the PCs win rather than letting them actually handle the situation).

[MrStabby]

This borders on, if not outright falls into DM VS PLAYERS.

You job as a DM is to create open ended problems and let the PCs figure out how to solve them. You are a suboptimal DM if you are giving a problem with only one solution and then setting the stage so the PCs can't win. And soon to be a former DM.

Well I think it depends on the encounter. If its just a great big, dumb bag of HP then being realy smart isn't good DMing. If the enemy is a fighter that has survived hundreds of hostile encounters, then I would have expected them to learn a thing or two about tactics.

At high levels, PCs are major threats and and it would be disrespectful as well as stupid for enemies to have not done their research and preparation.

[Sigreid]

This borders on, if not outright falls into DM VS PLAYERS.

You job as a DM is to create open ended problems and let the PCs figure out how to solve them. You are a suboptimal DM if you are giving a problem with only one solution and then setting the stage so the PCs can't win. And soon to be a former DM.

I think this whole thread is "How do you present high level characters with the possibility of failure and death so the game doesn't become just a boring steamroll fest?"

[Witty Username]

This borders on, if not outright falls into DM VS PLAYERS.

You job as a DM is to create open ended problems and let the PCs figure out how to solve them. You are a suboptimal DM if you are giving a problem with only one solution and then setting the stage so the PCs can't win. And soon to be a former DM.

DMs are expected to RP the NPCs, intelligent enemies should have some amount of tactics and awareness to qualify as this. The baddies should use tactics that make sense, military units should have a good sense of armored opponents, spellcasters should understand concentration, wolves should fight as a pack. If your doing this well ideally the party will need to maintain awareness of the situation and ensure their strategy is functional for the encounter.

Also, the DM is expected to create challenges for the party, if the PCs cannot lose, then it isn't an encounter. My rule of thumb is resources, my experience is that parties will not use resources until they feel forced to. If they are spending resources to end the encounter then they feel the possibility of losing. But this is also expressed by tactics, if the PCs don't feel threatened they can get some really strange behavior. The monsters already play assuming this could be their last fight, the PCs should do the same. And the way to do that is challenge and risk.

And finally, high level parties have access to resurrection magic. There is no harm in making them use it periodically. Killing a PC can be difficult, even with good tactics, deadly encounters and multiple encounters a day due to pop-up healing, forgiving death saving throws and short rest recovery. But even after all that resurrection magic exists. A party that is using all of these things is not being inherently mistreated by the DM.

So no, targeting the bad saving throws is not Player vs DM behavior.

[J-H]

Bad guys may have resurrection magic too. Once a wizard has fought the PCs 3 times, he definitely has reported back on what to target and not target...and he's leveled up and now packs Disintegrate.

[f5anor]

Bad guys may have resurrection magic too. Once a wizard has fought the PCs 3 times, he definitely has reported back on what to target and not target...and he's leveled up and now packs Disintegrate.

This is a very cool plot idea, quite underutilized, however most appropriate.

Given how low level and readily available spells may be used to resurrect someone, possibly even in unexpected forms as with Reincarnate, its reasonable that the BBEG will have taken precautions to get resurrected.

Imagine the faces of the party that finds out that the evil force out to get them, is actually someone they killed several adventures before, now leveled up (possibly a different race?) and coming to get them with a vengeance.

[J-H]

Oh, I just took a random enemy wizard who got away from the first fight with a report, then used better tactics the 2nd time but got killed. The next time he showed up, he was described as having several scars but looking kind of familiar.

[Melphizard]

Well, when it comes to fighting high-level PCs there's many factors but the main three for when I make encounters are:

1. Number of players: A one-player difference in high-level combat can wildly reshape how to balance things, especially depending on what classes each player plays. If the party lacks somebody with good healing potential I need to tone things down a bit.

2. Magical Items: Most parties I run for have around 6 to 10 really good items when they're 15+ but that's not every game. Depending on the power of some of their magical items it can reshape how they treat combat.
Ex - Staff of the Magi: Suddenly the wizard has a lot more attrition for combat and can effectively mitigate spells sent at them.

3. Party Competence: Not every player is excellent at combat even after getting to 15th level. Sometimes bards still use a laser rifle they found despite having 7th level spell slots or the Necromancer invested all 5th level and higher spell slots into undead what the heck?! Depending on how comfortable, experienced, and "optimized" your players are when it comes to fighting will be the deciding factor to see whether they will make or break when the going tough.



My Solutions to fighting high-level PCs:

1. The Sans Approach
"huh. always wondered why people never use their strongest attack first." - Sans Undertale

I typically open most of my high-level encounters with the strongest attack I've got being thrown at the players and usually the same happens when I'm at higher-level tables. In a level 20 game I played in, my DM opened nearly each fight either with Meteor Storm or by throwing us all through a Prismatic Wall. It hurt like hell and many of us were bloodied off the bat typically; but, that's fair when we can do the same to them and/or have a hasted fighter with a vorpal sword rush in, attack 12 times, and lob of multiple heads with triple advantage elven accuracy.


2. ABAM
Always Bring A Mage

Never leave a boss without mage support lest it be at the whims of the party spellcasters. The players should look for the spellcasters and take them out first and rightly so. By having a spellcaster who can sacrifice reactions to counterspell you'll allow boss fights to be a bit longer. Note: For levels 15+ I suggest always having one archmage (who's spells you SHOULD ADJUST) and one other caster, be it another archmage or a cleric.


3. Quantity and Quality
I wield Blackrazor, devourer of the souls of whose misfortune brought them before its sharp edge; yet, you have hired me to slay just some sharks?

The way initiative works make it so numbers are a major deciding factor in how a fight goes. When choosing minions for a level 15+ battle who isn't the boss, you need to make sure each one seems weak enough to die by strong enough to be a threat. Some really good minions, in general, are the following:
- Shield Guardians: Absorb damage for the boss
- Class Npcs from Volo's Guide: Volo's has a lot of good statblocks to represent classes but in NPC form. The warlord, warpiest, and various warlocks prove to fare well against PCs assuming you maybe max out their HP and treat them as if the party was the boss and you were playing them as characters.
- A Giant: Adding into the combat a giant of some type, be it storm or cloud (maybe undead giant?), throws a big ol bag of hp who can dish out damage but take those hits!


4. We're Fighting WHAT?!
Challenge Rating is as accurate as a STR Paladin fighting a shadow

Challenge rating is weird and typically doesn't reflect the power of some monsters. I've had a level 8 party of 6 players kill an ancient dragon with maximum hp quite handily. When I see level 15+ I would advise looking at monsters which you think they may not handle well; but, could maybe win. The kind of fight I've found myself and a lot of my players enjoying is fights where they think they'll lose but barely succeed. Those kinds of near-death trials are the peak of D&D combat and thus I think you sometimes should be free to let loose with an 85 damage breath weapon. To be fair half of them probably will resist the damage somehow, be it racial, rage, or absorb elements.


5. This Is Only My First Form!
Decades. Nay. Centuries I spent. All to bring about the fall of this wretched continent. I shall not let you worms destroy my unlife's work! - A Lich before being gored by exactly 64 cows.

Bosses will typically end up being alone once the party dispatches their minions and when that happens your boss shouldn't suddenly be unable to fight the now weakened party alone. Most level 15+ combats are against beings who would not be fighting if something hadn't been going wrong. Dragon Turtles live centuries and now some humanoids come and just kill it? So many betrayals and slaughters has an ancient dragon endured to have its life end in some cave. Achieving the height of magic and becoming a lich, a wizard who now has all the knowledge she seeks at her fingertips lets it slip away when some nobodies march into her tower?! A ritual to break their Goddess Dendar the Night Serpent out from her prison and finally let her eat the sun, destroying all of Toril; but, they accept the failure of their ritual when some dude teleports a bunch of heroes into the once-thought impossible maze to stop you? Nay! Nay! Nay! Nay!

Giving your boss(es) the new "Mythic Action" abilities from Fizban's empowers them to have a last stand moment which truly cements them as the powerful enemy these adventurers were sent to stop, not their minions. You don't even need to give them Mythic Actions and could instead just let them have a "when I drop to 0, phase 2 starts" ability. Maybe cause some lair action changes and/or give them something powerful. Really good time for one-liners as well.


Much of what I said above has the idea that you're doing a final battle or climactic fight ahead and that's not always the case. Sometimes the party has enemies and just needs to deal with them. The best way to handle those situations is maybe do one of these things:


1. The Enemy of my Enemy: Have the party's enemies which they've likely gathered up over time join forces here and there to attack the party whenever you deem.
Ex: The party early in the campaign angered a kingdom and killed the leader of a hobgoblin tribe. The kingdom and the hobgoblins joined forces to train their best men to form a squadron with the sole purpose of being able to defeat the party.

2. Resource Depletion: In general you never want your party's first encounter to happen without them at least putting in some effort or resources into doing things. Hit them with some glyphs or add some random encounters that cause them to lightly expend some of what they've got before you hit them with the encounter.
Ex (from my game): The party on their way to Waterdeep had to fight a random encounter, using a few spell slots to both win the fight and get in some healing afterward. Once in Waterdeep, they went to the docks and a group of revolutionaries went to kill the anti-revolutionary spy who had joined the party after being deployed on a separate mission. The party was initially tricked by the revolutionaries who posed as guards accusing them of murder and playing the act of "just the guy doing his job," manacling the spellcasters and then attempting to surprise attack the party.


High-level combat is very hard to balance since both your side of the table and the player's side hold near-godlike power and some real firepower and healing utilities. Sometimes it's best to experiment and learn how much they can do with their new spells on a harder random encounter whilst they travel; but, still letting them rest afterward. These random encounters adjusted to the party level help me see just how the party would use their power and adjust the later "more important" encounters. This works exceptionally well after a high-level party gets a level up.

With all that said, hope it helps in your goals to challenge and/or kill a player. If all else fails just use a Maruts. If that fails, just send more Maruts next time.