Smite Arrows: Hexblade Archery Theory Crafting

[Melphizard]

Greetings my fellow build theory crafters!

I like making builds that aren't the typical I see in the Adventurer's League games and conventions I go to so I can see what is different that works! Recently I went through old character sheets and found a character I had played many years ago who was a Hexblade 7 who specialized in using a Longbow.

So here's what I'm trying to figure out:
How can I create a Hexblade using a Ranged Weapon that is able to match any other warlock with EB

So some things:
1 - I'm considering this as two level 20 builds since I want to know the peak of the build
2 - Any 6 non-artifact magical items
3 - Multiclassing is all good

So far my current thoughts:
5 Hexblade / 3 Samurai / 12 Sorcerer

Oath Bow, Tome of Leadership, +3 Rod of the Pact Keeper, Bracers of Archery, Carpet of Flying, Periapt of Proof against Poison
Feats: Sharpshooter + Elven Accuracy

Attacks: +16 - 5 to hit (6 (prof) + 6 (Cha) + 2 (Bracers) + 2 (Archery fighting style) - 5 (Sharpshooter); 1d8+3d6+20+4d8 (Eldritch Smite) + 2d8 Spirit Shroud + 6 (Hexblade curse)
Total: 7d8+3d6+24 per hit (2 attacks)
This totals up to an average of 74 damage per attack for three attacks (you have limited smites after all)

What else can be done to make a Hexarcher viable to some degree?

[JNAProductions]

Isn’t Spirit Shroud only against a target within 10’ or something?

Makes the whole “bow” bit pretty pointless.

I’d also check how good you are when NOT at peak, not just at your peak.

[Yakk]

Bracers add to damage not accuracy.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm thoroughly confused why, in your search to make a Hexblade archer, you primarily ended up as a Sorcerer?

I'm not really a fan of building with magic items and what not, but I think just playing a normal Hexblade PotB would suffice for the most part, picking up archery to boost your accuracy.

Warlock gives you:

+1 bow

Extra Attack equivalent

Ranged smite potential

Hex

Eventually +Cha to damage as standard


That's a solid damage progression with higher accuracy than EB and, again unlike EB, the option of spike damage.

[Corran]

How can I create a Hexblade using a Ranged Weapon that is able to match any other warlock with EB

Dont try to match EB. EB is far more cost effective, and you'll only end up throwing tripple the resources (while probaby also gimping yourself tactically; eg by relying extensively on crit fishing) to be there or thereabouts only for EB to pull ahead again at tier 4. By all which I mean, that a raged squishy build obviously has to look at dpr and not neglect it, but dont overdo it, dont overcommit (you'll still invest a lot just to be viable as a dpr, but you are not and shouldn't be just that).

One thing you can do better with a bow than with EB though, is nova. You can stack both an eldritch smite and (eventually) a banishing smite for a good alpha strike (with some extra points in there from sharpshooter if you can justify the risk; eg by having advantage and multiple attacks). This can be actually good when there is an enemy glass canon that plays smartly. Bonus points if you get the lucky feat so you can ready this attack if you know that an ally of yours can get a hit in before the enemy glass canon plays (that's because this increased your odds of acctually killing, or at the very least banishing the target before it even gets a turn). Also because initiative matters if your plan is to deny/nuliffy such an enemy's actions quickly (so you need the lucky reroll for initiative too). Remember, this is not so much about raw damage figures as it is about creating an advantage for your team. At the end of the fight it wont matter too much if your dpr could have been 20 points higher if you managed to take out the lich at round 1 and before it even gets an action. Also, on a sidenote, eldritch smite can knock someone prone, so it has uses against flying enemies.

Something I had to learn that hard way, was to not overvalue short range abilities on builds like this one (ie hexblade archer). This is a squishy build. The various defensive (shield, tomb of Levistus) and mobility (teleports) options you have at your disposal are either not stacking well with your base values (eg shield) or come at a great cost (spending very limited spell slots or dropping concentration), the latter being something that you cannot afford easily (with the extra pressure from smites, even assuming you are not wasting them on times when they cannot make a real difference). And worse, they are all reactive. Meaning that by the time you get to use them, or if they fail, you might already be in a tough spot (low hp or dead, and probably lost concantration and thus a precious slot has gone wasted). Be proactive. Good thing about bows is that with a longbow you can shoot from 600' without having to spend an invocation (you spend a feat instead, but the feat is worth getting for other reasons as well). Use this range. In fact, pair it with an increased darkvision range from devil's sight for action-free and spell-slot-free advantage whenever that comes up. Getting close and personal to activate the shroud or the curse is very tempting and I understand that, but it carries a risk that if it materializes then you'll be in a very tight spot, as warlocks are not designed to react efficiently to danger, but they can be decent at not getting in such a situation (long range, good vision) if just the player is mindful of positioning. So, think twice before sacrificing positioning and a good range capability (and potential advantage).

[Kane0]

Personally i'd just go warlock for the invocations you want (smite and extra +cha to damage being the big ones) spend some ASIs on the archery style and/or BM maneuvers you can use at range then swap over to another cha casting class for smite slots and secondary benefits (pally 6 for saves or bard for inspiration).

Actually, that would be a funny sort of character progression. Tier 1 youre just a dexadin, becoming increasingly aggravated at being unable to smite at range. You pick up a magic bow at some point and thats your opening to go into hexblade.

[Dork_Forge]

Personally i'd just go warlock for the invocations you want (smite and extra +cha to damage being the big ones) spend some ASIs on the archery style and/or BM maneuvers you can use at range then swap over to another cha casting class for smite slots and secondary benefits (pally 6 for saves or bard for inspiration).

Actually, that would be a funny sort of character progression. Tier 1 youre just a dexadin, becoming increasingly aggravated at being unable to smite at range. You pick up a magic bow at some point and thats your opening to go into hexblade.

Eldritch Smite requires Warlock slots, so straight Warlock is more rewarding for smites.

[Mitchellnotes]

Hex archer is completely fine. As others have said, straight warlock may be more rewarding, though a fighter 2 (or 3 for BM) may be worth it. Id go warlock 5 or 8 first before considering it. Squeezing all the feats in would be tight though. V-human may get the core online first (esp if you are going the hand crossbow route), but 1/2 elf would be the better crit-fisher. Note that crossbow expert creates a lot of bonus action conflict though, so may not be worth considering, it really just depends on what you see yourself doing and how you want to use slots.

The issue with hexbow isn't whether its effective (it is), its really just more that doing so requires a lot of resources compared to just using eldritch blast.

[Hael]

The build is Fighter1/Hexblade X (can go fighter 2-3 after 9th lvl spells) with archery fighting style.

You take elven accuracy and SS and sit in your darkness/devilsight cloud a good distance away. Eventually you can take CBE if you find a magical hand xbow.

Its a classic powergaming build and one of the best archer builds in the entire game (competitive with battlesmith fighters, Kensai SS, Gloomstalkers etc) and yes it will significantly outdamage eldritch blast builds.

Incidentally, smite isnt great for this build in general, as there is anti synergy. Eldritch smite prones the target, which is annoying for a ranged build. (Its good as a crit finisher but perhaps not what you want to be doing first turn of combat).

[Khrysaes]

6 hexblade/14 swords bard

Flourishes work with ranged weapons.

Coincidentally, There are poisonous pistols in Waterdeep Dragonheist (Drow gunslinger). and Laser Pistols in Icewind Dale(Gnome Ceramorphs). So guns ARE in AL. Whether you can use and/or keep them I don't know.

Artificers or Magic weapon spell can make items magical for at least an hour, meaning that a Blade pact warlock can bond with the newly magical gun.

Then you can take the gunner feat.

[Omni-Centrist]

Yo this thread is super dead, but I like a good Hexblade 2/Bladesinger X/Fighter 1 multiclass to get good use out of your bow and cantrip.

[Spiritchaser]

So, I would generally consider eldritch smite to be something of a trap option.

The only place I think it’s good (even outstanding) is in a campaign with a lot of flight, and a lot of airborne foes. This is especially true if there are fewer strong flying opponents.

If you just happen to be playing in a campaign like that, then the ability to hit your opponent with the ground can be more than worth it, and if you are way up at altitude, beyond one turn’s falling distance (yes that’s an optional rule but still) one attack can remove a troublesome foe from the fight to be mopped up later. Well worthwhile

[Dork_Forge]

So, I would generally consider eldritch smite to be something of a trap option.

The only place I think it’s good (even outstanding) is in a campaign with a lot of flight, and a lot of airborne foes. This is especially true if there are fewer strong flying opponents.

If you just happen to be playing in a campaign like that, then the ability to hit your opponent with the ground can be more than worth it, and if you are way up at altitude, beyond one turn’s falling distance (yes that’s an optional rule but still) one attack can remove a troublesome foe from the fight to be mopped up later. Well worthwhile

Why do you value prone so much more than a boatload of force damage?

[Thunderous Mojo]

In terms of theorycraft, I tend to value the Prone rider more than the damage, because Eldritch Smite allows no Saving Throw/Ability Check…which is rare.

The damage, though, is competitive with a Paladin’s Smite, is arguably a better damage type, and should be used whenever one rolls a critical hit.

Sacred Weapon from Oath of Devotion, is a strong enough synergy, that, I would consider it a viable alternative to multi-classing with Fighter.

For one minute…go crazy with the Sharpshooter Cheesewiz.

[Spiritchaser]

Why do you value prone so much more than a boatload of force damage?

Because the prone condition will knock flyers out of the sky.

Again, this is only in the context of an extremely flight dependent campaigns, but knocking a flyer prone gets you a boatload of falling damage OR if you’re far enough up that one round doesn’t bottom your opponent out (per the optional falling rules) it does remove them almost permanently from the encounter, letting you deal with everything else in their absence. That can be incredibly valuable.

[Dork_Forge]

Because the prone condition will knock flyers out of the sky.

Again, this is only in the context of an extremely flight dependent campaigns, but knocking a flyer prone gets you a boatload of falling damage OR if you’re far enough up that one round doesn’t bottom your opponent out (per the optional falling rules) it does remove them almost permanently from the encounter, letting you deal with everything else in their absence. That can be incredibly valuable.

Right, no doubt that's a very nice aspect to it, but i was asking why you value prone so much more than the force damage when the specific thing you're focusing on (proning fliers that are vulnerable to prone) is pretty niche.

[Spiritchaser]

Right, no doubt that's a very nice aspect to it, but i was asking why you value prone so much more than the force damage when the specific thing you're focusing on (proning fliers that are vulnerable to prone) is pretty niche.

I think your answer comes in the context of the type of campaign I’m talking about, in a flight dependent campaign, proning fliers into a mountainside or, sometimes better, out of the encounter until everything else is mopped up, isn’t niche.

Per my original post, I think in any other campaign eldritch smite is more or less a trap option.

[Dork_Forge]

I think your answer comes in the context of the type of campaign I’m talking about, in a flight dependent campaign, proning fliers into a mountainside or, sometimes better, out of the encounter until everything else is mopped up, isn’t niche.

Per my original post, I think in any other campaign eldritch smite is more or less a trap option.

Maybe this will help:

You haven't actually said why you think it's a trap option, why the force damage isn't enough etc.

[Kane0]

I guess because of the limited spell slots available at any give time, and the once per turn limit? Paladins have the option to go nova and as half casters don't have quite as much competition for their slots.

[Spiritchaser]

Maybe this will help:

You haven't actually said why you think it's a trap option, why the force damage isn't enough etc.

Ah, sorry, I’d misinterpreted what you were saying.

I feel that the burst damage does not really measure up to the protection, the control or the sustained damage a warlock could get out of those slots in other ways. Darkness, shadow of Moil, armor of agathys, hypnotic pattern etc, are all worth more to me most of the time.

Sure a boatload of force damage is nice but I’d generally rather have the slots for something else.

Similarly, I’m never so flush for invocations that this feels worthwhile. I’d rather have something more. Take a second tier use of spell slots that has an additional opportunity cost to allow you to do it in the first place?

Are you really sure you want that?

[Kane0]

Ah, sorry, I’d misinterpreted what you were saying.

I feel that the burst damage does not really measure up to the protection, the control or the sustained damage a warlock could get out of those slots in other ways. Darkness, shadow of Moil, armor of agathys, hypnotic pattern etc, are all worth more to me most of the time.

Sure a boatload of force damage is nice but I’d generally rather have the slots for something else.

Similarly, I’m never so flush for invocations that this feels worthwhile. I’d rather have something more. Take a second tier use of spell slots that has an additional opportunity cost to allow you to do it in the first place?

Are you really sure you want that?

Allow the Smite to be used once per short (or long) rest before eating up spell slots. I would do the same with the spell-granting invocations (long rest only in their case).

[Boverk]

Bard Levels for swift quiver and summon greater steed from magical secrets? I think Bard 10 would give you a 5th level magical secrets which would get you a flying mount and 4 attacks per round while concentrating on swift quiver.

[Talionis]

Hexblade 12 for Life Drinker and thirsty blade. 3 levels of Devotion Paladin for doubling use of Charisma to hit targets allows liberal use of Sharpshooter feat and potentially Heavy Armor. The rest full caster for mor spell slots. If using Hand Crossbow you have three shots. Whisper Bard might be the best damage bump.

[CMCC]

I’m sure it’s been mentioned but this was one of Treantmonk’s earliest builds

[Rukelnikov]

The problem here is you are trying to fight against the current... why Bow vs EB? Why not both?

Hexblade 11/Bladesinger 6

You get 3 slots for +6d8 smite every short rest, and since you can only smite once per turn, you can cast EB AND make a ranged Smite on the same turn.

You get 3 more levels to round up stuff like getting Fighter 2 for Style and action Surge, Sorc 3 for quicken (not sure how useful it will be with only 3 sp, but the option is there), or just go Lock12/Blade8 for a couple more ASIs.

[Evaar]

IMO, just stay Warlock. Multiclassing waters you down.

Sharpshooter, Hexblade, and Lifedrinker are going to give you +20 damage base assuming your Charisma is 20. +5 from your standard Charisma bump, +5 again from the Lifedrinker invocation, and +10 from Sharpshooter. You want to use Shadow of Moil so you're firing with Advantage. Ideally you use Elven Accuracy too, so you'll probably do Sharpshooter at 4, Elven Accuracy at 8 (bringing your Cha to 18), and Charisma to 20 at 12.

If you can save Shadow of Moil and rely on your party to get you advantage, so much the better - Shadow of Moil is awesome but it lasts a minute and requires an action, so that's usually going to take the first round of combat to accomplish. Better if you can just open fire.

"Don't I want archery Fighting Style?" Sure... but if you can reliably get advantage with Elven Accuracy, it's not as mandatory. You can pick it up with a single level dip, and I'd do that no earlier than like... level 13.

I played like this, it worked great. The only issue was I got bored.

Some other notes:
* Your bow will be at least a +1, because you're taking Improved Pact Weapon which will set that floor for you. If you find a better bow, great, but +1 is your minimum. So really by 12 your attacks have +21 static damage.
* Your Specter doesn't do great damage, so use it to enable Advantage for yourself. Have it use the Help action. It can't fly away quite as easily as an Owl familiar can, but it is incorporeal - you can use that to slip through a wall as long as it's got an opening on the other side (or else it takes some damage for ending its turn there, although not that much). The Specter lasts all day, starting when you slay a humanoid. Don't forget about it, it's useful.
* You can cast Summon Fey, which lasts an hour, and if you took Devil's Sight you can abuse the Tricksy Fey's bonus action magical darkness to position yourself in a spot to get advantage without having to set up Shadow of Moil every combat. It might be a little hard to pull off since it has to refresh it every turn, but it's better action economy for you. Ideally your enemy is 30 feet away so the little guy can run up, stab, then teleport back and drop a darkness on top of you.
* Possibly less complex but also less reliable, Summon Undead with a Putrid spirit can apply Paralyzed to creatures if they fail their Con saves. I think this is less optimal because you're relying on those failed saves to select your targets for you, but it involves less complex action ordering and positioning so that might be just fine. Plus it's arguably better for your party, since they also benefit from enemies being poisoned and paralyzed.
* As stated above, you want to take Eldritch Smite. Use judiciously, ideally on a crit (which Elven Accuracy will help you with). Just because you crit, though, doesn't mean you need to use it. Consider whether the target is going to have enough health to make it worthwhile.

For most of your career, Hexblade offers you everything you need to be a damn good archer in your own unique way. Just use what it has to the fullest effect, it works. And it works even better if your party recognizes that you can spike the ball even better if they'll set you up.

[Talionis]

Not to be mean but you don’t get anything else to help with crossbowing from Warlock after 12. Maybe 14 for the final Hexblade ability. But nothing after that so dips are okay.

[Hael]

Not to be mean but you don’t get anything else to help with crossbowing from Warlock after 12. Maybe 14 for the final Hexblade ability. But nothing after that so dips are okay.

You get foresight, which is a 50% damage increase and frees up your concentration (spirit shroud, hex, elemental weapon, ranged summons etc).

Late game hexbows are in a very short list amongst the highest dpr archers in the entire game (say 17 hexblade, 3 battlemaster)…

[Evaar]

You get foresight, which is a 50% damage increase and frees up your concentration (spirit shroud, hex, elemental weapon, ranged summons etc).


Not to mention Soul Cage, Mass Suggestion, Forcecage, a 4th spell slot, and more invocations, not all of which strictly improve your archery but that doesn’t mean they aren’t amazing tools. Sacrificing this kind of “win one (1) encounter” button for a couple extra possible DPR on what’s effectively your cantrip is the opposite of optimization, imo.

The reason to make a Hexbow rather than, say, a Samurai is because of the extra versatility you gain from spells and invocations. I feel like a lot of multiclassing sacrifices powerful versatility in service of making the character do one thing somewhat better. 4 of your invocations are reserved for using your bow, plus you likely want Devil’s Sight, you probably want Eldritch Mind, and I think every Warlock should take Whispers of the Grave as soon as they can afford to (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628110-Whispers-of-the-Grave-is-underrated). So that’s 7 valuable invocations, which you’ll get at 15. At 16 is another ASI (so you can pick up the feat for the Archery fighting style here without multiclassing if you’d like, or just pick Lucky), 17 is Foresight. At 18, if you’re still going, okay, sure, multiclass. You probably don’t need that last ASI, invocation, or spell slot.

[Waazraath]

I asked a similar question some time ago, when I had a warlock archery build. Maybe the post and the replies are a help: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?550866-Warlock-archer-competative