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ReluctantReaper
2007-11-20, 10:48 PM
I hear it said a lot on the forum, and I probably know what it is, but can sombedy instruct me to exactly what cheese is...and I dont mean the kind you get from animals and/or milk.

reorith
2007-11-20, 10:52 PM
from the acronym/definition tread


Cheese: Describes an ability, spell, class, or other rule thought to be problematic in some manner. Sometimes used as a synonym for broken, more often refers to a build or rule that makes a character very powerful but not quite broken (eg. spiked chain cheese, divine meta-cheese), especially if the particular build becomes a dominant option for a particular class. Also often applied if the subject is considered absurd or ridiculous - ie. cheesy. For example, double weapons may be considered cheese as they are statistically sound but realistically improbable or impossible. May also refer to stereotypical fluff or backstory.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-20, 10:53 PM
thanks for explaining

osyluth
2007-11-21, 12:54 AM
Also read: Pun-Pun

Sucrose
2007-11-21, 01:50 AM
Also read: Pun-Pun

If used in a game by someone with a doormat DM. Otherwise, just a theoretical exercise.

Cheese is also using rules in ways that clearly weren't intended, like drowning to heal yourself, and the commoner railgun, if actually allowed to use its momentum to determine damage; those probably are mostly just Gedanken experiments too, though.

Chronos
2007-11-21, 03:57 PM
Roughly, if you have to ask yourself "Would my DM allow this in the game, or ban it because it's too powerful?", it's probably cheese. Some DMs will allow some cheesy things, but very few will allow everything, and anything that's cheesy will be banned by a fair number of DMs (even if it's not the same DMs banning all of the cheeses).

Ne0
2007-11-21, 04:01 PM
Also read: Pun-Pun

Pun-pun isn't cheese. It's just a thought exercise to show how easily RAW can be broken. It's not some overly used class option that overpowers the character. But why, oh why, does the kobold HAVE to be mentioned every thread about game mechanics?! :smallmad:

Frosty
2007-11-21, 04:22 PM
I can't believe Spiked Chain and Divine metamagic are lumped into the same category. They're not even *close*. Spiked chains and reach weapons make melee-builds close to being competent, and the chain already requiresa feat to use!

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-21, 05:14 PM
Another example:

Cast gate. Casting gate allows you to summon a Solar.

A solar can cast Gate. Casting Gate allows the solar to summon a solar.
The newly summoned solar can summon a solar... etc.

Technically you can spawn 40000 of them in a single round. That would be very cheesey.

herrhauptmann
2007-11-21, 05:17 PM
Another example:

Cast gate. Casting gate allows you to summon a Solar.

A solar can cast Gate. Casting Gate allows the solar to summon a solar.
The newly summoned solar can summon a solar... etc.

Technically you can spawn 40000 of them in a single round. That would be very cheesey.

Aren't you thinking of the Infinite Titan exercise?

tyckspoon
2007-11-21, 05:25 PM
Infinite Gates works with anything that can use Gate, naturally. Solars have got casting as a 20th level cleric, Titans have it as an SLA.

tainsouvra
2007-11-21, 05:32 PM
I can't believe Spiked Chain and Divine metamagic are lumped into the same category. They're not even *close*. Spiked chains and reach weapons make melee-builds close to being competent, and the chain already requiresa feat to use! It's primarily by comparison of the single weapon, the spiked chain, to any other single weapon in the core books (and many splats). It's a cheesy weapon, even if it doesn't always result in a character that eclipses everything else.

Kantolin
2007-11-21, 05:55 PM
It's a cheesy weapon

If anything, the only reason it can be considered cheesy in core is because, for a core fighter, there aren't a whole lot of options if he's going for battlefield control.

If not restricted to core, a fighter can go with a reach weapon and spiked armour to threaten both areas, thus preventing himself from having to waste a feat to do just that. In core, however, there's the expertise tree, then you may as well squander a feat on the spiked chain.

Chronos
2007-11-21, 07:47 PM
Infinite Gates works with anything that can use Gate, naturally. Solars have got casting as a 20th level cleric, Titans have it as an SLA.Still, there's no guarantee that the particular Solar you called prepared Gate this morning. As long as the average number of Gates prepared per Solar is less than 1, the loop can be expected to close fairly quickly.

But it's still broken, and it's still cheesy. The rules attempted to close that loophole when they said that a summoned creature couldn't use any of its own summoning abilities, but they forgot to add a similar provision for called creatures.