min. Casterlevel for spells beyond 9th lvl?

[Gruftzwerg]

IIRC there are multiple ways to raise a spells level above 9th lvl.

How does this affect the minimum required caster level for a spell.

Imagine you have a Epic Heightened spell of 15th lvl as Wizard somehow. What is the minimum required level to cast the spell?

A) Still 17 since the progress stops there.

B) any formula to proceed beyond 9th lvl

C) something else??

[Promethean]

IIRC there are multiple ways to raise a spells level above 9th lvl.

How does this affect the minimum required caster level for a spell.

Imagine you have a Epic Heightened spell of 15th lvl as Wizard somehow. What is the minimum required level to cast the spell?

A) Still 17 since the progress stops there.

B) any formula to proceed beyond 9th lvl

C) something else??

Honestly, the minimum caster level is probably the caster level the character had when they were first able to cast that spell. Similarly to how wizards have a different minimum caster level to sorcerers and Ur-Priests or other fast advancing casting classes are different from both.

Every situation where a character has achieved beyond 9th level spells is going to be unique to that character because of just how weird beyond 9th level casting is.

[Jervis]

IIRC there are multiple ways to raise a spells level above 9th lvl.

How does this affect the minimum required caster level for a spell.

Imagine you have a Epic Heightened spell of 15th lvl as Wizard somehow. What is the minimum required level to cast the spell?

A) Still 17 since the progress stops there.

B) any formula to proceed beyond 9th lvl

C) something else??

As a related side note whats the minimum CL for a class that doesnt normally get spells above 6th or 4th or wat have you? Whats the minimum CL for a 7th level paladin spell (this matters because SotAO and domains)?

As far as i'm aware the rules have always been clear that spells have a minimum CL but never says what that minimum CL is. These are some arguments i've seen.

Universal minimum of Spell Level x 2 - 1: Spontaneous casters and the like get spell slots later but work fine under this assumption. Falls apart with the existence of Ur-priest and similar though.

Earliest level your class gets the spell: Doesn't work with slots higher than class chart, but works fine otherwise. Slots of higher levels need some questions answered.

We never defined it so there is none lul :tongue: : all scrolls are free

Personally i go for the ruling that the minimum caster level depends on when your class gets it and thus higher level spell slots have the minimum CL of whatever CL you have when you got it. Inconsistent? Extremely. But it's the best i've got.

[Gruftzwerg]

The problem I have is regarding warlocks "Imbue Item" ability. When I try to Scribe Scrolls, I fake the spell with an UMD roll. The question is still, how do I determine the minimum casterlevel of a spell beyond 9th lvl?
(It's relevant due to some spells relying on the caster lvl..).

Or is the minimum required caster lvl not affected by metamagic/(epic) heightened spell?

[Jervis]

The problem I have is regarding warlocks "Imbue Item" ability. When I try to Scribe Scrolls, I fake the spell with an UMD roll. The question is still, how do I determine the minimum casterlevel of a spell beyond 9th lvl?
(It's relevant due to some spells relying on the caster lvl..).

Or is the minimum required caster lvl not affected by metamagic/(epic) heightened spell?

Seriously though why do you need a scroll of a 10th level spell? I don’t think you can make scrolls of epic spells or spells with metamagic applied.

[Promethean]

The problem I have is regarding warlocks "Imbue Item" ability. When I try to Scribe Scrolls, I fake the spell with an UMD roll. The question is still, how do I determine the minimum casterlevel of a spell beyond 9th lvl?
(It's relevant due to some spells relying on the caster lvl..).

With that specifically, probably 21st level at the absolute minimum. Even with cheese. It's what the epic magic feat requires.

Are you an epic level warlock? If not, then you should know Imbue item doesn't allow you to wave caster level requirements.



Or is the minimum required caster lvl not affected by metamagic/(epic) heightened spell?

Nope. Metamagic is something else altogether. As I understand it, metamagic is added separately as if you were making an item that gave you a feat.

[sreservoir]

Oh, this is actually one case where minimum caster levels are explicit (but it's still hidden under a section about magic items...):

Spells with an effective level of 10th or higher are possible at epic levels. Because these spell slots aren’t automatically gained at a particular level like 0- to 9th-level spells are, they don’t have a minimum caster level. For this reason, the minimum caster level for any spell of 10th level or higher is set at 11 + spell level.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Oh, this is actually one case where minimum caster levels are explicit (but it's still hidden under a section about magic items...):

Good find, thank you!

It also seems to imply that the minimum caster level is the level at which a class first gets the spell, which doesn't work for high level paladin spells (but seriously, would you expect WotC to take that into account?).

[Jervis]

Good find, thank you!

It also seems to imply that the minimum caster level is the level at which a class first gets the spell, which doesn't work for high level paladin spells (but seriously, would you expect WotC to take that into account?).

The question can come up in epic easily, before that with some mild optimancy and spell level cheese.

[Gruftzwerg]

Seriously though why do you need a scroll of a 10th level spell? I don’t think you can make scrolls of epic spells or spells with metamagic applied.
Because of metamagic for higher lvl spells without any other metamagic reducers (as craftlock - scribe scrolls).
Epic Heighten Spell will be part of the build.



Are you an epic level warlock? If not, then you should know Imbue item doesn't allow you to wave caster level requirements.
Sry but I don't think so. Imbue Item lets you fake the entire cast. This includes the required caster level & component to cast those spells. It all boils down to an UMD roll.

Yeah, the character build is going to be 20+ and will have Epic Heightened Spell. My intention is to raise the Clvl for some spells as much as possible for the build.



Oh, this is actually one case where minimum caster levels are explicit (but it's still hidden under a section about magic items...):

THX <3
Yeah, I should have known that the right place for the rule ain't there where you expect it..^^
Explains why I couldn't find it.

[sreservoir]

Good find, thank you!

It also seems to imply that the minimum caster level is the level at which a class first gets the spell, which doesn't work for high level paladin spells (but seriously, would you expect WotC to take that into account?).

Well, it implies that it has something to do with the level at which a class automatically gains spell slots; it doesn't contradict the general implication from pretty much everything that notes the existence of minimum caster levels that the minimum caster level for a spell is (one of several formations that are equivalent, at least for PH classes, to) the caster level of single-classed caster when they first gain at least 0 slots of that spell level. We get a pretty clear picture of what the "normal" case looks like e.g. the scroll cost table (... typo notwithstanding); like, I don't think there are a lot of people out there who simultaneously read that minimum caster levels are required to cast a spell but also thinks the minimum caster level for a wizard's fireball is something other than 5.

It's the profusion of edge cases that are hard to put a number on without having the implied rules spelled out.

[Jervis]

Example the aforementioned extra slot Illumian paladins and aspiring chameleon dragon disciples who can hit spells above their cap pre epic. We really don’t have any clue what those are suppose to be.

[Vaern]

If not for sreservoir having the particular ruling on hand I'd have suggested that the minimum caster level of any spells of 10th level or above should be 21, since they're locked behind feats that become available beginning at level 21 rather than behind class level progression.


As a related side note whats the minimum CL for a class that doesnt normally get spells above 6th or 4th or wat have you? Whats the minimum CL for a 7th level paladin spell (this matters because SotAO and domains)?

This question is made a bit more complicated by the fact that spell slots and spells known of these levels can sometimes become available at pre-epic levels under perfectly normal conditions due to odd spellcasting progression, despite the game doesn't really acknowledge or accommodate them pre-epic. In particular, the Sublime Chord gains access to bard, sorcerer, and wizard spells of levels 4th through 9th. This means they can technically learn and cast 7th, 8th, and 9th level bard spells by levels 15, 17, and 19, respectively, despite the fact that none exist barring metamagic and independent spell research.

[Jervis]

If not for sreservoir having the particular ruling on hand I'd have suggested that the minimum caster level of any spells of 10th level or above should be 21, since they're locked behind feats that become available beginning at level 21 rather than behind class level progression.



This question is made a bit more complicated by the fact that spell slots and spells known of these levels can sometimes become available at pre-epic levels under perfectly normal conditions due to odd spellcasting progression, despite the game doesn't really acknowledge or accommodate them pre-epic. In particular, the Sublime Chord gains access to bard, sorcerer, and wizard spells of levels 4th through 9th. This means they can technically learn and cast 7th, 8th, and 9th level bard spells by levels 15, 17, and 19, respectively, despite the fact that none exist barring metamagic and independent spell research.

What do you think a valid rule for this would be? I personally just put it at either whatever CL you have when you get it or follow a progression if it’s a prestige class. Example CL 22 for 7th level chameleon spells or something

[Promethean]

Sry but I don't think so. Imbue Item lets you fake the entire cast. This includes the required caster level & component to cast those spells. It all boils down to an UMD roll.


It's not the spell I'm talking about As per Imbue item:

Imbue Item (Su): A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spells required to make an item (although he must know the appropriate item creation feat). He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast.

If the check succeeds, the warlock can create the item as if he had cast the required spell. If it fails, he cannot complete the item. He does not expend the XP or gp costs for making the item; his progress is simply arrested. He cannot retry this Use Magic Device check for that spell until he gains a new level.

Which doesn't allow you to substitute out the caster level of the item itself which is a separate As per SRD:

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

This means that while technically say that the "Can't cast" line allows you to act like you can "fake cast" a spell of higher caster level than your character's Actual caster level, you still can't craft an Item using that spell because it's not less than or equal to your actual caster level.

Secondly, the creation of 10th level and above spells requires epic item creation:


Caster Level
Spells with an effective level of 10th or higher are possible at epic levels. Because these spell slots aren’t automatically gained at a particular level like 0- to 9th-level spells are, they don’t have a minimum caster level. For this reason, the minimum caster level for any spell of 10th level or higher is set at 11 + spell level.

Prerequisites
In addition to the materials and tools required for nonepic magic items, any epic magic item requires at least two item creation feats: the epic and nonepic version.




Yeah, the character build is going to be 20+ and will have Epic Heightened Spell. My intention is to raise the Clvl for some spells as much as possible for the build.

If you're an epic level character then you're good.

You can't apply epic heighten to your imbue item ability, and you wouldn't need to anyway. The Imbue item ability let's you fake any spells, which would mean it already includes meta-magic in that category, the feat is unnecessary.

[Gruftzwerg]

It's not the spell I'm talking about As per Imbue item:


Which doesn't allow you to substitute out the caster level of the item itself which is a separate As per SRD:


This means that while technically say that the "Can't cast" line allows you to act like you can "fake cast" a spell of higher caster level than your character's Actual caster level, you still can't craft an Item using that spell because it's not less than or equal to your actual caster level.

Secondly, the creation of 10th level and above spells requires epic item creation:





If you're an epic level character then you're good.

You can't apply epic heighten to your imbue item ability, and you wouldn't need to anyway. The Imbue item ability let's you fake any spells, which would mean it already includes meta-magic in that category, the feat is unnecessary.

Your assumption would imply that a warlock never can craft any divine spell related items since his divine caster level is normally 0 (unless he dipped into divine classes..).

As said, you fake with Imbue Item the entire spellcast components/requirements including the caster level requirement for the item. Any other interpretation causes the divine part of the ability to become dysfunctional (which is why I disagree).


And I already pointed out that the character in question has Epic Heightened Spell (epic feat, thus the character has to be epic), which includes Heightened Spell as requirement. I also have both Epic Scribe scrolls and the normal version. So that is checked.

And I disagree on faking metamagic with imbue Item. A "Maximized Fireball" is not a new/separate spell. It's still a Fireball spell altered by metamagic. Thus a warlock still needs to provide the metamagic feats when faking spells via Imbue Item.

Further..

Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
Imbue Item doesn't bypass this general crafting rule for magic items.

[Promethean]

Your assumption would imply that a warlock never can craft any divine spell related items since his divine caster level is normally 0 (unless he dipped into divine classes..).

No? Most Divine magic items don't have a "divine caster level" outside of edge cases, so for most you can get away with an arcane caster level



As said, you fake with Imbue Item the entire spellcast components/requirements including the caster level requirement for the item. Any other interpretation causes the divine part of the ability to become dysfunctional (which is why I disagree).

Let me reiterate the SRD quote. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

This means that a magic item can never have a higher caster level than its creator, even with imbue item. It Must be less than or equal to their caster level.



And I already pointed out that the character in question has Epic Heightened Spell (epic feat, thus the character has to be epic), which includes Heightened Spell as requirement. I also have both Epic Scribe scrolls and the normal version. So that is checked.

Okay.



And I disagree on faking metamagic with imbue Item. A "Maximized Fireball" is not a new/separate spell. It's still a Fireball spell altered by metamagic. Thus a warlock still needs to provide the metamagic feats when faking spells via Imbue Item.

Further..

Imbue Item doesn't bypass this general crafting rule for magic items.


The rule you quoted says "Can" not "have to". That means metamagic isn't necessarily a requirement to do so and other effects are valid.

Imbue item is thus entirely valid on its own for creating the meta-magicked versions of spells. Heck, with the spell research and creation rules, you can technically Make-Up new spells to add to magic items(with DM approval).

[Jervis]

No? Most Divine magic items don't have a "divine caster level" outside of edge cases, so for most you can get away with an arcane caster level



Let me reiterate the SRD quote. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

This means that a magic item can never have a higher caster level than its creator, even with imbue item. It Must be less than or equal to their caster level.



Okay.




The rule you quoted says "Can" not "have to". That means metamagic isn't necessarily a requirement to do so and other effects are valid.

Imbue item is thus entirely valid on its own for creating the meta-magicked versions of spells. Heck, with the spell research and creation rules, you can technically Make-Up new spells to add to magic items(with DM approval).

Waaaaaaait could you make divine scrolls of arcane spells or vice versa by applying alternative source metamagic? For that matter is there anything stopping you from just… making a spell that’s normally only divine as a arcane scroll through the logic of wyrm wizard

[Promethean]

Waaaaaaait could you make divine scrolls of arcane spells or vice versa by applying alternative source metamagic? For that matter is there anything stopping you from just… making a spell that’s normally only divine as a arcane scroll through the logic of wyrm wizard

Nothing is stopping you rules wise(except if the DM makes rocks fall), go crazy.

[Gruftzwerg]

No? Most Divine magic items don't have a "divine caster level" outside of edge cases, so for most you can get away with an arcane caster level Tell that to scribe scrolls and craft wands..
And even if I ignore that issue, you still haven't given any logical argument, how a warlock fakes divine spells under your interpretation. A divine spell always needs a divine caster level to cast, warlock by itself only provides arcane spells. The Imbue Item ability makes it clear that you only need an UMD roll to craft those divine spell related items and doesn't say that you need something else to get your divine caster levels (e.g. Alternate Spell Source or Southern Magician).
Sorry, but your interpretation only causes dysfunctions, while mine doesn't. (unless you can show me how a warlock casts divine spells with your point of view)




Let me reiterate the SRD quote. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

This means that a magic item can never have a higher caster level than its creator, even with imbue item. It Must be less than or equal to their caster level.

The interaction between the target magic item and the spell is determined at the time when you "normally" cast the spell for the crafting purpose. UMD fakes that process.

He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast.
A warlock can't cast divine spells and lacks the divine caster level for it. Nor does he cast spells at all. When this "specific" ability bypasses the general crafting rules, the "caster level" is also bypassed, because that is part of the "cast"-process that gets bypassed.



The rule you quoted says "Can" not "have to". That means metamagic isn't necessarily a requirement to do so and other effects are valid.

Imbue item is thus entirely valid on its own for creating the meta-magicked versions of spells. Heck, with the spell research and creation rules, you can technically Make-Up new spells to add to magic items(with DM approval).

I guess you didn't get my interpretation of the quoted sentence, so I'll try it again.


Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
Imbue Item still does not help you to have the feats. If you want to craft a metamagic version of an item (e.g. a scroll), you need to provide the metamagic feat. Imbu Item talks about spells required to craft, not about metamagic feats needed to craft. That part remains untouched. Thus, a warlock needs the required metamagic feat he wants to apply to his magic item he wants to craft.


To give you a similar UMD example:
Remember that UMD can already fake caster levels by default for reading scrolls. Normally you need to provide the right (arcane/divine) caster level to use a scroll. The UMD roll for "using a scroll" fakes that, even if the UMD ability doesn't spell it out exactly. UMD just talks that it fakes anything required to activate the scroll. That includes the caster level.
If we now go back to Imbue Item, we have a similar situation. Imbue Item allows you to bypass the required spell cast, which again includes the caster level needed for that. Without the need to explicitly call that out. Like in the chase of using a scroll with UMD. If I would follow you interpretation, a non-caster could never UMD to use a scroll.