No longer valid target

[diplomancer]

Does a spell persist if, after it's cast at a valid target, the target becomes invalid? Some possible use cases, along with my answer:

1- Hold Person, affected target gets Polymorphed: Target remains paralyzed, but automatically passes the next saving throw.

2- Charm Person, affected target gets Polymorphed or Wild Shapes: Charmed condition remains for the entirety of the spell

3- Hypnotic Pattern, affected target gets Charmed immunity (maybe a Devotion Paladin came up after spell was cast): spell is broken. Though a good case could be made to only suspend it while the target gets Charm immunity, it's hard to justify that from an in-game perspective, since the pattern appears only for an instant, which brings us to:

4- Fear spell: as above, but I'd say that the source of the fear, being internal, comes back if the Frightened immunity gets suppressed afterwards.

5: Fly spell, target dies (and thus is not a creature anymore) and gets Revivified. Is the Fly spell still active? This one I'd tentatively say yes, but am very open to being convinced otherwise.

Is there any official guidance on this question? Whether it exists or not, how would you rule it as a DM? And if there are other general cases I haven't thought of, feel free to add them and to say how you'd rule it.

[Amnestic]

From a Crawford tweet (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/931621590730653696) the spell/effect is temporarily suppressed while the target is no longer valid, become active again once the target is valid again.

Not clear if they still get to save to end the effect while suppressed, but I'd say no personally. While suppressed its suppressed: you can't roll a save against something that "isn't there".

[RSP]

Does a spell persist if, after it's cast at a valid target, the target becomes invalid? Some possible use cases, along with my answer:


Personally, I’d treat it as once in effect, it’s in effect. I see it just like leaving the Range of a spell after it’s been cast.

For instance, leaving the Range of Suggestion after being affected by the spell doesn’t end the effect.

For me, once the magic takes hold on a valid target, it’s in place: you can’t go back and retroactively change it to “no longer a valid target”.

Obviously, just my view on it.

[Keravath]

Personally, I’d treat it as once in effect, it’s in effect. I see it just like leaving the Range of a spell after it’s been cast.

For instance, leaving the Range of Suggestion after being affected by the spell doesn’t end the effect.

For me, once the magic takes hold on a valid target, it’s in place: you can’t go back and retroactively change it to “no longer a valid target”.

Obviously, just my view on it.

I think I would tend to rule the same way. The spell requires a specific type of target when it is cast - e.g. humanoid for hold person - the spell then imposes the paralysed condition. The paralysed condition is not dependent on the creature or target type so even if the target becomes invalid for another casting of hold person, I would tend to rule that the magical effect remains in force until the spell or concentration ends.

In the case of a paladin providing immunity to fear or charm - the fear or charmed condition would be suspended while the character was inside the aura but would return if they left the aura and if the magic that created the fear/charm was still operating.

[AIResearch]

Here's a thorny question that deals with the issues that have been brought up so far. If I True Polymorph a humanoid corpse into a creature does it retain its personality?

[diplomancer]

Here's a thorny question that deals with the issues that have been brought up so far. If I True Polymorph a humanoid corpse into a creature does it retain its personality?

I'm not sure corpses have a personality :p

[AIResearch]

I'm not sure corpses have a personality :p

Sure they do. If you Revivify/ Speak with Dead/ Raise Dead/ Reincarnate/ Resurrect/ True Resurrect a corpse you get the personality.

[RSP]

Sure they do. If you Revivify/ Speak with Dead/ Raise Dead/ Reincarnate/ Resurrect/ True Resurrect a corpse you get the personality.

Those spells cause the loss of the corpse; they don’t show a corpse with personality (the only example I can think of for a corpse with personality is Bernie from Weekend at Bernie’s).

[AIResearch]

Those spells cause the loss of the corpse; they don’t show a corpse with personality (the only example I can think of for a corpse with personality is Bernie from Weekend at Bernie’s).

We know from those spells that actual corpses still know what they knew in life and can return to what they were in life via certain methods unless the corpse has been turned into an undead. Turning a corpse into an undead causes the corpse to lose capabilities it still retains even as a corpse.

The thorny stuff comes up when you throw True Polymorph into the mix as True Polymorph has three modes at casting and those modes involve targets and destinations (e.g. Creature Into Creature, Object Into Creature, Creature Into Object). If we ponder the premise that spells with ongoing effects such as Hold Person don't require valid targeting for their duration then True Polymorph breaks as its ongoing magical effect must retain its targeting.

[Keravath]

We know from those spells that actual corpses still know what they knew in life and can return to what they were in life via certain methods unless the corpse has been turned into an undead. Turning a corpse into an undead causes the corpse to lose capabilities it still retains even as a corpse.

The thorny stuff comes up when you throw True Polymorph into the mix as True Polymorph has three modes at casting and those modes involve targets and destinations (e.g. Creature Into Creature, Object Into Creature, Creature Into Object). If we ponder the premise that spells with ongoing effects such as Hold Person don't require valid targeting for their duration then True Polymorph breaks as its ongoing magical effect must retain its targeting.

This gets a little metaphysical but as far as I know it is the spirit of the dead creature that retains the personality, not the corpse.

Resurrection/True Resurrection: "You touch a dead creature that has been dead for no more than a century/200 years, that didn't die of old age, and that isn't undead. If its soul is free and willing, the target returns to life with all its hit points."

Raise Dead: "You return a dead creature you touch to life, provided that it has been dead no longer than 10 days. If the creature's soul is both willing and at liberty to rejoin the body, the creature returns to life with 1 hit point."

Revivify is the only one that does not reference a willing soul being required to restore a creature to life.

Speak with Dead: "You grant the semblance of life and intelligence to a corpse of your choice within range, allowing it to answer the questions you pose."

This only grants the semblance of life and doesn't retain a personality or alignment. All the corpse retains is knowledge "The corpse knows only what it knew in life, including the languages it knew."

Based on this, if I was ruling it, casting true polymorph gets you the creature you create with its inherent personality and nothing from the corpse that might have been used as the target of the spell, the same as you would get casting true polymorph on a rock or any other inanimate object.

[AIResearch]

This gets a little metaphysical but as far as I know it is the spirit of the dead creature that retains the personality, not the corpse.

Resurrection/True Resurrection: "You touch a dead creature that has been dead for no more than a century/200 years, that didn't die of old age, and that isn't undead. If its soul is free and willing, the target returns to life with all its hit points."

Raise Dead: "You return a dead creature you touch to life, provided that it has been dead no longer than 10 days. If the creature's soul is both willing and at liberty to rejoin the body, the creature returns to life with 1 hit point."

Revivify is the only one that does not reference a willing soul being required to restore a creature to life.

Speak with Dead: "You grant the semblance of life and intelligence to a corpse of your choice within range, allowing it to answer the questions you pose."

This only grants the semblance of life and doesn't retain a personality or alignment. All the corpse retains is knowledge "The corpse knows only what it knew in life, including the languages it knew."

Based on this, if I was ruling it, casting true polymorph gets you the creature you create with its inherent personality and nothing from the corpse that might have been used as the target of the spell, the same as you would get casting true polymorph on a rock or any other inanimate object.

The key differences between casting True Polymorph on a corpse versus a rock is first that a corpse has a detached yet magically recoverable soul (personality and alignment) associated with it and second that a corpse is somehow additionally a repository of knowledge that can be communicated with (the corpse itself is a record that can be played to produce a conversation that accesses the knowledge stored within).

I agree with your ruling and add to it that the case of True Polymorph provides an answer to the question posed by the thread insofar as it indicates that ongoing magical effects retain their original targeting as part of the ongoing effect. The ongoing magical effect for True Polymorph isn't just the result (Whatever Into Creature) but targeting included (Creature into Creature or Object Into Creature) based on parameters set at casting.

Interestingly, if someone were to True Polymorph a corpse into a creature then it seems to produce an interesting phenomena. A creature with Truesight (such as a Planetar) can perceive the corpse and Raise that corpse back to life which would then suppress the True Polymorph (as its ongoing magical effect requires an object) until the creature dies again.

[RSP]

Interestingly, if someone were to True Polymorph a corpse into a creature then it seems to produce an interesting phenomena. A creature with Truesight (such as a Planetar) can perceive the corpse and Raise that corpse back to life which would then suppress the True Polymorph (as its ongoing magical effect requires an object) until the creature dies again.

There is no corpse to raise, as it’s been TP.

[AIResearch]

There is no corpse to raise, as it’s been TP.

Truesight sees past the ongoing magical effect of True Polymorph and perceives the corpse that is enchanted by True Polymorph.

[Composer99]

Truesight sees past the ongoing magical effect of True Polymorph and perceives the corpse that is enchanted by True Polymorph.

Yes, but it doesn't dispel the true polymorph.

[AIResearch]

Yes, but it doesn't dispel the true polymorph.

That's not relevant. A creature with Truesight perceives things as they actually are which enables them to target the dead creature if they should so choose.

[RSP]

Truesight sees past the ongoing magical effect of True Polymorph and perceives the corpse that is enchanted by True Polymorph.

There is no corpse: it’s been changed into a creature.


That's not relevant. A creature with Truesight perceives things as they actually are which enables them to target the dead creature if they should so choose.

No. Seeing a corpse isn’t the same as there being a corpse there.

[JackPhoenix]

That's not relevant. A creature with Truesight perceives things as they actually are which enables them to target the dead creature if they should so choose.

It is, because Resurrection requires you to touch the dead creature you want to resurrect, but if True Polymorphed, the dead creature is not there, there's only the living (or undead, but that doesn't make a difference) creature the corpse was polymorphed into. Seeing the original corpse won't fix that. If something with truesight looks at wildshaped druid, it sees the druid's original form, but it still can't affect him with Charm Person, because the druid is beast instead of a humanoid while wildshaped.

[AIResearch]

It is, because Resurrection requires you to touch the dead creature you want to resurrect, but if True Polymorphed, the dead creature is not there, there's only the living (or undead, but that doesn't make a difference) creature the corpse was polymorphed into. Seeing the original corpse won't fix that. If something with truesight looks at wildshaped druid, it sees the druid's original form, but it still can't affect him with Charm Person, because the druid is beast instead of a humanoid while wildshaped.

If you were talking about pre-errata True Polymorph then you would be correct.

[RSP]

If you were talking about pre-errata True Polymorph then you would be correct.

Not sure what part of the errata you’re referring to.

[AIResearch]

Not sure what part of the errata you’re referring to.

Pre-errata, True Polymorph would actually permanently transform.

Post-errata, True Polymorph applies an ongoing magical effect to a creature/object that is always there to produce another creature/object that is only conditionally here. Post-errata, the ongoing magical effect can be dispelled, circumvented, or shut off by naturally occuring zones so there is no actual true transformation. If the creature enters a dead magic zone or an antimagic field or the True Polymorph is dispelled or the creature is perceived by Truesight, the lack of a true transformation is revealed.

[JackPhoenix]

Pre-errata, True Polymorph would actually permanently transform.

Post-errata, True Polymorph applies an ongoing magical effect to a creature/object to produce another creature/object. Post-errata, the ongoing magical effect can be dispelled, circumvented, or shut off so there is no actual true transformation. If the creature enters a dead magic zone or an antimagic field or the True Polymorph is dispelled or the creature is perceived by Truesight, the lack of a true transformation is revealed.

Doesn't change anything. You still can't touch the dead creature unless you end the True Polymorph first.

[AIResearch]

Doesn't change anything. You still can't touch the dead creature unless you end the True Polymorph first.

Ok. So the Raise Dead will need to be cast with a Distant meta-magic.

Edit: Correction. Distant meta-magic is not required. Touching the extents of a magically altered object/creature is still touching the object/creature.

[Composer99]

Distant metamagic won't do anything. Truesight allows a creature to perceive the true form of a shapechanger or a creature that has been transformed by magic, but it's not dispel magic - the transformation is still in effect.

So a creature with truesight can perceive that a corpse has been transformed into a creature, but spells that target corpses would still fail when cast on the creature because it isn't a corpse until the transformation ends.

[RSP]

Pre-errata, True Polymorph would actually permanently transform.

Post-errata, True Polymorph applies an ongoing magical effect to a creature/object that is always there to produce another creature/object that is only conditionally here. Post-errata, the ongoing magical effect can be dispelled, circumvented, or shut off by naturally occuring zones so there is no actual true transformation. If the creature enters a dead magic zone or an antimagic field or the True Polymorph is dispelled or the creature is perceived by Truesight, the lack of a true transformation is revealed.

No. The errata doesn’t change that there is a very real transformation. The corpse doesn’t exist so long as the transformation continues.

[AIResearch]

Distant metamagic won't do anything. Truesight allows a creature to perceive the true form of a shapechanger or a creature that has been transformed by magic, but it's not dispel magic - the transformation is still in effect.

So a creature with truesight can perceive that a corpse has been transformed into a creature, but spells that target corpses would still fail when cast on the creature because it isn't a corpse until the transformation ends.

Post-errata, True Polymorph is a magical extension like a persistent Alter Self since nothing is actually permanently transformed and is rather the result of an ongoing magical effect that transforms A to B.

Just as you can touch and interact with a creature that has Alter Self growing itself outward in all dimensions you can touch a dead corpse that is magically altered into something else.


No. The errata doesn’t change that there is a very real transformation. The corpse doesn’t exist so long as the transformation continues.

Pre-errata that would be correct. Pre-errata, True Polymorph would permanently transform the dead corpse into a dragon such that it could not be dispelled, Truesight would see a dragon, and an antimagic field would give you a dragon. The dead corpse is entirely gone, having been permanently transformed into an actual true dragon.

Post-errata, True Polymorph applies an ongoing magical effect that turns the dead corpse that is always there into a dragon that is entirely a spell effect and not a true dragon. Dispel Magic reveals the dead corpse. Truesight reveals things as they truly are and reveals the dead corpse. And an antimagic field reveals a dead corpse. The dead corpse has not actually been truly transformed.

[RSP]

Post-errata, True Polymorph is a magical extension like a persistent Alter Self since nothing is actually permanently transformed and is rather the result of an ongoing magical effect that transforms A to B.

Just as you can touch and interact with a creature that has Alter Self growing itself outward in all dimensions you can touch a dead corpse that is magically altered into something else.



Pre-errata that would be correct. Pre-errata, True Polymorph would permanently transform the dead corpse into a dragon such that it could not be dispelled, Truesight would see a dragon, and an antimagic field would give you a dragon. The dead corpse is entirely gone, having been permanently transformed into an actual true dragon.

Post-errata, True Polymorph applies an ongoing magical effect that turns the dead corpse that is always there into a dragon that is entirely a spell effect and not a true dragon. Dispel Magic reveals the dead corpse. Truesight reveals things as they truly are and reveals the dead corpse. And an antimagic field reveals a dead corpse. The dead corpse has not actually been truly transformed.

No, there is no corpse hidden in a creature. There is no corpse at all, only the creature.

Think of this: if a Huge-sized dragon Polymorph a into a human, do they stay Huge? How does such a large body hide within one much smaller?

Because that dragon is gone: so long as the spell is in effect, it doesn’t exist and is actually now a human.

[Composer99]

Post-errata, True Polymorph is a magical extension like a persistent Alter Self since nothing is actually permanently transformed and is rather the result of an ongoing magical effect that transforms A to B.

Just as you can touch and interact with a creature that has Alter Self growing itself outward in all dimensions you can touch a dead corpse that is magically altered into something else.



Pre-errata that would be correct. Pre-errata, True Polymorph would permanently transform the dead corpse into a dragon such that it could not be dispelled, Truesight would see a dragon, and an antimagic field would give you a dragon. The dead corpse is entirely gone, having been permanently transformed into an actual true dragon.

Post-errata, True Polymorph applies an ongoing magical effect that turns the dead corpse that is always there into a dragon that is entirely a spell effect and not a true dragon. Dispel Magic reveals the dead corpse. Truesight reveals things as they truly are and reveals the dead corpse. And an antimagic field reveals a dead corpse. The dead corpse has not actually been truly transformed.

Errata have nothing to do with it. Truesight does not end spells. It's that simple.

[AIResearch]

No, there is no corpse hidden in a creature. There is no corpse at all, only the creature.

Think of this: if a Huge-sized dragon Polymorph a into a human, do they stay Huge? How does such a large body hide within one much smaller?

Because that dragon is gone: so long as the spell is in effect, it doesn’t exist and is actually now a human.

{Scrubbed}

First, can you clarify a few things . . .

In the case of a human True Polymorphed into a dragon . . .

1) Do you agree that Dispel Magic removes the spell effect and reveals the human?

2) Do you agree that if you put the dragon into an Antimagic Field the spell effect would be suppressed and you would reveal the human?

3) Do you agree that Truesight would not affect the spell effect at all and yet would reveal the human juxtaposed somehow with the dragon such that you would perceive a human that has been magically altered to be a dragon?

[RSP]

You aren't quite understanding the situation.


I am understanding the situation. There is no corpse to cast on: only the True Polymorphed creature. The corpse does not exist while the TP magic is ongoing.

[Chronos]

Speak with Dead must involve something resembling a personality, because the corpse isn't obligated to tell the truth. How can it make the decision whether to tell the truth, if it has no personality?

[RSP]

Speak with Dead must involve something resembling a personality, because the corpse isn't obligated to tell the truth. How can it make the decision whether to tell the truth, if it has no personality?

Per the spell, it’s an “animating spirit” that is at work. Also, the spell magic creates “the semblance of life and intelligence”.

A DM needs to figure out how that works and what an “animating spirit” is. Does the magic, which is the providing the intellect and semblance of life, also provide the personality?

Nothing says the corpse retains its personality. And if it did, I’d imagine that would be something skeletons and zombies then also retained.

[AIResearch]

Nothing is "revealed". It changes back. While the True Polymorph magic is in effect, it's the new thing instead of the old thing. It's a transmutation effect, not an illusion.

Your comment is pertient but only to the first question above. Dispel Magic does end the spell and the trandformation reverts when True Polymorph ends. But an Antimagic Field does not end the spell. So what is revealed in an Antimagic Field? And neither does Truesight end the spell - so what does Truesight reveal?


I am understanding the situation. There is no corpse to cast on: only the True Polymorphed creature. The corpse does not exist while the TP magic is ongoing.

Can you clarify what your answers are to the questions I posed above? I am specifically interested in your answers to 2 and 3 above.

[JackPhoenix]

So what is revealed in an Antimagic Field?

Nothing is 'revealed'. AMF temporarily suppress the transformation, causing the creature physically change back to its original form.


And neither does Truesight end the spell - so what does Truesight reveal?

Truesight will reveal what the original form is, presumably as an visual superimposed over the transformed form. That doesn't mean the original form is physically there, available to be touched.

[RSP]

Can you clarify what your answers are to the questions I posed above? I am specifically interested in your answers to 2 and 3 above.

They have nothing to do with the fact that there is no corpse while TP is in effect.

[AIResearch]

Nothing is 'revealed'. AMF temporarily suppress the transformation, causing the creature physically change back to its original form.

Per the spell description, the spell has to end in order for the creature to revert back. Dispel Magic ends the spell. AMF just stops magic from functioning. Since the exact same human is revealed whether the spell reverts or the spell simply shut offs, there is no actual true transformation of the creature. AMF simply removes the magic and reveals what is actually there. What is actually there is the human. The dragon is 100% a spell effect.



Truesight will reveal what the original form is, presumably as an visual superimposed over the transformed form. That doesn't mean the original form is physically there, available to be touched.

Truesight reveals what is actually there separate from magic. If you cast Alter Self on a winged tiefling to make it look like a Wyrmling you would similarly see the winged tiefling juxtaposed on the Wyrmling. And just as you can touch the winged tiefling when you touch the Wyrmling transmutation you will be touching the human when you touch the dragon. Transmutation magic does not prevent touching a transmuted object.




They have nothing to do with the fact that there is no corpse while TP is in effect.

So then you should have no trouble whatsoever answering the questions posed as your answers would support your argument that the answers are irrelevant. Refusing to answer means the answers to those questions disprove your argument.

[AIResearch]

Why are you insisting that a transmutation that changes something from one thing to another while the spell is in effect is some kind of illusion?

I have never made that claim. I have stated that True Polymorph is entirely a spell effect and that spell effect can be perceived through with Truesight to reveal what is actually there apart from the magic. I make those statements based on the rules of the game, the post-errata spell description for True Polymorph, and the definition of Truesight. Truesight, by definition, treats magical transformations as hiding/disguising what is actually there.

[RSP]

So then you should have no trouble whatsoever answering the questions posed as your answers would support your argument that the answers are irrelevant. Refusing to answer means the answers to those questions disprove your argument.

I had zero trouble answering those questions, though apparently you disliked my answer.

There is still no corpse on which to cast TR in your original situation.


Truesight, by definition, treats magical transformations as hiding/disguising what is actually there.

No, it doesn’t. It says “…perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic.”

Original form doesn’t mean “hiding/disguising what is actually there.” It just means it was one thing and is now another.

Truesight doesn’t revert a TP back to its original form, it just shows the viewer what the “original form” of the target of the TP was.

Knowing a Horse used to be a corpse, doesn’t mean the corpse is there.

[AIResearch]

I had zero trouble answering those questions, though apparently you disliked my answer.


{Scrubbed}

The corpse is always there in the post-errata version of True Polymorph. Antimagic Field does not end the spell and revert the transformation. That is what Dispel Magic does. Rather Antimagic Field suspends the spell effect and reveals the corpse that is always there. Truesight reveals things as they actually are. Truesight sees past the transformational magic that is actively being applied to the corpse as a spell effect to perceive the corpse upon which the spell effect is applied.

It looks like you are just clinging to a pre-errata version of True Polymorph which 'baked' in the transformation. That is of course fine for you to do but you should not misinform us by claiming you are applying the errata. Officially you are supposed to apply the errata but DMs can do as they please so you can let us know you prefer to use the pre-errata version. Pre-errata, Antimagic Field and Truesight would not reveal the corpse as the pre-errata version of True Polymorph actually transforms the corpse into an actual dragon.

[diplomancer]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

The corpse is always there in the post-errata version of True Polymorph. Antimagic Field removes the spell effect and reveals the corpse. Truesight reveals things as they actually are. Truesight sees past the transformational magic that is actively being applied to the corpse as a spell effect to perceive the corpse upon which the spell effect is applied.

It looks like you are still clinging to a pre-errata version of True Polymorph and that is of course fine for you to do. Officially you are supposed to apply the errata but DMs can do as they please. Pre-errata Antimagic Field and Truesight would not reveal the corpse as the pre-errata version of True Polymorph actually transforms the corpse into an actual dragon.

I think you're being misled by the word "truesight". If truesight "revealed" the corpse , and allow a casting of Raise Dead on the live dragon, it would also "reveal" when a human is transformed into a dragon, and allow you to cast Hold Person on him. It does neither.

AMF is simple; it's not "revealing" anything. It *supresses* the magical effect, and thus the creature *reverts* for the time it's in the AMF.

In both cases, it's not an illusion effect, but a transmutation effect. Truesight shows that it is, in fact, a transmutation effect, but does not allow the Truesighter to simply ignore the effects of the transmutation (or it could ignore the effects of the dragon's breath; after all neither humans nor corpses breathe fire).

[AIResearch]

I think you're being misled by the word "truesight".

I am applying the definition of Truesight and the spell description of True Seeing

True Sight


A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that IS [note present tense] transformed by magic. Furthermore, the monster can see into the Ethereal Plane within the same range.

True Seeing


This spell gives the willing creature you touch the ability to see things as they actually are. For the duration, the creature has truesight, notices secret doors hidden by magic, and can see into the Ethereal Plane, all out to a range of 120 feet.

{Scrubbed}


If truesight "revealed" the corpse , and allow a casting of Raise Dead on the live dragon, it would also "reveal" when a human is transformed into a dragon, and allow you to cast Hold Person on him. It does neither.

{Scrubbed} Your argument here is "I don't believe it does either of these things therefore it does neither of these things" which is obviously a fallacious argument. You must actually prove your assertion. The definition of Truesight indicates that you can see past the spell effect and perceive the true form of something.


AMF is simple; it's not "revealing" anything. It *supresses* the magical effect, and thus the creature *reverts* for the time it's in the AMF.

Antimagic Field strips away the magic and reveals what is actually there absent the persistent ongoing spell effect that is being continuously applied to it.


In both cases, it's not an illusion effect, but a transmutation effect. Truesight shows that it is, in fact, a transmutation effect, but does not allow the Truesighter to simply ignore the effects of the transmutation (or it could ignore the effects of the dragon's breath; after all neither humans nor corpses breathe fire).

Truesight sees past the spell effect to see the corpse that is actively having a spell effect applied to it. Remember, this is post-errata. Post-errata True Polymorph does not in any way shape or form 'bake in' a transformation. If you think it does then you have not applied the errata. You do not have to apply the errata. Just please do not pretend that you are applying the errata.

In other words True Polymorph results in different things based on whether the errata is applied.

Pre-errata you get a true dragon

Post-errata you get [true form (human) -> spell effect -> fake form (dragon)]

[CapnWildefyr]

Hi AIResearch, consider Transmute Rock to Mud for a moment, as an example. If I have a 3 ft cube of granite, I can transmute it into mud, right? But what if I first convert it into sand using True Polymorph? Does Transmute Rock to Mud work on the sand, just because I can use magic to see that the sand used to be rock? A: No, the spell fails, because what used to be granite is currently sand.*

In the same way, if I transmute a corpse into a horse, a horse is a horse, of course, not a corpse, regardless of it's origin -- magic in this case. To get back to the corpse, I have to kill the horse or break the True Polymorph spell first. If I wait too long before killing the horse, when I revivify it (or whatever) I get a living horse.

*Edit: what made it into sand, and how permanent that is, are not important. whether I ground it down or used a spell, it's sand now, at the instant when I want to cast my Transmutation spell.

[RSP]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

You don’t like my answer, but I did answer them. I’ll answer them again: it has nothing to do with the fact that there’s no corpse.



The corpse is always there in the post-errata version of True Polymorph.

No, it’s not. The corpse is gone and there is now a creature. That is what the spell True Polymorph does.

What part of the errata are you thinking makes the corpse “always there”?

For reference, here’s the most recent errata from WoTC:

“This spell can’t affect a target that has 0 hit points.
In the second sentence, “the creature into an object” is now “the creature into a nonmagical object.”
In the “Creature into Object” subsection (p. 284), the following text is appended to the first sentence: “, as long as the object’s size is no larger than the creature’s size.”

[diplomancer]

I am applying the definition of Truesight and the spell description of True Seeing

True Sight



True Seeing



{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}



{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}Your argument here is "I don't believe it does either of these things therefore it does neither of these things" which is obviously a fallacious argument. You must actually prove your assertion. The definition of Truesight indicates that you can see past the spell effect and perceive the true form of something.



Antimagic Field strips away the magic and reveals what is actually there absent the persistent ongoing spell effect that is being continuously applied to it.



Truesight sees past the spell effect to see the corpse that is actively having a spell effect applied to it. Remember, this is post-errata. Post-errata True Polymorph does not in any way shape or form 'bake in' a transformation. If you think it does then you have not applied the errata. You do not have to apply the errata. Just please do not pretend that you are applying the errata.

In other words True Polymorph results in different things based on whether the errata is applied.

Pre-errata you get a true dragon

Post-errata you get [true form (human) -> spell effect -> fake form (dragon)]

And you're free to read the Transmutation spell "True Polymorph" into the Illusion spell "Fake Polymorph", because of an errata that never changed the spell's name or school, but I will keep reading True Polymorph as a Transmutation spell that actually changes a creature through magic.

But I'd love to see you arguing with your DM that you can cast Hold Person at a polymorphed Dragon that was originally a Humanoid; or even better, that you cannot cast any spell that targets only creatures if the target is an object polymorphed into a creature.

[JackPhoenix]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

And I think you need to realize seeing something doesn't mean that something is a valid target. True Seeing allows you to see creatures on Ethereal Plane, but you still can't hit them with a Fireball. Scrying may allow you to see a creature on the other end of a planet as if you were 10' away, but that doesn't mean it's in a range of Charm Person. Ring of X-Ray Vision may allow you to see through Wall of Stone, but that doesn't mean the wall stops providing full cover and blocking any Firebolts you may want to cast. And True Seeing may allow you to see the original form of a disintegrated creature (Disintegrate is transmutation spell, so the victim is technically transformed by magic), but that doesn't mean the creature stops being a pile of fine gray dust.


Truesight sees past the spell effect to see the corpse that is actively having a spell effect applied to it. Remember, this is post-errata. Post-errata True Polymorph does not in any way shape or form 'bake in' a transformation. If you think it does then you have not applied the errata. You do not have to apply the errata. Just please do not pretend that you are applying the errata.

In other words True Polymorph results in different things based on whether the errata is applied.

Pre-errata you get a true dragon

Post-errata you get [true form (human) -> spell effect -> fake form (dragon)]

Pre- and post-errata TP works exactly the same in this regard. The first errata merely clarifies that True Sight can be dispelked even after it was made permanent, but that's redundant: Permanent spells can be dispelled by default, unless the spell itself says otherwise (like Wall of Stone, which clarifies it can't be dispelled once made permanent (but would still vanish in AMF), or Wall of Force, which can't be dispelled, period). Only spells with instantaneous duration can't. A zombie created by Animate Dead (Instantaneous duration) can't be dispelled, but one created by True Polymorph (duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour, or permanent) can.

[AIResearch]

Hi AIResearch, consider Transmute Rock to Mud for a moment, as an example. If I have a 3 ft cube of granite, I can transmute it into mud, right? But what if I first convert it into sand using True Polymorph? Does Transmute Rock to Mud work on the sand, just because I can use magic to see that the sand used to be rock? A: No, the spell fails, because what used to be granite is currently sand.*

In the same way, if I transmute a corpse into a horse, a horse is a horse, of course, not a corpse, regardless of it's origin -- magic in this case. To get back to the corpse, I have to kill the horse or break the True Polymorph spell first. If I wait too long before killing the horse, when I revivify it (or whatever) I get a living horse.

*Edit: what made it into sand, and how permanent that is, are not important. whether I ground it down or used a spell, it's sand now, at the instant when I want to cast my Transmutation spell.

In the absence of Truesight you cannot.

But Truesight allows you to 'see things as they actually are' [note present tense]. You are able to perceive that the sand is actually a rock that is actively being transformed by an ongoing spell effect into sand that is never really baked in and that means you can target it as a rock. The spell effect of True Polymorph magically changes the way the world interacts with the True Polymorphed creature except those creatures that have Truesight who can perceive what it actually is in addition to what it is as a result if the ongoing spell effect that is never baked in. Truesight does this by definition.


You don’t like my answer, but I did answer them. I’ll answer them again: it has nothing to do with the fact that there’s no corpse.

You have refused to answer what you see when a human True Polymorphed into a dragon is subject to an Antimagic Field.

You have also refused to answer what Truesight perceives when you look at a human True Polymorphed into a dragon.

Truesight perceives things as they actually are. By definition it can perceive through magic.


And you're free to read the Transmutation spell "True Polymorph" into the Illusion spell "Fake Polymorph", because of an errata that never changed the spell's name or school, but I will keep reading True Polymorph as a Transmutation spell that actually changes a creature through magic.

But I'd love to see you arguing with your DM that you can cast Hold Person at a polymorphed Dragon that was originally a Humanoid; or even better, that you cannot cast any spell that targets only creatures if the target is an object polymorphed into a creature.

In your attempt at Strawmanning my argument you are once again refusing to accept what Truesight enables by definition. Truesight enables you to see things as they actually are. Transmutation magic does change how the world interacts with the transmuted object, but Truesight enables the creature with Truesight to see through the transmutation magic and perceive things as they actually are [note present tense]. It does this by definition. Truesight enables an ability that can affect targeting. Pre-errata you could not cast Hold Person at a humanoid True Polymorphed into a dragon. But post-errata you can provided you are a creature with Truesight. The DM may argue against that but the definition of Truesight enables that. The DM is free to go against the RAW. So what a DM may or may not do is completely irrelevant to a discussion about what the rules say.


And I think you need to realize seeing something doesn't mean that something is a valid target. True Seeing allows you to see creatures on Ethereal Plane, but you still can't hit them with a Fireball. Scrying may allow you to see a creature on the other end of a planet as if you were 10' away, but that doesn't mean it's in a range of Charm Person. Ring of X-Ray Vision may allow you to see through Wall of Stone, but that doesn't mean the wall stops providing full cover and blocking any Firebolts you may want to cast. And True Seeing may allow you to see the original form of a disintegrated creature (Disintegrate is transmutation spell, so the victim is technically transformed by magic), but that doesn't mean the creature stops being a pile of fine gray dust.

More Strawmanning of my argument. Truesight enables you to perceive things as they actually are and that does possibly enable additional targeting capabilities but I have no where asserted that Truesight allows you to ignore other considerations (such as distance) that factor into targeting. Can you restate your objection here minus the strawmanning?




Pre- and post-errata TP works exactly the same in this regard. The first errata merely clarifies that True Sight can be dispelked even after it was made permanent, but that's redundant: Permanent spells can be dispelled by default, unless the spell itself says otherwise (like Wall of Stone, which clarifies it can't be dispelled once made permanent (but would still vanish in AMF), or Wall of Force, which can't be dispelled, period). Only spells with instantaneous duration can't. A zombie created by Animate Dead (Instantaneous duration) can't be dispelled, but one created by True Polymorph (duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour, or permanent) can.

Wall of Stone would not vanish in an Antimagic Field and here you are betraying a fundamental misconception of how the rules work.

Pre-errata, True Polymorph could become permanent. Post-errata True Polymorph cannot.

[RSP]

In the absence of Truesight you cannot.

But Truesight allows you to 'see things as they actually are' [note present tense].

First off, you’re quoting True Seeing, not Truesight: I’d suggest you get your sources right.

Secondly, True Seeing, and Truesight work the same: True Seeing gives the target Truesight. This is described in the Truesight description, previously provided but reposting here the relevant part:

“…perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic…”

And, again, being able to perceive that the horse is a corpse under the effect of True Polymorph does not mean the corpse is there.



You have refused to answer what you see when a human True Polymorphed into a dragon is subject to an Antimagic Field.

You have also refused to answer what Truesight perceives when you look at a human True Polymorphed into a dragon.

Truesight perceives things as they actually are. By definition it can perceive through magic.

Despite what you may think of the other posters on these boards, I’m under no obligation to answer questions you have.

That said, I’ve answered your questions: you just dislike the answer that they have nothing to do with the discussion.

Your insistence on getting a different answer is rather rude.

As to Truesight, it lets you perceive the original form of creatures transformed by magic (you’re still mixing up True Seeing and Truesight). However, you seem to believe that means the original form is physically present, which isn’t the case if the creature is under the effect of TP (see the spell for its effect if needed).

TP doesn’t creature illusions, which you seem to want to believe.

[AIResearch]

First off, you’re quoting True Seeing, not Truesight: I’d suggest you get your sources right.

Secondly, True Seeing, and Truesight work the same: True Seeing gives the target Truesight. This is described in the Truesight description, previously provided but reposting here the relevant part:

“…perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic…”

And, again, being able to perceive that the horse is a corpse under the effect of True Polymorph does not mean the corpse is there.



Despite what you may think of the other posters on these boards, I’m under no obligation to answer questions you have.

That said, I’ve answered your questions: you just dislike the answer that they have nothing to do with the discussion.

Your insistence on getting a different answer is rather rude.

As to Truesight, it lets you perceive the original form of creatures transformed by magic (you’re still mixing up True Seeing and Truesight). However, you seem to believe that means the original form is physically present, which isn’t the case if the creature is under the effect of TP (see the spell for its effect if needed).

TP doesn’t creature illusions, which you seem to want to believe.

Once again you are avoiding answering fair questions that were posed. You are discouraging looking closely at things which seems to indicate that your argument would collapse under scrutiny.

I suggest you read the spell description of True Seeing carefully as your argument is based on a misread of that spell description. Truesight enables you to see things as they actually are. You should also re-read the ability description of Truesight and take careful note of tense.

Post-errata, True Polymorph does not actually commit any transformation to the creature that is subjected to its spell effect. Pre-errata, there was an actual transformation equivalent to an instantaneous transmutation. Post-errata, the transformation is accomplished entirely via an ongoing spell effect that is never baked in to the affected creature and is comparable to Alter Self with the addition of stat/ability replication. Antimagic Field proves this. Truesight proves this.

[diplomancer]

Once again you are avoiding answering fair questions that were posed. You are discouraging looking closely at things which seems to indicate that your argument would collapse under scrutiny.

I suggest you read the spell description of True Seeing carefully as your argument is based on a misread of that spell description. Truesight enables you to see things as they actually are. You should also re-read the ability description of Truesight and take careful note of tense.

Post-errata, True Polymorph does not actually commit any transformation to the creature that is subjected to its spell effect. Pre-errata, there was an actual transformation equivalent to an instantaneous transmutation. Post-errata, the transformation is accomplished entirely via an ongoing spell effect that is never baked in to the affected creature and is comparable to Alter Self with the addition of stat/ability replication. Antimagic Field proves this. Truesight proves this.

Here's what you don't get. Perceiving X is not the same thing as being able to affect X. What the Truesight allows you to do is to see thing as they really are, as you say, but, in thos case, what you see is that this is "Y, transformed into Z". It is definitely NOT "Y, but looks like Z" (that would be an Illusion spell).

A spell that affects Y but not Z will not affect "Y transformed into Z", because, while the magic is in effect, it is not Y (that's what "transformed" means). If it was Y, by the way, Truesight would be unnecessary. Just guessing, through whatever means, even being told, even just trying blindly, that this is "Y, transformed into Z" without any information, would work. But it doesn't.

Want to affect Y? You have to get rid of the magic that made Y into Z first. Truesight does give you that piece of information, which can come in handy, and which you might not have without it. But that's all it does.

[CapnWildefyr]

I suggest you read the spell description of True Seeing carefully as your argument is based on a misread of that spell description. Truesight enables you to see things as they actually are. You should also re-read the ability description of Truesight and take careful note of tense.

Post-errata, True Polymorph does not actually commit any transformation to the creature that is subjected to its spell effect. Pre-errata, there was an actual transformation equivalent to an instantaneous transmutation. Post-errata, the transformation is accomplished entirely via an ongoing spell effect that is never baked in to the affected creature and is comparable to Alter Self with the addition of stat/ability replication. Antimagic Field proves this. Truesight proves this.

From DnD beyond, for true polymorph: "Choose one creature or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into a nonmagical object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature)." Just because it's an ongoing spell effect does not mean that it's not a transformation. The spell is literally a transformation spell, and the description says so, too.

Just because you can "perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic" doesn't mean that the creature or object's original form still exists. Truesight does not negate anything. Just because a magical effect is informing me that a horse used to be a corpse, that doesn't change the fact that right now, it's a horse.

In a nonmagical analogy, I know that glass is made from sand, but I can't use a glass as a spell component instead of sand.

If I see a wizard transmute a rock into a cat, I know the cat used to be a rock because I saw the wizard cast the spell, but right now, it's a cat. Transmute rock to mud won't work on it.

[AIResearch]

Just because you can "perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic" doesn't mean that the creature or object's original form still exists. Truesight does not negate anything. Just because a magical effect is informing me that a horse used to be a corpse, that doesn't change the fact that right now, it's a horse.

Are you fully aware that the ability description reads "perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that IS transformed by magic" and not "perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that WAS transformed by magic"?

Are you also fully aware that the spell description for True Seeing (which grants True Sight) reads "perceive things as they actually ARE" and not "perceive things as they actually WERE"?

[RSP]

Are you fully aware that the ability description reads "perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that IS transformed by magic" and not "perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that WAS transformed by magic"?

Are you also fully aware that the spell description for True Seeing (which grants True Sight) reads "perceive things as they actually ARE" and not "perceive things as they actually WERE"?

We’re all fully aware of what the rules say.

When something “is transformed by magic”, it is, in fact, actually transformed by magic. The fact that someone can perceive what it would be were it not under the transforming effect of magic, doesn’t change that it is under the transforming effect of magic.

[AIResearch]

We’re all fully aware of what the rules say.

When something “is transformed by magic”, it is, in fact, actually transformed by magic. The fact that someone can perceive what it would be were it not under the transforming effect of magic, doesn’t change that it is under the transforming effect of magic.

So then you now agree that the human that IS actively under the transforming effect of magic EXISTS, correct? Have you conceded that important point?

[Rukelnikov]

So then you now agree that the human that IS actively under the transforming effect of magic EXISTS, correct? Have you conceded that important point?

define exists

[AIResearch]

define exists A subject that "is" as in "is transformed by magic". Otherwise you use the past tense.

[RSP]

So then you now agree that the human that IS actively under the transforming effect of magic EXISTS, correct? Have you conceded that important point?

What is the transforming effect?

If it’s True Polymorph, and TP transforms them into a cat, then no, the human no longer exists: the cat does.

You can’t swing your sword two feet above the cat’s head and hit the human, because the human doesn’t exist.

If it’s, however, Alter Self, then yes, the human still exists because Alter Self doesn’t change creature types.

[AIResearch]

What is the transforming effect?

If it’s True Polymorph, and TP transforms them into a cat, then no, the human no longer exists: the cat does.

You can’t swing your sword two feet above the cat’s head and hit the human, because the human doesn’t exist.

Are we talking about a cat or about a human that is transformed by magical effect into a cat?

[RSP]

Are we talking about a cat or about a human that is transformed by magical effect into a cat?

A human that has been turned into a cat via TP, is, in fact, a cat.

Here’s the relevant RAW on True Polymorph:

“Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating). The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form.”

Game stats include its creature type. So a human that is changed into a cat, is actually now a cat, with the Beast creature type. It no longer has the Humanoid creature type, or the subtype of Human.

The creature is a cat while under the effects of the spell.

[Rukelnikov]

A subject that "is" as in "is transformed by magic". Otherwise you use the past tense.

the subject exists, thats for sure, the Human though? The human physiology doesn't exist, the mind may or may not be human (TP into an int 1 creature there's no human mind there), what exists is a human that has been turned into a dragon, which is distinct from a human.

[RSP]

A fun bit I thought of for how AIR believes Truesight/True Polymorph works:

A 20th level human is turned into an Ancient Brass Dragon (gargantuan size - takes up at least 20’x20’) using True Polymorph.

Two Wizards stand on opposite sides of the dragon, each 115’ away from the furthest edge of the dragon. They each cast True Seeing, giving them 120’ Truesight.

Now, the distance means each Wizard sees only 5’ of the dragon with Truesight, however, RAW (and the rules of this thought experiment), they each “perceive the original form”.

Per the rules of this thought experiment, this is the actual human body they each perceive, and it’s not only there, it’s targetable as a human.

However, though they each see the original human form, they each see it at least 10’ apart from where the other sees it.

So you now actually have created two new human bodies using this method.

What’s even better: each Wizard can now target the human form they see with spells. What happens if each Wizard cast Bigby’s Hand and each has the hand move to the human form (targetable according to the rules of this thought experiment), use the Grasping Hand option to grapple each perceived form and then drag it next to themselves (takes two turns)?

Now the two human forms are over 200’ apart, and neither in the space of the dragon any non-Truesight observer sees (which is too big to be effected by Grasping Hand, but that doesn’t matter because of the houserule rules we’re using for this thought experiment).

Pretty cool way to create two level 20 humanoids from one (while still leaving an Ancient Brass Dragon in the area).

[AIResearch]

{Scrubbed}

Let us say I have two things that look like a cat in a room.

One cat is a true cat.

The other is a true human that is transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a cat.


First off, what are the differences, if any, between the true cat and the true human that is transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a cat that is not a true cat?

[diplomancer]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Let us say I have two things that look like a cat in a room.

One cat is a true cat.

The other is a true human that is transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a cat.


First off, what are the differences, if any, between the true cat and the true human that is transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a cat that is not a true cat?

Here are the differences:
1- a dispel magic or antimagic field will do nothing to the true cat, but it will either suppress or dispel the polymorph effect over cat-turned-into-human, making him human again.
2- Truesight will allow the creature with truesight to see the difference between them, but, in and of itself, does not grant any ability to target the human, so a spell like Hold Person will not work. Because, while the magic's in effect, it's a cat. It's not a fake cat. It's not an illusion of a cat. It IS (notice the verb tense there) a cat, that used to be a human, and this is what Truesight will show.

Any other differences come from you reading abilities into the Trueseeing spell that are simply not there, while ignoring the text of True Polymorph (that clearly states that the creature's game statistics-which explicitly include creature type- are replaced).

[JackPhoenix]

More Strawmanning of my argument. Truesight enables you to perceive things as they actually are and that does possibly enable additional targeting capabilities but I have no where asserted that Truesight allows you to ignore other considerations (such as distance) that factor into targeting. Can you restate your objection here minus the strawmanning?

Before you start accusing someone of using logical fallacies, first learn what those fallacies are. There's no strawmanning present in my post. But sure: You're applying double standard: By your argument, True Sight arbitrarily allows you to ignore some targetting requirements, while doing nothing about others.


Wall of Stone would not vanish in an Antimagic Field and here you are betraying a fundamental misconception of how the rules work.

It would. "A creature or object summoned or created by magic temporarily winks out of existence in the sphere." A wall created by Wall of Stone spell is, indeed, an object summoned or created by magic. Perhaps you should work on your own knowledge of the rules first, but that much is obvious from the start.


Pre-errata, True Polymorph could become permanent. Post-errata True Polymorph cannot.

True Polymorph has exactly the same permanency from 1st printing. 'Permanent' and 'until dispelled' spells have the same duration, just using different words.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Then perhaps you should follow to your own suggestion.


Let's get back to the key issues at hand that you keep evading.

Let us say I have two things that look like a cat in a room.

One cat is a true cat.

The other is a true human that is transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a cat.

First off, what are the differences, if any, between the true cat and the true human that is transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a cat that is not a true cat?

Besides what Diplomancer already mentioned, one has an aura detectable by Detect Magic, the personality (within the limit of cat's mental ability) and alignment of the human. The other is unaligned (which is not an option for a human).

[RSP]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Not sure how you think quoting the RAW for True Polymorph and showing why there is only the new creature present is denegrating into strawmanning.

Further, I’d suggest you formulate arguments off of rules rather than asking other posters questions, which, in case it hasn’t been clear, I don’t care to waste my time on as the RAW is very clear: a thing or creature TP’d into a cat is, indeed, a cat.

You have not shown anything that questions that.

[AIResearch]

Here are the differences:
1- a dispel magic or antimagic field will do nothing to the true cat, but it will either suppress or dispel the polymorph effect over cat-turned-into-human, making him human again.
2- Truesight will allow the creature with truesight to see the difference between them, but, in and of itself, does not grant any ability to target the human, so a spell like Hold Person will not work. Because, while the magic's in effect, it's a cat. It's not a fake cat. It's not an illusion of a cat. It IS (notice the verb tense there) a cat, that used to be a human, and this is what Truesight will show.

Any other differences come from you reading abilities into the Trueseeing spell that are simply not there, while ignoring the text of True Polymorph (that clearly states that the creature's game statistics-which explicitly include creature type- are replaced).

Important correction: it is a human that is transformed by magical effect into something that is mostly a cat and that will pass as a cat for creatures that do not have truesight.

Is age on the stat block? No. What are the implications of that?


Before you start accusing someone of using logical fallacies, first learn what those fallacies are. There's no strawmanning present in my post. But sure: You're applying double standard: By your argument, True Sight arbitrarily allows you to ignore some targetting requirements, while doing nothing about others.

By definition, truesight enables the creature with that ability to know that a human True Polymorphed into a cat is actually a human rather than a cat. There is nothing arbitrary about my argument as it proceeds straight from definitions and I did not make up those definitions. The straightforward application of logic from that definition entails that targetting is affected.


It would. "A creature or object summoned or created by magic temporarily winks out of existence in the sphere." A wall created by Wall of Stone spell is, indeed, an object summoned or created by magic. Perhaps you should work on your own knowledge of the rules first, but that much is obvious from the start.


The Sage Advice Compendium disagrees with you.

[diplomancer]

Important correction: it is a human that is transformed by magical effect into something that is mostly a cat and that will pass as a cat for creatures that do not have truesight.

Is age on the stat block? No. What are the implications of that?



By definition, truesight enables the creature with that ability to know that a human True Polymorphed into a cat is actually a human rather than a cat. There is nothing arbitrary about my argument as it proceeds straight from definitions as I did not make up those definitions. The straightforward application of logic from that definition entails that targetting is affected.



The Sage Advice Compendium disagrees with you.

Your position is so odd, because, basically, you apply real-world logic, where magic does not exist, to a world where magic exists. You think "magic, therefore not-true". But when Truesight shows that a human has been transformed into a cat, that in no way invalidates the magical transformation. It just shows it has happened.

And age has no game mechanics involved with it. So your question is irrelevant.

[JackPhoenix]

By definition, truesight enables the creature with that ability to know that a human True Polymorphed into a cat is actually a human rather than a cat. There is nothing arbitrary about my argument as it proceeds straight from definitions and I did not make up those definitions. The straightforward application of logic from that definition entails that targetting is affected.

Knowing something and being able to act on that knowledge are different things. Yes, truesight lets you know a human TP'd into a cat is actually a human. It does not change the fact that until the TP ends, it is for all intents and purposes a cat. Claiming anything else is convulted, completely baseless, and has nothing to do with logic.


The Sage Advice Compendium disagrees with you.

[citation needed]

[AIResearch]

Your position is so odd, because, basically, you apply real-world logic, where magic does not exist, to a world where magic exists. You think "magic, therefore not-true". But when Truesight shows that a human has been transformed into a cat, that in no way invalidates the magical transformation. It just shows it has happened.

And age has no game mechanics involved with it. So your question is irrelevant.

I am not applying real world logic but game logic. By game definition, Truesight enables creatures with that ability to know that a human that is transformed into a cat is actually a human and that does affect the game's targetting rules.

And actually age is very relevant. A mouse only lives to 3 years. If you True polymorph an elf into a young adult mouse the magical effect for the True Polymorph is literally tied to your specification of young adult mouse. One hundred years can go by and that same elf will still be affected by the same magical effect that transforms it into a young adult mouse. In fact, a Dorian Gray effect is in place where the elf achieves a kind of immortality until the polymorph is dispelled or the elf stumbles into a Dead Magic Zone.

[RSP]

Important correction: it is a human that is transformed by magical effect into something that is mostly a cat and that will pass as a cat for creatures that do not have truesight.

No, it is, in fact, a cat.



By definition, truesight enables the creature with that ability to know that a human True Polymorphed into a cat is actually a human rather than a cat. There is nothing arbitrary about my argument as it proceeds straight from definitions and I did not make up those definitions. The straightforward application of logic from that definition entails that targetting is affected.

No to both your definition and your “straightforward application of logic”.

Truesight shows an “original form”. It does not saying anything about the current form not being real.

As to your “straightforward application of logic”, see my post about applying your “logic” and rules view with my thought experiment a few posts back.

[AIResearch]

No, it is, in fact, a cat.

Nope. Truesight reveals that it is actually a human that is being transformed into a cat by magical effect. It is in fact a human that is being transformed into a cat by magical effect.

[RSP]

I am not applying real world logic but game logic. By game definition, Truesight enables creatures with that ability to know that a human that is transformed into a cat is actually a human and that does affect the game's targetting rules.


No, this is just you making stuff up. Nothing in Truesight allows for the changing of targeting rules.

Again, TP actually transforms the target: it’s not an illusion or a pretend transformation, as you’d like to believe.

Whether others know that TP is in affect, or what the “true form” is of the TP’d creature, it’s still 100% the creature TP makes it.


Nope. Truesight reveals that it is actually a human that is being transformed into a cat by magical effect. It is in fact a human that is being transformed into a cat by magical effect.

See I can actually support my position with RAW:

“The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form.”

It’s now a cat, complete with cat stats; and no longer a human, nor does it have any human stats, including the humanoid creature type.

The human no longer exists; the cat does.

There is no humanoid with which to target, say, Hold Person.

[AIResearch]

No, this is just you making stuff up. Nothing in Truesight allows for the changing of targeting rules.

Again, TP actually transforms the target: it’s not an illusion or a pretend transformation, as you’d like to believe.

Whether others know that TP is in affect, or what the “true form” is of the TP’d creature, it’s still 100% the creature TP makes it.

Truesight enables creatures with that ability to perceive past the magic and know that the cat is actually a human that is transformed by magical effect. This is BY DEFINITION.


See I can actually support my position with RAW:

“The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form.”

It’s now a cat, complete with cat stats; and no longer a human, nor does it have any human stats, including the humanoid creature type.

The human no longer exists; the cat does.

There is no humanoid with which to target, say, Hold Person.

Pre-errata, this would be correct.

Post-errata, this is not correct.

[RSP]

Truesight enables creatures with that ability to perceive past the magic and know that the cat is actually a human that is transformed by magical effect. This is BY DEFINITION.

And yet knowing that it used to be human has zero effect on being able to target it as a human.

[AIResearch]

And yet knowing that it used to be human has zero effect on being able to target it as a human.

Once again you are using pre-errata thinking.

[RSP]

Also note: Truesight will revel the “original form” of a creature under the effects of Alter Self, that has used the spell to grow claws.

Even though Truesight let’s you see the original form that doesn’t have claws, you’re still susceptible to the damage caused by those claws.


Once again you are using pre-errata thinking.

I’ve quoted the errata: it changes nothing in these terms. You’ve also failed to show any proof supporting any of your claims regarding the errata.

Statements like these (essentially “check the errata”) aren’t helpful.

[JackPhoenix]

Pre-errata, this would be correct.

Post-errata, this is not correct.

Once again, [citation needed] on which part of the errata *you think* (because no such part actually exist) makes any difference there.

[AIResearch]

Pre-errata, a True Polymorph that you concentrated on for an hour became permanent. You could no longer Dispel it and the True Polymorph would persist in an Antimagic Field as it was no longer dependent on a magical effect that was continuously transforming the true creature into the new creature. Truesight would only show the new creature. Also, the new creature would age.

Post-errata, a True polymorph is always tied to a magical effect that actively transforms the true creature into the new creature. You aren't dealing with a cat but a (true human -> spell effect -> mostly cat).

[Rukelnikov]

Pre-errata, a True Polymorph that you concentrated on for an hour became permanent. You could no longer Dispel it and the True Polymorph would persist in an Antimagic Field as it was no longer dependent on a magical effect that was transforming the true creature into the new creature. Truesight would only show the new creature.

That's not what "Duration: Permanent" means, you are thinking "Duration: Instantaneous", a Permanent effect can perfectly be dispelled.

[JackPhoenix]

Pre-errata, a True Polymorph that you concentrated on for an hour became permanent. You could no longer Dispel it and the True Polymorph would persist in an Antimagic Field as it was no longer dependent on a magical effect that was transforming the true creature into the new creature. Truesight would only show the new creature.

False. Permanent effect of a spell is still effect of a spell, and thus subject to effect that end or suppress the spell. It's still human transformed into cat, only the spell now has indefinite duration (well, practically about 20 year tops before the cat dies of old age), truesight will show as much, and successfull Dispel Magic will end the transformation.

[AIResearch]

That's not what "Duration: Permanent" means, you are thinking "Duration: Instantaneous", a Permanent effect can perfectly be dispelled.

Thanks for the correction on the Pre-errata. Wall of Stone is similarly templated and would persist in an Antimagic Field but that is because that spell description specifies that it cannot be dispelled.

So even with the pre-errata version of True Polymorph in effect, Truesight would reveal to those creatures with that ability that the cat is actually a human. Further, the True Polymorph can be dispelled, and the human would be revealed in an Antimagic Field.

Thanks. My argument works even with the pre-errata version.


False. Permanent effect of a spell is still effect of a spell, and thus subject to effect that end or suppress the spell. It's still human transformed into cat, only the spell now has indefinite duration (well, practically about 20 year tops before the cat dies of old age), truesight will show as much, and successfull Dispel Magic will end the transformation.

Cool. So even pre-errata we are dealing with a human that is transformed into a cat and not simply a cat that used to be human.

Age is not on the stat block.

[Rukelnikov]

Thanks for the correction on the Pre-errata. Wall of Stone is similarly templated and would persist in an Antimagic Field but that is because that spell description specifies that it cannot be dispelled.

So even with the pre-errata version of True Polymorph in effect, Truesight would reveal to those creatures with that ability that the cat is actually a human. Further, the True Polymorph can be dispelled, and the human would be revealed in an Antimagic Field.

Thanks. My argument works even with the pre-errata version.

No, your argument fails in both cases, but you are getting closer to understanding why.

[AIResearch]

No, your argument fails in both cases, but you are getting closer to understanding why.

Nope. My argument works in both cases. Truesights definition remains the same and will reveal the human that is being transformed into a mostly cat that doesn't age.

[Rukelnikov]

False. Permanent effect of a spell is still effect of a spell, and thus subject to effect that end or suppress the spell. It's still human transformed into cat, only the spell now has indefinite duration (well, practically about 20 year tops before the cat dies of old age), truesight will show as much, and successfull Dispel Magic will end the transformation.

This is an interesting question, which doesn't have a RAW answer, but its interesting to consider.

Let's say Johnny was TPed into a cat at 16 yo, spent 14 years in cat form, then the spell was broken for reasons.

What does Johnny look like now? Does he look like a 16 yo, or like a 30 yo?

I'd have him still be a 16 yo, but I could see others ruling differently

[AIResearch]

This is an interesting question, which doesn't have a RAW answer, but its interesting to consider.

Let's say Johnny was TPed into a cat at 16 yo, spent 14 years in cat form, then the spell was broken for reasons.

What does Johnny look like now? Does he look like a 16 yo, or like a 30 yo?

I'd have him still be a 16 yo, but I could see others ruling differently

The spell effect is set at casting. If you True Polymorph a human into a young adult cat that spell effect will still be the same and after 40 years have passed the human will still be True Polymorphed into a young adult cat. True Polymorph only modifies game statistics. Age is not a game statistic.

[Rukelnikov]

The spell effect is set at casting. If you True Polymorph a human into a young adult cat that spell effect will still be the same and after 40 years have passed the human will still be True Polymorphed into a young adult cat. True Polymorph only modifies game statistics. Age is not a game statistic.

You are now a young adult cat, cat's age, thus you age.

[AIResearch]

You are now a young adult cat, cat's age, thus you age.

The true human ages, but the cat doesn't age as it is entirely a spell effect. The spell effect of True Polymorph is "transform this human into a young adult cat". The spell effect doesn't change and will still be "transform this human into a young adult cat" after however many years.

[Rukelnikov]

The true human ages, but the cat doesn't age as it is entirely a spell effect. The spell effect of True Polymorph is "transform this human into a young adult cat". The spell effect doesn't change and will still be "transform this human into a young adult cat" after however many years.

That's not what the spell says:

"Choose one creature or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into a nonmagical object, or the object into a creature [...] "

Once you turned someone into a cat, they are now a cat, nowhere does the spell say the cat is unaging.

Your reading of an immutable form would mean damage cannot be dealt to the character, since as long as the damage doesn't bring the creature to 0 hp, the spell would then again bring them to full hp, since that's what the effect did in the first place.

[AIResearch]

That's not what the spell says:

"Choose one creature or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into a nonmagical object, or the object into a creature [...] "

Once you turned someone into a cat, they are now a cat, nowhere does the spell say the cat is unaging.

Your reading of an immutable form would mean damage cannot be dealt to the character, since as long as the damage doesn't bring the creature to 0 hp, the spell would then again bring them to full hp, since that's what the effect did in the first place.

You are strawmanning my argument.


The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the new form. It retains its Alignment and Personality.

Age is not a game statistic so age is under the control of the true human. The cat is entirely a magical transformation. The cat is a magical effect that you specify at spell casting and that magical effect doesn't change. After however many years the human would still be actively transformed into a young adult cat.

[Rukelnikov]

You are strawmanning my argument.



Age is not a game statistic so age is under the control of the true human. The cat is entirely a magical transformation. The cat is a magical effect that you specify at spell casting and that magical effect doesn't change. After however many years the human would still be actively transformed into a young adult cat.

The spell starts by saying "You transform a creature into another creature", so it is indeed a cat now, and cats age.

You are only reading part of the spell description, that which relates to game statistics, if characters were only game statistics no character would age, since as you say "its not a game statistic".

[AIResearch]

The spell starts by saying "You transform a creature into another creature", so it is indeed a cat now, and cats age.

You are only reading part of the spell description, that which relates to game statistics, if characters were only game statistics no character would age, since as you say "its not a game statistic".

Age is associated with PCs upon creation in the PHB.


Age The age entry notes the age when a member of the race is considered an adult, as well as the race’s expected lifespan. This information can help you decide how old your character is at the start of the game. You can choose any age for your character, which could provide an explanation for some of your ability scores. For example, if you play a young or very old character, your age could explain a particularly low Strength or Constitution score, while advanced age could account for a high Intelligence or Wisdom.

Monsters and NPCs in the monster manual do not have an age game statistic [See pages 6-11 in MM]. Spells only do what they say they do so you only have permission to replace game statistics. Spells only do what they say they do and spell effects are set to what you specify at casting unless a spell specifically allows you to change that specification.

The problem you have is that True Polymorph is entirely a spell effect and not a true transformation. A true transformation would persist in an Antimagic Field.

In order to accomplish what you think you are doing you would have to cast a risky Wish or use Divine Intervention. Using a risky Wish or Divine Intervention you could indeed become a true cat and it would require another risky Wish or Divine Intervention to change back. Otherwise you are tied to a spell effect defined at casting and you don't have permission to change that spell effect.

[RSP]

…spells only do what they say they do so…True Polymorph is entirely…a true transformation.


Fixed that.

TP does indeed make real transformations.

[AIResearch]

Fixed that.

TP does indeed make real transformations.

Nope. You need to cast a risky Wish or use Divine Intervention to indeed do that.

In the case of True Polymorph, Truesight reveals what is going on under the hood and that you actually have a human that is being transformed by magical effect into something that is mostly a cat.

[RSP]

Nope. You need to cast a risky Wish or use Divine Intervention to indeed do that.

In the case of True Polymorph, Truesight reveals what is going on under the hood and that you actually have a human that is being transformed by magical effect into something that is mostly a cat.

Truesight shows the original form, in this case, a human; but in no way undoes the magic that is at work. It’s still a cat, even when being looked at with Truesight.

[AIResearch]

Truesight shows the original form, in this case, a human; but in no way undoes the magic that is at work. It’s still a cat, even when being looked at with Truesight.

Truesight reveals that it is not a true cat but actually a human that is being transformed by transmutation magic into a cat that doesn't age and is mostly a cat.

Dispel Magic undoes the magic to reveal that you weren't dealing with a true cat but a human that was being transformed into a cat that didn't age and that was mostly a cat.

Antimagic Field reveals that the cat was entirely a product of a magical effect cast upon a human and not a true cat. True cats are nonmagical.

In order for a human to actually become an actual cat you need to use a risky Wish or Divine Intervention.

[Saint-Just]

@AIResearch

Imagine for a second that True Sight is not in play, would you allow a wizard who is reliably informed about the true nature of TPed creature (let's say because they witnessed the original transformation) to target it with spells that only work on its original form?

[RSP]

Truesight …

Truesight doesn’t undo the effects of TP, saying otherwise is wrong.

Casting True Seeing on yourself doesn’t prevent being changed into something else via TP.

Having Truesight doesn’t protect you from the Natural Weapon attack of someone under the effect of Alter Self.

Truesight does not allow you to create two identical humans, and a dragon, from a human that was TP’d into a dragon.

Truesight does not undo any magical effect: it merely allows the viewer to see the original form (note: not “true” form). It doesn’t recreate that form into the world. It doesn’t dispel TP.

[diplomancer]

Truesight reveals that it is not a true cat but actually a human that is being transformed by transmutation magic into a cat that doesn't age
Citation needed. Cats age. Spells do what they say they do. The spell doesn't say that the new creature does not age, therefore it does. It also needs food to survive (spells say what they say they do, and they don't say that the transformed creature does not need to eat, being kept in an unchanging state entirely by magic), which means it has all the natural processes involved in digestion, which means that its matter is in constant flux, even if its form is kept fixed by magic


and is mostly a cat.
Citation needed. It's a cat. That it used to be a human in no way, shape, or form, means it's not a cat.


True cats are non magical

I'm not sure how to break this to you. But in D&D, magic is real, and effects real changes in the world. Including transforming humans into cats. Which makes them cats. Magically transformed cats, and thus retaining, as much as possible, their former personality and alignment, as well as being vulnerable to being dispelled/suppressed/divined, but, still, cats.

[AIResearch]

@AIResearch

Imagine for a second that True Sight is not in play, would you allow a wizard who is reliably informed about the true nature of TPed creature (let's say because they witnessed the original transformation) to target it with spells that only work on its original form?

Nope. Creatures that have the Truesight ability by definition can perceive past the magic and know that it is actually a human that is transformed by magical effect into a cat and not an actual cat. Truesight reveals things as they actually are. The ability affects targeting.


Truesight doesn’t undo the effects of TP, saying otherwise is wrong.

Casting True Seeing on yourself does prevent being changed into something else via TP.

Having Truesight doesn’t protect you from the Natural Weapon attack of someone under the effect of Alter Self.

Truesight does not allow you to create two identical humans, and a dragon, from a human that was TP’d into a dragon.

Truesight does not undo any magical effect: it merely allows the viewer to see the original form (note: not “true” form). It doesn’t recreate that form into the world. It doesn’t dispel TP.

None of these points are relevant or contested by me. Abilities do what they say they do. Truesight allows the creature with that ability to by definition perceive things as they actually are and to perceive past the magic and that the cat is actually a human under a magical effect. This affects targeting.


Citation needed. Cats age. Spells do what they say they do. The spell doesn't say that the new creature does not age, therefore it does. It also needs food to survive (spells say what they say they do, and they don't say that the transformed creature does not need to eat, being kept in an unchanging state entirely by magic), which means it has all the natural processes involved in digestion, which means that its matter is in constant flux, even if its form is kept fixed by magic


Citation needed. It's a cat. That it used to be a human in no way, shape, or form, means it's not a cat.



I'm not sure how to break this to you. But in D&D, magic is real, and effects real changes in the world. Including transforming humans into cats. Which makes them cats. Magically transformed cats, and thus retaining, as much as possible, their former personality and alignment, as well as being vulnerable to being dispelled/suppressed/divined, but, still, cats.

You aren't examining what is going on here. Spells do what they say they do and they produce an ongoing spell effect. What is the exact spell effect that is produced here?

[georgie_leech]

Maybe the insistence on cats and dragons is confusing things. AIR, say you TP'd a 6-foot tall human into a, say, 20-foot tall giant. This giant is standing next to a 15-foot tall cliff, upon which another 6 foot tall human under the effect of True Seeing or Truesight and holding a longsword. Can this human standing on the cliff stab the giant? Or are they out of reach because you can perceive the true form of the 6-foot human they used to be? It seems to me that under your reading of TS affecting targeting, the not-Giant must be out of reach, as they're actually a 6-foot tall human nowhere near the reach of the human on top of the cliff, no?

[AIResearch]

Maybe the insistence on cats and dragons is confusing things. AIR, say you TP'd a 6-foot tall human into a, say, 20-foot tall giant. This giant is standing next to a 15-foot tall cliff, upon which another 6 foot tall human under the effect of True Seeing or Truesight and holding a longsword. Can this human standing on the cliff stab the giant? Or are they out of reach because you can perceive the true form of the 6-foot human they used to be? It seems to me that under your reading of TS affecting targeting, the not-Giant must be out of reach, as they're actually a 6-foot tall human nowhere near the reach of the human on top of the cliff, no?

You got confused by the various strawmans of my argument.

Let's say a creature touches a human that is magically transformed by a magical effect into a cat. If that creature has Truesight then it perceives that it is actually touching a human and could for instance use spells that can only target humans on the human that is magically transformed into a cat.

Similarly, lets say a creature touches a cat that is magically transformed by magical effect into a human (so now is much larger). If that creature has Truesight then it perceives that it is actually touching a cat and could for instance use spells that can only target beasts on the cat that is magically transformed into a human.

[Saint-Just]

Nope. Creatures that have the Truesight ability by definition can perceive past the magic and know that it is actually a human that is transformed by magical effect into a cat and not an actual cat. Truesight reveals things as they actually are. The ability affects targeting.


Then I posit that it's not a matter of "what's truly there". Fireball damages creatures that are truly there regardless of conecealment, invisibility, etc. Healing doesn't work on undead even if they can pass for humans. If a creature is vulnerable to silver than it is vulnerable regardless of what you know about it. So for that to work as you say it must be a special quality of truesight, not a result arising from a general principle.

Now let's tabulate evidence against it.

0) "See things as they actually are" only applies to the True Seeing, so you cannot use it as an evidence how Truesight works. But for the sake of argument let's presume we are talking about True Seeing.

0.5) I believe "things as they actually are" should not be treated as game effect - would you allow someone under the effect of True Seeing to detect counterfeits, ignore mundane disguises, see a famous historical painting if thieves painted another scene over it?

1) Seeing things does not allow you to target them. Notice how True Seeing gives you ability to see into Ethereal - it does not allow your spells to affect Ethereal. There is no evidence that Truesight portion of True Seeing works differently.

2) In general you focus too much on the word definitions like what is "truly" there. TP is unambiguous - game statistics are replaced, there is no clause for "unless detected by True Seeing". So it may be perfectly true that in the normal sense of the word the hapless polymorph is "truly" a man, not a cat, but True Seeing does not say that you can treat them as a man for game purposes.

[Rukelnikov]

Four pages of one poster insisting that a transmutation spell is in effect an illusion. I thought I'd seen it all for derailing. :smallamused:

I think the aging part was interesting :P

[georgie_leech]

You got confused by the various strawmans of my argument.

Let's say a creature touches a human that is magically transformed by a magical effect into a cat. If that creature has Truesight then it perceives that it is actually touching a human and could for instance use spells that can only target humans on the human that is magically transformed into a cat.

Similarly, lets say a creature touches a cat that is magically transformed by magical effect into a human (so now is much larger). If that creature has Truesight then it perceives that it is actually touching a cat and could for instance use spells that can only target beasts on the cat that is magically transformed into a human.

Then let's suppose a wizard with TS casts a Firebolt at a Treant polymorphed into a Fire Elemental. What happens?

[AIResearch]

Then let's suppose a wizard with TS casts a Firebolt at an Ent polymorphed into a Fire Elemental. What happens?

{Scrubbed}

[georgie_leech]

{Scrub the quote too}

...Come again?

[AIResearch]

...come again?


.then let's suppose a wizard with ts casts a firebolt at an ent polymorphed into a fire elemental. What happens?

{Scrubbed}

[georgie_leech]

...did I just break a text Parsing bot?

[AIResearch]

...did I just break a text Parsing bot?

Explain this statement.


then let's suppose a wizard with ts casts a firebolt at an ent polymorphed into a fire elemental. What happens?

[georgie_leech]

Explain this statement.

Sure. A wizard that can perceive (via True Seeing) a Treant that has been polymorphed into a Fire Elemental casts a Firebolt at said Treant/Elemental. Does the Damage Immunity of the Elemental apply, or does the Damage Vulnerability of the Treant apply? You're stance that you're somehow able to target the "true" nature of the polymorphed target would seem to imply the latter.

[AIResearch]

Sure. A wizard that can perceive (via True Seeing) a Treant that has been polymorphed into a Fire Elemental casts a Firebolt at said Treant/Elemental. Does the Damage Immunity of the Elemental apply, or does the Damage Vulnerability of the Treant apply? You're stance that you're somehow able to target the "true" nature of the polymorphed target would seem to imply the latter.
{Scrubbed}

[Saint-Just]

{Scrub the quote}

If you are telling the truth then I recommend you not to resort to snappy comebacks but to engage with the proposed situation and explain how you would handle it or alternatively explain what prevents you from engaging with it.

[AIResearch]

if you are telling the truth then i recommend you not to resort to snappy comebacks but to engage with the proposed situation and explain how you would handle it or alternatively explain what prevents you from engaging with it.

{Scrubbed}

[tokek]

Here's a thorny question that deals with the issues that have been brought up so far. If I True Polymorph a humanoid corpse into a creature does it retain its personality?

The boring answer without the massive derail is that object -> creature does not have the clause about retaining personality and alignment so even if you consider an object to have those things (not impossible in a fantasy game) they are not retained after the spell is cast. It has whatever alignment the stat block of the new creature would normally have and any personality you would expect of that creature.

Only creature to creature retains any personality.

[ixrisor]

{Scrubbed}

[RSP]

Truesight allows the creature with that ability to by definition perceive things as they actually are and to perceive past the magic and that the cat is actually a human under a magical effect. This affects targeting.

Here’s where I think your issue with the RAW is.

The magic of Truesight in no way affects the magic of True Polymorph. There is zero interaction between the two.

TP changes one thing into another. Full stop.

Truesight allows seeing the original form of the TP creature, however, that in no way affects that the TP creature is in a new form.

You still cannot target the “original form” because it doesn’t exist - only the new form does.

It’s very similar to if Truesight let you see an illusion of the original form - seeing that illusion would not allow you to target the illusion as if it were a creature.

[AIResearch]

Sorry for the glitchy responses. Had some bugs to sort out.

Let me provide a scenario that highlights the issues and clarifies my argument.

Lets say you have a BBEG who has been True Polymorphed into an adamantium statue.

And I have a character who has eldritch blast, magical missile, and a rapier.

Luckily this character has Truesight. He perceives that the adamantium statue is actually the BBEG who is being transformed by magical effect into an adamantium statue and is not actually an adamantium statue.

With Truesight this character can shoot eldritch blast and magic missile at the statue magical effect and munch away at those statue magical effect hit points until the statue magical effect goes down which would then expose the BBEG, and then continue to shoot the BBEG with Eldritch Blast and Magic Missile at the BBEG hit points.

Without Truesight he could not use either Eldritch Blast or Magic Missile and would be stuck using a rapier to destroy the adamantium statue to bring down that magical effect and expose the BBEG. Only after the True Polymorph goes down could he then use Eldritch Blast or Magic Missile against the BBEG.

That is my argument.

The argument of many others in this thread is that, with or without Truesight, the character simply cannot use Eldritch Blast or magical missile to take down the True Polymorph of the BBEG into the adamantium statue. Even with Truesight the character must use his rapier against the adamantium statue magical effect until it goes down and only after the magical effect goes down can he then use eldritch blast and magical missile.

[RSP]

He perceives that the adamantium statue is actually the BBEG who is being transformed by magical effect into an adamantium statue and is not actually an adamantium statue.

Is the magical effect True Polymorph? If so, the BBEG is actually a statue, and not a creature.



With Truesight this character can shoot eldritch blast and magic missile at the statue magical effect and munch away at those statue magical effect hit points

No. The BBEG is a statue, and is not a valid target for EB or MM. Truesight let’s you perceive the “original form” of the statue, but that doesn’t mean it’s not actually a statue; it absolutely is.

Nothing in Truesight undoes the magic of TP: if it did, it would tell you.

[AIResearch]

I am applying the definition of Truesight and the spell description of True Seeing.

True Sight


A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that IS [NOTE PRESENT TENSE] transformed by magic. Furthermore, the monster can see into the Ethereal Plane within the same range.

True Seeing


This spell gives the willing creature you touch the ability to see things as they actually ARE[NOTE PRESENT TENSE]. For the duration, the creature has truesight, notices secret doors hidden by magic, and can see into the Ethereal Plane, all out to a range of 120 feet.

Take note of the tense as indicated.

Like many words, "original" has more than one meaning in English.

We know from the use of present tense that your use of "original" is incorrect.

"Original" is here used to describe the state of something apart from a process that would alter or transform it. It is synonymous with "true" as in the "true form" of a Mimic for instance or a Deva who use their polymorph abilities.

[CapnWildefyr]

Are you fully aware that the ability description reads "perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that IS transformed by magic" and not "perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that WAS transformed by magic"?

Are you also fully aware that the spell description for True Seeing (which grants True Sight) reads "perceive things as they actually ARE" and not "perceive things as they actually WERE"?

Yes. Just because I can "perceive" something doesn't mean I can target it. Detect Magic lets me perceive magical auras, and I can't target them either, except with specific spells that target magic.


Here are the differences:
1- a dispel magic or antimagic field will do nothing to the true cat, but it will either suppress or dispel the polymorph effect over cat-turned-into-human, making him human again.
2- Truesight will allow the creature with truesight to see the difference between them, but, in and of itself, does not grant any ability to target the human, so a spell like Hold Person will not work. Because, while the magic's in effect, it's a cat. It's not a fake cat. It's not an illusion of a cat. It IS (notice the verb tense there) a cat, that used to be a human, and this is what Truesight will show.

Yes


Knowing something and being able to act on that knowledge are different things. Yes, truesight lets you know a human TP'd into a cat is actually a human. It does not change the fact that until the TP ends, it is for all intents and purposes a cat. Claiming anything else is convulted, completely baseless, and has nothing to do with logic.

Yes.


You got confused by the various strawmans of my argument.

Let's say a creature touches a human that is magically transformed by a magical effect into a cat. If that creature has Truesight then it perceives that it is actually touching a human and could for instance use spells that can only target humans on the human that is magically transformed into a cat.

Similarly, lets say a creature touches a cat that is magically transformed by magical effect into a human (so now is much larger). If that creature has Truesight then it perceives that it is actually touching a cat and could for instance use spells that can only target beasts on the cat that is magically transformed into a human.

OK, so if I touch the cat, does it somehow not feel furry? Does it weigh as much as a human? Does it have human BO? Does it meow? None of the other senses detect anything but a cat (sound, smell, touch, etc). In fact, the rule you quote says "perceive the original form of a shapechanger..." and although the spell is called "true seeing," it doesn't even strictly say you SEE the original form. Now, please understand that everyone I have ever played DnD with has always ruled this such that you DO see something, perhaps only momentarily, another image superimposed on the cat or whatever. But, "perceive" could technically mean something else, like a gut feeling.

The thing is, though, that spells only target certain things. Nowhere do I recall an interpretation of transmutation magic that says that the original form is displaced to the astral plane or whatever and temporarily replaced by something else. When something is transformed (by TP anyway), it completely becomes something else. That "something else" is all you can target without first dispelling or reversing the transformation.

EDIT: What you are actually suggesting is that True Seeing lets you target your perception of the human-turned-cat when using a spell like hold person. But perception is not a humanoid, and neither is the cat.

[RSP]

"Original" is here used to describe the state of something apart from a process that would alter or transform it. It is synonymous with "true" as in the "true form" of a Mimic for instance or a Deva who use their polymorph abilities.

Original form is exactly as it says. It doesn’t say true form. It clearly uses original in describing the form before it was transformed.

However, the key to all this that you keep missing is that the original form is no more. It doesn’t exist to be targeted. All that exists is the TP’d form.

[diplomancer]

If the original human is still there after being polymorphed into a statue, he would suffocate within minutes. Great save or die spell. Even if you do rule that he can breathe somehow, taking away the spell's combat application as a save or die, he would die of thirst within days.

But, of course, he doesn't. Because there's no human there to suffocate or die of thirst.

[AIResearch]

Original form is exactly as it says. It doesn’t say true form. It clearly uses original in describing the form before it was transformed.

RSP,
does the word "original" have one meaning in English or more than one meaning?


When something is transformed (by TP anyway), it completely becomes something else.

This isn't true.

There is a massive difference between what TP accomplishes and what a risky Wish or Divine Intervention can accomplish.

Let's say character uses a risky Wish or Divine Intervention to become a cat then will then be an actual true cat. The cat will age and die and when it dies the actual physical matter of the cat will be there. Dispel Magic will do nothing to the cat. The cat will exist just fine in a Dead Magic Zone. Truesight would confirm that it is an actual true cat.

If a character uses TP and is transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a cat the character will not be an actual true cat. The transformation is entirely a magical effect. The cat will not age. After the cat dies the matter of the cat vanishes as it never was truly there. Dispel Magic will end the magical effect and reveal that the cat was actually a humanoid that had been transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a cat. The cat vanishes in an Antimagic Field or Dead Magic Zone as the cat matter isn't real physical matter. Truesight reveals that the character is actually a humanoid that is being transformed into a cat. Creatures with Truesight can cast Hold person on the cat as they can perceive what things actually are.

If the character wants to completely become a cat then the character needs to use a risky Wish or Divine Intervention.

[diplomancer]

RSP,
does the word "original" have one meaning in English or more than one meaning?

More than one. Though none of them is "true", and the intended one is obvious.




The cat will not age.

So you keep claiming, without any evidence. Cats age. True Polymorph has transformed one creature or object into a cat. Therefore, this now transformed creature will age like a cat.

In the same way, cats suffocate, starve, and die of thirst. True Polymorph does not change that, keeping the cat magically healthy because "well, he's been polymorphed into a healthy cat"


Anyway, all this silly discussion has not been fruitless. I now see that True Polymorph might be one of the best ways to keep a BBEG permanently "dead", assuming it's not a Shapechanger. Truepolymorph him into a coin, put him in a Demiplane. No True Resurrection for you!

[AIResearch]

More than one. Though none of them is "true", and the intended one is obvious.

When a word has more than one meaning how do you determine which meaning to use?



So you keep claiming, without any evidence. Cats age. True Polymorph has transformed one creature or object into a cat. Therefore, this now transformed creature will age like a cat.

In the same way, cats suffocate, starve, and die of thirst. True Polymorph does not change that, keeping the cat magically healthy because "well, he's been polymorphed into a healthy cat"


Anyway, all this silly discussion has not been fruitless. I now see that True Polymorph might be one of the best ways to keep a BBEG permanently "dead", assuming it's not a Shapechanger. Truepolymorph him into a coin, put him in a Demiplane. No True Resurrection for you!

You are not scrutinizing what is actually going on.True Polymorph is a spell that creates an ongoing spell effect that is defined at casting and cannot be changed. Using exact language what is that exact spell effect?

[diplomancer]

When a word has more than one meaning how do you determine which meaning to use?

By context.





You are not scrutinizing what is actually going on.True Polymorph is a spell that creates an ongoing spell effect that is defined at casting and cannot be changed. Using exact language what is that exact spell effect?

You are the one who is not scrutinizing, by not thinking through what words mean. And, if they meant what you think it means (namely, that the spell keeps the form entirely fixed, no matter what happens to it afterwards, including age, suffocation, starvation, and thirst), it would also mean instant regeneration back to full hit points after any attack that did not reduce the creature instantly to zero hit points.

No where does the spell state that the new form is fixed. If you true polymorph a human into a dog, and then clip the dog's ear, the dog will not instantly get its ear back. And if you then dispelled the True Polymorph, the human would have his ear whole (because it was the cat who had its ear clipped, not the human)

As to your question: the ongoing spell effect is keeping the polymorphed target polymorphed. It does not keep the new form entirely fixed in its accidents, only in its essence, if you want to get philosophical. Paint green a polymophed blue statue, and it will be green. But it will still be a statue.

[Saint-Just]

Sorry for the glitchy responses. Had some bugs to sort out.


{Scrubbed}

[CapnWildefyr]

RSP,
{snip}
This isn't true.

There is a massive difference between what TP accomplishes and what a risky Wish or Divine Intervention can accomplish.

Let's say character uses a risky Wish or Divine Intervention to become a cat then will then be an actual true cat. The cat will age and die and when it dies the actual physical matter of the cat will be there. Dispel Magic will do nothing to the cat. The cat will exist just fine in a Dead Magic Zone. Truesight would confirm that it is an actual true cat.

If a character uses TP and is transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a cat the character will not be an actual true cat. The transformation is entirely a magical effect. The cat will not age. After the cat dies the matter of the cat vanishes as it never was truly there. Dispel Magic will end the magical effect and reveal that the cat was actually a humanoid that had been transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a cat. The cat vanishes in an Antimagic Field or Dead Magic Zone as the cat matter isn't real physical matter. Truesight reveals that the character is actually a humanoid that is being transformed into a cat. Creatures with Truesight can cast Hold person on the cat as they can perceive what things actually are.

If the character wants to completely become a cat then the character needs to use a risky Wish or Divine Intervention.

Wish and divine intervention are also magical effects. Just because the duration is different compared to TP does not mean that TP does not also create a real cat from a human, to keep with the same example. Until TP expires, it's a cat.

You also missed my most important point, added as an edit. True seeing/sight allows you to perceive the original form of something. That is a perception. The original form does not exist. Only in your mind do you perceive that original form. No one else, no tests, can discover it. That's why you can't target it with most spells. Most spells target creatures and objects. A perception is not a creature or object. (As far as I can recall without looking it up, the only spells that target a person's perceptions are spells like confusion and illusions.) Nowhere in TP does it mention anything at all about continued existence of the original form. It's a transformation/alteration spell. It changes matter. Just because you can change it back does not mean that the transformation never happened. So my perception of the human-turned-cat is not a valid target for hold person, for example.

In a way, it's like true sight lets you see in color, while everyone else sees in black and white. Just because you see more information about a cat (it's an orange tabby) doesn't mean you can use hold person on it. So TS lets me see that cat is a transformed human. I still can't target a cat with hold person.

[JackPhoenix]

No where does the spell state that the new form is fixed. If you true polymorph a human into a dog, and then clip the dog's ear, the dog will not instantly get its ear back. And if you then dispelled the True Polymorph, the human would have his ear whole (because it was the cat who had its ear clipped, not the human)

Wait wait wait.... if a human was TP'd into a dog, then dog had his ear clipped... what does a cat have to do with it? I'm as confused as [censored].

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: thread closed. If those who wish to continue the discussion about True Polymorph wish to make their own thread for it, they're welcome. If the OP of this thread wishes to make a new thread regarding their original topic, they are also welcome.