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Greywander
2021-12-31, 06:05 PM
Here's a quick revised monk I threw together: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JEC7rsuj6iJgqnI7lvsmyUJD4tlRdAjUjiw4pVA9Ffo/edit?usp=sharing

Forum-quotable version under the spoiler. Only new/modified features are shown, with changes/additions shown in blue, and removals shown in red.
Martial Arts
Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property any weapons you are proficient with that don't have the two-handed property.

You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield you aren’t proficient with.

You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table*.
When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn.

Certain monasteries use specialized forms of the monk weapons. For example, you might use a club that is two lengths of wood connected by a short chain (called a nunchaku) or a sickle with a shorter, straighter blade (called a kama).

*Your martial arts die scales at the same levels as before, but now it goes from 1d4 to 2d4 to 3d4 to 4d4.

Ki
Starting at 2nd level, your training allows you to harness the mystic energy of ki. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of ki points. Your monk level determines the number of points you have, as shown in the Ki Points column of the Monk table.

You can spend these points to fuel various ki features. You start knowing three such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind, this last being detailed in its own feature. You learn more ki features as you gain levels in this class.

When you spend a ki point, it is unavailable until you finish a short or long rest, at the end of which you draw all of your expended ki back into yourself. You must spend at least 30 minutes of the rest meditating to regain your ki points.

Some of your ki features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature's effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:

Ki save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier

Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make one additional weapon attack, which must be an unarmed strike.

Patient Defense
You can spend 1 ki point to take the Dodge action as a bonus action on your turn.

Step of the Wind
You can spend 1 ki point to take the Disengage or Dash action as a bonus action on your turn, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn.

Unarmored Movement

Step of the Wind
Starting at 2nd level, your speed increases by 10 feet while you are not wearing armor or wielding a shield with which you aren’t proficient. This bonus increases when you reach certain monk levels, as shown in the Monk table.

On your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to double the bonus to your speed from this feature. When you do so, your movement does not provoke opportunity attacks and your jump distance is doubled until the end of your turn. Using this feature does not require an action.

At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the move.

Ability Score Improvement
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 10th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

Stillness of Mind
Starting at 7th level, you can use your action to end one effect on yourself that is causing you to be charmed or frightened.
Starting at 7th level, if you are charmed or frightened at the start of your turn, you may end one effect on yourself that is causing you to be charmed or frightened. When you do so, you lose your action for that turn.

Perfect Self
At 20th level, when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining, you regain 4 ki points.
Beginning at 20th level, if you start your turn with less than 4 ki points, you regain 1 ki point.

Okay, so let's go over some of these changes and why they exist. First, I wanted to clean up some of the bonus action stuff. Flurry of Blows now adds an additional unarmed strike to your Attack action, being functionally identical to how it worked before if you also take your Martial Arts BA attack. The difference is that you can Flurry and still use your BA for something else. Step of the Wind no longer uses a BA, either, simply requiring you to expend a point of ki. Step of the Wind also works differently in that it simply doubles your Unarmored Movement bonus instead of taking the Dash action. Monks are already speedy bois, so I didn't think they needed a BA Dash that much, and this makes monk/rogue multiclasses more interesting since you can now use both Step of the Wind and a BA Dash together.

The second thing was cleaning up how armor is handled. Only armor you're not proficient with impedes Martial Arts and Unarmored Movement (which is why Unarmored Movement was renamed/replaced with Step of the Wind). Monks don't get any armor proficiencies, so straight-classed monks shouldn't see any difference, but through feats, multiclassing, or certain races, an armored monk is now an option. I'm of the opinion that armor is generally less viable than being unarmored for monks, unless you happen to find magical armor. Access to armor lets you get a higher AC early on, but once you max out both DEX and WIS, your unarmored AC will be better (sans magic armor). But lets say you want to play a STR monk, or you don't want to invest too deeply into WIS. Well, now you have viable alternatives that allow you to have decent AC while doing that.

Likewise, monk weapons are now any weapon you are proficient with that doesn't have the two-handed property. Again, I haven't changes the monk's weapon proficiencies, but if you obtain proficiencies from another source then you'll be able to use those weapons as monk weapons. This renders Dedicated Weapon obsolete.

I've also changed how the Martial Arts die scales. It scales at the same levels as before, but now goes from 1d4 to 4d4. Apparently, the consensus is that monks are strong enough in the early levels, but their damage drops off at later levels. I'm not sure how much of a factor this really is, but this was one option I considered to ameliorate this. Another option I decided not to go with, but might reconsider, is adding both STR and DEX mod to damage rolls, possibly just for unarmed strikes (to make them compete with magic weapons). That said, monks are already quite MAD, they don't need another stat that needs to be invested in. But this could at least be a good reason to leave STR at 12 or so instead of dumping it to 8.

Speaking of MADness, monks now get an additional ASI at 10th level.

Based on a video from Treantmonk, I tweaked Stillness of Mind to be usable under conditions where the charm or frighten effect doesn't allow you to take actions.

Perfect Self now recovers 1 ki every turn if you have less than 4. This means you always enter combat with at least 4 ki, and can always use at least 1 ki point per turn. It does prevent you from chaining a lot of ki abilities together, or using more expensive ki features, but this is already pretty great value. Being able to Flurry or Stunning Strike every round is pretty good. This feature basically gives you permission to go nova and dump as much ki as you can as quickly as you can, and still always have a small amount of ki to fall back on.

I might later go in and tweak some of the subclasses, but for now I wanted to focus on the base class. I'm also not familiar with every monk subclass, and I know some, like the Four Elements, need a lot of reworking, and I'm just not confident I can do that justice at this point. For now, let me know what you think of these changes, if it could be made better, and what I might want to look out for while tweaking subclasses (e.g. subclasses that are disproportionally affected by these changes).

MrStabby
2021-12-31, 10:26 PM
I am a bit worried about some of these. I know I have had a more positive experience of monks than most, thinking that they are generally OK in some campaign but can be very DM dependant - but I think all this together is a little bit much.

There are a lot of good ideas - the martial arts die going from 1d4 to 4d4 is a HUGE power boost, though one I am generally OK with. It does mean a huge step up in power at 5th level as you get this and the stunning strike and extra attack. Honestly I also feel monks haven't begun to drop behind in damage that much at this point (I tend to find it happens at level 8 and is a consequence of the great feat support other martial styles get). That said, it boosts the things that really make you feel like a monk.

It might be worth keeping an eye on things like the way of Mercy monk that uses Martial Arts dice a lot - some of their healing and nova capabilities could leap forwards a bit more than expected. Or the ascendant dragon monk that at level 11 would be doing 9d4 of damage in a cone as part of an attack action... it doesn't seem outragious by itself but is clearly a big step up.

I think that the extra ASI at 10 isn't needed with this (not least because Monks don't have so many feats they want to spend their ASIs on as other classes).

I think I would be really careful about the "4 ki per turn" capstone as well... well careful isn't really the right word as we are at level 20 and everything is crazy - bu beware of things like Way of Mercy Monk having infinite healing as long as combat doesn't end. It supports weird things like endless dodging whilst the monk heals the party.

Kane0
2022-01-01, 01:50 AM
Looks pretty good to me. Nothing too extreme aside from maybe crits with your multiple d4 damage dice.

Given that flurry now doesnt use your BA (but the standard martial arts attack does), i'd probably leave step of the wind using it.

Greywander
2022-01-01, 03:53 AM
There are a lot of good ideas - the martial arts die going from 1d4 to 4d4 is a HUGE power boost, though one I am generally OK with. It does mean a huge step up in power at 5th level as you get this and the stunning strike and extra attack. Honestly I also feel monks haven't begun to drop behind in damage that much at this point (I tend to find it happens at level 8 and is a consequence of the great feat support other martial styles get). That said, it boosts the things that really make you feel like a monk.
Yeah, it seems like monks are fine in T1 and T2, I just wanted to have simple scaling. Treantmonk's video on fixing monks suggested using 1d6 to 1d8 to 2d6 to 3d6, which gives less of a boost at 5th level but just feels a bit janky. Using d4s keeps a similar progression to what Treantmonk suggests, but is more uniform. 2d4 is roughly comparable to 1d8, so it puts monks on par with most other martials at 5th level, though they also get that BA attack, so maybe it is a bit much. Maybe a better progression would be 1d4 to 1d6 to 2d6 to 3d6, which is a bit less janky than Treantmonk's suggestion, since we never jump down a die size.

I think it's also worth considering that maybe only some of these changes need to be implemented, and doing all of them could be over-correcting. Then it's a matter of figuring out which changes are the best ones to keep. The Martial Arts die might be one of the changes I end up dropping, as the issues it was meant to fix might already be addressed elsewhere. Maybe I should revert the Martial Arts die and instead go with my idea of adding both STR and DEX mod to unarmed strike damage rolls?


It might be worth keeping an eye on things like the way of Mercy monk that uses Martial Arts dice a lot - some of their healing and nova capabilities could leap forwards a bit more than expected. Or the ascendant dragon monk that at level 11 would be doing 9d4 of damage in a cone as part of an attack action... it doesn't seem outragious by itself but is clearly a big step up.
Yes, subclass features that scale off your Martial Arts die would likely need to be reworked. They could simply reincorporate the original die scaling, but built directly into the feature. Or they could be tweaked to cost more ki or have fewer uses.


I think that the extra ASI at 10 isn't needed with this (not least because Monks don't have so many feats they want to spend their ASIs on as other classes).
10th level is around where they seem to drop off, though, so even just getting an ASI early could help get them back on track. That, and there's always flavorful feats you could get if you didn't strictly need one for your build. Or just get some extra CON to make up for your smaller hit die. It's just nice to have some choices instead of feeling like you have to wait until 19th level to pick up your one and only feat.


I think I would be really careful about the "4 ki per turn" capstone as well... well careful isn't really the right word as we are at level 20 and everything is crazy - bu beware of things like Way of Mercy Monk having infinite healing as long as combat doesn't end. It supports weird things like endless dodging whilst the monk heals the party.
True, but I'm less worried about that at 20th level. There are other ways to get infinite healing at that point, or even earlier, e.g. via Spell Mastery on a Mark of Healing wizard. (Also, it's only 1 ki per turn, up to a max of 4. Not 4 ki per turn.) Also, for me, personally, I would allow the ki to regenerate outside of combat, since I don't like gamey stuff like artificially prolonging combat to heal. Do remember that this only works when you're almost out of ki, so your nova potential is greatly limited. At that point, you're probably looking to take a short rest anyway, so while it would save you some hit dice, you'd be healed either way.

In general, I just like it when a previously limited resource becomes at-will, even if it's at reduced strength. Swords bards get something like this, for example. It encourages you to actually use your abilities more, instead of hoarding them, and insures you always have something you can use, even if it's not your most powerful stuff. A monk starting combat with only 4 ki and regaining 1 ki per turn can have a moderately strong opening (e.g. Flurry with three Stunning Strikes), but is then limited for the rest of combat. It's not ideal, but it's far better than a monk with no ki left.


Looks pretty good to me. Nothing too extreme aside from maybe crits with your multiple d4 damage dice.
More extreme than Sneak Attack or Smite crits? Crit fishing is generally not a great strategy anyway (not terrible, just not great), particularly since monks don't get anything to increase their crit range. It just makes the occasional crit a bit more special.


Given that flurry now doesnt use your BA (but the standard martial arts attack does), i'd probably leave step of the wind using it.
To be honest, I haven't seen monks in play that much, but I have a feeling Step of the Wind doesn't get used a lot, specifically because of the bonus action cost. There's usually a bad guy in range that you could be punching instead. Am I off the mark here? Monks are already pretty fast, so it doesn't seem like they'd need to Dash that often, but there may be cases where a bit of extra speed (or a free Disengage) is useful, but not worth giving up an attack. That was my thought process, anyway, but I could be wrong.

As mentioned above, though, not all of these changes might be necessary, so this might be one that I end up reverting.


I think overall the changes I'm most interested in retaining are:

The changes to how monk weapons and armor proficiencies are handled. The armor restrictions were always kind of pointless.
The bonus action clean up, making you actually use some of these features more, since they're no longer mutually exclusive.
The extra ASI, which is sorely needed on a class as MAD as this. Since campaigns rarely go to 20, your actual number of ASIs is usually significantly less than shown. And there's always something neat you could spend it on if you didn't really need it.
The capstone, not necessarily in this form, but it definitely needs to be something much stronger than the original. Capstones should feel special and powerful.

Anything else is open for potential removal or reworking, though they may also be fine to keep. It's mostly just a question of how far behind the monk is, and when do they need a boost?

Kane0
2022-01-01, 06:43 AM
More extreme than Sneak Attack or Smite crits? Crit fishing is generally not a great strategy anyway (not terrible, just not great), particularly since monks don't get anything to increase their crit range. It just makes the occasional crit a bit more special.

To be honest, I haven't seen monks in play that much, but I have a feeling Step of the Wind doesn't get used a lot, specifically because of the bonus action cost. There's usually a bad guy in range that you could be punching instead. Am I off the mark here? Monks are already pretty fast, so it doesn't seem like they'd need to Dash that often, but there may be cases where a bit of extra speed (or a free Disengage) is useful, but not worth giving up an attack. That was my thought process, anyway, but I could be wrong.

As mentioned above, though, not all of these changes might be necessary, so this might be one that I end up reverting.


I think overall the changes I'm most interested in retaining are:

The changes to how monk weapons and armor proficiencies are handled. The armor restrictions were always kind of pointless.
The bonus action clean up, making you actually use some of these features more, since they're no longer mutually exclusive.
The extra ASI, which is sorely needed on a class as MAD as this. Since campaigns rarely go to 20, your actual number of ASIs is usually significantly less than shown. And there's always something neat you could spend it on if you didn't really need it.
The capstone, not necessarily in this form, but it definitely needs to be something much stronger than the original. Capstones should feel special and powerful.

Anything else is open for potential removal or reworking, though they may also be fine to keep. It's mostly just a question of how far behind the monk is, and when do they need a boost?

It's really not going to break the game in half, but consider that Monks makes a lot more attack rolls than Rogues and don't have to expend any resources to benefit like smiting Paladins/Warlocks. You can also compare to say the Dueling Fighting Style or Barbarian's bonus Rage damage neither of which scale as well nor enjoy crit benefits, and all these might stack.
I've just increased the initial die size one step myself (d6>d8>d10>d12), so you're adding +2.5 average damage per bump against my +1 with a +1 head start. I would keep an eye on it and report your findings.

Monk action economy is... wonky. IME its pretty much always flurry when possible (or ki fueled/martial arts when conserving) with the occasional Patient Defense to keep oneself alive and very rare SotW when getting into our out of combat and Drunken Master, Mobile, etc aren't already being employed in the same fashion. It feels like there should be a sort of even blend going on but in play that rarely seems to be the case (subclass/feats overlapping with mobility and the damage+stun is optimal mentality exacerbates the issue).

Basically how I do it is:
- Martial Arts BA attack unchanged
- Patient Defense unchanged
- Flurry 1 ki for 1 extra attack in attack action (same as you), i've considered also allowing it to work with ki-fueled attack
- Step of the Wind BA dodge or disengage, separately spend 1 ki to triple jump (no action cost)
- Quickened Healing usable at no action cost when you spend ki with your action or bonus action
- Empty body is BA
So you still have a lot of competition for your BA but now it feels a lot more equal given that the 'two attacks for 1 BA and 1 Ki' isn't there anymore, plus QH and EB are much more usable mid-fight to boot.

Armor: good
BA cleanup: See above
Extra ASI:: good
Capstone: I do one 'temporary' Ki each turn. Not the same as Ki regen because you can't store it back up but still really good in and out of combat.