"Hero" Class

[paladinn]

As y’all know, I’ve been taking a look at the 3.5 UA “Generic” classes, True20, and a few other takes on such things. The concept of converting all class features to “feats” is an intriguing one, and would facilitate all sort of character concepts, IMO. But I’ve been thinking: if all features are made into feats, do we really even need 3 classes?

There have been a lot of attempts at a “classless” game; these are my ramblings about a “one-class” game, with the Hero class!

All characters at creation are proficient with simple weapons and light armor. They start with 1d6 HD, and Wizard/ Spellcaster BAB. Each starts with 4x(4+IntMod) skill points, to be spent on any skills desired, and 4 feats.

There are 4 feats that must be chosen-from at L1. Combat Skill can be taken up to twice. Taking it once raises BAB to Rogue/ Expert level; taking it twice raises to Fighter/Warrior level. Health/ Hardiness/ (what's a better word?) can also be taken up to twice. Taking once raises HD to d8; twice raises it to d10.

Every level afterward grants one feat and 4+IntMod skill points. The skill points can again be spent as desired. Feats are either typical feats, a package of extra skill points, converted class features, or one level of spellcasting.

So fighter-types could spend all their L1 feats on HD and BAB, and start building up armor and weapons (and combat feats) as they progress. Mages could start with their 1st level of spells, some skills and 2 metamagic feats. Rogue-types could start with 1 HD and 1 BAB upgrade, a bunch of skills, and Sneak Attack.

Any thoughts or suggested changes?

[Jervis]

As y’all know, I’ve been taking a look at the 3.5 UA “Generic” classes, True20, and a few other takes on such things. The concept of converting all class features to “feats” is an intriguing one, and would facilitate all sort of character concepts, IMO. But I’ve been thinking: if all features are made into feats, do we really even need 3 classes?

There have been a lot of attempts at a “classless” game; these are my ramblings about a “one-class” game, with the Hero class!

All characters at creation are proficient with simple weapons and light armor. They start with 1d6 HD, and Wizard/ Spellcaster BAB. Each starts with 4x(4+IntMod) skill points, to be spent on any skills desired, and 4 feats.

There are 4 feats that must be chosen-from at L1. Combat Skill can be taken up to twice. Taking it once raises BAB to Rogue/ Expert level; taking it twice raises to Fighter/Warrior level. Health/ Hardiness/ (what's a better word?) can also be taken up to twice. Taking once raises HD to d8; twice raises it to d10.

Every level afterward grants one feat and 4+IntMod skill points. The skill points can again be spent as desired. Feats are either typical feats, a package of extra skill points, converted class features, or one level of spellcasting.

So fighter-types could spend all their L1 feats on HD and BAB, and start building up armor and weapons (and combat feats) as they progress. Mages could start with their 1st level of spells, some skills and 2 metamagic feats. Rogue-types could start with 1 HD and 1 BAB upgrade, a bunch of skills, and Sneak Attack.

Any thoughts or suggested changes?

Problem is that, for the most part, those metamagic feats aren’t that impactful. You would rather dope up health. It also doesn’t explain how magic fits into this. Is it a feat every two levels? One feat up front? A chain of two? Spellcasting is worth a crap ton but it means if you invest into it at all you’ll probably be locked into being just a wizard

[sreservoir]

You're not actually simplifying things vs throwing together a class table per character you're running and working it out as you go along.

Balancing generics in full generality means you're going to be doing a whole lot of work that's only going to matter if you get to run this system more times than you will.

[paladinn]

Problem is that, for the most part, those metamagic feats aren’t that impactful. You would rather dope up health. It also doesn’t explain how magic fits into this. Is it a feat every two levels? One feat up front? A chain of two? Spellcasting is worth a crap ton but it means if you invest into it at all you’ll probably be locked into being just a wizard

One level of spellcasting equals one "feat". For most mages, doing anything beside taking the next spellcasting level doesn't make a lot of sense. But if a mage player just Has to have sword proficiency, s/he can do it. Or if a ranger or paladin wants a few spell casting levels, they can do it. Spells are still way powerful; but at least a character won't get a feat And spells on a given level (besides maybe L1).

[Maat Mons]

I feel that feats are a very coarse unit in which to measure power gain. If the choices are "+1 level of spellcasting" or "something else," and they cost the same, the right answer is always spellcasting. So if a level of spellcasting costs a feat, these other things need to cost some fraction of a feat to be viable choices.

Alternately, you could say you gain 10 (or whatever) "character-building points" every level, and spellcasting costs 10 (or whatever) of these points to advance. Then you can have things that are less valuable be cheaper, without introducing a concept like "half-feats." Of course, if you're awarding xp, and accruing enough xp gives you a level, which gives you some number of "character-building points," you could just cut out the middle-man and have class features cost xp directly.

My main objection to other systems like this has always been that they use linear costs. I don't think the cost of going from 8th-level spells to 9th-level spells should be the same as the cost of going from 1st-level spells to 2nd-level spells. I think those costs should escalate, even though that means that higher-level characters need more points available to them in order to be able to afford them. Increasing costs and also increasing the resource used to pay those costs might seem like no change at all, but it allows a high-level character to pick up a few low-level class features for what is, to them, very little cost. I think this is good.



How are saves handled in your system? Does everyone get one good save? Do people buy good saves with feats? If it's one free good save and a feat for an extra one, I'd start out with 1 feat spent to gain casting, one feat spent to have both good Fort an Will saves, and one feat spent to have d8 hit dice. That is, assuming I couldn't spend all 4 feats to have 4th-level casting at 1st level. Oh, wait, I only allotted 3 feats. Are all 1st-level class features available at 1st level for a feat? If so, I guess I'd go for Monk's Unarmored AC Bonus. I can pick Wisdom as my casting stat, right? And still have access to the full Sorcerer/Wizard spell list?

How does spending a feat on skill points work? Does one feat bump you up to 6+Int skill points per level? Does a feat just give you some fixed number of skill points? How does spending a feat for proficiencies work? Does it bump you up to being proficient with all Martial weapons, followed by all exotic weapons? Or do you just gain proficiency with one single weapon, like the feats Martial Weapon Proficiency and Exotic Weapon Proficiency?

[Jervis]

I feel that feats are a very coarse unit in which to measure power gain. If the choices are "+1 level of spellcasting" or "something else," and they cost the same, the right answer is always spellcasting. So if a level of spellcasting costs a feat, these other things need to cost some fraction of a feat to be viable choices.

Alternately, you could say you gain 10 (or whatever) "character-building points" every level, and spellcasting costs 10 (or whatever) of these points to advance. Then you can have things that are less valuable be cheaper, without introducing a concept like "half-feats." Of course, if you're awarding xp, and accruing enough xp gives you a level, which gives you some number of "character-building points," you could just cut out the middle-man and have class features cost xp directly.

My main objection to other systems like this has always been that they use linear costs. I don't think the cost of going from 8th-level spells to 9th-level spells should be the same as the cost of going from 1st-level spells to 2nd-level spells. I think those costs should escalate, even though that means that higher-level characters need more points available to them in order to be able to afford them. Increasing costs and also increasing the resource used to pay those costs might seem like no change at all, but it allows a high-level character to pick up a few low-level class features for what is, to them, very little cost. I think this is good.



How are saves handled in your system? Does everyone get one good save? Do people buy good saves with feats? If it's one free good save and a feat for an extra one, I'd start out with 1 feat spent to gain casting, one feat spent to have both good Fort an Will saves, and one feat spent to have d8 hit dice. That is, assuming I couldn't spend all 4 feats to have 4th-level casting at 1st level. Oh, wait, I only allotted 3 feats. Are all 1st-level class features available at 1st level for a feat? If so, I guess I'd go for Monk's Unarmored AC Bonus. I can pick Wisdom as my casting stat, right? And still have access to the full Sorcerer/Wizard spell list?

How does spending a feat on skill points work? Does one feat bump you up to 6+Int skill points per level? Does a feat just give you some fixed number of skill points? How does spending a feat for proficiencies work? Does it bump you up to being proficient with all Martial weapons, followed by all exotic weapons? Or do you just gain proficiency with one single weapon, like the feats Martial Weapon Proficiency and Exotic Weapon Proficiency?

This is honestly why I think dnd isn’t a good fit for classless advancement like this. D20 modern and it’s hacks can kinda do it but honestly i’m not the hugest fan of those either

[StSword]

Well it took me forever and a day to find it, but you might want to look at the Pay what you want supplement D20 Unchained (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/254400/D20-Unchained), which does away with classes and replaces everything with feats and a skill based magic system.

[paladinn]

Well it took me forever and a day to find it, but you might want to look at the Pay what you want supplement D20 Unchained (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/254400/D20-Unchained), which does away with classes and replaces everything with feats and a skill based magic system.

Thanks for all the effort!

[Curbludgeon]

Using the OP guidelines would result in four viable character options: a d10 HD caster with rogue BaB, a d10 HD caster with 1 casting-related adapted ability, a d8 HD caster with 1 2-feat chain, or a d6 HD caster with 1 3 feat-chain. Compared to just having a bunch of classes much of the game's modularity is lost for not enough gain in general applicability.

Feats are a pretty chunky measure for a point-buy method, especially when it applies to both character abilities and more fundamental attributes. As a first step to do such, I'd look at the Unearthed Arcana generic classes, decide how a dedicated caster would compare to the divine spellcaster generic class in terms of number of "feat" slots, and then get frustrated trying to come up with an elegant system of fractional feat costs for abilities outside of "+1 spellcaster level." The next step would be to decide just how "feats" one caster level is worth instead before inflating the Hero class feat schedule, and then it's just a matter of acquiescing on what granularity fits their point buy.

[paladinn]

I'm already going to adapt the 5e spell/slot system. One of the variants is a very viable spell Point system.

Thinking.. when a Hero levels up, s/he can take a "level" of spell casting, which in this case would equate to one new spell (of whatever level) and a certain number of spell points. The question then becomes a matter of the spell level allowed. Right now a 5th level caster can use 3rd level spells. A new spell Level is gained every 2 caster levels.

I'm also wanting to eliminate as many "feat chains" as possible. Why should Cleave depend on also having Power Attack?

[zlefin]

Of the many alternate attempts at a classless 3.5 system, which ones do you think are best? I'd love to look through more of them and see what they did.

[RandomPeasant]

I think if you want to play a classless system, you should just play a classless system. Trying to hack 3e into one seems unlikely to be productive. If you want people to be able to customize their characters a lot for a game, just say "I will let you propose new ACFs and be generous in which ones I accept". If someone wants to be a Dread Necromancer who has a smaller undead army but turns into a horrifying undead bear, don't make them allocate a bunch of feats to get the things they want, just give them a custom ACF that trades Undead Mastery for an "Undead Wild Shape".

[paladinn]

I think if you want to play a classless system, you should just play a classless system. Trying to hack 3e into one seems unlikely to be productive. If you want people to be able to customize their characters a lot for a game, just say "I will let you propose new ACFs and be generous in which ones I accept". If someone wants to be a Dread Necromancer who has a smaller undead army but turns into a horrifying undead bear, don't make them allocate a bunch of feats to get the things they want, just give them a custom ACF that trades Undead Mastery for an "Undead Wild Shape".

Just trying to use an existing, WotC-approved concept (i.e. the "generic" classes from UA) to see what else can be accomplished. Still want it to be D&D and hopefully to be usable with 3.5 modules and such.

[StSword]

Of the many alternate attempts at a classless 3.5 system, which ones do you think are best? I'd love to look through more of them and see what they did.

Really depends on what you want.

There's D20 Unchained (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/254400/D20-Unchained) I already mentioned which turns class abilities into feats and gives access to spellcasting through skills. Could certainly be expanded as you like with more class abilities, but that would require a little work.

There's Complete Control, which has formulas for experience point costs, but it has balance issues- Not all fifth level abilities are the same, now are they, but under this system they would cost the same. However it has the advantage that the system would work for any class you have your eye on, from the standard to the most imaginative third party class.

There's Eclipse the Codex Persona (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/51255/Eclipse-The-Codex-Persona-Shareware?src=newest) which comes in shareware and paid versions, which is also a do it yourself system, but it's goal is basically to allow to allow you to play whatever you like, if you want a party that could include a Jedi, a vampire, and a magical pony princess, one should check that out.

There's the BESM d20 system and it's Pathfinder sequel Play Manga d20. They both have point conversions for all the standard classes as well as anime inspired classes like Monster Trainer, Sentai Ranger, and Magical Girl, as well as a point buy system for building your characters from scratch.

Those are the ones that immediately come to mind, there are undoubtedly others.

[mabriss lethe]

Another classless d20 system that comes to mind is Mutants and Masterminds. It has a high degree of granularity for all sorts of archetypes and is an absolute breeze to play. The one downside is that character creation is a slog.

[StSword]

Another classless d20 system that comes to mind is Mutants and Masterminds. It has a high degree of granularity for all sorts of archetypes and is an absolute breeze to play. The one downside is that character creation is a slog.

True, they even have a fantasy supplement Warriors and Warlocks.

But the OP mentioned looking for something that one could still use the published modules and the like, and I'm not sure if M&M fits that bill, though.

[paladinn]

True, they even have a fantasy supplement Warriors and Warlocks.

But the OP mentioned looking for something that one could still use the published modules and the like, and I'm not sure if M&M fits that bill, though.

I was somewhat of a M&M fan when it first came out. 2nd edition was even better IMO. 3rd edition kind of left the D20 reservation in a lot of ways.

I wish someone would rework/re-release Silver Age Sentinels D20. It really was D&D Superheroes in a lot of ways, but it did have classes.

[Jack_Simth]

You may want to look at the Freelancer Class (https://www.finalfantasyd20.com/classes/miscellaneous-classes/freelancer/) from the Final Fantasy d20 System (FFd20). Some notes:

FFd20 is based on Pathfinder, not D&D 3.5. Pretty minor, but something to note.
For the most part, FFd20 targets a higher power level than Pathfinder, for the most part. You may want to reduce the points.
FFd20 casting is usually weaker than Pathfinder's (more lists, more specialized). You may want to increase the cost of casting.