Vicious hitting self

[Railak]

So I have a question about the vicious weapon enchantment. So some critical failure tables, cards, etc, have hitting yourself as a result. If you have a vicious weapon does it do 2d6 or 3d6? Because vicious does 2d6 to the target and 1d6 to the wielder.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you're using those kinds of critical miss rules, I assume that your DM hates you. Take 3d6 damage.

[Arkhios]

If you're using those kinds of critical miss rules, I assume that your DM hates you. Take 3d6 damage.

Strongly disagree. At least, in our games, whenever we use the Critical and Fumble decks (cards, made for Pathfinder 1e, but work well with 3.5 as well), it's our choice as a group, not DM's decision alone.

[DeTess]

Since these fumble rules are homebrew, you'll have to ask your DM or the author of the homebrew if they're not your DM. Taking 3d6 seems the intuitive answer though.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Okay, then let's precise the question a bit: what if a creature with a Vicious weapon is affected by Death Urge? Do you take any additional damage at all? Do you take 3d6?

[Zombimode]

Yeah, you don't need fumble rules for instances of creatures dealing damage against themselves. Backbiter (regardless of version of the spell) is a 1st level spell that does this so it is worthwhile thinking about the interaction with a Vicious weapon.

Thankfully the description of Vicious contains an important condition for when (and how) the extra damage applies:

When a vicious weapon strikes an opponent, it creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder.

The extra damage is the result of a flash of disrupting energy between the wielder and the struck opponent.

So the first thing we have to determine if, in any specific instance of a creature hitting itself with a vicious weapon, it can be considered its own opponent.

For a weapon that was the target of a Backbiter spell, the case seems pretty clear to me: the wielder of a backbiting weapon has not intention of hitting themselves and is not even aware of the possibility until it happened. The "IFF" relation of the wielder does not change and while creatures are considered allies of themselves, creatures are not their own opponents per default.
Since the first condition of the effect of a vicious weapon, hitting an opponent, is not fulfilled, a backbiting vicious weapon would deal NO additional damage.


For Death Urge things are different: the target is comepelled to end its own life. Does that mean it consideres itself as an opponent? Maybe.
If we say "yes" that we would have to decide if the disrupting energy if the vicious weapon actually can resonate "between" the same creature in a damaging way.
I have no clear-cut answer for this. My inclination would be to say "yes, vicious applies in the case of Death Urge" and have it deal additional 3d6 damage. I would probably put this question up for discussion with my players if the situation would ever arise.

[Seward]

1. 3d6+weapon damage from all other sources, although if you are somehow resistant to Vicious damage (I don't know of any way, but if you were) the 2d6 from weapon and 1d6 from damage to self would probably be 2 different things.

2. The edge condition I ran into was a Merciful Vicious weapon. Does it do nonlethal to the wielder? Is the vicious damage to the enemy nonlethal? (it is usually both or neither) Only your GM can say for sure.

3. There is probably some effect or other where wounding yourself for a larger amount gives you more power. Scrawny wizards might need a vicious dagger and value that extra d6.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well if we're going to take the description literally and say that it needs destructive energy to resonate between two beings to operate, then it can't work when you hit yourself at all. There's no way for anything to come between you and yourself.

[Seward]

There's no way for anything to come between you and yourself.

Mmm...yes and no.

Depends how the power transmits. The weapon itself might be the conduit, inflicting the damage where the striking edge hits, and drawing more damage from the appendage that holds it, with the resonance happening in the weapon itself.

[Darg]

Vicious: When a vicious weapon strikes an opponent, it creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder. Only melee weapons can be vicious.

Vicious doesn't do anything to you. You are not your opponent when you made the attack. If you attack an ally to wake them from sleep, it doesn't do damage because your ally isn't your opponent.

[Unavenger]

The trigger condition is when you hit an opponent, as others have said. If you're attacking one creature, and through whatever means hit another creature, then that creature may also be your opponent, such as if an enemy uses an ability to redirect an attack meant for another enemy to themself; if you're attacking a creature against your will, they may also be your opponent, such as if you are confused. However, it is also possible that for whatever reason you hit an ally, or yourself, with an attack not meant for them, or that you didn't intend to make at all. In this case, the creature is not your opponent and the vicious property does nothing.