Relative Strength of Spell Lists?

[Maat Mons]

Can anyone give me a brief rundown on how the Shaman and Witch spell lists stack up against the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell lists? And maybe also how the Psychic spell list stacks up against the Oracle and Sorcerer spell lists?

[Kurald Galain]

What level are you at?

Off the top of my head, I'd say Wizard/sorc > Druid > Psychic > Witch > Cleric/orac > Shaman.

[Maat Mons]

This isn't for a particular game. I am joining a 7th-level game soon, but I've already decided on playing an Arcanist in that, so this thread isn't going to influence any decisions there.

Druid beats out Cleric? In 3.5, I always thought of Cleric as having the stronger spell list between the two. Did Pathfinder substantially buff the Druid spell list?

[Jervis]

This isn't for a particular game. I am joining a 7th-level game soon, but I've already decided on playing an Arcanist in that, so this thread isn't going to influence any decisions there.

Druid beats out Cleric? In 3.5, I always thought of Cleric as having the stronger spell list between the two. Did Pathfinder substantially buff the Druid spell list?

More accurate to say that they nerfed the clerics. A lot of their popular show stoppers are weaker now. Most notable example being Divine Power's nerf to a worse haste.

[Psyren]

Can anyone give me a brief rundown on how the Shaman and Witch spell lists stack up against the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell lists? And maybe also how the Psychic spell list stacks up against the Oracle and Sorcerer spell lists?

That's a fairly tall order, they got hundreds of spells apiece across years of splats. I'd tentatively +1 Kurald's ranking, though personally I'd bump Psychic over Witch.

[Gnaeus]

I'd put druid quite a bit below that. The nerf to summon nature's ally is a big hit IMO (removed a lot of the better casting creatures like unicorns, and put the animals on the same level as the summon monster list except worse because at least summon monster gets a template). I wouldn't put druid above cleric on that scale. I also don't see the nerf to divine power et al as being as significant as the loss of spells like enhanced wild shape.

We haven't seen a psychic (only the 6level psychic casters like occultist and spiritualist) so no opinion on them.

[Kurald Galain]

And while we're on the subject, I'd argue

C.Summoner > Magus > Bard/skald > Hunter > U.Summoner > Mesmerist > Inquisitor > Alchemist/investigator > Occultist > Warpriest > Spiritualist.

(where partial casters fall between full casters is largely dependent on which level you're playing at)



I'd tentatively +1 Kurald's ranking, though personally I'd bump Psychic over Witch.
Fair point.

[Psyren]

We haven't seen a psychic (only the 6level psychic casters like occultist and spiritualist) so no opinion on them.

Psychic is equal with Witch for teleportation (DD/Teleport/PS) but better at conjuring (they get SM like witches do, but also get Planar Ally, Planar Binding, and Gate), control (wall spells + forcecage), and get other standouts like Maze, Time Stop, Wish etc. With Patron spells the Witch gets closer but with the base witch list I'd say they are definitely behind,

[Gnaeus]

Psychic is equal with Witch for teleportation (DD/Teleport/PS) but better at conjuring (they get SM like witches do, but also get Planar Ally, Planar Binding, and Gate), control (wall spells + forcecage), and get other standouts like Maze, Time Stop, Wish etc. With Patron spells the Witch gets closer but with the base witch list I'd say they are definitely behind,

I believe you. In another context I'd say something about hexes and how I feel playground tends to underpower them. But if comparing lists I'm sure you are correct. I just didn't want to act like I was endorsing that position when honestly I've never played with one or built one.

[Jack_Simth]

And while we're on the subject, I'd argue

C.Summoner > Magus > Bard/skald > Hunter > U.Summoner > Mesmerist > Inquisitor > Alchemist/investigator > Occultist > Warpriest > Spiritualist.

(where partial casters fall between full casters is largely dependent on which level you're playing at)



Fair point.

The "chained" Summoner's casting setup is a low-end tier-2, yes, and that puts it over the Tier-3 casters.

[AnonymousPepper]

IMO Inquisitor needs to be lower on that list.

I love Inquisitor, it's one of my favorite classes in the game, but it gets absolutely horrid spells in a lot of ways. There's a few goodies in there, but in most regards it's a Cleric - already arguably the worst or second worst T1 list - that gets its spells later on two counts. That is to say, there are Cleric spells that are a lower spell level on the Cleric list than they are on the Inquisitor list on top of Inquisitor having the slower 2/3 progression. Had Inquisitor merely gotten "uses the Cleric and Paladin list with all Paladin spells except Litany of X one level higher unless they also appear on the Cleric list" instead of getting the weird gimped combination list it ended up getting, it'd have been a much, much better class. And don't get me started on it not getting domain spell access.

[Gnaeus]

I'm not even sure what the occultist rating means. Their overall list is fantastic, with most of the spells I'd want as a Sor/Wiz (1-6). I'm assuming that the low rating assumes a low level so few schools available, and maybe also the interpretation that only spells known are on their list (a valid but not imo the only valid reading of how spells not selected but from selected schools are intended to work)

[Chaos Jackal]

Honestly, it's difficult to rate the 6th-level caster lists, more difficult than doing the same for the full casters, because of what you'll ultimately try to use them for. It's not enough to have a spell in your list after all, you need to get mileage out of it. And you can't really do everything at the same time with the 6th-level casters, so their direction will matter a lot.

Chained Summoner is the exception. Getting so many (and good) spells at earlier levels alongside the summon monster SLAs places it clearly ahead of all the other 6th-level casters.

[Faily]

I'd personally disagree with placing Witch over Cleric/Oracle, but that could also come down to playstyles and preferences as in my experience the Witch suffered from lacking some utility and defenses that I would have expected from it. (I also have major love for Cleric, so I fully admit my bias)


For me the greatest strength of Witch was the Hexes.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AnonymousPepper
I love Inquisitor, it's one of my favorite classes in the game, but it gets absolutely horrid spells in a lot of ways.

As it happens, I was just looking at Inquisitor last night and thinking how bland and uninviting it seemed.

What about it do you love?

[Elvensilver]

To give some numbers: How many spells (including ones from adventure paths etc.) are on each class' spell list?

Shaman 667
Druid 792
Psychic 1101
Oracle 1129
Cleric 1143
Witch 1193
Sorcerer 1885
(Arcanist 1892)
Wizard 1897

This, of course, does not indicate anything about the relative strength of the spell-lists.
For that, I would also rate Witch below Cleric - The cleric has all this defensive spells, and the witch does not even get basics like Endure Elements. And while these may not be the strongest spells, they certainly increase the odds of survival.

[Wintermoot]

As it happens, I was just looking at Inquisitor last night and thinking how bland and uninviting it seemed.

What about it do you love?

I had a lot of fun playing an inquisitor the one time I did it, but I would admit some worry about doing it twice. once you've been there, you've been there. Not a lot of newness to be had.

What did I love?

The Bane Juggling between different enemies. I ended up with a sweet housemade shield and mace combo so I used double bane to amp up the damage and had some extra bane rounds per day from feats and equipment. It was easy to do as much damage or more than the front line fighters.

Going through all the teamwork feats with a fine tooth comb and making a big worksheet to maximize benefits in different situations with the solo tactics ability to swap out your last teamwork feat for any teamwork feat as needed.

a bunch of the little bonuses, like +wis mod to identify monsters and +wis to initiative and detecting alignment/discerning lies made for fun social encounters.

Some fun Inquisitor only spells like blistering invective and shield of wings. Shield of wings became the favorite spell of the group.

So it was a ton of fun, but I think once you go to the well, you probably don't want to go back again. Unlike some higher end classes, there isn't a ton of customization beyond the base model. Also, the campaign only went to 12th level I think so didn't try it at high levels.

[Arkain]

As it happens, I was just looking at Inquisitor last night and thinking how bland and uninviting it seemed.

What about it do you love?

The way I see it, Inquisitor is a somewhat more martially inclined jack of all trades. Think a divine bard, but more offensive. Lots of class skills and skill points allow for builds going in many directions and whilst the spell list may seem a bit intense of the usual priest stuff, it also offers some spells you may not expect from a divine caster, such as Invisibility. So what you end up with is a class you can develop in quite a few different ways even before archetypes come in (many of which I find fabulous), which is just as well, as it supports various playstyles and roleplaying ideas. You could be a covert agent of a deity of either end of the alignment spectrum, maybe using some of the more torturous spells if you're leaning towards evil. Be a divine assassin of Norgorber or openly wear your faith on the sleeve and be more of a people person, bringing the faith to local taverns. Though it's always a bit more martially inclined, I found the class to support lots of concepts and once I realized that (which took a good while), I came to really enjoy it. Unfortunately, it does take a while to get going, roughly levels 5-6 in my estimation, though come level 4 you usually get something fancy every level, which is also something to look forward to.

That isn't to say you couldn't realize such concepts with a Cleric, for example. Where the Inquisitor shines is doing many things at once, such as fighting well, being a bit of a skillmonkey and a support caster. If you're not into this hybrid class playstyle, it might not be for you.

[Kurald Galain]

I love Inquisitor, it's one of my favorite classes in the game, but it gets absolutely horrid spells in a lot of ways.
Well of course it's a 6th-level caster, that's why I'm comparing it to other 6th-level casters and not to the cleric.

That said, inquisitor gets quite a number of good spells that (e.g.) warpriest doesn't, such as Invis, Heroism, Ear-Piercing Scream, Bloodhound, Inflict Pain, and the line of Litany spells.


This, of course, does not indicate anything about the relative strength of the spell-lists.
It kind of does, because a class with a long list is likely to have more good spells on his list.


The cleric has all this defensive spells, and the witch does not even get basics like Endure Elements.
I'm not sure what spells you refer to, but witch gets Mage Armor and False life which cleric doesn't have; both get Defending Bone and Remove Curse; and neither get Barkskin or Displacement. So I'm not seeing how this is an advantage of the cleric. Endure Elements is not a good example, as it can largely be duplicated by mundane clothing.

[Psyren]

I believe you. In another context I'd say something about hexes and how I feel playground tends to underpower them. But if comparing lists I'm sure you are correct. I just didn't want to act like I was endorsing that position when honestly I've never played with one or built one.

Sorry if I came off didactic there, just wanted to show my work :smallsmile:



Going through all the teamwork feats with a fine tooth comb and making a big worksheet to maximize benefits in different situations with the solo tactics ability to swap out your last teamwork feat for any teamwork feat as needed.


While I'm sure you can optimize these, I'm more inclined to just use Preacher or Spellbreaker etc. to dump the lot of them and not think about it, myself.



a bunch of the little bonuses, like +wis mod to identify monsters and +wis to initiative and detecting alignment/discerning lies made for fun social encounters.

You can also throw in traits like Empathic Diplomat or Cunning Liar to modify your face skills with Wis instead of Cha and be a very different kind of party spokesperson.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Arkain
The way I see it, Inquisitor is a somewhat more martially inclined jack of all trades.

…Where the Inquisitor shines is doing many things at once, such as fighting well, being a bit of a skillmonkey and a support caster. If you're not into this hybrid class playstyle, it might not be for you.

Interesting, thanks; I’ll give it another look with that in mind.

Any particular archetypes you’d recommend? And/or a build you especially enjoyed?

[Arkain]

Interesting, thanks; I’ll give it another look with that in mind.

Any particular archetypes you’d recommend? And/or a build you especially enjoyed?

What Wintermoot noted about at least certain aspects remaining similar may be worth thinking about, but that's where some of the archetypes come in. So far I only had the opportunity to play a vanilla Inquisitor through mostly low levels, but that was quite a bit of fun. In terms of archetypes, I feel some standouts are Monster Tactician (get Summon Monster SLA kinda like a Summoner, summons also profit from your teamwork feats), Sacred Huntsmaster (get stuff from Hunter, like animal focus and a pet), Sanctified Slayer (get Slayer stuff, ideal for assassin styled characters and, oddly enough, casting focused builds) and Ravener Hunter (trade domain for an Oracle mystery, no curse). There are also really quirky ones that may be more NPC material like the very specialized ones except in those special campaigns (e.g. Abolisher or Faith Hunter). What I find kinda fun looking if Living Grimoire where you become perpared int based with a spellbook that also serves as your holy weapon with which you bludgeon infidels - wouldn't be feel out of place in Warhammer, I think. Some just offer minor alterations, like Preacher and Tactical Leader who are a bit more team focused. So yeah, I'd say there's some variety to be found.

[Kurald Galain]

Any particular archetypes you’d recommend?
Expulsionist is very nice in any campaign likely to feature evil outsiders (which is, well, most campaigns :smallcool: )