Talisman: It's pretty good

[J-H]

I haven't seen much description of the Warlock Talisman pact boon...maybe I missed it. The goofy art in Tasha's certainly didn't help sell it. I know I see it discussed a lot less than Chain or Hexblade... possibly because its power depends partly on being a team player rather than single-character optimization.


I took another look at it last night for a character for a theoretical game though, and it's pretty good, if you're willing to spend invocations on it. Give your talisman to the party tank or off-tank - someone who's going to get hit a lot. The first two are also pretty handy for a Hexblade, boosting Concentration and knocking enemies off you.

Rebuke of the Talisman: As a reaction by you while you stand safely in the back (but within 30'), someone who hits your talisman-wearer takes PB psychic damage and gets shoved 10' away from the wearer. Try to get your amulet-wearer to put an enemy between himself and a pit/lava/cliff/acid pool/Entangle/Spike growth, and then use that no-save shove. Note that it's "an attacker" so you can even use this on a non-melee attacker, like an archer or wizard, as long as they're within 30' of you.

Protection of the Talisman: +1d4 on a failed save, PB uses/day, by the wearer. Makes your barbarian/melee cleric/whatever less likely to get crowd-controlled. Stacks with bless. I think this would also apply to death saving throws, too. There aren't as many ways to boost those.

Bond of the Talisman: Teleport anywhere on the same plane. Give this to the one guy going in on recon or making a diversionary attack by himself, or use it yourself if you're the one sneaking somewhere (at high levels, you may have Invisibility at will). Turn the party monk invisible and Hasted and have him Step of the Wind (triple dash) at, if my math is near correct, something like 480'/rd to get a macguffin or grapple a single target, then teleport back to you along with everything he's carrying. PB uses/day.
Arguably, you teleport with whatever you're carrying, so maybe you can carry a party member along to make this like Dimension Door. If I was the DM, I'd limit it to "who you can carry within the amount allowed by your strength score" to avoid clown-car-carrying teleportation.

[Unoriginal]

I haven't seen much description of the Warlock Talisman pact boon...maybe I missed it. The goofy art in Tasha's certainly didn't help sell it. I know I see it discussed a lot less than Chain or Hexblade... possibly because its power depends partly on being a team player rather than single-character optimization.


I took another look at it last night for a character for a theoretical game though, and it's pretty good, if you're willing to spend invocations on it. Give your talisman to the party tank or off-tank - someone who's going to get hit a lot. The first two are also pretty handy for a Hexblade, boosting Concentration and knocking enemies off you.

Rebuke of the Talisman: As a reaction by you while you stand safely in the back (but within 30'), someone who hits your talisman-wearer takes PB psychic damage and gets shoved 10' away from the wearer. Try to get your amulet-wearer to put an enemy between himself and a pit/lava/cliff/acid pool/Entangle/Spike growth, and then use that no-save shove. Note that it's "an attacker" so you can even use this on a non-melee attacker, like an archer or wizard, as long as they're within 30' of you.

Protection of the Talisman: +1d4 on a failed save, PB uses/day, by the wearer. Makes your barbarian/melee cleric/whatever less likely to get crowd-controlled. Stacks with bless. I think this would also apply to death saving throws, too. There aren't as many ways to boost those.

Bond of the Talisman: Teleport anywhere on the same plane. Give this to the one guy going in on recon or making a diversionary attack by himself, or use it yourself if you're the one sneaking somewhere (at high levels, you may have Invisibility at will). Turn the party monk invisible and Hasted and have him Step of the Wind (triple dash) at, if my math is near correct, something like 480'/rd to get a macguffin or grapple a single target, then teleport back to you along with everything he's carrying. PB uses/day.
Arguably, you teleport with whatever you're carrying, so maybe you can carry a party member along to make this like Dimension Door. If I was the DM, I'd limit it to "who you can carry within the amount allowed by your strength score" to avoid clown-car-carrying teleportation.

I think the "if you're willing to spend invocations on it" part is key on why people don't talk about it much.

By itself, Pact of the Talisman is the weakest/least useful of all the pacts by a wide margin, and all the pacts have invocations improving them.

That's not to say Pact of the Talisman is never useful, with or without invocation.

[elyktsorb]

possibly because its power depends partly on being a team player

I think it's neat but it's also a thing where you can't exactly plan to benefit other people without some level of planning among them as well.

There's also this idea to me that it's more fun to make a character as is, and if synergies arise between party members after the fact, it's more rewarding than if I purposely made a character with the intention of being someone who could help them.

[stoutstien]

I think one problem is the pack of the tome also got a lot of nice support invocations in Tasha so talisman just doesn't do enough to pull ahead let alone catch up from being a fairly bland stand alone pact. It's serviceable but the last thing we need is another invocation heavy option.

[Corran]

Rebuke of the Talisman: As a reaction by you while you stand safely in the back (but within 30'), someone who hits your talisman-wearer takes PB psychic damage and gets shoved 10' away from the wearer. Try to get your amulet-wearer to put an enemy between himself and a pit/lava/cliff/acid pool/Entangle/Spike growth, and then use that no-save shove. Note that it's "an attacker" so you can even use this on a non-melee attacker, like an archer or wizard, as long as they're within 30' of you.
I think the short range kills it. To make it less situational (which you kind of have to if you are spending an invocation for it), you need both help from allies/DM (create hazzards, attention to environment) and to make yourself tough/mobile/stealthy/whatever enough to stick within 30' of potential targets (that someone else is tanking).

If it stopped movement after the push it would be a great invocation for warlock defense, but alas, that's not the case.


Protection of the Talisman: +1d4 on a failed save, PB uses/day, by the wearer. Makes your barbarian/melee cleric/whatever less likely to get crowd-controlled. Stacks with bless. I think this would also apply to death saving throws, too. There aren't as many ways to boost those.
This is good, I like it. Not enough to make you take this pact on its own though.


Bond of the Talisman: Teleport anywhere on the same plane. Give this to the one guy going in on recon or making a diversionary attack by himself, or use it yourself if you're the one sneaking somewhere (at high levels, you may have Invisibility at will). Turn the party monk invisible and Hasted and have him Step of the Wind (triple dash) at, if my math is near correct, something like 480'/rd to get a macguffin or grapple a single target, then teleport back to you along with everything he's carrying. PB uses/day.
Arguably, you teleport with whatever you're carrying, so maybe you can carry a party member along to make this like Dimension Door. If I was the DM, I'd limit it to "who you can carry within the amount allowed by your strength score" to avoid clown-car-carrying teleportation.
Fun and decent out of combat uses (as you said, it's a good safety net for when scouting, though it's hardly the only thing you can count on at this level), great if you consider splitting the party when and for how long it might be worrth it. But during combat it's a bit antisynergistic with the rebuke invocation. So if you are handing the talisman to a melee ally to make the most of rebuke, then the best combat use of bond is to get that ally out when things get nasty (and you probably need a round to set this up, so that you can create some distance as you are within 30' of what is hurting your ally at that point). Not great. Better combat uses if you've got two or more squishies in the party (incuding you), in which case you are only counting on one to maintain a safe-ish position (so long as the other squishy doesn't get droppped in a single turn). Not great, but better. Though if you are doing that you are probably not doing the rebuke thing.



I think the "if you're willing to spend invocations on it" part is key on why people don't talk about it much.

By itself, Pact of the Talisman is the weakest/least useful of all the pacts by a wide margin, and all the pacts have invocations improving them.

That's not to say Pact of the Talisman is never useful, with or without invocation.
I think blade is worse (talking about just the pact). Because blade does not really work by itself. Or at least what it gives you is far worse than a boost to ability checks IMO. I could live with the bonus to ability checks if it had some more interesting invocations (or more likely a really good invocation) down the line. Though I do value ability checks so I may be a little biased here.

[Dork_Forge]

I think blade is worse (talking about just the pact). Because blade does not really work by itself. Or at least what it gives you is far worse than a boost to ability checks IMO. I could live with the bonus to ability checks if it had some more interesting invocations (or more likely a really good invocation) down the line. Though I do value ability checks so I may be a little biased here.

Blade allows you to create a weapon that you're then proficient with, on a class that just gets simple weapons. That's pretty essential for going the Gish route unless you want to limit yourself to a staff or dagger. It also means you'll never be without a weapon, get captured, sneak into a fancy function etc. you can always have whatever weapon you need, and it even works with magic weapons you find.

The Talisman on the other hand is the only pact to be so severely limited in uses (prof per day) and isn't a straight bonus to ability checks, as it only triggers on a fail. This makes it useless for initiative and any checks where your DM uses a sliding scale of success instead of pass/fail.

[Corran]

Blade allows you to create a weapon that you're then proficient with, on a class that just gets simple weapons.
On a class that gets EB too. If you dont support blade pact with invocations then the weapon proficiency does not mean all that much. I think it's less good than a bonus to checks, because a warlock will rely more on checks than on a weapon proficiency. Which brings me to my point. Talisman's base value is not as bad as blade's, but you cannot build on it as much as you can build on the blade pact.


That's pretty essential for going the Gish route unless you want to limit yourself to a staff or dagger.
Yep. You'll need a lot of invocation and feat/multiclass/subclass support to pull it off, but it's doable.


It also means you'll never be without a weapon, get captured, sneak into a fancy function etc. you can always have whatever weapon you need, and it even works with magic weapons you find.Definitely my favourite part about blade pact, but only situationaly useful IME. Not enough to make the pact powerful on its own.


The Talisman on the other hand is the only pact to be so severely limited in uses (prof per day) and isn't a straight bonus to ability checks, as it only triggers on a fail. This makes it useless for initiative and any checks where your DM uses a sliding scale of success instead of pass/fail.
Wasn't thinking about initiative but good point.
Not sure why it would be useless if the DM is using a sliding scale of success/failure though. Wouldn't it be more useful then, since failure by more than k*X leads to outcomes worse than simply not suceeding?

[Chaos Jackal]

"If you're willing to spend invocations on it" would be a good point in Talisman's favor... if it actually offered something more compared to spending invocations on the other pacts.

So, Talisman starts off badly by being the only pact that offers limited uses of its baseline feature. Blade may or may not have a weaker effect, but at least it's always on; no matter where, when or what, you can summon a weapon. Talisman only works for the one that wears the item, is limited in its usage cases (far from all ability checks are success/failure), and, perhaps more embarrassingly, can have its effect copied for the most part by another pact, namely Tome if you pick guidance as one of your cantrips. Sure, guidance doesn't have the reactive part in case the check takes you by surprise or happens because of something like a grapple, but it otherwise has unlimited uses and can be applied to any ability check. And you get two extra cantrips for free.

Then you've got the invocation investment part as well as the "team player vs personal power" issue.

Blade, even if it had no baseline ability at all, would still be good with invocation investment because, if you wanna gish, everything's behind Blade, be it Extra Attack, nova or Cha to damage (Hexblade eventually did that too, but Lifedrinker's still great anyway). It's a selfish pact, yes, it's all about you hitting things, but it's for a specific playstyle and as far as that playstyle is concerned, Blade is a must, so Blade's invocation investment has high returns.

Chain also has a few decent picks, and despite being "selfish" in theory it actually offers a ton of party power; you can help your party a lot by properly utilizing your familiar and Voice of the Chain Master takes that further, Gift of the Ever-Living Ones is excellent for managing healing resources and Investment of the Chain Master is a case of personal power, but at least it's a pretty good one. Overall, the invocation investment has pretty good returns and the pact itself, while maybe a bit selfish, definitely does something for your teammates other than hitting stuff better than them.

Tome has absolutely massive utility and party support through Book of Ancient Secrets alone, because being able to learn every ritual in the game does wonders for your party, not just your personal character power. It offers a lot of out-of-combat options, takes burdens off characters and even aids in the case of non-wizard preparation; nobody ever needs to worry and consider preparing (or worse, learning) a ritual when the warlock can just cast them all. But since that was apparently not enough, you can add free death ward for all your party every day without using slots through the more recently printed Gift of the Protectors, because why not? Invocation investment is excellent, and the pact itself is quite support-oriented; sure, you're doing stuff yourself, but you're really coming through for the party with the benefits you gain.

Compared to these, Talisman really has little to offer. Protection of the Talisman is fine but not amazing due to the boost being limited to only one person every time and the rather small number added and Rebuke of the Talisman has bad damage, bad range and takes a reaction to use. Bond of the Talisman is good if leveraged properly, but it's not enough on its own. So invocation investment isn't actually that high in returns, and the "team player" part is in fact kinda limiting here, because instead of being able to help your team without hindrances you can only ever do so for one person at a time.

And one last point. You basically need all of the Talisman invocations, or at least two of them, to start gaining some mileage out of the pact, and said mileage isn't great. The only other pact that requires similar investment is Blade, but at least there, as mentioned earlier, your returns are very high, because you're augmenting a very specific playstyle. And both Chain and Tome start off with a far better baseline, arguably do more with one invocation than Talisman, and blow it out of the water with two. So not only isn't Talisman alone in returning invocation investment, it's actually the worst at it, or at least far from the best.

So, you have the weakest or one of the weakest baseline effects, alongside the worst or one of the worst returns for your invocation investment, and if you wanna call party support/utility Talisman's niche, you're not even the best at that. Your "greater teamwork" is also an illusion; passing the item around and limiting its effects to the wearer is a burden, not a boon.

Seen alone, Talisman might be OK. But D&D is a game of options and comparisons. And when compared to all your other pact options, Talisman is just not good.


Not sure why it would be useless if the DM is using a sliding scale of success/failure though. Wouldn't it be more useful then, since failure by more than k*X leads to outcomes worse than simply not suceeding?
Depends on what you consider failure.

Imagine you're rolling an Investigation check. On a 10, you find the message taped under the desk. On a 15, you also find the secret drawer. On a 20, you additionally find the button that opens the sliding library secret door.

You roll a 13. You find the message, but not the drawer or the button. Still, you arguably didn't fail. You got something out of that check. So you don't get to roll for the Talisman. If your DM considers that a failure (or you convince them to see it that way) then yes, you might get some more mileage out of the feature (though still not as much as a guidance), but I know a great many people, myself included, who wouldn't see it that way.

If it's not a straightforward "you succeed/you fail" dichotomy, things get difficult for the Talisman.

[Psyren]

Talisman is definitely not as exciting as the other Pacts but it's fine.

Rebuke is okay in a Movelock build. The push might not seem like much, but bear in mind it has no size limit, no saving throw, and no use limit - they hit the wearer and you can shove them away as a reaction. Combine with stuff like Spike Growth (Daolock) or Sickening Radiance and you can get some decent damage/benefits out of your reaction depending on where you place them. You're also typically concentrating on something as a Movelock and the Talisman helps you with that.

Protection is the best invocation of the three (though still not amazing.)

I'm actually fine wearing the Talisman myself and not bothering with the Bond invocation, or at the very least picking it up much later once I have al the others I want.

[Dork_Forge]

On a class that gets EB too. If you dont support blade pact with invocations then the weapon proficiency does not mean all that much. I think it's less good than a bonus to checks, because a warlock will rely more on checks than on a weapon proficiency. Which brings me to my point. Talisman's base value is not as bad as blade's, but you cannot build on it as much as you can build on the blade pact.

I mean, if you don't support it with invocations or spells... Eldritch Blast is not a good cantrip. Where as you could also say: On a class that gets Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade.


Yep. You'll need a lot of invocation and feat/multiclass/subclass support to pull it off, but it's doable.

You don't need anything but invocations to make Bladelock work well.


Definitely my favourite part about blade pact, but only situationaly useful IME. Not enough to make the pact powerful on its own.

No, the power is essentially a floating a proficiency and that's a bonus imo


Wasn't thinking about initiative but good point.
Not sure why it would be useless if the DM is using a sliding scale of success/failure though. Wouldn't it be more useful then, since failure by more than k*X leads to outcomes worse than simply not suceeding?

A sliding scale means no clear point of failure a lot of the time. No clear point of failure means no trigger for the ability to activate.

[Rukelnikov]

I mean, if you don't support it with invocations or spells... Eldritch Blast is not a good cantrip. Where as you could also say: On a class that gets Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade.

Eldritch Blast is top tier damage dealing cantrip even without invocations, the bladetrips are the only comparable ones but you need to be in melee range.

[Corran]

Depends on what you consider failure.

Imagine you're rolling an Investigation check. On a 10, you find the message taped under the desk. On a 15, you also find the secret drawer. On a 20, you additionally find the button that opens the sliding library secret door.

You roll a 13. You find the message, but not the drawer or the button. Still, you arguably didn't fail. You got something out of that check. So you don't get to roll for the Talisman. If your DM considers that a failure (or you convince them to see it that way) then yes, you might get some more mileage out of the feature (though still not as much as a guidance), but I know a great many people, myself included, who wouldn't see it that way.

If it's not a straightforward "you succeed/you fail" dichotomy, things get difficult for the Talisman.
Fair. But consider the opposite scenario, where instead of succeeding more you can fail more. You try to pick a lock, and the DC is 15. Fail by 5 or more and you break the lockpicking tool. Fail by 10 or more and you jam the lock. I mean, if failing ability checks by 5 or more can lead to a worse consequence than simply not succeeding, isn't a check bonus better than in a game where this wouldn't be the case? I am thinking yes.


I mean, if you don't support it with invocations or spells... Eldritch Blast is not a good cantrip. Where as you could also say: On a class that gets Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade.
Eh. I mean, the ranged option is the better one cause the class operates better at range than in melee.




You don't need anything but invocations to make Bladelock work well.
You definitely need some feat support to stay on par with cantrip damage, unless we are talking about using scactrips (in which case pact of the blade is not making a big difference). You need to somehow shore up your low AC and you cannot do that with invocations (so you are either taking a feat, multiclassing, or we are talking about hexblade), with the alternative being a hit and run style (so you are then relying on something like mobile, or on a concentration spell like darkness or far step). So what you say probably holds true for a warlock using BB and far step (darkness and shadow of moil before that), but in this case pact of the blade does not offer all that much (just a +2 dpr weighted down by hit chance and the ability to summon a weapon out of thin air, which is cool but not terribly important to someone with other cantrips and with not too much attached to fighting with a weapon). Though I am trying to guess what you have in mind. What do you have in mind?




No, the power is essentially a floating a proficiency and that's a bonus imo
Sure.




A sliding scale means no clear point of failure a lot of the time. No clear point of failure means no trigger for the ability to activate.
Ok, so we are talking about multiple levels of success and/or multiple levels of failure. Even if there are checks where there is no turning point (go from "winning" to "losing" and vice versa), wont most checks have that? Not having it be a clear one, or in other words, if not everyone agress on what it should be, wouldn't you still have one after a DM ruling? At least for most checks? I dont imagine there being too many checks where you roll only to see how much you'll win, or only to see how big you'll lose. Usually both are an option. So in games where "losing" on a check can mean worse things than simply not succeeding, isn't the bonus to ability checks still precious? Depending on how hard you go on the negative consequences it might even be more precious than on a game where those (extra bad consequences) dont exist, despite not being able to use it to win more.

[Kane0]

Yeah stock Talisman feels just a touch underwhelming. Not a dealbreaker just a little underpar.

This guy has some great homebrew incovations to help though:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?638935-Myceliumnb-s-Homebrew-Eldritch-Invocations

[Warlock'sFriend]

I dig talisman for the rebuke invocation. The short range doesn't bother me since I see the warlock as a short range blaster, the shotgun of casters. They get spells like armor of agathys, shadow of moil, or arms of hadar to punish enemies that get too close.

Then when I compare it to the other pacts with their invocations, I miss out on utility but I get a whole new dimension to combat that doesn't compete with EB and can't be killed. I'm no longer rationing slots and only casting eldritch blast. Now I'm blasting and moving into position to set up for a rebuke. I've also paired mine with maddening hex so I have a consistent use for every action in a turn and have the potential to deal an extra 7 damage with no save every round.

[Dork_Forge]

Eldritch Blast is top tier damage dealing cantrip even without invocations, the bladetrips are the only comparable ones but you need to be in melee range.

Top tier how? Because it uses d10s? Because it's Force?

Force is a great damage type when all you look at is the effectiveness of that type, but it also locks you out of most of the potential bonuses you can stack on.

Needing to hit multiple times and crits remaining the same 1-20 are not 'top shelf' IMO. It's not bad in that you have multiple chances to hit, so your bottom line looks better, but it makes higher damage harder.

Then there's the whole ranged cantrips need to deal with melee opponents part.



Eh. I mean, the ranged option is the better one cause the class operates better at range than in melee.

Not really something the PC gets to control all the time, and depends on the choices you make.




You definitely need some feat support to stay on par with cantrip damage, unless we are talking about using scactrips (in which case pact of the blade is not making a big difference). You need to somehow shore up your low AC and you cannot do that with invocations (so you are either taking a feat, multiclassing, or we are talking about hexblade), with the alternative being a hit and run style (so you are then relying on something like mobile, or on a concentration spell like darkness or far step). So what you say probably holds true for a warlock using BB and far step (darkness and shadow of moil before that), but in this case pact of the blade does not offer all that much (just a +2 dpr weighted down by hit chance and the ability to summon a weapon out of thin air, which is cool but not terribly important to someone with other cantrips and with not too much attached to fighting with a weapon). Though I am trying to guess what you have in mind. What do you have in mind?

How so 'need some feat support'? The only cantrip that really compares is a loaded up EB and that isn't exactly running away from Bladelock damage, if it advances at all.

Scagtrips are nice options to have, but Thirsting Blade is generally a better choice.

I'm not sure why a Warlock much have low AC inherently, unless the mark of 'good AC' is particularly high. Just play a Dex based Warlock, with Fiendish Vigor being an excellent means to make you more than durable enough to be in melee.

If all you do is choose blade pact and the obvious supporting invocations you'll do more than well enough: Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade etc. Hex can work as a damage increase if desired and with IPW this doesn't even need to be a melee build, you can just use a longbow or heavy crossbow.

Bladelocks worked just fine before Hexblade and this work better than ever with increasing invocation and subclass choices, nevermind race options. But all that expansion/bloat is just extra, Bladelocks were competitive Gishes since the PHB released, and have only gotten better since.



Ok, so we are talking about multiple levels of success and/or multiple levels of failure. Even if there are checks where there is no turning point (go from "winning" to "losing" and vice versa), wont most checks have that? Not having it be a clear one, or in other words, if not everyone agress on what it should be, wouldn't you still have one after a DM ruling? At least for most checks? I dont imagine there being too many checks where you roll only to see how much you'll win, or only to see how big you'll lose. Usually both are an option. So in games where "losing" on a check can mean worse things than simply not succeeding, isn't the bonus to ability checks still precious? Depending on how hard you go on the negative consequences it might even be more precious than on a game where those (extra bad consequences) dont exist, despite not being able to use it to win more.


The point for me is that the entire purpose of it is to help you not fail/do badly on ability checks, yet it's very possible that you won't even be able to trigger it on some checks.

There's no reason why it had to be triggered on a fail condition instead of just letting you use it, likewise it's the only pact that's so limited yet what you get doesn't really warrant such limits. Guidance is a cantrip, favored by the Gods is straight-up better and recharges on a short rest.

The invocations are neat, but were printed alongside the tome invocations, which were just nuts.

[Chaos Jackal]

Fair. But consider the opposite scenario, where instead of succeeding more you can fail more. You try to pick a lock, and the DC is 15. Fail by 5 or more and you break the lockpicking tool. Fail by 10 or more and you jam the lock. I mean, if failing ability checks by 5 or more can lead to a worse consequence than simply not succeeding, isn't a check bonus better than in a game where this wouldn't be the case? I am thinking yes.

Oh sure, not everything on a sliding scale is off the table. But a lot are. "Add bonus on a failure" is just noticeably more restrictive than "add bonus" when talking ability checks. If it were a negligible number, I'd be willing to let it slide, but it happens too often for comfort.

[Segev]

Eldritch blast, without invocation support, is strictly superior to firebolt, which is one of the best damage cantrips out there. Yes, because of the d10s. The need to hit multiple times is not a weakness: the actual average damage is the same, just with a smoother curve due to the tendency to hit with some but not all more often than you hit with exactly one with firebolt. It is also superior because you can divide the targeting, allowing you to spread the damage around if you are hitting weak foes. Thus, you reduce overkill and achieve greater action economy advantage.

I don't know objectively if Talisman is very good. I know it always seems very underwhelming to me when I read it, though. And its effects seem...unrelated to it being a "talisman," like it could be anything. Very generic. Maybe it's supposed to be "a lucky talisman" and that's the theme?

[J-H]

I think the "if you're willing to spend invocations on it" part is key on why people don't talk about it much.

By itself, Pact of the Talisman is the weakest/least useful of all the pacts by a wide margin, and all the pacts have invocations improving them.

That's not to say Pact of the Talisman is never useful, with or without invocation.

With the exception of Chain Pact, all of the pact boons require support from a couple of invocations to be good. Chain pact still gets better with invocations, although an invisible poisonous scout is still good without it.


I think one problem is the pack of the tome also got a lot of nice support invocations in Tasha so talisman just doesn't do enough to pull ahead let alone catch up from being a fairly bland stand alone pact. It's serviceable but the last thing we need is another invocation heavy option.
Tome gives Ritual Caster and then a 1/day "you don't fall over." It's a different spin on "helps the party defensively."

Eldritch Blast is one of the best cantrips, especially since you can use invocations to add riders to slow enemies or push them. However, I'm not a huge fan of spending 2-4 out of 8 invocations on a cantrip.

One thing I like about Talisman is that it lets you deal damage with your reaction pretty reliably. Aside from Counterspell, non-melee Warlocks don't usually have anything to use their reaction on. Even in melee, the ability to knock someone who hits you away can be handy in preventing a Multiattack from going off if the attacker doesn't have movement left.


And its effects seem...unrelated to it being a "talisman," like it could be anything. Very generic. Maybe it's supposed to be "a lucky talisman" and that's the theme?
It needs to be something that doesn't take a hand; there are already lots of magic rings, including a ring as an option for the genielock, so an amulet makes sense as something that's easy to pass around between different characters. I see why they went that way.

[Segev]

It needs to be something that doesn't take a hand; there are already lots of magic rings, including a ring as an option for the genielock, so an amulet makes sense as something that's easy to pass around between different characters. I see why they went that way.

No, you miss my point. I agree with what you're saying here; I'm saying the effect of it is generic and arbitrary. What about "a talisman" says "skill check bonus, sometimes?"

[J-H]

Lucky talisman, lucky charm...maybe it's a rabbit's foot?

[Dork_Forge]

Eldritch blast, without invocation support, is strictly superior to firebolt, which is one of the best damage cantrips out there. Yes, because of the d10s. The need to hit multiple times is not a weakness: the actual average damage is the same, just with a smoother curve due to the tendency to hit with some but not all more often than you hit with exactly one with firebolt. It is also superior because you can divide the targeting, allowing you to spread the damage around if you are hitting weak foes. Thus, you reduce overkill and achieve greater action economy advantage.


If all you're looking to do is damage, then by virtue of being one of only two d10 cantrips it's up there, and in some ways, multiple attacks is a strength. It is however a weakness when it comes to getting the full amount of the cantrip's damage. If looking strictly at a FB/EB comparison:

- It's easier to get advantage on one attack, than it is on multiple

- Fire has more resistances/weaknesses than Force, but it also has vulnerabilities and other monster interactions like Fire Aversion and shutting down regeneration, not to mention that setting things on fire can be useful on its own.

- Celestial Warlock bumps FB damage, making FB the most subclass friendly of the two and most likely to have boosted damage without any invocation support

If you were looking for a straight damage cantrip without invocation investment though, Toll the Dead is easily up there if not just better in a lot of ways. Then there's the tradeoffs:

Every cantrip that does less than a d10 does an additional effect, even FB can set things on fire, but EB settles for the force type and 120ft range. So you're trading additional effects like reducing speed, disadvantage on their next attack, and locking down healing for 1 point more damage per die and force type.

Eldritch Blast is made by the supporting invocations and per hit riders you can cram onto it.



Lucky talisman, lucky charm...maybe it's a rabbit's foot?

That'd be awkward for the Harengon in the party

[Segev]

It is not, generally, easier to get advantage for one attack than several, if the several are all at once as part of the same action. The damage over time otherwise averages out the same no matter how many attacks you split or join together.

2 1d10 attacks will average to the same damage as 1 2d10 attack against the same AC. Unless you're relying on something like True Strike to get your advantage, you probably can use it for both the EB attacks.

[LudicSavant]

Eldritch blast, without invocation support, is strictly superior to firebolt,


Superior, perhaps, but strictly? That would mean there are no tradeoffs at all.

Fire Bolt can get Advantage on the entire thing from sources that augment a single attack (like familiar Help or Hiding) while Eldritch Blast can’t. Also, there are some mechanics where a lump sum of damage is better than an equivalent amount of total damage spread over multiple hits.

Fire Bolt also can target and ignite Objects.

[Ralanr]

I think one problem is the pack of the tome also got a lot of nice support invocations in Tasha so talisman just doesn't do enough to pull ahead let alone catch up from being a fairly bland stand alone pact. It's serviceable but the last thing we need is another invocation heavy option.

I don't think comparing it to the most versatile pact option is really fair, though I can't disagree with your point.

[Dork_Forge]

It is not, generally, easier to get advantage for one attack than several, if the several are all at once as part of the same action. The damage over time otherwise averages out the same no matter how many attacks you split or join together.

2 1d10 attacks will average to the same damage as 1 2d10 attack against the same AC. Unless you're relying on something like True Strike to get your advantage, you probably can use it for both the EB attacks.

Sources of advantage that would only apply to the first attack, this is not a complete list, just a grab bag off the top of my head and that come up in my games:

- Being Invisible from a number of sources, you'd become visible on the first attack

- Help Action (Familiars, Mastermind Rogues, animal companions like the Beast Master and Battle Smith)

- Guiding Bolt

- Being hidden

Not advantage, but:

-Bardic Inspiration

-Favored by the Gods

-Saving Face

Then there's situations where you may be getting advantage from a spell/ability and the first time they get hit it will either end or give them a chance to save again.

And then there's also other instances in the game where a larger lump sum is better, like damage thresholds for objects and breaking concentration where the caster has a high save mod.

[Segev]

Superior, perhaps, but strictly? That would mean there are no tradeoffs at all.

Fire Bolt can get Advantage on the entire thing from sources that augment a single attack (like familiar Help or Hiding) while Eldritch Blast can’t. Also, there are some mechanics where a lump sum of damage is better than an equivalent amount of total damage spread over multiple hits.

Fire Bolt also can target and ignite Objects.


Sources of advantage that would only apply to the first attack, this is not a complete list, just a grab bag off the top of my head and that come up in my games:

- Being Invisible from a number of sources, you'd become visible on the first attack

- Help Action (Familiars, Mastermind Rogues, animal companions like the Beast Master and Battle Smith)

- Guiding Bolt

- Being hidden

Not advantage, but:

-Bardic Inspiration

-Favored by the Gods

-Saving Face

Then there's situations where you may be getting advantage from a spell/ability and the first time they get hit it will either end or give them a chance to save again.

And then there's also other instances in the game where a larger lump sum is better, like damage thresholds for objects and breaking concentration where the caster has a high save mod.

Fair enough. I will say that the examples given are narrow and niche, even in aggregate, in actual play, so while firebolt may at times be the more optimal spell, I stand by that eldritch blast will, for must play over any long term period, be equal or superior overall.

...Talisman can't help with attack rolls, can it?

[LudicSavant]

I haven't seen much description of the Warlock Talisman pact boon...maybe I missed it. The goofy art in Tasha's certainly didn't help sell it. I know I see it discussed a lot less than Chain or Hexblade... possibly because its power depends partly on being a team player rather than single-character optimization.

Optimizers love team players. They hype up things like Peace Cleric and Lore Bard and Paladin auras and Bless all the time. So I rather doubt that's it.

So let's take a look at what Talisman offers. First, there's its default benefit, which is hampered by a rather unfortunate wording. You can only choose to use it if an ability check is failed, which means that there are a surprising number of circumstances where you can't use it all, namely...
- Any checks that aren't a binary pass/fail. What's that, getting a higher roll just means you get more or less knowledge, rather than a flat pass/fail? Then it doesn't apply. What's that, you're rolling for initiative? Then it doesn't apply. And so forth.
- Any checks that are secret. You don't KNOW that you failed your insight check to detect a lie, or your perception check to notice something hidden, or whatever, so you don't get the opportunity to choose to use it.

It's a bit of weird and janky design that sees its usefulness vary quite a bit based on meta elements like whether rolls are secret, or whether rolls use "degrees of success" vs flat pass/fail, and so on and so forth.

Still, it's roughly a +2.5 to (certain) ability checks proficiency times a day. Could be worse. But could certainly stand to be better, too. Or at the very least cleaner.

So if it's not winning on its base features, we must turn to the invocations.


Rebuke of the Talisman: As a reaction by you while you stand safely in the back (but within 30'), someone who hits your talisman-wearer takes PB psychic damage and gets shoved 10' away from the wearer. Try to get your amulet-wearer to put an enemy between himself and a pit/lava/cliff/acid pool/Entangle/Spike growth, and then use that no-save shove. Note that it's "an attacker" so you can even use this on a non-melee attacker, like an archer or wizard, as long as they're within 30' of you.

Protection of the Talisman: +1d4 on a failed save, PB uses/day, by the wearer. Makes your barbarian/melee cleric/whatever less likely to get crowd-controlled. Stacks with bless. I think this would also apply to death saving throws, too. There aren't as many ways to boost those.

Bond of the Talisman: Teleport anywhere on the same plane. Give this to the one guy going in on recon or making a diversionary attack by himself, or use it yourself if you're the one sneaking somewhere (at high levels, you may have Invisibility at will). Turn the party monk invisible and Hasted and have him Step of the Wind (triple dash) at, if my math is near correct, something like 480'/rd to get a macguffin or grapple a single target, then teleport back to you along with everything he's carrying. PB uses/day.
Arguably, you teleport with whatever you're carrying, so maybe you can carry a party member along to make this like Dimension Door. If I was the DM, I'd limit it to "who you can carry within the amount allowed by your strength score" to avoid clown-car-carrying teleportation.

Rebuke of the Talisman is nice, but limited somewhat by the fact that the enemy has to be within a rather modest range, and it needs a specific ally to be hit. Same goes for Protection of the Talisman. The teleport is okay (better than someone getting locked in a Wall of Force with no way out, to be sure), but costs an Action.

None of these are particularly bad invocations. However, they have some stiff competition indeed to deal with. Let's take the Pact of the Tome invocations.

- Learn potentially every Ritual and have them all always-prepared.
- Give a non-dispellable Death Ward-ish effect to everyone in the party. Unlike Protection of the Talisman, this is guaranteed to work, and doesn't put your eggs on one talisman-wearing basket.
- Get a bloody cell phone that casts Sending at will to anyone in your contact list.

And it's not just the Tomelock invocations that offer good choices. There's other really amazing invocations out there, like Gift of the Ever-Living Ones, or Repelling Blast. Ultimately, the Talisman invocations aren't doing a whole lot to stand out amongst that sort of competition.

[Kane0]

Three ideas for improvements:

1) Allow the base pact to add to attacks as well as ability checks, plus maybe also allow it to act as a spell focus
2) Add a low to mid level invocation that gives you a second talisman, and the wearers of the two talismans can communicate telepathically (charges of limited use abilities are shared between both)
3) Mid to high level invocation that increases the d4 to a d6 and recharges one use on a short rest