Master of the Unseen Hand - how many attacks?

[Nikker]

Hello everyone.

I have a ghost character and I was considering Master of the Unseen Hand prc.
My character is, as for now, a dual-wielding rogue and he deals a pretty ton of damage with his sneak attacks. So i was wondering if MotUH is actually useful, or. (Probably not much, I like it for the flavour tho)

The problem is that I'm confused by its level 3 class feature.
Full Attack Telekinesis (Ex): At 3rd level, a master of the unseen hand is as skilled in telekinetic combat as a fighter is with melee combat. When using the combat maneuver version of telekinesis or wielding a weapon telekinetically, the master of the unseen hand can make a full attack, potentially attacking, bull rushing, disarming, grappling, or tripping more than once per round. Just as with nontelekinetic attacks, the master of the unseen hand gains an additional attack for every 5 points of base attack bonus above +1 (using caster level for base attack bonus as described in the telekinesis spell description).

Please help. Why "bull rushing (...) more than once per round"? I get that disarming, tripping, grappling are melee attacks o parts of melee attacks, but Bull rush is a standard action, how could you bull rush more than once per round?

Other question: level 2 "Telekinetic Wielder" feature states:
Any weapon-related feats the master of the unseen hand has (such as Weapon Focus and Power Attack) do not apply when he's telekinetically wielding a weapon.
RAW sneak attack isn't a feat, am I correct thinking that this rule doesn't apply to sneak attack?

All in all, am I correct thinking that this prc doesn't grant any extra attacks? The Bull Rush matter made me wonder if the rules meant you could make you regular melee attacks and telekinetics attacks, but it's probably not so.

Thank you all

[Elves]

Bull rush is an attack like the other special attacks: "You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack)". Yes, sneak attack would apply.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho a Ring of Telekinesis is enough since you don't need to waste levels on it.

Since you are a sneak attacker, the "violent thrust" option is far more favorable for you.

The ring has a caster lvl of 9, which mean that you can thrust 9 weapons around the battlefield each round for weapon damage + sneak attack dmg.

Really, the ring only costs 75k g and is the better option since it lets you violent thrust every turn.

Hold your quiver like a heavy assault rifle and start to have fun xD

edit: Reminds me of the historical Chinese Nest of Bees (https://deadliestwarrior.fandom.com/wiki/Nest_of_Bees)weapon ^^.

[Elves]

@^ Per MIC you can customize CL. 15th CL ring of telekinesis = 125k. Of course, for custom CL would need to either craft the ring in-party or get a custom commission that might not be available on market

[Jervis]

Ghosts can kinda make it work but to anyone in the audience that just wants the CL based full attack I feel the need to shameless share some homebrew I made for the whirling blade spell. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?640739-Whirling-Mage-a-pseudo-gish-PrC-for-when-the-blades-are-whirling-(PEACH)

Basically just lets you treat your CL as BAB for whirling blade.

[Seward]

MotUU has some unfortunate rules text in its class abilities (eg, wield weapon - I think they intended to use caster stat as strength and caster level as bab, just like maneuvers but as written it says nothing about damage bonus and implies str+caster level = bab, which would lead to oddities like 4 iterative attacks at level 9 with sufficiently high stat, but no effective str bonus. It is poorly written enough you just need to get a GM call any time you intend to use that ability. At my table it works identically with maneuvers with respect to bab and effective strength, for what it is worth).

With respect to full attack maneuver, disarm, trip are explicitly attacks, bull rush is "standard action (attack)" which most folks interpret as an attack action and grapples were clarified in FAQ to be attack actions. So basically you can either hit folks with a weapon or do various maneuvers exactly as if you were a fighter doing the same thing with str=casting bonus, bab=caster level but without provoking AOOs for doing so. This one can be a bit confusing given the wording of the base TK ability (which does a single maneuver as a std action - but that's how attacks work too when you only do one), but the confusion lies in how each special attack is worded, and the rules being in 3 different places (special attacks, TK and MotUH)


I feel the need to shameless share some homebrew I made for the whirling blade spell. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?640739-Whirling-Mage-a-pseudo-gish-PrC-for-when-the-blades-are-whirling-(PEACH)

Basically just lets you treat your CL as BAB for whirling blade.

Another way to get there for whirling blade (ideally quickened and twinned because 3 is better than one) is to cast divine power via the Arcane Disciple feat. (and get +6 str for any aoo with that whirling blade weapon, plus some temp hitpoints. Having divine power running when you need it is an exercise for the player)

But as a fan of whirling blade I appreciate the effort.




Since you are a sneak attacker, the "violent thrust" option is far more favorable for you.

.

Given the volley spell ruling that nerfed sneak attack with multiple attack spells like scorching ray, at most tables sneak attack only applies once with violent thrust, where it would apply on every attack (that had a damage component) with the full attack class ability.

Not that violent thrust might not come in higher on damage overall, but it does end the TK spell and tends to need more planning to get the most out of it.




All in all, am I correct thinking that this prc doesn't grant any extra attacks? The Bull Rush matter made me wonder if the rules meant you could make you regular melee attacks and telekinetics attacks, but it's probably not so.

It does advance caster level for TK, which means more violent thrust targets till you hit the cap of 15. Using CL as BAB means more iterative attacks than you could do without TK also, if you aren't somehow fullbab with TK

But directly? No, no extra attacks.

To me the key advantage off MotUH for Violent Thrust is the L4 class ability. Caster level for bab and caster stat for damage on every violent thrust item is a massive damage upgrade, although the 4CL hit you take to get there means you are a range focused Gish, not a primary caster, by the time you have achieved it. Not that this matters if you are a ghost or using a ring of TK, but rather important for more traditional entries (and why so few go this route).

[Jervis]

Another way to get there for whirling blade (ideally quickened and twinned because 3 is better than one) is to cast divine power via the Arcane Disciple feat. (and get +6 str for any aoo with that whirling blade weapon, plus some temp hitpoints. Having divine power running when you need it is an exercise for the player)

But as a fan of whirling blade I appreciate the effort.

Thanks. Yeah i've made a ton of Whirling Blade builds. My favorite was a trickster spellthief that used a Winged Mask to get infinite spell slot recursion and funneled it all into whirling blade. The lack of a full attack meant i had to rely on the excessive use of metamagic reducers and, iirc, sneak attack shenanigans to keep up. The fact there isn't any good method of getting a whirling blade SLA made it annoying.

[Gruftzwerg]

Given the volley spell ruling that nerfed sneak attack with multiple attack spells like scorching ray, at most tables sneak attack only applies once with violent thrust, where it would apply on every attack (that had a damage component) with the full attack class ability.
I would like to quote an older post from another thread that explains very well why I dislike the "volley"/"multiple hits" rule for sneak attacks.


Yes, but you have to start digging around in old FAQs. For example, this one:

https://jtevans.kilnar.com/rpg/dnd/laenwold/addendum/DnDFAQv02152002.pdf

(It actually mentions "volleys" four times.)

Ok, so... this is mostly conjecture, but what happened was in 3.0, you could throw three shuriken with a single attack roll. This freaked out some of the designers, who didn't want rogues tearing apart ancient dragons with shuriken. So they ruled in the early 3.0 FAQs that shuriken volleys only get sneak attack on the first shuriken.

Then Tome & Blood came out, which had several {flavor} orb spells that launched multiple orbs. So you can see some rulings in 2002 trying to deal with that, basically saying that only the first orb gets sneak attack damage.

The 3.5 edition came out in 2003, and this brought Manyshot into Core. Same idea, though... multiple arrows, but sneak attack only applies to the first. The Manyshot description is the *only* place in Core that mentions "precision-based damage", which isn't mentioned or defined in any other sourcebook for several years.

Only somebody didn't like that Manyshot wasn't getting sneak attack on every arrow, and they sneak Greater Manyshot into the XPH (it has nothing to do with psionics, so... why even put it in this book?). The XPH also introduces the swift and immediate actions. This will eventually cause the designers to rethink the whole D&D action economy, but they're not quite there yet. Mostly what it does is it causes them some headaches, because Quickened powers (and also Quickend spells) are now swift actions rather than free actions... except the PHB still thinks Quickened spells are free actions.

Complete Arcane comes out in 2004, and they attempt to patch up the Quicken Spell problem and fix the {flavor} orb spells, which no longer create multiple orbs. They also attempt to codify the Tome & Blood rulings with some additional rules for Weaponlike Spells, Critical Hits, and Multiple Hits. This is where we get the "only on the first attack" codified in the rules rather than the FAQ, but it applies to all spells regardless of action type. The designers aren't quite thinking of spells in terms of the action type used to cast them yet. Shurikens work differently and the Tome & Blood rulings don't need to be in the FAQ anymore so they take the "volley" stuff out of it.

Complete Adventurer comes out in 2005 and introduces two new types of precision damage: Sudden Strike and Skirmish. There is an explosion of swift-action and immediate-action spells in new sourcebooks, and high-end optimizers are now capitalizing on action economy shenanigans. Someone thinks pouring gasoline on the action economy fire is a good idea, so they put the celerity line of spells into PHBII and arcane fusion into Complete Mage.

Complete Scoundrel is headed for print in January 2007 when one of the designers notices something... up until now, nobody has defined "precision-based damage" or how it works. They mention "precision-based damage" several times, but somehow completely fail to define it. Rules Compendium is in the works, coming out in October 2007, so they figure they can nail down the precision damage thing there... and also update the Core rules to include swift and immediate actions. The designers are also much more aware of the action economy, and they know that due to sourcebook creep there are a lot of different ways to make multiple attacks now with something other than a full-attack action. So when they got down into the weeds of nailing down how precision-based damage works, they approached it from the "what kind of action are you using" perspective. That's probably where the "you only get sneak attack on a full attack" came from. And they probably noticed at some point that the "Multiple Hits" section from Complete Arcane needed to be revised as well.

I'm not sure what happened after 2007, because a lot of the rule changes in the Rules Compendium did not make it into the Core books when they were reprinted later. There may have been pushback from some of the designers to keep Core the way it is, blemishes intact out of nostalgia or stubborn traditionalism, or maybe the editors at that time just weren't aware of some of the structural changes in the Rules Compendium. Most likely, 3.5 is nearing the end of its product line and resources are being moved into development of 4E.

by the time, they nailed the definition of Precision Damage down, the amount of options to get extra attacks outside of Full-Attacks that still qualify for sneak attacks have increased. And other areas have changed too (power creeping).

From a balancing point of view, it just makes no sense. Dmg is still the worst optimization option to rely on, and it wouldn't hurt to have some other options besides from ubercharger.

Can someone confirm if these rules are found in the reprint of the PHB? (latest up to date print of rules and thus would have supremacy)
Does anyone own a reprint (or has a pdf of it)?





Not that violent thrust might not come in higher on damage overall, but it does end the TK spell and tends to need more planning to get the most out of it.



That's why the ring is the better option imho, since you can spam the standard action to activate it all day long if you want. Spending a standard action for 9 attacks is great.

[Seward]

From a balancing point of view, it just makes no sense. Dmg is still the worst optimization option to rely on, and it wouldn't hurt to have some other options besides from ubercharger.


Dead is the best status condition.

I've made pure damage focused characters (or at least had it as a tactic to pull out when things went bad) and had no trouble outperforming folks who relied on sticking a saving through at most tables through L16. None are as crazy optimized as ubercharger, but believe me, TK with proper arcane support and objects to through is "kill things in one action" level of damage, from level 9-20. sure, only one thing, but removing an enemy from a fight is a major shift in CR for anything worth targeting. A decent archer can also be built to do that, as can pretty much any melee if he can just get a full attack off somehow (which is why it is often the best action for a batman wizard to move said melee into that situation. TK can do that too, if said melee+gear falls in weight limits and soften said target up with a dozen enchanted crossbow bolts as he arrives).

Furthermore, while I am as big a fan of "it just works" battlefield control and buff spells as the next guy, in the end somebody has to kill the dudes one by one as they stumble out of battlefield control. It doesn't make good sense to have a whole party of beatsticks, but if you lack one, your primary casters will burn a lot more spells on "boring old damage" than without them and fights will take longer and be more risky.

Two of my damage dealers were built around volley spells - scorching ray and TK, one in 3.5, the other in Pathfinder. They couldn't do sustained damage like my archers could, but their best damage dealing effects reliably just killed enemies outright (or if a single opponent, took off half their hitpoints). TK was so effective by L12+ that I didn't use its best options unless my table mix of characters was nearly offense-free or for things like battle interactives which featured campaign BBEGs that needed all the cheese a region of heroes could muster. I usually preferred to find a melee buddy to TK into position (such behavior also didn't burn through spell slots quite so fast)

Volley spells do NOT need sneak attack on every attack. They are already quite action efficient, especially once you can generally do 2 a round in higher levels with quicken, or a quicken rod or quicken SLA for our ghostly friends or more with other action economy breaking effects available in later 3.5 or pathfinder.

Regarding the ring - 9 attacks is nice, but without the arcane support (eg, chain GMW, the ability to fabricate specific stuff to specific targets, routine GMW and maybe flame arrow on ammunition, even guided shot) it'll fall far short of your typical arcane caster who qualifies for MotUH the normal way. The ghost also has that problem but at least his caster level has room to grow past 9 and ghosts get a lot off other advantages to compensate, including quicken SLA, which would add a violent thrust to the rogue's existing sneak attack TWF routine or move HIMSELF into full attack range as part of the volley....assuming you can TK an incorporeal. Hmm.

If you do allow sneak on every attack for TK, a ring of TK is basically required equipment for anybody who relies on it, as getting 9 attacks for a std action (or a full attack) is nearly impossible before epic for a rogue-type character. That kind of itemization I find problematic, in the same way the pre-nerfed "Spikes" spell (the one that lasted hour/level) cause folks to discard the weapon they had a bunch of feats invested in for a club with spikes, because it was simply mechanically better.

[Gruftzwerg]

Dead is the best status condition.

I've made pure damage focused characters (or at least had it as a tactic to pull out when things went bad) and had no trouble outperforming folks who relied on sticking a saving through at most tables through L16. None are as crazy optimized as ubercharger, but believe me, TK with proper arcane support and objects to through is "kill things in one action" level of damage, from level 9-20. sure, only one thing, but removing an enemy from a fight is a major shift in CR for anything worth targeting. A decent archer can also be built to do that, as can pretty much any melee if he can just get a full attack off somehow (which is why it is often the best action for a batman wizard to move said melee into that situation. TK can do that too, if said melee+gear falls in weight limits and soften said target up with a dozen enchanted crossbow bolts as he arrives).

...

I agree with most things you say about most real table games.

But I still claim, that optimizing for dmg/dead condition is still the easiest mechanic for a DM to handle.

It's far less problematic than (e.g.) divination spells + teleport. Because that kind of stuff can skip entire parts of the adventure. And can be achieved by simply selecting the right spells at lvl up (doesn't rely on gear = big bonus) or are handed out generally (cleric).


I'm sole speaking here from an optimization point of view: "A character optimized to kill everything on sight (and nothing else / one trick pony) is the least problem a DM might have with (highly) optimized PCs." (I'm not saying that it ain't efficient. ;) )


We live in a 3.5 world where magic beats most mundane stuff:
player A: Hey, I have maxed Gather Information. Give me a day, and I'll find out some clues about our target.
player B: But that could reveal that the target is being tracked. Let me just select the right spell tomorrow. And for now, we can stay in the tavern and keep on drinking...

[Seward]

What a lot of folks usually don't remember in these discussions is that the Tiers are mostly about plot breaking. In that respect prepared casters with big spell lists break plots a lot more, even if their lower tier buddies are getting all the kills. Tier 2 might or might not break plots, usually can by higher levels just by accretion of spells known in cases of things like Sorcerers, but at least the GM knows what the party has going without worrying they'll shift their spell mix overnight and radically change what the party can do.

So what makes a wizard or cleric or druid top of the tier heap is plot breaking, not combat capability. a lot more encounters are "broken" by the high damage dealers, who can execute the enemy mid-monologue with a single charge or volley. This can lead to confusion in these discussions. Sometimes Tier 1 prep casters are the ones that trivialize an encounter, but that is heavily situational on whether they guessed right (or got lucky) about what was going to happen after they prepped spells. Damage is required and useful in pretty much every combat encounter, and as another poster noted, taking damage, shrugging, and ending your enemy can also make you feel pretty badass (or look that way to your party members).

Yes, most (but not all) martial beatsticks have less to do in noncombat encounters, although most have a role to play outside combat (scout or diplomat or trapfinder or pack mule or something) and while yes, spells can often simulate what they can do, their actions burn no resources and free prep casters to make other choices when memorizing spells. But their competence outside off combat doesn't normally rise to the level off teleportation or commune for breaking plots, so it tends to get discounted and ignored in these discussions, even if at the table, their player feels just as integral to the team as the tier 1 player.

Circling back to the OP's question, OP was optimizing damage dealing and wanted to know if MotUH was useful. The answer is "yes, but only a bit for a ghost-TWF-rogue using a SLA). Full attack TK might clock in at higher effective bab, but probably won't keep up with TWF. It could be damn helpful if he has a sneak attack opportunity at range and does that instead of making only a move+attack. Violent Thrust TK won't normally be a superior option, as sneak only applies once and he can't stack a bunch of effects on the objects like a full caster would do, and L4 MotUH might not be as good for him as it is for a half-bab full caster with a gigantic brain or godlike magnetic personality.

TK though? Great choice on an incorporeal rogue. Especially one that might be able to hurl himself with his own violent thrust (ghosts have a fully material body on the etherial plane - it could be a way to set up that blender attack if he picks up quicken SLA)