What is the duration of spells cast by a CL 0 caster?

[Max Caysey]

Assuming I'm level 1 specialist wizard, but I have taken a trait, that reduced my caster level in all but my specialized school of magic (Spellgifted), what happens now, when I cast mage armor that has 1 hour/level? Does it simple wink out immediately or can't I cast it at all or what?

Cheers!

[Tzardok]

If your caster level is reduced to 0, you can't cast. So if your caster level in regards to spells of other schools is reduced, you can't cast spells of other schools.

[Rebel7284]

The more general rules are that to cast a spell your caster level must be high enough to cast a spell of that level.

The rules say this in multiple places, and yet NEVER define what that minimum caster level actually is. There are ways to deduce what they meant for a Wizard, but there are many cases where it's anyone's guess (Ur priest? Epic paladin?)

Regardless of how an individual DM arbitrates this weird hole in the rules, 0 is probably too low a caster level to cast.

[Vaern]

RAW, you wouldn't be able to cast the spell. I'd say that you could probably try casting it anyway, knowing full well that it won't work, but it would only result in the spell fizzling and the spell slot being expended to no effect.

[Tzardok]

Of course they define it. Minimum caster level of a given spell is the caster level your class gets access to that spell first. Wizards get access to 2nd level spells at 3rd level, hence the minimum caster level for a 2nd level wizard spell is 3. Paladins get access to 2nd level spells at 8th class level, and their caster level is half their class level, so the minimum caster level for 2nd level paladin spells is 4. (I said level so often, it stopped looking like a word. :smallsigh:)
Just because there are weird edge cases like the ur-priest doesn't mean their isn't a general definition.

[Rebel7284]

Of course they define it. Minimum caster level of a given spell is the caster level your class gets access to that spell first. Wizards get access to 2nd level spells at 3rd level, hence the minimum caster level for a 2nd level wizard spell is 3. Paladins get access to 2nd level spells at 8th class level, and their caster level is half their class level, so the minimum caster level for 2nd level paladin spells is 4. (I said level so often, it stopped looking like a word. :smallsigh:)
Just because there are weird edge cases like the ur-priest doesn't mean their isn't a general definition.

That is the most common sense interpretation, sure. But
a) It's never explicitly defined.
b) What's the minimum caster level of Paladin 5th level spells? They get access to it whenever they can take Improved Spell Capacity.

[Darg]

That is the most common sense interpretation, sure. But
a) It's never explicitly defined.
b) What's the minimum caster level of Paladin 5th level spells? They get access to it whenever they can take Improved Spell Capacity.

Epic paladin specifically spells out that you don't progress your casting any further. Feats are designed to make exceptions to the general rules. Paladins don't have 5-9th level spells to cast so the point is moot.

The 3.5 PHB cut out a little extra text:


CASTER LEVEL

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which is generally equal to your class level. For example, a fireball deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 10d6), so a 10th-level wizard can cast a more powerful fireball than a 5th-level wizard can.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball). Hennet, a sorcerer, can’t cast a fireball with a caster level lower than 6th (the minimum level required for a sorcerer to cast fireball).

If we take the roots, understand that they didn't change the rule, we can then extrapolate that each class has a minimum caster level equal to the levels at which they receive the spells. It is literally a copy paste job to the 3.5 PHB minus the bolded sentence.

[Rebel7284]

I was not familiar with the 3.0 example, it certainly adds some clarity about the designer's intent!

As for Epic paladins not having access to 5th level spells, there are enough ways to add extra spells to a spell list, such as any prestige class that adds a domain that this question is not moot at all!

Still, the RAI from 3.0 helps with many other cases, so that's good :)

[Darg]

Considering the feat is an exception to the rule about gaining access to the spell level, the simplest understanding would be to have it at the level the character gained the feat as it is an amorphous progression.

On the whole, epic stuff is less air tight than the 1-20 rules they are based on.

[ShurikVch]

Why not play it straight? Your CL is 0? OK, your spell does 0d6 damage, or/and lasts 0 rounds(/minutes/hours/days/etc)
More problematic might be negative CL :smallamused:

Also, even if we decide the 0 is "too low to cast" as is - then how about various methods to boost your effective CL on cast (like Liquid Pain for evil spells)?

[Vaern]

Why not play it straight? Your CL is 0? OK, your spell does 0d6 damage, or/and lasts 0 rounds(/minutes/hours/days/etc)
More problematic might be negative CL :smallamused:

"I cast Mage Armor at CL -1. So... I actually had +4 AC last round, and that attack would have missed me."

[noob]

"I cast Mage Armor at CL -1. So... I actually had +4 AC last round, and that attack would have missed me."

I research that epic spell with dc -6000 so I finish researching that epic spell far in the past and get a mountain of gold and suddenly learn a ton of things.

[loky1109]

Looking at Shadow Weave Magic feat.


Your effective caster level for spells you cast from the schools of Evocation or Transmutation (except spells with the darkness descriptor) is reduced by one. (First-level Shadow Weave users cannot cast spells from these schools.)
So yes, you can't cast.

[Max Caysey]

Looking at Shadow Weave Magic feat.


So yes, you can't cast.

Thanks... that surely cleared that up! I was as I had guessed but nice to have it 100% confirmed.

[ShurikVch]

Looking at Shadow Weave Magic feat.


So yes, you can't cast.
Looks like one more example of "specific trumps general"

For example, Sphere Sorcerer (Dragon #330) got +1 CL in their specialty and -1 CL in "opposite sphere"; specialty sphere available one level earlier, opposite sphere - one level later.
But if "normal" multiclassed Sorcerer take Practiced Spellcaster feat - they regain CL, but not get access to new spells

[Hua]

As they said, by rule you cannot cast it.
However, since your DM allowed the feat, that might not have been his real intent.
See if he will house rule, FOR THE FEAT ONLY, that a first level spell dropped to zero means you treat it like a cantrip in that it is "half a first level spell", so your mage armor would be half duration, which would be 30 minutes.

This is against the rules, but might be suitable for a house rule.

It has to be tied only to this feat and kept away from any magic item creation, as it would really mess them up!

[Jay R]

Assuming I'm level 1 specialist wizard, but I have taken a trait, that reduced my caster level in all but my specialized school of magic (Spellgifted), what happens now, when I cast mage armor that has 1 hour/level? Does it simple wink out immediately or can't I cast it at all or what?

Cheers!

If I were the DM, you would only be able to cast cantrips from the other schools. And cantrips with durations based on CL would last 0 time. Don't cast Light; it lasts 0 rounds. But Mage Hand is fine; its duration is "Concentration".

For some spells, I might let you have 10% of the duration a 1st-level caster gets -- 1 round for Detect Magic, 1 minute for Read Magic.

But you are supposed to be behind a 1st level wizard with those spells. I'd make sure you were.