Metamagic combined with metamagic rods

[Feldar]

Let's say that I have prepared a protection from evil using the chain spell metamagic feat. With a level three adjustment for chain spell, this requires a 4th level spell slot.

Now, I have a lesser metamagic rod of quicken. Can I quicken my chain protection from evil using my lesser metamagic rod of quicken?

It's from a 4th level spell slot, but RAW it's a 1st level spell. Preparing with metamagic other than heighten spell does not change the spell's level.

RAW I think yes, the rod works.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho the Rod would only work for spontaneous casters (for the spell/rod combination you mentioned) by strict RAW.

The problem I see with prepared casting is that the lvl of a prepared spell is already altered and thus makes it an invalid option for the rod.

Whereas a spontaneous caster alters the level of the spell while casting it. Since you can choose the order you apply the rod and your meta feats, you use the rod first and than apply your own meta feats.

[Kitsuneymg]

Imho the Rod would only work for spontaneous casters (for the spell/rod combination you mentioned) by strict RAW.

The problem I see with prepared casting is that the lvl of a prepared spell is already altered and thus makes it an invalid option for the rod.

Whereas a spontaneous caster alters the level of the spell while casting it. Since you can choose the order you apply the rod and your meta feats, you use the rod first and than apply your own meta feats.

If you do that, then isn’t it going to take a full round action? I think quicken needs to be last for spontaneous casters unless they have some
Feat or ability that negates the “metamagic takes a full round action” thing.

[Darg]

If you do that, then isn’t it going to take a full round action? I think quicken needs to be last for spontaneous casters unless they have some
Feat or ability that negates the “metamagic takes a full round action” thing.

Was probably saying it as a general rule. As an aside, metamagic rods only increase the cast time of sorcerers. It makes no mention of spontaneous casting at all.

My groups use a literal interpretation that it gives you the use of the feat a certain number of times per day, not that you use it to work like sudden metamagic when has no language to the effect of. Then again the wider community thinks differently and so houseruling away the increased casting time for sorcerers is only fair considering no one else suffers drawbacks, spontaneous or otherwise.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you do that, then isn’t it going to take a full round action? I think quicken needs to be last for spontaneous casters unless they have some
Feat or ability that negates the “metamagic takes a full round action” thing.

yeah, as Darg said it was more meant of a general rule.

In chase of quickening, you need one of the options sorcerer have, that doesn't rely on prepared casting.
e.g. Impromptu Metamagic or Metamagic specialist.

[Darg]

Rapid metamagic works too (even if it takes up a higher level slot).

[Feldar]

Imho the Rod would only work for spontaneous casters (for the spell/rod combination you mentioned) by strict RAW.

This makes zero sense. Please provide a citation to support your position.


The problem I see with prepared casting is that the lvl of a prepared spell is already altered and thus makes it an invalid option for the rod.

Again, please provide a citation. Nothing that I've found supports this position.


Let's try this again from the beginning.

The question: can a lesser metamagic rod be used to modify a spell cast from a 4th level spell slot?

From the DMG section on metamagic rods (pg 236): "A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder."

From the PHB description of the heighten spell feat (pg 95): "Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies."

From the PHB description of the still spell feat (pg 101, emphasis mine):"A stilled spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level." Yes, it uses an N+1 slot but it's still a level N spell.

Nothing in chapter 10 of the PHB says anything about applying metamagic feats.

I see zero evidence that prohibits this action in my search so far.

[Gruftzwerg]

This makes zero sense. Please provide a citation to support your position.



Again, please provide a citation. Nothing that I've found supports this position.


Let's try this again from the beginning.

The question: can a lesser metamagic rod be used to modify a spell cast from a 4th level spell slot?

From the DMG section on metamagic rods (pg 236): "A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder."

From the PHB description of the heighten spell feat (pg 95): "Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies."

From the PHB description of the still spell feat (pg 101, emphasis mine):"A stilled spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level." Yes, it uses an N+1 slot but it's still a level N spell.

Nothing in chapter 10 of the PHB says anything about applying metamagic feats.

I see zero evidence that prohibits this action in my search so far.

Ok, I've looked at the rules to double check and here is the result:

Strict RAW:
You could get away with this for TO purposes.



RAI/actual table play:
you might feel that this might cause a conflict:




With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
Strictly RAW this rule sole seems to apply to storing meta spells into scroll, potion, and wands. But imho it is not to far stretched to assume that the rule was meant for "magic items and metamagic" as the title suggest. This is at best RAI and not RAW. But your DM might still annoy you with restricting you to the altered metamagic lvl for the rods, even if they are not called out by RAW.


Seems like one of those RAW vs RAI conflicts, so pick the answer that fits your situation/table the best (if you are the DM) or discuss it with your group. For TO forum purposes, you should be fine. Sorry, if the first answer was not precise enough, it's not always easy to remember every tiny aspect of the rules..^^

edit: another indicator that this is RAI is the spell Arcane Fusion. It got an ERRATA for the level restriction. The level restriction should account for any metamagic changes for game balancing purposes. And the rules for wands and potions suggest that this should also be the chase for magic items and metamagic.

[Zanos]

RAW I believe OP is correct, metamagic is very specific that it does not count as a higher level for any purpose other than what spell slot is needed. It's not really a higher level spell so it doesn't go through a globe of invulnerability or have a higher DC or etc, so it should also not require a more powerful metamagic rod. This also arguably applies to pearls of power, which reference spell level and not slot level.

I believe PF received an FAQ that they least advantageous level is always used by the caster in these scenarios.

[Feldar]

Wow, I hadn't even thought about pearls of power. Great catch.

[Troacctid]

Metamagic rods care about the spell's level before metamagic. This works just fine. You'll also find similar interactions with items like spell-storing weapons and glyph seals.

[Nubsternator]

P. 88 of the PHB states the following:

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic
spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared
and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not
changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description. The
modifications made by these feats only apply to spells cast directly
by the feat user. A spellcaster can’t use a metamagic feat to alter a
spell being cast from a wand, scroll, or other device.
Metamagic feats that eliminate components of a spell (such as
Silent Spell and Still Spell) don’t eliminate the attack of opportunity
provoked by casting a spell while threatened. However, casting a
spell modified by Quicken Spell does not provoke an attack of
opportunity.
Metamagic feats cannot be used with all spells. See the specific
feat descriptions for the spells that a particular feat can’t modify.

The first sentence is the important one I saw. It should mean that the spell operates at it's base level (ex. save DC and globe resistance), but "prepared and cast" as the higher level of what the metamagic made it. Following that train of thought, it should mean that RAW you at least need the normal rod of quickening for your spell.