Potential Sorcerer Rejiggering thoughts

[Khrysaes]

So, to beat a dead horse, I am disastisfied with the Sorcerer, namely that it doesn't "feel" like a sorcerer to me. So I made some changes and would love thoughts.

First, the Wizard: To me, it is supposed to be an individual that studies magic and then applies that knowledge to cast spells using the magic around them. This is shown through the spellbook, memorization of spells to cast, and a breadth of different spells.

Conversely, the Sorcerer: The sorcerer casts their spells intuitively. Their magic is usually innate, coming from within them. However, in contrast to the wizard, they may have less versatility in their spells, but can cast their spells with more oomph, and for longer periods of time.

5e doesn't do the sorcerer well, in my opinion, but Tasha's has made some improvements, but I still don't think it captures that "feel" of a sorcerer to me.

First, before subclasses, the wizard can recover spell slots over a short rest, once per long rest, starting at first level. The sorcerer "can" do something similar, in that each long rest they get up to 20 sorcerery points, which they can convert to spell slots.

However, Second, the sorcerer uses sorcery points for a LOT of other features, including the "metamagic" which lets them pretty adequately provide that extra "oomph" that I feel sorcerers have. The problem is that its a trade off of the "oomph" and equal spells per long rest of the wizard, which also gets extra "oomph" over the sorcerer in the subclass features when a sorcerers features often ALSO cost sorcery points

Third, Wizards get their subclass features at 2, 6, 10, and 14. Sorcerers get theirs at 1, 6, 14, and 18. At 10 they get an additional metamagic.

Fourth, at 20th level the Wizard has two spells, one first and one second level spell that they can use at will, and two third level spells they can use once per short rest with no spell slot. In contrast, the 20th level sorcerer feature provides 4 sorcery points, which is not enough points for one, let alone the two 3rd level spells per short rest a wizard gets. They also don't get at will second and first level spells.

Fifth, the wizard, at 20, with 20 intelligence, 25 different prepared spells, plus one more 1st and 2nd level spell that they can cast at will with no slots, and two 3rd level spells that are always prepared. The sorcerer gets 15, barring any extra from subclasses or things like feats that a wizard can also get. This is not to mention that wizards have the best ritual casting in the game, which also don't take spell slots.

Finally, and this fits with the above, is that the sorcerer has a smaller spell list to choose from than a wizard. The wizard, via their spell book, can also have ALL of their spells on the list, just not at once.

Now, less spells known than a wizard can prepare DOES fit with the specialization of a sorcerer, so does a smaller spell list but because the sorcerer doesn't have the ability to cast more of the specialized spells than the wizard it's just plain worse.
This was somewhat fixed with Tasha's sorcerer subclasses adding spells known, but the previous ones didn't, so it makes the Tasha's ones objectively better than prior subclasses.

Therefore, I have been considering the following changes to the Sorcerer class.

1: Instead of Spell Slots, the Sorcerer uses the spellpoint variant from the DMG, with spell/sorcery points equal to as shown on that table + sorcerer level.

2: The "Font of magic" feature essentially becomes a multiclass only feature.

3: In the "Font of magic" feature, when spell slots are converted to points, and points to slots, they follow the table, so 1st level slots give/cost 2 points, 2nd give/cost 3, 3rd give/cost 5, 4th give/cost 6, 5th give/cost 7. Keep that you can't have more points than given for a sorcerer of whatever level(as shown on table + sorcerer level) and that you can't convert higher than 5th level slots.

4: All subclasses will have a bonus spells list, which provides 2 spells for each spell level 1st to 5th and don't count against the spells known as shown on the Sorcerer table.

5: Similar to Aberrant mind's 6th level feature. All sorcerers can cast their bonus spells for 1 point per spell level, rather than the amount it would otherwise cost as noted in the table and '3:' above. Aberrant mind would still get the removal of somatic, verbal, and most material components at level 6, maybe add something else. This means that the sorcerer's limited list of innate spells can be cast cheaper and therefore more often than other spells, giving that feeling that sorcerers can cast more from a limited list

6: Sorcerer subclass features are at 1, 6, 10, 14.

7: At 2nd level, instead of "Font of magic" which now only apply to multiclass characters, sorcerers get "sorcerous recovery" Essentially they recover their sorcerer level worth of sorcery points over a short rest, once per long rest.

8: At 18th level, since they no longer get a subclass feature, instead they get "Wellspring of magic: At the start of each of your turns, you regain 1 sorcery point if you have no more than 3 sorcery points left. " This would give the sorcerer a more flexible version of endless casting that a wizard gets at 18th level, but also more limited in that they have to wait for two turns to cast anything higher than a 1st level spell from their bonus spells, and three turns for anything higher than a 1st level spell or a second-level spell from their bonus spells.

9: At 20th level, I have a few thoughts. Something along the lines of one or multiple of:
Metamagic Mastery
a: They know all metamagic
b: All Metamagic costs 1 point less(meaning some cost 0 points)
c: Choose a number of metamagic options you know: These metamagic options cost 0 points.
I am thinking A and B, because otherwise level 20 would have endless quicken spells.

The biggest problems I foresee are that depending on the bonus spells, there could be a lot of power in that they cost less points to cast than other spells. Additionally, for 3 levels of sorcerer, according to my changes and the spell points tables, they would have 17 sorcery points to use for metamagic. Conversely, they wouldn't have 3 caster levels. Finally, The sorcerer would be GREAT at nova casting in that they can use all their points to only cast spells of the highest level. So a level 17 sorcerer could cast something like nine 9th level spells or 24 5th level spells from their bonus spell list.

There are probably more issues with multiclassing I didn't think of.

[Khrysaes]

This is for another post.

I had a second thought, which is "Removing" the warlock and turning the Sorcerer into a short rest caster using spell points.

Essentially, grafting the sorcerer features to the warlock chassis, and warlock features to the wizard chassis(The pact boons actually fit really well. so do the bonus spells to the spell list, rather than known) Pacts can be flavored as "teachers"

The invocations could be reflavored/changed to "origin mutations" essentially things a sorcerer gets because of their origin.

Another note: To prevent the high level spell spamming from points in the first post, implement the mystic arcanums for the 6th-9th level spells.

[Kane0]

1: Instead of Spell Slots, the Sorcerer uses the spellpoint variant from the DMG, with spell/sorcery points equal to as shown on that table + sorcerer level.

2: The "Font of magic" feature essentially becomes a multiclass only feature.

3: In the "Font of magic" feature, when spell slots are converted to points, and points to slots, they follow the table, so 1st level slots give/cost 2 points, 2nd give/cost 3, 3rd give/cost 5, 4th give/cost 6, 5th give/cost 7. Keep that you can't have more points than given for a sorcerer of whatever level(as shown on table + sorcerer level) and that you can't convert higher than 5th level slots.

4: All subclasses will have a bonus spells list, which provides 2 spells for each spell level 1st to 5th and don't count against the spells known as shown on the Sorcerer table.

5: Similar to Aberrant mind's 6th level feature. All sorcerers can cast their bonus spells for 1 point per spell level, rather than the amount it would otherwise cost as noted in the table and '3:' above. Aberrant mind would still get the removal of somatic, verbal, and most material components at level 6, maybe add something else. This means that the sorcerer's limited list of innate spells can be cast cheaper and therefore more often than other spells, giving that feeling that sorcerers can cast more from a limited list

6: Sorcerer subclass features are at 1, 6, 10, 14.

7: At 2nd level, instead of "Font of magic" which now only apply to multiclass characters, sorcerers get "sorcerous recovery" Essentially they recover their sorcerer level worth of sorcery points over a short rest, once per long rest.

8: At 18th level, since they no longer get a subclass feature, instead they get "Wellspring of magic: At the start of each of your turns, you regain 1 sorcery point if you have no more than 3 sorcery points left. " This would give the sorcerer a more flexible version of endless casting that a wizard gets at 18th level, but also more limited in that they have to wait for two turns to cast anything higher than a 1st level spell from their bonus spells, and three turns for anything higher than a 1st level spell or a second-level spell from their bonus spells.

9: At 20th level, I have a few thoughts. Something along the lines of one or multiple of:
Metamagic Mastery
a: They know all metamagic
b: All Metamagic costs 1 point less(meaning some cost 0 points)
c: Choose a number of metamagic options you know: These metamagic options cost 0 points.
I am thinking A and B, because otherwise level 20 would have endless quicken spells.

The biggest problems I foresee are that depending on the bonus spells, there could be a lot of power in that they cost less points to cast than other spells. Additionally, for 3 levels of sorcerer, according to my changes and the spell points tables, they would have 17 sorcery points to use for metamagic. Conversely, they wouldn't have 3 caster levels. Finally, The sorcerer would be GREAT at nova casting in that they can use all their points to only cast spells of the highest level. So a level 17 sorcerer could cast something like nine 9th level spells or 24 5th level spells from their bonus spell list.

There are probably more issues with multiclassing I didn't think of.

Spell Points:
It works well (with some considerations), I do something similar. I use the spell point variant for Sorcerers (and only sorcerers), but instead of tampering with the Sorcery Points I cut them entirely and change Font of Magic at level 2 to instead give you Prof Bonus SP back each short rest. I didn't feel like it made sense to have two different and separate pools of long rest magic fuel (that both abbreviated to SP), but at the same time I didn't want to merge them as it would lead to players spamming with the much larger capacity.
As a slight modification to the standard DMG SP rules instead of 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th once per long rest each I use 4th, 5th and 6th once per short rest each and 7th, 8th and 9th each once per long rest. It nudges players to use lower level spells even when they would otherwise spam the highest they can as often as they can (which they can still do with fireball, haste, etc) and helps differentiate a little during play from warlocks that also use the highest slot available.

Pre-Tashas subclass extra spells:
Absolutely, although I tend to err on the side of 1 bonus per spell level instead of 2.

Lower SP costs:
Because I give the recovery mechanic early on which eases the cost of all those SP metamagics and features I don't really feel the need to also reduce the cost of spells (Aberrant retains that as their special thing, a more efficient SP cost with a select few spells is still a great feature)

Subclass levels:
So the later two features come 4 levels sooner each? I try to keep subclass levels the same for my brew for futureproofing purposes, and especially since I give the recovery early on. By and large it seems OK if thats what you want to do though.

Class feature/Capstone
The feature I give sorcs is the ability to 'anyspell'. Once per long rest at level 10 they can cast any spell of up to 5th level as if they knew it, expending SP as normal for the slot and able to add metamagic to it. The capstone changes this to once per short rest. Does that feel like it matches the flavor without just expanding their spell list?

Additional question: What about when and how often you get metamagic? I do 2 at level 3 plus another 1 at levels 5, 9, 13 and 16 for a total of six known.

[Khrysaes]

Spell Points:
It works well (with some considerations), I do something similar. I use the spell point variant for Sorcerers (and only sorcerers), but instead of tampering with the Sorcery Points I cut them entirely and change Font of Magic at level 2 to instead give you Prof Bonus SP back each short rest. I didn't feel like it made sense to have two different and separate pools of long rest magic fuel (that both abbreviated to SP), but at the same time I didn't want to merge them as it would lead to players spamming with the much larger capacity.

This makes sense. I personally combined them and only called is Sorcerery points. I combined them giving them more points than a wizard would get because the sorcerer feel that having limited spells, as spells known, vs the wizard's prepared spells, while having more casting endurance and power was the goal. As it is in the PHB, wizards have 1: more spells at once, being that they can prepare more spells than a sorcerer knows, which is fine.. ish.. 2: more casting endurance thanks to arcane recovery, and 3: more casting endurance at level 18 and 20 through Signature spells and spell mastery.

The way I found to bring sorcerers up was to make their origin bonus spells cost less than non origin spells and improve their point recovery by giving their own arcane recovery type mechanic. Your short rest recovery could work too, though I think it doesn't scale quite as well as a wizard's. So the sorcerer can now choose to cast more spells of a limited list or more powerful spells by using metamagic and casting them at a higher level.



As a slight modification to the standard DMG SP rules instead of 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th once per long rest each I use 4th, 5th and 6th once per short rest each and 7th, 8th and 9th each once per long rest. It nudges players to use lower level spells even when they would otherwise spam the highest they can as often as they can (which they can still do with fireball, haste, etc) and helps differentiate a little during play from warlocks that also use the highest slot available.

I like this, and may use it.



Pre-Tashas subclass extra spells:
Absolutely, although I tend to err on the side of 1 bonus per spell level instead of 2.


I may have seen your answer before, but what bonus spells do you use?
I am thinking of allowing a Domain spell list for Divine Souls, and I have a spell list for Draconic sorcerers.




Lower SP costs:
Because I give the recovery mechanic early on which eases the cost of all those SP metamagics and features I don't really feel the need to also reduce the cost of spells (Aberrant retains that as their special thing, a more efficient SP cost with a select few spells is still a great feature)

Yeah, I will have to playtest it to see if I think it is too powerful. I think the limiting factor is that Aberrant and Clockwork say that they can change the spells on their list, which VASTLY improves a mechanic that lowers costs.

That said, followup to the subclass extra spells, which schools would you choose for each subclass if they were all allowed to change their spells. I.e. Draconic would probably be Transmutation and Evocation. Divine would be conjuration and.... abjuration? Shadow would probably get necromancy and illusion.



Subclass levels:
So the later two features come 4 levels sooner each? I try to keep subclass levels the same for my brew for futureproofing purposes, and especially since I give the recovery early on. By and large it seems OK if thats what you want to do though.


I mainly did it because of adding a Sorcerer version of Endless spells at level 18 with my own "if you have less than 3 SP at the start of your turn, gain 1SP."



Class feature/Capstone
The feature I give sorcs is the ability to 'anyspell'. Once per long rest at level 10 they can cast any spell of up to 5th level as if they knew it, expending SP as normal for the slot and able to add metamagic to it. The capstone changes this to once per short rest. Does that feel like it matches the flavor without just expanding their spell list?


This sounds like the Genie warlocks Lesser wish and at later levels, Their mystic arcanum with Wish. But to me it doesn't quite "fit" as it breaks the "limited spells, more endurance/power" that the sorcerer is supposed to portray.



Additional question: What about when and how often you get metamagic? I do 2 at level 3 plus another 1 at levels 5, 9, 13 and 16 for a total of six known.

I had not planned on adjusting the number of metamagic a character gets, so to my knowledge that would still be 4. But adding extra wouldn't be the worst.

[Kane0]

This makes sense. I personally combined them and only called is Sorcerery points. I combined them giving them more points than a wizard would get because the sorcerer feel that having limited spells, as spells known, vs the wizard's prepared spells, while having more casting endurance and power was the goal. As it is in the PHB, wizards have 1: more spells at once, being that they can prepare more spells than a sorcerer knows, which is fine.. ish.. 2: more casting endurance thanks to arcane recovery, and 3: more casting endurance at level 18 and 20 through Signature spells and spell mastery.

The way I found to bring sorcerers up was to make their origin bonus spells cost less than non origin spells and improve their point recovery by giving their own arcane recovery type mechanic. Your short rest recovery could work too, though I think it doesn't scale quite as well as a wizard's. So the sorcerer can now choose to cast more spells of a limited list or more powerful spells by using metamagic and casting them at a higher level.

I feel like you are overcorrecting the sorcerer's resource pool (especially in the case of 5-min workdays) but proof will be in the playtesting. Keen to hear how it goes!



I may have seen your answer before, but what bonus spells do you use?
I am thinking of allowing a Domain spell list for Divine Souls, and I have a spell list for Draconic sorcerers.

Draconic: Cause Fear, Dragon Breath, Fly, Elemental Bane (brewed better), Geas. Can swap Evocation from Wizard. I've seen lots of good per-type lists though.
Wild: Roll randomly as if you had looted a scroll, reroll anything already on the sorc list. Roll 1d8 for school and 1d4 (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizard) for class you can swap spells with.
Storm: Thunderous Smite, Skywrite, Call Lightning, Summon Elemental (Air or Water only), Maelstrom. Can swap Transmutation from Druid
Shadow: Prot from Good/Evil, Shadow Blade, Summon Shadowspawn, Shadow of Moil, Negative Energy Flood. Can trade Illusion from Bard
Divine: Pick a domain list and choose one from each level. Can only swap between the domain spells.



Yeah, I will have to playtest it to see if I think it is too powerful. I think the limiting factor is that Aberrant and Clockwork say that they can change the spells on their list, which VASTLY improves a mechanic that lowers costs.

That said, followup to the subclass extra spells, which schools would you choose for each subclass if they were all allowed to change their spells. I.e. Draconic would probably be Transmutation and Evocation. Divine would be conjuration and.... abjuration? Shadow would probably get necromancy and illusion.

See above, I also prefer to limit aberrant and clockwork to one school and class each to curb them just a little. Doesn't make that much of a difference though.



This sounds like the Genie warlocks Lesser wish and at later levels, Their mystic arcanum with Wish. But to me it doesn't quite "fit" as it breaks the "limited spells, more endurance/power" that the sorcerer is supposed to portray.

Yeah doesn't fit everyone's concept of the sorcerer. I think it compliments the concept of metamagic being able to bend magic into whatever form suits them as needed.
And for the record I did that before the Genie patron UA and Tashas :P