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Segial
2007-11-21, 03:06 AM
During my last gaming session, my party ended up in a remote dust desert, and firmly believing in the skills of their cleric, they decided not to pack any food or water. Too bad for them that the cleric had a crisis of faith and was unable to use any spells for a while, and the only magic they had avaible was that of the bard. So the question came up, do healing spells restore bloodloss, so if you would cut someone and drink his blood, could you heal the bloodloss with a healingspell afterwards?

Mikeavelli
2007-11-21, 03:26 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm

Not even magic that restores hit point damage will recover damage taken due to thirst or hunger.

Your interesting, if particularly gruesome workaround, would not work either, since you're still losing the fluids.

Seffbasilisk
2007-11-21, 03:36 AM
Theoretically it would work, but humans aren't adapted to drink blood. Drinking enough blood will only make you sick, and you're body will spend more water trying to get usable water out of it then you'll actually get.

If you had a water-trap that you were feeding the blood...that would be different.

Khanderas
2007-11-21, 03:41 AM
A loaf of bread contains like 50% water. But you still get thirstier when you eat it. Saltwater is even worse.
Quenching thirst then, I would guess, requires you to drink something with a more water per quantity then yourself and certain chemicals would actually make your thirstier (see saltwater).
Blood would not be good for a water drinking creature. At best really inefficient. Perhaps they can be "rescued" by nomads, put in chains and either prepped to be sold into slavery or trained for gladiator games. Or friendly versions, in a hostile environment like a desert, you help your fellow man, or elf or whatever.

Tack122
2007-11-22, 04:04 AM
Blood should accually be easily digestible by humans. I don't think that the salt content would be high enough in contrast to the water content to cause dehydration. I remember seeing a documentary about an African tribe that uses the blood of cows for food, unfortunately I don't know specifics about it, I just remember a few things about it. Especially vivid is my memory of them showing the blood extraction process, it wasn't bloody, but they did it in such a way that there was no long term damage so that the cow would live to provide food again.

Khanderas
2007-11-22, 08:06 AM
Blood should accually be easily digestible by humans. I don't think that the salt content would be high enough in contrast to the water content to cause dehydration. I remember seeing a documentary about an African tribe that uses the blood of cows for food, unfortunately I don't know specifics about it, I just remember a few things about it. Especially vivid is my memory of them showing the blood extraction process, it wasn't bloody, but they did it in such a way that there was no long term damage so that the cow would live to provide food again.
Digestible absolutly, pigs for example, who are despite protests, biologically alot like humans, have perfectly drinkable blood. Lotta iron. As is Broccoli if you need to replenish iron.

My speech up there about salt contents was just to muse about how dehydration isn't automatically treatable by drinking any liquid. I do however think that while the waterlevels improve, 1 pint of blood would be alot less quenching then 1 pint of water. Drinking beer, would help for the moment (maybe), but you lose more then you gain.

The tribesmen drinking blood were problebly not on the verge of dehydration, quite possibly they drank the blood for the nutritional value. Kinda like milk :D
... Except milk tastes better when cold ^_^

SoD
2007-11-22, 08:22 AM
I dunno, warm milk can help you get to sleep. And, although I like the idea of that beer idea, if they didn't take any food or water...but they took beer? And does the bard have create water? I know clerics get it, and I think wizards and sorcerers get it, but not too sure about bards...

Yuki Akuma
2007-11-22, 08:50 AM
If you were dehydrated your blood wouldn't contain much water anyway. It would end up with the consistancy of syrup.

Not a pleasant thought.

Reinboom
2007-11-22, 08:56 AM
Clerics, Druids, and Paladins get 'Create Water'.
Clerics get Create Food and Water.
Clerics and Druids get Purify Food and Drink.
Sorcerer/Wizards get Magnificent Mansion

No way to create water/clean water by the bard, I believe..

Doing a bit of research led me to find many vampirism boards, and the such. I also found much evidence of cultures drinking blood, especially certain African tribes. From the vampirism boards, there are many reports of getting a high of certain people's blood, interestingly.
The closest report anywhere (and ironically is an article of surviving in the desert) does state that drinking blood can satisfy you.

* In extreme situations, a dehydrated person can survive by drinking blood. "It's not terribly bad because blood is a high source of protein, so you get energy and fluid from the blood," says Wayne Askew. But it's not optimal because even though blood is 82 percent water, your body still has to use water to digest the proteins in the animal's blood. And animals can carry deadly diseases. So drinking blood should only be a last resort.

Here's the article:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-111979685.html

--Edit--
From here, this will be extending into house ruling..
For the general idea for how D&D works, blood loss isn't hp loss, but rather constitution damage. See the stirge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/stirge.htm) or wounding properties of weapons.
This seams to be rather consistent, over all, as well.
I would rule that instead of HP damage (of which can be healed), they take constitution damage. (Which requires some form of restoration.)

Clementx
2007-11-22, 10:10 AM
Blood is a perfectly viable food source. It is not just "African tribes" that do it- it is a survival tactic used by pretty much every single pastoral people in the world. Most do not drink it straight from the artery, though.

Notice I said "food source". You will still need supplemental fluids, especially in the desert. The salt content is not going to be a problem, given how much salt you are losing through perspiration (and besides, its just electrolytes, and electrolytes are good). You just need more water than you could get by gorging yourself to bursting on blood.

SoD
2007-11-22, 11:31 AM
Does talk about electrolytes, supplemental fluids, digesting proteins, and other such topics...does this kill catgirls? Because if it does, you should all be feeling guilty about it. :mad:

SpikeFightwicky
2007-11-22, 12:19 PM
I know there's no specific rule for it, but wouldn't blood loss on a scale to provide sustenance cause Con damage instead of just HP damage? Vampires (again, there aren't any in game rules for it...) live off of blood, and cause no HP damage with blood drain, just Con damage. It would likely take A LOT of blood to sustain a party of medium sized humanoids. Then there's the issue of whether or not blood is 'watery' enough to stave off dehydration.

Randel
2007-11-22, 12:22 PM
Well, there was one Dragon magazine article on Olidammara the laughing rogue deity. It included one spell called feast of Olidammara that was a level 2 spell for bards and I think a level 3 for clerics.

Basically, it works just like create food and water but the food has more flavor to it. If possible, you could house rule that your bard watched the cleric enough to learn how to cast Create Food and Water. Would involve less cannibalism.

Though to be honest, I can't quite understand why creating food with magic would be strictly the domain of clerics, wouldn't wizards and particularly bards (who are supposed to be jack of all trades or wandering explorers) want to learn how to use magic to whip up a meal if the want?

RoboticSheeple
2007-11-22, 12:38 PM
If the Bard has Shadow Conjuration a Sleet Storm can be made. Your ruling on what happens when they eat the snow.
Otherwise L.s Tiny Hut will help them survive a bit longer in the heat.
Also, on the off chance the Bard can cast it there's Heroes' Feast.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-22, 01:59 PM
I think you're thinking of the Mahai, who have a diet consisting pretty much entirely of cow's blood, milk, and (very rarely) beef.

Chronos
2007-11-22, 02:08 PM
Drinking beer, would help for the moment (maybe), but you lose more then you gain.Beer is less hydrating than water, but it's still hydrating. Likewise for caffeinated drinks. You have to get up into the distilled spirits to get a beverage which costs you more water than it gives you.

Notice I said "food source". You will still need supplemental fluids, especially in the desert. The salt content is not going to be a problem, given how much salt you are losing through perspiration (and besides, its just electrolytes, and electrolytes are good).Of course the salt is going to be a problem. Yeah, you're losing some salt through perspiration, but you're losing more water that way. Electrolytes are good in the proper amounts, but Gatorade is a lot less salty than blood. Basically, your body can absorb water from a liquid if the water is less salty than the body is. If the liquid you're drinking is saltier than your body, it'll actually absorb water from you. And your blood, of course, is just as salty as you are. So drinking blood would neither dehydrate nor hydrate you.

Ralfarius
2007-11-22, 02:14 PM
You could try resorting to Urophagia. It's advised against in a lot of survival handbooks, but there are numerous accounts of people surviving in such a manner when trapped or stranded in inhospitable conditions.

Clementx
2007-11-22, 02:16 PM
If the liquid you're drinking is saltier than your body, it'll actually absorb water from you. And your blood, of course, is just as salty as you are. So drinking blood would neither dehydrate nor hydrate you.
Except not. The only thing that mammals have going for them is their kidneys, and their ability to excrete hypertonic urine. Considering you can drink your urine one or two cycles without much harm tells you something, namely that blood, which is less salty than urine, is clearly drinkable. Nevermind the fact that it is not much saltier than a lot of things people do eat.

Those cat girls are now officially torn into tiny little bits (but luckily, they are very moist, so the party is saved).

Blanks
2007-11-22, 02:36 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm

Not even magic that restores hit point damage will recover damage taken due to thirst or hunger.

Your interesting, if particularly gruesome workaround, would not work either, since you're still losing the fluids.

So a sword wound can be healed because none of that is bloodloss?
I find that kinda silly. Blood loss is healed by spells, otherwise "normal healing by spells" gets REALLY silly :smalleek:

Reinboom
2007-11-22, 03:00 PM
So a sword wound can be healed because none of that is bloodloss?
I find that kinda silly. Blood loss is healed by spells, otherwise "normal healing by spells" gets REALLY silly :smalleek:

Actually (I believe D&D has kept this fluff from 2nd ed...) most HP loss is from that of combat wear, pain, beaten, bruise, etc. and not from actual strikes or cuts.
It's very difficult to define things in D&D in comparisons, because it's extremely inaccurate and is a game.

Still, things that do -just- bleeding / blood drain (vampire, stirge, etc.) tend to be con damage. This would be just adding to the consistency of the game internally (instead of trying to slay more of my kind).

Lycar
2007-11-22, 03:30 PM
Blood is a perfectly viable food source.

See also Blutwurst. (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blutwurst)

Basically, a sausage made from (pigs) blood, fat and maybe onions and bacon too.

Even the ancient greeks did it.

Ah, and here it is in English: Black Pudding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_sausage).

..... of course, that also is a monster in D&D.... :smallconfused:

Lycar

Subotei
2007-11-22, 05:07 PM
I read somewhere you need about a gallon of water per day in the desert to stay properly hydrated. So given an average person has around 8 pints of blood or so, to stay hydrated you're looking at exsanguinating your fellow traveller.:smalleek:

Blanks
2007-11-22, 05:16 PM
Actually (I believe D&D has kept this fluff from 2nd ed...) most HP loss is from that of combat wear, pain, beaten, bruise, etc. and not from actual strikes or cuts.
So if someone stuck a stiletto into my main artery i would be taking (HP)damage from either fatigue or just from the hole being there and the bloodloss doesnt matter (if there even is one...)?
I think im gonna house rule this one when im DMing :smalltongue:


It's very difficult to define things in D&D in comparisons, because it's extremely inaccurate and is a game.
Thought i'd include this now that i have poked fun at you, and ofcourse you are correct - hp is in itself a very funny concept if you think about it :)

Dragonstar
2007-11-22, 05:49 PM
Well, there was one Dragon magazine article on Olidammara the laughing rogue deity. It included one spell called feast of Olidammara that was a level 2 spell for bards and I think a level 3 for clerics.

Got it in my hand - Dragon #342 (April 2006), pg 41:

Festival Feast
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Brd 2/Clr 2 (Olidammara)
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft. + 55 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Food and drink to feed three humans/level for one meal
Duration: 2 or 24 hours; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You create a meal of good food, wine, ale, and beer. The food this spell creates smells and tastes wonderful, while being highly nourishing and satisfying to eat. The drinks are tasty but not strong enough to cause intoxication. The food and drink so created decays and becomes inedible within 2 hours if it is not consumed, although it can be kept fresh for 24 hours by casting a purify food and drink spell on it.

So there's an option. And even if it does happen to be nutritionally viable to drink your companion's blood for suvival, one ought to consider the psychological effects of doing so...

Rasumichin
2007-11-22, 06:27 PM
Ah, and here it is in English: Black Pudding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_sausage).


Why am i not surprised by the fact that there's a D&D monster named after Flönz?

Randel
2007-11-22, 09:22 PM
Got it in my hand - Dragon #342 (April 2006), pg 41:

Festival Feast
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Brd 2/Clr 2 (Olidammara)
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft. + 55 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Food and drink to feed three humans/level for one meal
Duration: 2 or 24 hours; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You create a meal of good food, wine, ale, and beer. The food this spell creates smells and tastes wonderful, while being highly nourishing and satisfying to eat. The drinks are tasty but not strong enough to cause intoxication. The food and drink so created decays and becomes inedible within 2 hours if it is not consumed, although it can be kept fresh for 24 hours by casting a purify food and drink spell on it.

So there's an option. And even if it does happen to be nutritionally viable to drink your companion's blood for suvival, one ought to consider the psychological effects of doing so...

Thank you for looking that up. Interestingly, conjuration spells that create food are spells that I really remember the most. I guess it could trace back to all the times I play Nethack and die of starvation in that game.

Also, after looking at the bard spell list, here are a few (possibly munchiny) spells that may help you survive in the desert.

Unseen Servant- tell the servant to dig a hole in the sand, since its a shapeless force it can just lift up 20 pounds of dirt and plop it somewhere nearby... or give it a shovel or stick if it needs tools. Use it to either excavate a shady area, dig for water, or find some moist dirt.

If you have moist dirt, use prestidigitation or mending to extract the water from it... just say that you are 'fixing' or 'cleaning' the dirt by getting all that nasty water out of it. Could get you a few spoonfuls or more.

Darkness can provide some limited shade to protect you from the sun for a few minutes.

Dancing lights, light, or just some lantern light may attract moths or small animals at night... to provide better food/water source than your fellow party members.

Summon Monster spells: if summon monster 3 is available just summon a water elemental. Not sure if there are any lower-level summons that can provide water or other liquids.

SadisticFishing
2007-11-22, 11:36 PM
So, SweetRein, how does the loss of your felow Catgirls feel?

Anyways, I think I'd allow this as a DM, but not permanently, as you're just drinking the blood of other dehydrated people. I'd rule that the blood created by the Cure spells is of the same consistency as the blood already in the water, do a lot of math, then give up and just add 150% to the amount of time you can go without water

Talic
2007-11-23, 01:49 AM
The question isn't whether it's as good as Gatorade, the question is, would it work as a short-term solution... Yes.

The key is to start the process before they get dehydrated.

As far as whether cure spells fix blood loss, the answer is certainly yes. There are few hard and fast rules for bleeding out in D&D, but reaching -1 hp does qualify. If a 2nd level commoner falls off a log, and gets reduced to -1hp, he begins to bleed out. Now, say he bled all the way to -9 hp, whereupon an overzealous cleric took notice and cast a Cure Critical Wounds spell. That Commoner would be awakened, full hp, right as rain, not a scratch on him. Even though he bled for 8hp, which is likely all he has, when at full life. Thus, Magical curing can fix blood loss.