OOTS #1251 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

SlashDash

2022-01-07, 09:42 AM

Support "the IFCC is feeding her misleading information somehow" theory seems to be growing, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. :smalleek:
Not bloody likely. Serini mentioned she know who the OOTS are because of the Sending they kept giving her.

She specifically knew about what happened in Azure City in the throne room and that's more likely because of those devices that each members of the scribbles had.

Well, do you think my theory is possible in general then? I mean, it fits their MO very well and would explain a lot, and they've got to play a role in this book somehow.
Doesn't seem remotely like this has anything to do with what they said in the ending of the previous book about activating an artifact.

In fact, this goes in complete opposite to their plan.
The IFCC made it clear that they wanted a race to the last gate. Serini is attempting to prevent that by having their memories wiped.

She has nothing to do with them.

danielxcutter

2022-01-07, 09:42 AM

For real though, if the backstory stuff for Belkar is all canon, it does explain a bit about why he was so messed up as a person early on.

I mean it doesn't justify it, obviously, but it explains it. Like Tarquin being a crappy parent explaining why Nale was so obsessed about accomplishing things on his initiative.

Fyraltari

2022-01-07, 09:42 AM

Can somebody translate Serini's offer for me? Is she offering him weed?

SlashDash

2022-01-07, 09:43 AM

I can't be the only one thinking that this jokes about Serini reminding Blekar of his grandmother has to be the author trolling all the people who kept guessing they are related, right?

hamishspence

2022-01-07, 09:44 AM

A "swallow whole" attack usually deals bludgeoning and acid damage (from stomach acid), so even the non-acid-breathing sharks can cause acid dama. But Serini was only swallowed for a round or two, so she'll be fine.

Given that regular Huge sharks don't have swallow whole as an option but Dire Sharks do, that might suggest that Razor is a Dire Shark rather than a Large or Huge one.

PH7

2022-01-07, 09:46 AM

Anyone at all worried about the spilled amnesia juice? Just me? Okay.

Not worried, more relieved! Glad that it's no longer a threat.

Beni-Kujaku

2022-01-07, 09:46 AM

Come now, what are the odds of that? Nothing coincidental has ever happened in this comic.

I mean, it's not the first time in the last few pages that Belkar has acted weird. Him arguing against letting Serini fall in the potion, trying to talk multiple times to her instead of going for the attack of opportunity that she provoked in page 1245, the fact he didn't try to get Bloodfeast out of the bag ever since he knows Serini is an halfling...

It could just be that he doesn't want to kill people from his own race, but I wouldn't bet on it, considering it's still Belkar. My money is on "he had a suspicion, that became closer to a certainty when he talked to her right now"

halfeye

2022-01-07, 09:49 AM

Can somebody translate Serini's offer for me? Is she offering him weed?

It's a quote from the Godfather 2, and means a percentage of the loot.

Peelee

2022-01-07, 09:50 AM

Well, do you think my theory is possible in general then? I mean, it fits their MO very well and would explain a lot, and they've got to play a role in this book somehow.

Oh, definitely possible. I think it is highly unlikely, but it's certainly not impossible.

Cicciograna

2022-01-07, 09:53 AM

I haven't laughed that much for an OOTS strip in a long time. This was a blast. The interaction between V and Belkar and "You'd be surprised" absolutely DESTROYED me! Good job, Giant!

Brodie073

2022-01-07, 09:55 AM

If this peek into the personality of a Grannie Belkar existed back when the Kickstarter was going on, I may have had to scrounged up the cash to buy one of the "pick a character to have a unique one-shot comic made for" level items.

Peelee

2022-01-07, 09:56 AM

She specifically knew about what happened in Azure City in the throne room and that's more likely because of those devices that each members of the scribbles had.

While I agree with the rest of what you said, this is highly unlikely; the Sapphire Guard also has the device but had no idea what happened to Lirian's Gate.

Rogan

2022-01-07, 09:57 AM

Just wanted to say, I love the humor of the strip.

Blue Dragon

2022-01-07, 10:00 AM

This is so incredibly awesome that I will not even TRY to point everything I loved about the strip‼

Psyren

2022-01-07, 10:02 AM

Everyone is complimenting O-Chul and Belkar's humor here, but V's comment is what got the biggest laugh from me :smallbiggrin:

Anyone at all worried about the spilled amnesia juice? Just me? Okay.

There was spilled amnesia juice? I forgot :smalltongue:

Can somebody translate Serini's offer for me? Is she offering him weed?

Just treasure I'd guess. "Jingle-jangle" being coinage, and "getting his beak wet" meaning letting him dip into it (financially speaking) for a share.

She doesn't appear to know Belkar's track record for being offered to betray the party by another antagonist. (Or the fact that he's savvy enough to know that she'd simply betray him and knock him out later.)

Frozenstep

2022-01-07, 10:08 AM

Animal companion winning the encounter 10/10

It's not Belkar's and V makes fun of him for it 11/10

Great strip.

Blue Dragon

2022-01-07, 10:08 AM

She couldn't really be granny Bitterleaf right?

Right. There are enough information aside Serini's surname to ensure that.

Corian

2022-01-07, 10:08 AM

danielxcutter

2022-01-07, 10:16 AM

Animal companion winning the encounter 10/10

It's not Belkar's and V makes fun of him for it 11/10

Great strip.

Technically Razor is Lien's special mount, not her animal companion.

Shining Wrath

2022-01-07, 10:17 AM

Can somebody translate Serini's offer for me? Is she offering him weed?

"Getting your beak wet" is an avian form of "getting a taste". In the context of Serini having a lot of money, it means Belkar would get to sample the money, i.e., she's offering a bribe.

SaintRidley

2022-01-07, 10:17 AM

Do you guys seriously think that Belkar doesn’t recognize granny bitterleaf? Like, he knows what his grandma looks like, even trollified.

He might not recognize grandma's grandma, though. There's a thought.

Resileaf

2022-01-07, 10:19 AM

Lien being absolutely done with the shenanigans is a mood. We've all had those moments where the party was screwing around and having nothing done.

Shining Wrath

2022-01-07, 10:24 AM

In the last panel Serini has stopped struggling to escape Haley, and her expression is no longer angry - it might even be thoughtful.
While Serini is not Grandma Bitterleaf, I think the surname "Bitterleaf" means something to her. She knew Grandma back in the day, or she's from a branch of the family, or something.

danielxcutter

2022-01-07, 10:25 AM

He might not recognize grandma's grandma, though. There's a thought.

Serini probably isn't that old. Halflings live longer than humans but only like up to 200 years. That's not long enough for five generations to have passed even by human standards.

Psyren

2022-01-07, 10:25 AM

neriractor

2022-01-07, 10:32 AM

all jokes were on point for this one.

hamishspence

2022-01-07, 10:37 AM

Serini probably isn't that old. Halflings live longer than humans but only like up to 200 years. That's not long enough for five generations to have passed even by human standards.

Given that a human generation is on average 25 years, 200 years would be around 8 human generations.

Sereni could plausibly be much younger than 200 though - halflings can "die of old age" as early as 105 (compared to 72 for a human).

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age

Roughly 66 years had gone by since the Order of the Scribble's quest, when Shojo gave exposition, roughly a year (minus a couple of weeks or so) have gone by since then (so 67 years) and Halfling Rogues normally begin adventuring between 22 and 28. So, if Serini had been 22 when she joined the Order of the Scribble, she could be as young as 89.

She could of course have been much older than 28 when she joined the Scribblers.

carrion pigeons

2022-01-07, 10:46 AM

In real life, shark stomachs contain much stronger acid than human stomachs do. Not important, just an interesting fact.

b_jonas

2022-01-07, 10:46 AM

Belkar has acted weird. […] he didn't try to get Bloodfeast out of the bag Bloodfeast is baleful polymorphed a puny lizard right now. Belkar wanted to get him out of the bag when there was an anti-magic field around, reasoning that the field would suppress the polymorph effect so he'd be a dangerous dinosaur again. The anti-magic field is not around anymore.

And yes, the Giant is just teasing the readers who suspected that Belkar and Serini would be related. We know that they're not related because the Giant said, in 2020-02, that he still has no plans to show Belkar's family (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-2020-34406298). I don't know why people keep asking him, he already said in 2014 that we won't get Belkar's back story, (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435511257542569984) and also tells in the introduction of On the Origin of the PCs (the supplementary comic book volume from 2015) why he didn't write Belkar a back story.

She specifically knew about what happened in Azure City in the throne room and that's more likely because of those devices that each members of the scribbles had. I think she knew about that because she already questioned the two paladins thoroughly, then fed them amnesia potion to forget the interview, five times over before the Order crossed her path. You don't need such a big vat of amnesia potion if you want to feed one week's worth of it to ten or so adventurers only once.

Skull the Troll

2022-01-07, 10:57 AM

Not bloody likely. Serini mentioned she know who the OOTS are because of the Sending they kept giving her.

She specifically knew about what happened in Azure City in the throne room and that's more likely because of those devices that each members of the scribbles had.

Doesn't seem remotely like this has anything to do with what they said in the ending of the previous book about activating an artifact.

In fact, this goes in complete opposite to their plan.
The IFCC made it clear that they wanted a race to the last gate. Serini is attempting to prevent that by having their memories wiped.

She has nothing to do with them.

We got to see those devices, its nothing more than a hovering black ball that winks out when a gate breaks. The Azurites had no way of messaging any of the remaining gates that they knew of, so I think there's something else at play here. Something that got past the scrying wards that initially stopped Xykon. I'm guessing Serini did something similar, she scryed on an object she had taken into the throne room or some such.

That makes me think that the Purloined Letter method that the Paladins were using wasn't so great. It's fine for explaining why a room gets guarded but for everyone who already knows the gates exist, all they need to do is send a representative to the king to get access to the room.

Ornithologist

2022-01-07, 10:57 AM

As always, Belkar is worth his weight in comedy gold.

Twice his weight in Comedy gold. He is a halfling after all.

DLcygnet

2022-01-07, 10:59 AM

Hah! Double callback! Very awesome! In Azure City, Shark jumps you! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html)

pearl jam

2022-01-07, 10:59 AM

In real life, shark stomachs contain much stronger acid than human stomachs do. Not important, just an interesting fact.

They don't chew their food to the degree we do so this is likely a necessity.

Zhorn

2022-01-07, 11:03 AM

Hah! Double callback! Very awesome! In Azure City, Shark jumps you! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html)

"You'd be surprised"
I lost it at that line :smallbiggrin:

Quizatzhaderac

2022-01-07, 11:15 AM

I'm beginning to suspect that Belkar respects his elders.

Anyone at all worried about the spilled amnesia juice? Just me? Okay.None of us remember it.

Can somebody translate Serini's offer for me? Is she offering him weed?Jingle-jangle is the sounds coins make when moved around; therefore she has a lot of money.

"Beak wet" is a bird "having a taste". "having a taste" is "having a small share". Birds are not creatures one usually shares drinks with, so the implication is that the birds is sneaking or cheating.

Darth Paul

2022-01-07, 11:20 AM

Suddenly so much about Belkar comes into focus....

Btw, did Haley get hoofed in the front butt? Harsh.

"Front butt"?

danielxcutter

2022-01-07, 11:21 AM

Suddenly so much about Belkar comes into focus....

Y'know, if that early comic stuff about his backstory still applies then it does sound like he had a crappy childhood.

I mean it doesn't absolve him of course, but it does explain a bit.

"Front butt"?

Well I assume they couldn't think of another polite way to say crotch.

elros

2022-01-07, 11:23 AM

INCREDIBLE callback to the acid sharks!
Agreed! O-Chul has been having great call backs the last few strips. If he had to go through all that torture, he might as well get a few good one-liners out of it.

I hope this squashes the "Serini is related to Belkar speculation."

Yxylu

2022-01-07, 11:26 AM

Suddenly so much about Belkar comes into focus....

I did a quick dive into the archive and cross-referenced with my spreadsheet (nerd!), and from what I can see, the only time Belkar actually attacked another halfling was during the Edition Wars story from Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales when he fought and killed his 4E self. Maybe he’s just averse to attacking his kin.

The MunchKING

2022-01-07, 11:32 AM

INCREDIBLE callback to the acid sharks!

They didn't have acid attacks, did they? They just lived in acid.

hroþila

2022-01-07, 11:33 AM

I don't think Belkar had a crappy childhood. An Evil one, certainly, but the way he talks about it he seems to remember it fondly.

hamishspence

2022-01-07, 11:40 AM

They didn't have acid attacks, did they? They just lived in acid.

The template from Dungeonscape, which The Giant created, gives the monster bonus acid damage with natural attacks, in addition to immunity to acid.

DaOldeWolf

2022-01-07, 11:40 AM

I will say it's interesting to get some insight in Halfling culture.

Duncun

2022-01-07, 11:41 AM

They didn't have acid attacks, did they? They just lived in acid.

They were acid breathing sharks.

Quizatzhaderac

2022-01-07, 11:46 AM

They were acid breathing sharks.Ah, so they had a breath attack, just like black dragons.

Psyren

2022-01-07, 11:48 AM

Y'know, if that early comic stuff about his backstory still applies then it does sound like he had a crappy childhood.

I mean it doesn't absolve him of course, but it does explain a bit.

IIRC the Giant mentioned not being interested in Belkar's tragic backstory in one of the book forewords, but maybe that has changed.

I will say it's interesting to get some insight in Halfling culture.

Yeah I thought Belkar's upbringing was an extreme outlier but maybe they all have wonky morals and he was just more of that.

Thecommander236

2022-01-07, 12:04 PM

Did she just offer Belkar pootang or money?

Lexible

2022-01-07, 12:04 PM

No, Luk— Belkar, I am your grandmother!

I don't think Belkar had a crappy childhood. An Evil one, certainly, but the way he talks about it he seems to remember it fondly.

I think Word of Giant to the effect that Belkar's childhood was so messed up that he does not want to think of it, let alone write it into the comic has been made in a few places.

Lvl 2 Expert

2022-01-07, 12:04 PM

Belkar is a deep enough character to have a family, which is relevant to the plot, and also he might actually be the great-grandchild (or regular grandchild, but it seems like one of them would realize that) of an important quest NPC?

Mariele

2022-01-07, 12:05 PM

I don’t think Belkar’s upbringing is representative of halfling culture any more than, say, Haley’s upbringing is of human culture.

Hilarious strip. Belkar definitely has a soft spot for fellow halflings, doesn’t he?

pearl jam

2022-01-07, 12:06 PM

Did she just offer Belkar pootang or money?

money (10 characters)

littlebum2002

2022-01-07, 12:12 PM

The template from Dungeonscape, which The Giant created, gives the monster bonus acid damage with natural attacks, in addition to immunity to acid.

What's the point of having an acid attack when you live in acid?

hamishspence

2022-01-07, 12:18 PM

It's a little bit of bonus damage, reflecting just how much the acid has suffused an originally normal kind of creature.

Ron Miel

2022-01-07, 12:19 PM

Hah, i'm loving the Belkar Serreni interactions.

Wait you don't think there's any chance Serreni was going under an alias whilst wondering around do you? She couldn't really be granny Bitterleaf right?

Come now, what are the odds of that? Nothing coincidental has ever happened in this comic.

Do you guys seriously think that Belkar doesn’t recognize granny bitterleaf? Like, he knows what his grandma looks like, even trollified.

Also, Granny Bitterleaf is senile, and in a nursing home, if she's still alive.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html

DaOldeWolf

2022-01-07, 12:24 PM

Yeah I thought Belkar's upbringing was an extreme outlier but maybe they all have wonky morals and he was just more of that.

At the very least, family and especially elder people seem to be important to halfling culture.

Quizatzhaderac

2022-01-07, 12:33 PM

What's the point of having an acid attack when you live in acid?Basic D&D logic indicates that they have a natural enemy.

Loki created a race of evil sharks who's mouths spit nothing but lye.

But more seriously, I'd assume the idea of putting them in a book is so non-acid oriented adventurers can have a very acid themed encounter.

Zoologically, it would be like the fact that a regular shark attack will cause water damage to anything susceptible to it. it's not that the shark is specially designed to cause water damage; it's that it would need to be specially designed to not get water everywhere it goes.

SlashDash

2022-01-07, 12:33 PM

While I agree with the rest of what you said, this is highly unlikely; the Sapphire Guard also has the device but had no idea what happened to Lirian's Gate.

The Saphire guard took an oath not to look into the other gates. It was a big plot point and all.

Though thinking it over, Dorukon had no idea what happened to Lirian.

So possibly Serini has something else up her sleeve.

Psyren

2022-01-07, 12:45 PM

At the very least, family and especially elder people seem to be important to halfling culture.

Well that, but also the "incites betrayal" thing might not be that out of the ordinary. That could be more a comment on the Bitterleaf family than halflings as a whole, but...

Shining Wrath

2022-01-07, 01:22 PM

Belkar was a sociopath - comparable to the love child of Sauron and Cruella de Ville. He's gradually redeeming himself. We shall, eventually, see where his soul is sent.
Sociopaths don't just happen, and it appears that Grandma Bitterleaf was emotionally cruel (insults) and manipulative to the extent of bribing family members.
I very much doubt we want to see much of Belkar's childhood. It might be interesting in a "watching video of a fatal car wreck" sort of way, but it wouldn't be funny.

hamishspence

2022-01-07, 01:27 PM

"Aunt Judy" is another family member implied to be somewhat Belkar-ish:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html

Fyraltari

2022-01-07, 01:28 PM

We shall, eventually, see where his soul is sent.

I suspect, it'll remain ambiguous. Although "on the East of the Great Wheel" seems a sure bet.

DaOldeWolf

2022-01-07, 01:32 PM

Well that, but also the "incites betrayal" thing might not be that out of the ordinary. That could be more a comment on the Bitterleaf family than halflings as a whole, but...

That could be true. It would be kinda funny to hear that Halfling in OotS are actually prone to discussing betrayals as a casual thing. :smallbiggrin:

KorvinStarmast

2022-01-07, 01:41 PM

"Aunt Judy" is another family member implied to be somewhat Belkar-ish:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html That also is the sole family member, by name, that I can recall.

Belkar has now jumped the Shark.

TuringTest

2022-01-07, 01:43 PM

I can't be the only one thinking that this jokes about Serini reminding Blekar of his grandmother has to be the author trolling all the people who kept guessing they are related, right?

No, you can count me in.

Yeah, it's like that "everyone's-a-little-bit-racist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbud8rLejLM)" trope where people keep asking people of a different ethnicity whether they know each other, or if are related.

gatemansgc

2022-01-07, 01:43 PM

Belkar seems almost confused. Btw, did Haley get hoofed in the front butt? Harsh.

omg she did! i didn't even notice! XD

BloodSquirrel

2022-01-07, 01:47 PM

I can't be the only one thinking that this jokes about Serini reminding Blekar of his grandmother has to be the author trolling all the people who kept guessing they are related, right?

I doubt it. When people get an idea stuck in their head, it's common for them to look at everything they see as a confirmation of it.

Belkar is just less angry and more cooperative than he used to be- the last two books have had a major impact on him. He's not supposed to be stabbing Serini right now, which has been his default way of interacting with people for a long time now, so he's defaulting to something new that's still within character- making sarcastic commentary.

Serini reminding him of his grandmother seems kind of natural to me. He hasn't been around another halfling in a long time, and Belkar does have a kind of respect for cantankerous behavior.

Meanwhile, Serini's dedication to a clearly lost battle which losing has minimal consequences for her is impressively hard-headed. Her amnesia potion is gone, and even if she escaped the Order is going to release the paladins, find out what her plan was, and permanently thwart it by cast send and letting someone who is beyond Serini's reach what's up. There really is no win condition for her at this point.

Edreyn

2022-01-07, 01:50 PM

- Belkar, I am your great-grandmother!
- No. I killed my great-grandmother.

I also confess, I got really dirty thoughts. I thought that "wet beak" is an invitation to the... uh... date.

Psyren

2022-01-07, 02:07 PM

"Aunt Judy" is another family member implied to be somewhat Belkar-ish:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html

Great callback :smallsmile:

I suspect, it'll remain ambiguous. Although "on the East of the Great Wheel" seems a sure bet.

I assume that's the Chaos side?

That could be true. It would be kinda funny to hear that Halfling in OotS are actually prone to discussing betrayals as a casual thing. :smallbiggrin:

To be fair, the only other one we know onscreen IIRC (other than Frudu, who may be fictional in-universe) is Hank, so too small a sample size to determine.

I also confess, I got really dirty thoughts. I thought that "wet beak" is an invitation to the... uh... date.

Can somebody translate Serini's offer for me? Is she offering him weed?

Did she just offer Belkar pootang or money?

Part of me wishes I could read this comic through the lens of a non-American at times :smallbiggrin:

chy03001

2022-01-07, 02:11 PM

"You'd be surprised"

Dead :-D

KorvinStarmast

2022-01-07, 02:12 PM

hamishspence

2022-01-07, 02:13 PM

To be fair, the only other one we know onscreen IIRC (other than Frudu, who may be fictional in-universe) is Hank, so too small a sample size to determine.

Xykon's TeeVo did record Frudu:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html

and he turned down Roy's offer of a place in the party in Origin of PCs.

There was a comic where Belkar mentioned something about grandma Bitterleaf, or Granny Bitterleaf, and I think her recipe for something, but I am not sure I want to search hundreds of strips to find it.

Last panel of page 1 of strip 200:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html

pearl jam

2022-01-07, 02:17 PM

In other news, after years without them my avatar finally has arms, though along with them came an art update that made it a bit less OOTS-like.

[edit: previous for reference]
https://en.gravatar.com/userimage/21564987/f29cbe8bc6e9a097a3aec6daee5787ef.png?size=200

Mathguy

2022-01-07, 02:18 PM

There was a comic where Belkar mentioned something about grandma Bitterleaf, or Granny Bitterleaf, and I think her recipe for something, but I am not sure I want to search hundreds of strips to find it.
It is nice to see that his "respect for his elders" is somewhat consistent (Shojo and Serini); so far, we can conclude that he has respect for eccentric old people.

1) when you have Belkar’s lifestyle, reaching old age is far more impressive and admirable
2) why do folks keep overlooking that people have two grandmas and only one is likely to share their last name?

Arin

2022-01-07, 02:18 PM

I doubt it. When people get an idea stuck in their head, it's common for them to look at everything they see as a confirmation of it....

Ordinarily I'd be 100% on board with this, but speaking for the forum, I feel pretty called out by V's commentary in Panel 5 concerning Razor and Bloodfeast. ;) Given that context, the idea of a reference to everyone's relative theory seems a lot more plausible.

Psyren

2022-01-07, 02:22 PM

Xykon's TeeVo did record Frudu:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html

and he turned down Roy's offer of a place in the party in Origin of PCs.

I knew about the Teevo, but I thought he might be a fictional character in-universe anyway. I had forgotten the OtOoPCs appearance however, so Frudu does exist.

There was a comic where Belkar mentioned something about grandma Bitterleaf, or Granny Bitterleaf, and I think her recipe for something, but I am not sure I want to search hundreds of strips to find it.

I think that was Mama Bitterleaf rather than Granny. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html)

KorvinStarmast

2022-01-07, 02:24 PM

I think that was Mama Bitterleaf rather than Granny. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html) Could be that.
But I think the grandma reference I was remembering was from BRitF (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html)

AstralFire

2022-01-07, 02:25 PM

Man, Elan would be so proud of V right now

Dewin Dwl

2022-01-07, 02:26 PM

Matt620

2022-01-07, 02:43 PM

Aww, I'm with Belkar slightly. My grandma taught me to gamble (and cheat and gambling)

Mathguy

2022-01-07, 02:44 PM

Serini is literally (half-)trolling us.
As a math guy I must object, you used the word “literally” but she is only one-quarter troll, according to Xykon’s observation “I made a theee-eighthsling!”.

gerryq

2022-01-07, 02:45 PM

"Getting your beak wet" is an avian form of "getting a taste". In the context of Serini having a lot of money, it means Belkar would get to sample the money, i.e., she's offering a bribe.

She's obviously offering money, but like some other posters, I did wonder if she was offering a taste of her honey too...

137beth

2022-01-07, 02:47 PM

KorvinStarmast

2022-01-07, 02:49 PM

What does it mean to get your beak wet (https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/wet+your+beak#:~:text=To%20partake%20in%20part%20o f,round%20to%20wet%20his%20beak.)?

To partake in part of the profits of another person's business, usually as a result of extortion. (Used especially in reference to organized crime, particularly "protection money" paid to the Italian Mafia.)
Trust me, you're better off just giving him what he wants whenever he comes round to wet his beak.
See also the verb "to wet one's beak"
wet one's beak (third-person singular simple present wets one's beak, present participle wetting one's beak, simple past and past participle wet one's beak or wetted one's beak)
(idiomatic) To drink a beverage.
(idiomatic, gangster slang) To take one's share from the financial proceeds of illicit activity.
Synonyms
(drink a beverage): wet one's whistle
(take one's share from illicit financial activity): get a piece of the pie, get a piece of the action

Belkar seems almost confused. Btw, did Haley get hoofed in the front butt? Harsh. I zoomed in a little and it appears to me that Serini's heel reached back far enough to hit Haley in the glutes. I say that due to us seeing Serini's foot going past Haley's rearmost leg (based on stance/angle) which to my perspective (yeah, it's a 2D medium) means that we are seeing the foot hit Haley's behind.
It took me a moment to see what you were referring to, but I can see that reaction also.

@gerryq:
that would clash with the general tone of the scene

Shoelessgdowar

2022-01-07, 03:19 PM

Hah, i'm loving the Belkar Serreni interactions.
Wait you don't think there's any chance Serreni was going under an alias whilst wondering around do you? She couldn't really be granny Bitterleaf right?

Belkar is conflicted. Serini is bringing back fond memories of his upbringing as a budding sociopath. I wonder if the next strip will feature Serini going "Bitterleaf? BITTERLEAF?" - her expression in the last panel could be thoughtful.
Anyway, the dialogue between the paladins is amusing. "You'd be surprised". I don't think O Chul's memories of acidic sharks are fond ones.

Do you guys seriously think that Belkar doesn’t recognize granny bitterleaf? Like, he knows what his grandma looks like, even trollified.

I can't be the only one thinking that this jokes about Serini reminding Blekar of his grandmother has to be the author trolling all the people who kept guessing they are related, right?

Right. There are enough information aside Serini's surname to ensure that.

He might not recognize grandma's grandma, though. There's a thought.

In the last panel Serini has stopped struggling to escape Haley, and her expression is no longer angry - it might even be thoughtful.
While Serini is not Grandma Bitterleaf, I think the surname "Bitterleaf" means something to her. She knew Grandma back in the day, or she's from a branch of the family, or something.

Serini probably isn't that old. Halflings live longer than humans but only like up to 200 years. That's not long enough for five generations to have passed even by human standards.

No, Luk— Belkar, I am your grandmother!

I think Word of Giant to the effect that Belkar's childhood was so messed up that he does not want to think of it, let alone write it into the comic has been made in a few places.

Belkar is a deep enough character to have a family, which is relevant to the plot, and also he might actually be the great-grandchild (or regular grandchild, but it seems like one of them would realize that) of an important quest NPC?

Also, Granny Bitterleaf is senile, and in a nursing home, if she's still alive.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html

- Belkar, I am your great-grandmother!
- No. I killed my great-grandmother.

I also confess, I got really dirty thoughts. I thought that "wet beak" is an invitation to the... uh... date.

1) when you have Belkar’s lifestyle, reaching old age is far more impressive and admirable
2) why do folks keep overlooking that people have two grandmas and only one is likely to share their last name?

Belkar has two Grandmothers, only one who would be named Granny Bitterleaf (and whose maiden name would have been something else besides Bitterleaf before marrying Grampy Bitterleaf) (Props to Mathguy for making most of this point first, so glad I wasn't the only one to realize this), in addition there are potential for siblings (again, Granny Bitterleaf could easily be Serini's Half-Sister... or is it Quarter-Sister, or Sixth-Sister, or Eight-Sister, or Six Sixteenths-Sister... what precisely is the term for a Half-Troll/Half-Halfling Half-Sister of a Halfling?), friends, sixth cousin eight times removed on his mother's father's side, generations early than Granny Bitterleaf, their siblings, friends, ex-lovers, rivals. Belkar and Serini could easily be related directly or indirectly a myriad of ways through Granny Bitterleaf.

Granny Bitterleaf could easily be Tahini Toormuck-Bitterleaf, middle sister of Serini and Bellini Toormuck, Mother of Bakarr Bitterleaf (Belkar's dad, Confectioner and Pastry Chef) and Judy Bitterleaf (Aunt Judy), and wife of Bikarr (Halfling Artificer specializing in making magical steel horses) Bitterleaf.

Serini is part troll now, so obviously the author is trolling us:smalltongue:

Serini is literally (half-)trolling us.

Maybe she is Quarter-Trolling us, cause she is a Half-Troll/Halfling...

halfeye

2022-01-07, 03:19 PM

Shoelessgdowar

2022-01-07, 03:23 PM

Generations, such as the Baby boomers, last 20 years. Technically a human grandmother can be under 40 years old.

Technically a Human Grandmother can be under 30 Years old, but that gets into some really icky and morally ambiguous areas... which were far more common centuries ago, but still occur today on rare occasions.

pendell

2022-01-07, 04:00 PM

Psyren

2022-01-07, 04:31 PM

So the kettle got knocked to the ground and spilled. Here I was wondering if it would be a Chekhov's kettle where someone would lose their memory, but it appears no such thing is going to occur.

I'm glad Razor got sent back safely! That's a cool Paladin summon.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I'd say her threatening to swan dive into the cauldron and it getting knocked over in the scuffle satisfied Chekov perfectly. In other words, brandishing Chekov's gun at the heroes, but getting tackled/arrested before you can fire it, still counts.

b_jonas

2022-01-07, 04:54 PM

I think Word of Giant to the effect that Belkar's childhood was so messed up that he does not want to think of it, let alone write it into the comic has been made in a few places. That's not what the Giant said. He said in the foreword of OtOoPC that if he wrote a messed up back story for Belkar that wouldn't make his evil actions better for the readers. Belkar could have had a nice loving family for all we know. And the Giant said elsewhere that he doesn't invent parts of the setting background that are not necessary for writing the story anywhere, so I don't believe that he invented a messed up childhood for Belkar that he never writes about either.

Though I'm probably missing some other Giant quote of Belkar's back story besides the three that I mentioned.

Ekim One-Eye

2022-01-07, 04:55 PM

INCREDIBLE callback to the acid sharks!

Wow...I'd forgotted about those til you said that!

b_jonas

2022-01-07, 05:11 PM

Belkar does have a kind of respect for cantankerous behavior. Also, in Belkar's words, “I mean, I actually LIKED that guy [Shojo]! He made fun of Roy right to his face!”

Nightcanon

2022-01-07, 05:16 PM

Belkar is conflicted. Serini is bringing back fond memories of his upbringing as a budding sociopath. I wonder if the next strip will feature Serini going "Bitterleaf? BITTERLEAF?" - her expression in the last panel could be thoughtful.

Anyway, the dialogue between the paladins is amusing. "You'd be surprised". I don't think O Chul's memories of acidic sharks are fond ones.

I'll admit that I initially read the 'Belkar!' as coming from Serini rather than Haley, but I'm not looking for a family reunion here. If Belkar remember Granny Bitterleaf, he he would remember if she went off to be an adventurer, surely?

Evil_Lamp_6

2022-01-07, 06:25 PM

INCREDIBLE callback to the acid sharks!

And the lava breathing ones too! The problem is, you can't see the action through the lava.

BruceGee

2022-01-07, 07:30 PM

It would be kinda funny to hear that Halfling in OotS are actually prone to discussing betrayals as a casual thing. :smallbiggrin:

No chance. The Giant has made it very clear that all intelligent species have a wide range of alignments. If he has gone to great lengths to push back against tropes like "All goblins are evil" or "All drow are evil," then he certainly isn't about to suggest those kinds of racial tendencies for halflings. After all, we know in-canon that people expect them to be jolly.

KorvinStarmast

2022-01-07, 08:50 PM

After all, we know in-canon that people expect them to be jolly. Jolly can be an alignment, or a tendency.

danielxcutter

2022-01-07, 08:56 PM

Halflings being just another mortal race like humans and elves and goblins is not exactly incompatible with Belkar’s family being royally screwed up tbh.

Wraithfighter

2022-01-07, 09:00 PM

Just popping in to say how much I love Lien.

Seriously, she's just the best. I don't care if she's mid-level and would barely be a speedbump to Xykon, she's just the best...

Ruck

2022-01-07, 09:22 PM

I can't be the only one thinking that this jokes about Serini reminding Blekar of his grandmother has to be the author trolling all the people who kept guessing they are related, right?

Rich has said he doesn't read the forum discussions or predictions anymore, but I also suspect that it would not be hard for him to assume that some people would be speculating that.

1) when you have Belkar’s lifestyle, reaching old age is far more impressive and admirable
2) why do folks keep overlooking that people have two grandmas and only one is likely to share their last name?

I'll ask again if anyone can think of a reason it benefits the story for Belkar and Serini to be related.

Also, Serini is offering Belkar money, people. I get that idioms don't always translate, but lord, some of the suggestions in this thread... I wish I could find that quote about Rich saying no matter how hard he tries not to sexualize his women characters, the readership will do it for him anyway.

Edward15

2022-01-07, 09:46 PM

Vaarasuvius's comments really hit below the belt for Belkar. After all, he tried to let loose his gigantic beast; it wasn't his fault that Sunny wouldn't cooperate with him.

Shining Wrath

2022-01-07, 09:56 PM

Rich has said he doesn't read the forum discussions or predictions anymore, but I also suspect that it would not be hard for him to assume that some people would be speculating that.

I'll ask again if anyone can think of a reason it benefits the story for Belkar and Serini to be related.

Also, Serini is offering Belkar money, people. I get that idioms don't always translate, but lord, some of the suggestions in this thread... I wish I could find that quote about Rich saying no matter how hard he tries not to sexualize his women characters, the readership will do it for him anyway.

I can see the story being moved forward if Serini decides to trust Belkar because the name "Bitterleaf" has meaning to her - relative, friend, mentor, whatever.
I agree that people sexualize female characters far too much, but at least some people who weren't native English speakers didn't recognize the idiom "Dip your beak".

PattThe

2022-01-07, 10:42 PM

Anyone at all worried about the spilled amnesia juice? Just me? Okay.
[basically]No DM allows you to gain a hit point from only a little bit of the healing potion bottle. Same for the pool. Stepping in a thin film isn't exactly a dose.

Ruck

2022-01-07, 10:52 PM

I can see the story being moved forward if Serini decides to trust Belkar because the name "Bitterleaf" has meaning to her - relative, friend, mentor, whatever.

I could see it, but I think it's a relatively flimsy reason compared to other reasons that would be possible, and would be a bit of a contrivance, a significance invented solely to resolve this problem. Heck, even now it seems like that trust might come simply because he's a halfling.

I agree that people sexualize female characters far too much, but at least some people who weren't native English speakers didn't recognize the idiom "Dip your beak".

Idiom or not, I'm still a little disturbed that Serini's offer came after Belkar compared her to his grandmother, and people still jumped to sex.

Anitar

2022-01-07, 10:54 PM

I agree that people sexualize female characters far too much, but at least some people who weren't native English speakers didn't recognize the idiom "Dip your beak".

I am a native English speaker and still didn't recognize the idiom.
(Didn't stop me from knowing that her offer is monetary.)

DaOldeWolf

2022-01-07, 11:57 PM

Also, Serini is offering Belkar money, people. I get that idioms don't always translate, but lord, some of the suggestions in this thread... I wish I could find that quote about Rich saying no matter how hard he tries not to sexualize his women characters, the readership will do it for him anyway.

I agree that people sexualize female characters far too much, but at least some people who weren't native English speakers didn't recognize the idiom "Dip your beak".

I would act surprised but this is the internet where ships can be born from characters being together for one scene (sometimes with little to no interaction between the characters), where everything gets fetished or sexualized at one point or another and where its hard to reign the minds of people. Just to be clear, I am not talking about right or wrong, I am talking about whether it should be that much of a surprise.

Baelzar

2022-01-08, 01:04 AM

Did Serini just proposition Belkar? That read like a proposition.She said get your beak wet, not get your carrot wet.

Liquor Box

2022-01-08, 01:37 AM

No chance. The Giant has made it very clear that all intelligent species have a wide range of alignments. If he has gone to great lengths to push back against tropes like "All goblins are evil" or "All drow are evil," then he certainly isn't about to suggest those kinds of racial tendencies for halflings. After all, we know in-canon that people expect them to be jolly.

DaOldeWolf said "prone to evil", which is not the same thing as saying "all halflings are evil", instead it's like saying "halflings are usually evil". The rule that "goblins are usually evil" does exist in OotS, it has been explicitly referenced. So halflings being usually evil wouldn't be contrary to any pushback by the Giant.

I doubt halflings are usually evil though - there has been no hint prior.

I am a native English speaker and still didn't recognize the idiom.
(Didn't stop me from knowing that her offer is monetary.)

I didn't recognize the idiom either. I thought it sounded sexual, but guessed it must be monetary from the context.

Also, Serini is offering Belkar money, people. I get that idioms don't always translate, but lord, some of the suggestions in this thread... I wish I could find that quote about Rich saying no matter how hard he tries not to sexualize his women characters, the readership will do it for him anyway.

He sexualises them (particularly Hayley) plenty. It's even mentioned in Hayley's TV Tropes page.

Ruck

2022-01-08, 04:12 AM

He sexualises them (particularly Hayley) plenty. It's even mentioned in Hayley's TV Tropes page.

*Haley, but the quote is very specific to times he tries not to do that. It's in reference to Laurin, who is not sexualized in any way whatsoever, and yet people frequently speculated that the favor she wanted from Tarquin was sex.

Liquor Box

2022-01-08, 04:46 AM

*Haley, but the quote is very specific to times he tries not to do that. It's in reference to Laurin, who is not sexualized in any way whatsoever, and yet people frequently speculated that the favor she wanted from Tarquin was sex.

I see. Well it still feels a bit Rich to sexualise some characters in a story and then be a bit judgmental when people assume another character's motive is sexual.

danielxcutter

2022-01-08, 04:57 AM

I mean with Haley it at least makes more sense. Serini is literally old enough to be someone’s grandma though.

hroþila

2022-01-08, 05:47 AM

I see. Well it still feels a bit Rich to sexualise some characters in a story and then be a bit judgmental when people assume another character's motive is sexual.
Rich sexualized those characters like a decade before Laurin appeared and he's talked quite a bit about why he regrets it, but regardless, some people are just more sexual and that's alright. The problem is not sexualized characters in a vacuum, the problem is when female characters are sexualized by default.

Ruck

2022-01-08, 06:06 AM

I see. Well it still feels a bit Rich to sexualise some characters in a story and then be a bit judgmental when people assume another character's motive is sexual.

The problem is not sexualized characters in a vacuum, the problem is when female characters are sexualized by default.

Said better than I could. What reason is there to assume Serini or Laurin's motive is sexual, other than "they're women"?

Ranadiel

2022-01-08, 07:43 AM

Also, Serini is offering Belkar money, people. I get that idioms don't always translate, but lord, some of the suggestions in this thread... I wish I could find that quote about Rich saying no matter how hard he tries not to sexualize his women characters, the readership will do it for him anyway.

I don't think people are sexualizing Serini, I think they are expressing confusion because she is saying something that they think sounds sexual while thinking it sounds out of place either because they aren't viewing her in that light or because it feels off for the tone of the comic. If people were sexualizing her then the comments would be a lot different as there would be less confusion and more...reaction (positive or negative) to the idea of that pairing.

And I can certainly see how someone would interpret the phrase that way. The phrase, "don't dip your pen in the company inkwell," likewise refers to getting an object wet, but is referring to something very different than money.

Liquor Box

2022-01-08, 08:01 AM

Rich sexualized those characters like a decade before Laurin appeared and he's talked quite a bit about why he regrets it, but regardless, some people are just more sexual and that's alright. The problem is not sexualized characters in a vacuum, the problem is when female characters are sexualized by default.

I know he's made some comments about regretting some aspect of his very early strips (perhaps sexualisation of Hayley). But the example from TV Tropes was her lying naked with her long hair in Tarquin's castle. Perhaps he's made some change since then?

Said better than I could. What reason is there to assume Serini or Laurin's motive is sexual, other than "they're women"?

I have no idea about Laurin, but what Serini said sounded sexual on the face of the words. If a male had referred to getting their beak wet I think people would also have assumed it was sexual. I certainly don't think there's cause of falling into the common (around here) trap of assuming that people's opinions are motivated by sexism (or other), but rather because that is one of the meanings of the idiom.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=To%20get%20one%27s%20beak%20wet

The phrase has since been adapted to mean 'to moisten one's genitals through acts linked (but not restricted to) coitus'.
Man's got to get his beak wet!
Did you hear about Jim? It's been a while but man got his beak wet last weekend!
'Have you seen Tom?' 'No I think he's getting his beak wet in your bedroom'

That may not have been a meaning you were aware of but I suggest there were some people aware of that meaning and not the one you are familiar with. Or were familiar with neither but knew the very common expression referring to getting one's x wet, and extrapolated from that (and bearing in mind the comic's previous sexualisation of female, and male, characters).

Metastachydium

2022-01-08, 08:31 AM

If a male had referred to getting their beak wet I think people would also have assumed it was sexual.

I, for one, would have assumed he might be a birdy who drank some water because he was thirsty.

elros

2022-01-08, 08:46 AM

The movie Godfather 2 used the phrase (https://memes.yarn.co/yarn-clip/4ecf890c-723d-426b-847b-7c84e7f5d06b), but the movie is old enough that most people here probably have not seen it.

pearl jam

2022-01-08, 09:03 AM

I know he's made some comments about regretting some aspect of his very early strips (perhaps sexualisation of Hayley). But the example from TV Tropes was her lying naked with her long hair in Tarquin's castle. Perhaps he's made some change since then?

I have no idea about Laurin, but what Serini said sounded sexual on the face of the words. If a male had referred to getting their beak wet I think people would also have assumed it was sexual. I certainly don't think there's cause of falling into the common (around here) trap of assuming that people's opinions are motivated by sexism (or other), but rather because that is one of the meanings of the idiom.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=To%20get%20one%27s%20beak%20wet

That may not have been a meaning you were aware of but I suggest there were some people aware of that meaning and not the one you are familiar with. Or were familiar with neither but knew the very common expression referring to getting one's x wet, and extrapolated from that (and bearing in mind the comic's previous sexualisation of female, and male, characters).

That urban dictionary citation is somebody crediting themselves with coining a phrase they most certainly didn't coin. And then also crediting himself with giving it a sexual interpretation. :smalltongue:

brian 333

2022-01-08, 09:10 AM

Sadly, all my phone will show is Belkar insulting me. I see Bite Sized in the archives, but for me, 1251 has been replaced.

danielxcutter

2022-01-08, 09:18 AM

Honestly I actually thought she was trying to tempt him with some kind of halfling liquor at first. Y'know, liquor, drinking, wet?

Liquor Box

2022-01-08, 09:30 AM

Honestly I actually thought she was trying to tempt him with some kind of halfling liquor at first. Y'know, liquor, drinking, wet?

Having a drink was another to the meanings a Google search turned up, besides the sexual one, and the one based on getting a cut. A fourth was checking something to see if it was perilous - a bit like checking the waters.

mjasghar

2022-01-08, 10:07 AM

Given that a human generation is on average 25 years, 200 years would be around 8 human generations.

Sereni could plausibly be much younger than 200 though - halflings can "die of old age" as early as 105 (compared to 72 for a human).

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age

Roughly 66 years had gone by since the Order of the Scribble's quest, when Shojo gave exposition, roughly a year (minus a couple of weeks or so) have gone by since then (so 67 years) and Halfling Rogues normally begin adventuring between 22 and 28. So, if Serini had been 22 when she joined the Order of the Scribble, she could be as young as 89.

She could of course have been much older than 28 when she joined the Scribblers.

Iirc the scribblers were already epic when Soon recruited them.

danielxcutter

2022-01-08, 10:09 AM

Iirc the scribblers were already epic when Soon recruited them.

I don't see anything that suggests that at all. They were likely epic after all that stuff, but so will the OotS at this rate, honestly.

Ron Miel

2022-01-08, 10:19 AM

danielxcutter

2022-01-08, 10:23 AM

It is not a phrase I have ever encountered before. What does it mean?

From the context I imagine it's something on the lines of "don't sleep with the person who sleeps with everyone in the company".

Daibhid C

2022-01-08, 11:00 AM

2) why do folks keep overlooking that people have two grandmas and only one is likely to share their last name?

Because it doesn't seem relevant to whether or not Serini is specifically "Grannie Bitterleaf". Maybe Belkar's mother's maiden name was Toormuck, but since Serini didn't remind him of his Grannie Toormuck, this strip doesn't provide any supporting evidence for that.

Anyway, regardless of who she may or may not be related to, bribing, or propositioning, I think the key point of this strip is Serini contunuing to insist that these incompetent amateurs need to be removed because, while them achieving their aims would be a good thing, they simply aren't capable of doing so. To which the obvious rejoinder is "So how come they keep beating you, Ms Epic-Level Rogue?"

BarakDeathBlade

2022-01-08, 11:02 AM

As always, Belkar is worth his weight in comedy gold.

Agreed, but the dude doesn't even weigh enough to pull a noose taut.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html

Edit for horrible spelling error.

Peelee

2022-01-08, 11:06 AM

From the context I imagine it's something on the lines of "don't sleep with the person who sleeps with everyone in the company".

Bang on the money.

ETA: I misread that. No, it's simply "don't sleep with anyone in the company".

The MunchKING

2022-01-08, 11:13 AM

From the context I imagine it's something on the lines of "don't sleep with the person who sleeps with everyone in the company".

The way I heard it was more like "Don't sleep with the people who work for you in the company". Because of the power differences causing a lot of issues.

Duncun

2022-01-08, 11:15 AM

Sadly, all my phone will show is Belkar insulting me. I see Bite Sized in the archives, but for me, 1251 has been replaced.

That is a cache issue. Trying clearing your cache. I had to do that on my computer too.

The MunchKING

2022-01-08, 11:16 AM

To which the obvious rejoinder is "So how come they keep beating you, Ms Epic-Level Rogue?"

6 on 1 numbers advantage, which they won't have against Xykon? And obviously Serni thinks that Xykon could totally beat her effortlessly so "Slightly beating her" isn't good enough by a long shot. Especially since Xykon, again, has backup. Which includes a divine spellcaster.

BarakDeathBlade

2022-01-08, 11:20 AM

The way I heard it was more like "Don't sleep with the people who work for you in the company". Because of the power differences causing a lot of issues.

It's more general, don't sleep with co-workers. If the relationship does not work out, and it usually doesn't, the fallout can be bad for all parties involved. Causing unneeded drama at work can lead to you finding new work.

It's male-centered, dipping the "pen" in the "ink" but it works both ways.

Doesn't have to be people who work for you, also applies to people who work with you.

danielxcutter

2022-01-08, 11:20 AM

KorvinStarmast

2022-01-08, 11:34 AM

Vaarasuvius's comments really hit below the belt for Belkar. After all, he tried to let loose his gigantic beast; So who thinks that this sexualizes Belkar? :smallyuk: (That's a turn of phrase that I can see him using as a reference to himself...)

Idiom or not, I'm still a little disturbed that Serini's offer came after Belkar compared her to his grandmother, and people still jumped to sex. She has used a variety of phrases that appear to be Rich's attempt to place her slang expressions into a generation or two previous to the youngsters whom she is talking to (and whose judgment she does not respect). In this strip alone she uses (colloquialisms might be the term I am reaching for):
Horn knucled swizzle brain; leather toed hill dingus; nine silvers for a gold (similar to two bricks shy of a load); all helm and no battle (similar to all hat and no cattle); overgrown galoots (galoot is an epithet you'll see in a number of Westerns from the 40's and 50's, before swearing was common on film); I recall hearing it often as a kid, but it's not much used these days); jingle jangle (guessing a reference to coin); get your beak wet (which I had to look up. I noticed that it was another of those kinds of phrases, but it's not something I instantly recognized - gangster slang from a previous generation fits the pattern).

In short: it's an old person insulting these young whippersnappers, and in general laying her slang on them.

I am a native English speaker and still didn't recognize the idiom.
Likewise, so I looked it up.

Serini is literally old enough to be someone’s grandma though. I know a few ladies in their late 50's who talk pretty raunchily now and again, a few margarita's into an evening - it's the context of the scene that isn't sexual, not the age / generation of the speaker. :smallwink:

I don't think people are sexualizing Serini, I think they are expressing confusion because she is saying something that they think sounds sexual while thinking it sounds out of place either because they aren't viewing her in that light or because it feels off for the tone of the comic. Yeah, and the tone of the scene also. If she had just met Belkar in a tavern the scene might lend itself to some cougar-like interpretation, maybe.

The phrase, "don't dip your pen in the company inkwell," likewise refers to getting an object wet, but is referring to something very different than money. Yeah, and it's good advice.

Sadly, all my phone will show is Belkar insulting me. I see Bite Sized in the archives, but for me, 1251 has been replaced. I had to log out and log back in to get it to swap. On another machine, I hit refresh a few times and it worked.

Metastachydium

2022-01-08, 11:51 AM

6 on 1 numbers advantage, which they won't have against Xykon?

It's actually more like 7 (or 9) on 2 (or 5 + home terrain + the element of surprise), though. A joint effort against Xykon would meanwhile be 11 (+ whatever monsters Serini can spare + home terrain + the element of surprise) on 4, and that doesn't account for the Monster and that all current members of Team Evil have conflicting priorities/agendas.

ziproot

2022-01-08, 11:59 AM

Since apparently one of the other meanings of the expression is to drink a beverage, clearly Serini is offering her backup amnesia potion to Belkar.

Ron Miel

2022-01-08, 12:51 PM

Bang on the money.

Didn't Haley say something about that?

Snails

2022-01-08, 02:47 PM

6 on 1 numbers advantage, which they won't have against Xykon? And obviously Serni thinks that Xykon could totally beat her effortlessly so "Slightly beating her" isn't good enough by a long shot. Especially since Xykon, again, has backup. Which includes a divine spellcaster.

I get your drift, but you are exaggerating more than a little. Serini had allies that were not insignificant to fight those 6 on ground of her choosing. And lost.

This little sub-battle here was 3-on-1 and she basically threw in the towel.

The primary combat advantage of a solo high level Rogue is that you should be able to avoid combats where you do not like the odds. That she got ambushed by a higher level spellcaster is pretty unfortunate, but not indicative of what a team of 6 or 8 or 10 powerful people gunning for Xykon could do. Especially with her help.

And while Team Evil is spelunking around these many tunnels, there is definitely an opportunity to set up an ambush with the Order and a few Paladins and a few monster friends. They may not be able to pick the exact day of the fight, but the opportunity to be ready in one of the tunnels that will get hit within a week is available.

Serini has reasons for thinking the way she does, but she is being swayed by emotions. That is understandable and human(oid). But Haley is tactically and strategically head and shoulder beyond Serini right now. Roy even more so.

Vikenlugaid

2022-01-08, 03:06 PM

I laughed hard at O'chul's line here XD

Also, Belkar is really hilarious, good to see he didn't lose it with his "evilness".

GregTD

2022-01-08, 03:34 PM

This is getting kind of tedious.

"Look Serini, you moron, if we do not stop Xykon, the Gods will destroy the world. So sit down, STFU, and work with us.

"Because otherwise you're going to be counting your jingle jangle in the afterlife."

Vikenlugaid

2022-01-08, 03:55 PM

I did a quick dive into the archive and cross-referenced with my spreadsheet (nerd!), and from what I can see, the only time Belkar actually attacked another halfling was during the Edition Wars story from Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales when he fought and killed his 4E self. Maybe he’s just averse to attacking his kin.

Wow, is really interesting couse in strip 611 he didnt even try to attack the halfing rogue, which is killed by the cleric instead...

BaronOfHell

2022-01-08, 04:38 PM

I wonder, from a d&d game perspective, how certain could Lien be that Serini wouldn't have been transported to the Celestial Realm inside Razor's stomach?

Vikenlugaid

2022-01-08, 05:19 PM

They still outnumber him, and also have his spell list. Serini is inherently operating on the principle that nobody is ever going to defeat him so nobody should ever even try.

Not really, Serini wouldn't have any problem if they were going to attack Xykon anywhere FAR from the last gate.

And they really outnumber him?

Team Evil: Xykon, Redcloak, Oona, Greyview and MITD. 5, not counting the rest of the bugbears.

OOTS: Roy, Belkar, Durkon, Haley, Elan, Vaarsuvius (infernals would pull them in the final battle if they are going to win) and Minrah. 7 - 1 = 6... only one more. Not even close to compensate Xykon's difference on level.

This is getting kind of tedious.

"Look Serini, you moron, if we do not stop Xykon, the Gods will destroy the world. So sit down, STFU, and work with us.

"Because otherwise you're going to be counting your jingle jangle in the afterlife."

"Ok, I prefer to count my jingle jangle in the afterlife than being erased from existence by the snarl if you destroy the gate"

Why people still forget that the gods destroying the world is not the same than the Snarl destroying it? Is like the difference between a programmed demolition and a terrorist attack...

Liquor Box

2022-01-08, 05:43 PM

Not really, Serini wouldn't have any problem if they were going to attack Xykon anywhere FAR from the last gate.

That's not really an option as Xykon is not some place far from the last gate. The question is whether they attack him here or do nothing. And Serini thinks that because she and two of her friends (each acting alone) couldn't beat Xykon noone can.

And they really outnumber him?

Team Evil: Xykon, Redcloak, Oona, Greyview and MITD. 5, not counting the rest of the bugbears.

OOTS: Roy, Belkar, Durkon, Haley, Elan, Vaarsuvius (infernals would pull them in the final battle if they are going to win) and Minrah. 7 - 1 = 6... only one more. Not even close to compensate Xykon's difference on level.

Yes they outnumber him, by more than 2-1 if you count consistently.

Based on what Serini knows, the Order outnumbers them 9* to 4*.

If we are going to count V out based on what Serini doesn't know, then we should also count MitD out. So it becomes 8 to 3.

* nine - The Order + minrah + the two paladins
** four - Xykon, Redcloak, MitD and Oona. Greyview isn't a separate character, he is Oona's class feature in the same way that Blood feast is Belkar's - so either count neither or both.

DaOldeWolf

2022-01-08, 05:49 PM

Not really, Serini wouldn't have any problem if they were going to attack Xykon anywhere FAR from the last gate.

And they really outnumber him?

Team Evil: Xykon, Redcloak, Oona, Greyview and MITD. 5, not counting the rest of the bugbears.

OOTS: Roy, Belkar, Durkon, Haley, Elan, Vaarsuvius (infernals would pull them in the final battle if they are going to win) and Minrah. 7 - 1 = 6... only one more. Not even close to compensate Xykon's difference on level.

"Ok, I prefer to count my jingle jangle in the afterlife than being erased from existence by the snarl if you destroy the gate"

Why people still forget that the gods destroying the world is not the same than the Snarl destroying it? Is like the difference between a programmed demolition and a terrorist attack...

Since she knows the paladins are working with the Order, you need to add at least Lirian and O-chul to the equation.

Bacon Elemental

2022-01-08, 07:09 PM

Greyview isn't a separate character, he is Oona's class feature in the same way that Blood feast is Belkar's - so either count neither or both.

I thought Mr Scruffy was Belkar's animal companion :tongue:

Fyraltari

2022-01-08, 07:10 PM

I thought Mr Scruffy was Belkar's animal companion :tongue:

Nah, Belkar is Mr. Scruffy's.

Bacon Elemental

2022-01-08, 07:21 PM

Nah, Belkar is Mr. Scruffy's.

How on earth could I forget!

Clistenes

2022-01-08, 07:57 PM

And I can certainly see how someone would interpret the phrase that way. The phrase, "don't dip your pen in the company inkwell," likewise refers to getting an object wet, but is referring to something very different than money.

I Spain they say "No pongas la polla donde tengas la olla", literally meaning "don't put your **** in the pot where you cook your food".

What it really means is: "don't sleep around in the place where you are earning your livelihood".

Edward15

2022-01-08, 08:00 PM

So who thinks that this sexualizes Belkar? :smallyuk: (That's a turn of phrase that I can see him using as a reference to himself...)
Ugh, I had hoped I didn't word that so it didn't sound like an innuendo.

Ruck

2022-01-08, 10:34 PM

In short: it's an old person insulting these young whippersnappers, and in general laying her slang on them.

I understood that, so I'm not quite sure why you're quoting me, because I had no complaints or confusion about the dialogue, merely some of the reader reactions to it.

"Ok, I prefer to count my jingle jangle in the afterlife than being erased from existence by the snarl if you destroy the gate"

Why people still forget that the gods destroying the world is not the same than the Snarl destroying it? Is like the difference between a programmed demolition and a terrorist attack...

1)The gods have expressed their confidence (or, some of them, anyway) that they can undo the world and save the souls before the Snarl gets them even if the last gate is blown.

2)Serini's continued emphasis has been on the importance of preserving this world; she's said nothing about the afterlife.

Didn't Haley say something about that?

Nice.

Peelee

2022-01-08, 10:37 PM

1)The gods have expressed their confidence (or, some of them, anyway) that they can undo the world and save the souls before the Snarl gets them even if the last gate is blown.

Devils advocate: Serini would have no way of knowing that.

Ruck

2022-01-08, 10:49 PM

Devils advocate: Serini would have no way of knowing that.

Probably not. But I wasn't really addressing Serini's belief there; I was addressing Vikenlugaid's. (Well, I was addressing Serini's in the sense that Vikenlugaid's hypothetical dialogue was not a belief Serini has expressed.)

More relevant to what Serini believes is her commitment that the world not be destroyed at all, so, yes, I think "If Xykon takes the Gate, the gods will destroy the world anyway" would be relevant to her.

Drake Halfmoon

2022-01-08, 11:48 PM

Not really, Serini wouldn't have any problem if they were going to attack Xykon anywhere FAR from the last gate.

And they really outnumber him?

Team Evil: Xykon, Redcloak, Oona, Greyview and MITD. 5, not counting the rest of the bugbears.

OOTS: Roy, Belkar, Durkon, Haley, Elan, Vaarsuvius (infernals would pull them in the final battle if they are going to win) and Minrah. 7 - 1 = 6... only one more. Not even close to compensate Xykon's difference on level.

The Paladins aren't going to just sit there playing Go. And in case you forgot, O-Chul now has a strong bond with the MitD, who was never really evil, and at this point, is more an ally of the Order.

One more character you are not considering, and this is the one that Serini herself should consider. SERINI. If she manages to pull her head out what passes for a rectum in this art, maybe she'll decide to go down swinging. The fact that Xykon killed Dorukan and Lirian should have motivated her. She should want revenge.

Factor in Sunny, a Beholder, and all of Serini's monsters which are apparently tough enough to give Xykon XP, and the Order definitely has the numerical advantage.

danielxcutter

2022-01-08, 11:51 PM

I mean, even if she’s (understandably) not willing to attack Xykon himself, she should positively shred either Redcloak or Oona during the surprise round.

mucat

2022-01-09, 12:14 AM

I wonder, from a d&d game perspective, how certain could Lien be that Serini wouldn't have been transported to the Celestial Realm inside Razor's stomach?
"Utterly certain" is my guess...not because of game rules, but because Lien and Razor have worked together for a long time, and sharks like to eat things. This probably isn't the first time she's seen Razor planeshift home and leave a swallowed creature behind.

The MunchKING

2022-01-09, 01:56 AM

* nine - The Order + minrah + the two paladins
** four - Xykon, Redcloak, MitD and Oona. Greyview isn't a separate character, he is Oona's class feature in the same way that Blood feast is Belkar's - so either count neither or both.

If we counted both, that would be 3 more on the Order's side, Bloodfeast, Blackwing, and Razor.

Well and "arbitrarily large number" on both sides, if you count all the summon spells they could go through.

The MunchKING

2022-01-09, 02:08 AM

I get your drift, but you are exaggerating more than a little. Serini had allies that were not insignificant to fight those 6 on ground of her choosing. And lost.

An Ally that wasn't insignificant, Sunny. The other 4 were barely good for surprise. They gave up as soon as Belkar poked them.

The primary combat advantage of a solo high level Rogue is that you should be able to avoid combats where you do not like the odds. That she got ambushed by a higher level spellcaster is pretty unfortunate, but not indicative of what a team of 6 or 8 or 10 powerful people gunning for Xykon could do. Especially with her help.

On the contrary, a bigger team with less stealth would be MORE vulnerable to scry-and-die.

And while Team Evil is spelunking around these many tunnels, there is definitely an opportunity to set up an ambush with the Order and a few Paladins and a few monster friends. They may not be able to pick the exact day of the fight, but the opportunity to be ready in one of the tunnels that will get hit within a week is available.

the problem is we saw how well her ambush worked. She had a non-killer ally, and so she only managed to take out half the order. given that it's the half that died to Xykon and fled Redcloak acting with just Oona (before Xykon showed up)(EDIT: And Elan. He wasn't in either of those categories), her ambush skills wouldn't be what elevated them to Team Evil stomping.

Serini has reasons for thinking the way she does, but she is being swayed by emotions. That is understandable and human(oid). But Haley is tactically and strategically head and shoulder beyond Serini right now. Roy even more so.

Which is why she doesn't see them beating her as they can beat Xykon, let alone Team Evil.

Mike Havran

2022-01-09, 03:51 AM

I really like that while O'Chul never has any intention of being snarky, he still manages to deliver :smallbiggrin:

Also, Serini is offering Belkar money, people. I get that idioms don't always translate, but lord, some of the suggestions in this thread... I wish I could find that quote about Rich saying no matter how hard he tries not to sexualize his women characters, the readership will do it for him anyway. To be fair, in at least one language I know, a literal translation of "getting one's beak* wet'' does, idiomatically, mean ''having a sexual intercourse''.

* well, diminutive of beak, but that is beside the point.

hamishspence

2022-01-09, 04:13 AM

I wish I could find that quote about Rich saying no matter how hard he tries not to sexualize his women characters, the readership will do it for him anyway.

This is probably what you're thinking of:

Laurin is a female character probably in her late 50's who is covered from head to toe and has never discussed anything sexual at all. I made a deliberate effort to not sexualize her, even, since I realized a while ago that I was subconsciously "sexing up" almost all of the female characters. The fact that she still rates these kind of comments is very disappointing.

Ruck

2022-01-09, 05:04 AM

I really like that while O'Chul never has any intention of being snarky, he still manages to deliver :smallbiggrin:

To be fair, in at least one language I know, a literal translation of "getting one's beak* wet'' does, idiomatically, mean ''having a sexual intercourse''.

* well, diminutive of beak, but that is beside the point.

I suspect that, in English, any such diminutive might change the meaning, but my unfamiliarity with other languages means I don't want to belabor the point in any case.

But even putting aside idioms and all, let's look at the logic behind the conclusion: Even if Serini, who has repeatedly described herself as an old woman and is half-troll now, was the type to offer sex for betrayal, would she make that offer to someone who just compared her to his grandmother?

This is probably what you're thinking of:

That was what I was thinking of, and I even found that post, but somehow I just failed to process that the paragraph I was looking for was in that post.

hroþila

2022-01-09, 05:16 AM

1)The gods have expressed their confidence (or, some of them, anyway) that they can undo the world and save the souls before the Snarl gets them even if the last gate is blown.
That "some of them" is actually just Loki, isn't it? I'm not sure if Thor discussed it on panel, so a refresher would be appreciated. Hel seemed to imply the Snarl getting the souls before it can be imprisoned was the usual outcome, which even allowing for angry hyperbole is not super reassuring, and if it was completely safe there's no reason why gods like Heimdall would vote to demolish the world now (although an argument could be made that Heimdall's reasoning still applies if the chances are very small, but not zero).

Ruck

2022-01-09, 05:39 AM

That "some of them" is actually just Loki, isn't it? I'm not sure if Thor discussed it on panel, so a refresher would be appreciated. Hel seemed to imply the Snarl getting the souls before it can be imprisoned was the usual outcome, which even allowing for angry hyperbole is not super reassuring, and if it was completely safe there's no reason why gods like Heimdall would vote to demolish the world now (although an argument could be made that Heimdall's reasoning still applies if the chances are very small, but not zero).

I think Loki is the only one who expressly says it, yes. Thor says (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html) sometimes they succeeded at cashing out the souls and sometimes they didn't. Beyond that, I'm extrapolating from a)the number of "yes" votes, given the importance of souls, seeming to suggest confidence in the possibility, and b)the fact that they've done this millions (billions?) of times before. I infer they've gotten better at it as they've gone along, although I don't have hard evidence for that.

danielxcutter

2022-01-09, 05:57 AM

That "some of them" is actually just Loki, isn't it? I'm not sure if Thor discussed it on panel, so a refresher would be appreciated. Hel seemed to imply the Snarl getting the souls before it can be imprisoned was the usual outcome, which even allowing for angry hyperbole is not super reassuring, and if it was completely safe there's no reason why gods like Heimdall would vote to demolish the world now (although an argument could be made that Heimdall's reasoning still applies if the chances are very small, but not zero).

I imagine that outburst was partly on the lines of "if we don't pull the plug ourselves it's going to break out" rather than usually or even often losing all the souls. And it feels like his argument was more "it's better to unmake the world now, instead of risking the mortals' souls being lost" rather than outright "if we don't pull it right now the Snarl will be guaranteed to eat them all". Hel's gloating also implies that he would have changed his vote in a heartbeat once her plans were revealed, which implies that he considers waiting to see if the Order can take out Xykon more acceptable than the guaranteed damning of an entire race(and bloating Hel's power with their souls).

pendell

2022-01-09, 09:12 AM

I suspect that, in English, any such diminutive might change the meaning, but my unfamiliarity with other languages means I don't want to belabor the point in any case.

But even putting aside idioms and all, let's look at the logic behind the conclusion: Even if Serini, who has repeatedly described herself as an old woman and is half-troll now, was the type to offer sex for betrayal, would she make that offer to someone who just compared her to his grandmother?

That was what I was thinking of, and I even found that post, but somehow I just failed to process that the paragraph I was looking for was in that post.

Yeah. The phrase is an offering of money, corruption. From organized crime. As seen in The Free Dictionary (https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/wet+your+beak). But we don't need a dictionary to know what's being offered. Look at Belkar's reactions. A person receiving a sexual proposition can react in any number of ways. Especially someone like Belkar, who has demonstrated his willingness to engage with bards in Haley's hometown and hookers everywhere. They can be intrigued, or embarrassed, or become extremely angry, or disgusted. Belkar's doing none of those things. He's just brushing it off. That doesn't fit with Belkar's character at all. Ergo, it's not a sexual proposition he's receiving.

Not to mention, a person who's in an advanced age category with so much physical damage, including half-troll features, has to be sporting a whopping negative charisma modifier on any diplomacy or bribery check to a human character. And why exactly would Belkar betray his team for something that he's had no problems finding on the trip? I don't know what the going rate is for a night's entertainment in D&D world, but it must be trivial for a character at Belkar's wealth-by-level.

Respectfully ,

Brian P.

Edreyn

2022-01-09, 09:42 AM

Remember Nanny Ogg? Old age CAN come together with sexuality.

Belkar compares Serini to grandmother, but she doesn't treat him as grandchild.

And how she winks to Belkar... no, I wouldn't think of money, if I didn't see this on forum.

Going Hereward

2022-01-09, 09:58 AM

High stakes negotiations amongst thieves can get really weird.

Vikenlugaid

2022-01-09, 10:59 AM

Yes they outnumber him, by more than 2-1 if you count consistently.

Based on what Serini knows, the Order outnumbers them 9* to 4*.

If we are going to count V out based on what Serini doesn't know, then we should also count MitD out. So it becomes 8 to 3.

* nine - The Order + minrah + the two paladins
** four - Xykon, Redcloak, MitD and Oona. Greyview isn't a separate character, he is Oona's class feature in the same way that Blood feast is Belkar's - so either count neither or both.
Eeeerm... The Order was going to attack Serini being 7, and was that exact moment when Serini started her ambush.
So Serini knows that the Order think they could beat Xykon without the paladins and anyone else to help... And I doubt hard they could

1)The gods have expressed their confidence (or, some of them, anyway) that they can undo the world and save the souls before the Snarl gets them even if the last gate is blown.

Just Loki, and as an argument to don't blow the world cause they have that thing with the purple color and that. I don't trust that to be a truth, maybe they could save some souls, but most of them would be erased. Thor said they "saved" some of the worlds destroying them.and saving the souls, but others don't, so is hardly implied that if the Snarl is free they can't save all the souls.

Skull the Troll

2022-01-09, 12:52 PM

An Ally that wasn't insignificant, Sunny. The other 4 were barely good for surprise. They gave up as soon as Belkar poked them.

That we have seen. She has some monsters that make Team Evil need to go take a nap after beating them. I've been assuming she doesn't have direct control of all of the creatures in the dungeon or she would have just opened every door and buried team evil under monster, but there's really no telling what she has at her disposal. To me her fatal flaw is that she has misjudged the relative strength of both the Order, and Team Evil.

PontificatusRex

2022-01-09, 12:58 PM

RatElemental

2022-01-09, 03:28 PM

Rich has said he doesn't read the forum discussions or predictions anymore, but I also suspect that it would not be hard for him to assume that some people would be speculating that.

I'll ask again if anyone can think of a reason it benefits the story for Belkar and Serini to be related.

Also, Serini is offering Belkar money, people. I get that idioms don't always translate, but lord, some of the suggestions in this thread... I wish I could find that quote about Rich saying no matter how hard he tries not to sexualize his women characters, the readership will do it for him anyway.

Personally I thought "jingle jangle" was a euphemism for liquor and the beak wettening would have been literal that way.

As for the Serini-Belkar connection, I think it'd make for a few interesting jokes if it turns out Serini knew of Granny Bitterleaf as an acquaintance and hated her guts.

Metastachydium

2022-01-09, 03:50 PM

An ally that wasn't insignificant, Sunny. The other 4 were barely good for surprise. They gave up as soon as Belkar poked them.

Yup. It's not like Mimi blocked the path of a retreat that would have effortlessly negated Serini's entire strategy for the ambush. It's also not like Franklin broke the grapple on her and the lurker absolutely didn't buy her enough time to safely withdraw into her den.

Seriously, the only monster she deployed that wasn't incredibly efficient for its CR was the trapper. That said, yes, they weren't the key factor. Home terrain and the element of surprise were and Team Evil would have had pretty much the opposite of that. Also, don't get me wrong: I was among the first posters that called the "ambush Team Evil at the entrance" idea a questionable move, but let's not misrepresent the numbers/factors involved.

and the beak wettening would have been literal that way.

So… You also think Belkar might be a birdy?

Dewin Dwl

2022-01-09, 04:19 PM

As a math guy I must object, you used the word “literally” but she is only one-quarter troll, according to Xykon’s observation “I made a theee-eighthsling!”.

Who are you gonna trust on their maths, a random stranger on the internet, or an evil sorcerer who isn't counting the number of dungeon doors he's crossed off?:smallbiggrin:

Dewin Dwl

2022-01-09, 04:23 PM

Wow...I'd forgotted about those til you said that!

I'd been slow to think of the sharks in acid, but then immediately thought of the lava-breathing sharks (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) Xykon was contemplating. (Did they actually give those a go?)

I agree that people sexualize female characters far too much, but at least some people who weren't native English speakers didn't recognize the idiom "Dip your beak".

It reminded me of the phrase "dip your bread", which I have heard used with sexual connotations on occasion, but I didn't think that would fit the context given here.

Lord Vukodlak

2022-01-09, 06:02 PM

Serini: "Belker... I am your Grandma."

Belkar: "No your not."

Serini: "Eh I knew it was a long shot."

Belkar: "Do I look stupid to you?"

Everyone Else: "Yes"

GregTD

2022-01-09, 09:32 PM

Devils advocate: Serini would have no way of knowing that.

But they can explain to her that
1: the Gods absolutely will be killing this world if Xykon gets close to getting the Gate
2: The OotS has no intention of destroying the last Gate
so
3: If she doesn't want teh world destroyed, she needs to team up

Shining Wrath

2022-01-09, 10:28 PM

Nah, Belkar is Mr. Scruffy's.

Dogs have family; cats have staff.

A thought: Serini's monster allies, while not useless, would not give Team Evil scars and Xykon XP as seen here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html). Therefore, whatever the process is/was for stocking the dungeons, she either can't do it any longer, or can't control monsters of that level on her own. The monsters in the dungeons are not her servants.

If Serini could somehow bring all the monsters from two or three dungeons out to attack Team Evil at once, that would be enough to overwhelm them. Therefore, she can't, that would be severely anticlimactic. In fact, she probably can't travel into her own dungeons any longer.

Peelee

2022-01-09, 10:41 PM

Dogs have family; cats have staff.

Ah, the siren song of a non-cat person. As if dog owners don't pick up their poop.

DaOldeWolf

2022-01-09, 10:57 PM

Ah, the siren song of a non-cat person. As if dog owners don't pick up their poop.

As someone with both. I will say there is both great perks and annoying traits to deal with regardless of species. Also both can have bad temper or can end up hurting the owner. They also can be rather cuddly when they want to. :smallbiggrin:

Bingus

2022-01-10, 12:16 AM

Dat **** punt doe.

NihhusHuotAliro

2022-01-10, 01:12 AM

You know, instead of a dog or a cat, you could have a picture of a dog or a cat.

Liquor Box

2022-01-10, 02:55 AM

Eeeerm... The Order was going to attack Serini being 7, and was that exact moment when Serini started her ambush.

The conversation was all in the present tense, so comparing the relative numbers at this point.

But if we compare the numbers at the point before Serini attacked the Order, then the Order outnumbered Team Evil 7 to 4 (or 6 to 3 if you remove MitD and V).

So Serini knows that the Order think they could beat Xykon without the paladins and anyone else to help... And I doubt hard they could

Yes, like they have done before.

Vikenlugaid

2022-01-10, 03:26 AM

But they can explain to her that
1: the Gods absolutely will be killing this world if Xykon gets close to getting the Gate
2: The OotS has no intention of destroying the last Gate
so
3: If she doesn't want teh world destroyed, she needs to team up

Nah I don't think those are the right points, why should she believe them? She will think is a lie since the paladins didn't even mention that.

I think Durkon telling her about the thing with Redcloak, the monster races and that should be a bettee shot with Serini.

Yes, like they have done before.
When? That time when Xykon only casted magic missil, and Redcloak did nothing at all, cause the comic wasn't intended to have a complex plot?
Do you think that, in tge final battle, Xykon will just cast magic missil again and Redcloak will stay just watching?

Robots

2022-01-10, 08:48 AM

New strip. Wicked.

I liked the joke of Serini acting similar to Grandma Bitterleaf, but I genuinely hope she and Belkar not related because the last thing I think this story needs is that sort of twist.

(The tragic backstory: Serini became misanthropic because her family ditched her at the nursing home.)

elros

2022-01-10, 09:37 AM

Fun synchronicity: I was just listening to a podcast about Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack, and the phrase "Get your beak wet" was used to refer to mobsters' practice of skimming profits off the top of the casinos before any official accounting, and how Sinatra learned from them how to do the same on his tours.

Now I'm totally imagining Serini listening to Dean Martin when she's relaxing.
Seirni it supposed to sound like an older character, so it makes sense that the Giant would use a phrase that was common in the 1950s, and also not surprising that most of the readers are not familiar with it.

brian 333

2022-01-10, 10:42 AM

I completely missed any hint of sexual inuendo. Jingle jingle was obviously a reference to a pouch full of coins and wet your beak was obviously a bribe.

I can see how the present generation would miss the coin reference because plastic credit cards don't jingle. And of course, anything on the internet that you don't understand is sexual innuendo.

So I suppose I should have instantly assumed that Granny Bitterleaf was soliciting Belkar with sexual favors. It's so obvious now that I think of it.

Riftwolf

2022-01-10, 11:21 AM

Personally I thought "jingle jangle" was a euphemism for liquor and the beak wettening would have been literal that way.

It's an odd combination of euphemisms, 'wetting your beak with jingle-jangle'. Maybe Serinis leaning into the halfling old-timey slang a bit hard (sort of like when, as a British person, I mock American attempts at English accents saying 'gosh crikey, cup of tea, ham and eggs, save the Queen, etc'), but it's working on some level.
I didn't read the beak wetting as sexual given the context, but out of context it could sound suggestive. I guess that's why this 'context' thing is important huh

Peelee

2022-01-10, 11:21 AM

I can see how the present generation would miss the coin reference because plastic credit cards don't jingle.

As a member of the current generation, I can remember (barely, for 'twas so long ago) looking upon an ancient contraption from your generation, I believe it was called a tele-video device or some such (I assume such a thing no longer exists, as it was from your day), and some people who loved Lucy for reasons unexplained, they were not shy about mentioning charge cards, as it were. Now, of course, I assume such cards were made of wood (a nice, solid oak, or mayhaps juniper. Perchance cheap cardboard in the early days), but I'm not one to think they they were reticent to transition to plastic by the early 60s.

Now, I've done a spell of talkin', and I wouldn't want to intrude on anyone if'n they need their rest, but I have heard rumors (unsubstantiated, mind ya) that money still comes in paper and coin form. Why, such tales regale me of the days of my youth, when I dealt in such crazy currency. The heady days of January 2022, I remember them like they were yesterday.

My, how time flies.

The MunchKING

2022-01-10, 11:41 AM

When? That time when Xykon only casted magic missil, and Redcloak did nothing at all, cause the comic wasn't intended to have a complex plot?

It's the opposite, there was a plot reason, established the strips before about why Xykon was holding back so much. He needed a good character to turn off the protection spells.

It's an odd combination of euphemisms, 'wetting your beak with jingle-jangle'. Maybe Serinis leaning into the halfling old-timey slang a bit hard (sort of like when, as a British person, I mock American attempts at English accents saying 'gosh crikey, cup of tea, ham and eggs, save the Queen, etc'), but it's working on some level.

I mean British slang is especially weird because they have rhyming slang where they drop the words that are supposed to rhyme and leave you with random other words from the rhyming pair, so no matter what wackiness halfling old-people slang devolves into it won't be able to top that. :smalltongue:

faustin

2022-01-10, 12:39 PM

Call me nostalgic, but a part of me wanted Belkar to use the bribery attempt as excuse to throw Mr. Scruffy to her face.

Ionathus

2022-01-10, 12:51 PM

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but I think I know at least part of the reason that "get your beak wet" is sounding suggestive to people, even though that's not the definition.

Without getting too explicit, there's an almost identical but blatantly suggestive phrase with the same structure, but where "beak" is replaced by something else. If someone has never heard "get your beak wet," they could be subconsciously conflating it with the other version, despite totally different contexts.

Corian

2022-01-10, 01:24 PM

I think Durkon telling her about the thing with Redcloak, the monster races and that should be a bettee shot with Serini.

Given her sympathies, that might indeed turn her around... to side with Redcloak!

I prefer the "Gods will end of the world" angle myself, she's distrustful but is aware that is a real possibility.

KorvinStarmast

2022-01-10, 02:14 PM

I prefer the "Gods will end of the world" angle myself, she's distrustful but is aware that is a real possibility. Until, and unless, she deems anyone in the Order to be credible (so far 0 persons to include two paladins are given that benefit of the doubt) she'll dismiss that warning as more BS from the young whippersnappers.

Metastachydium

2022-01-10, 02:26 PM

I can see how the present generation would miss the coin reference because plastic credit cards don't jingle.

You 'Mericans with your credit cards! Those are not a really big deal where I live. Plain old debit cards are a lot more common, and I use cash myself. Exclusively.

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but I think I know at least part of the reason that "get your beak wet" is sounding suggestive to people, even though that's not the definition.

I really don't get it. There's nothing suggestive about BIRDIES.

Doug Lampert

2022-01-10, 02:28 PM

I mean British slang is especially weird because they have rhyming slang where they drop the words that are supposed to rhyme and leave you with random other words from the rhyming pair, so no matter what wackiness halfling old-people slang devolves into it won't be able to top that. :smalltongue:

The whole point to Cockney Rhyming slang is to be incomprehensible to outsiders, it's a thieves cant.

Peelee

2022-01-10, 02:40 PM

You 'Mericans with your credit cards! Those are not a really big deal where I live. Plain old debit cards are a lot more common

That's a shame. I would never use a debit card. All the risks of cash without the benefits, and all the risks of credit cards without the benefits.

danielxcutter

2022-01-10, 02:41 PM

The whole point to Cockney Rhyming slang is to be incomprehensible to outsiders, it's a thieves cant.

I'm pretty sure even thieves can't understand it either. :p

Fyraltari

2022-01-10, 02:58 PM

I really don't get it. There's nothing suggestive about BIRDIES.
Do you not know what they're singing about?

That's a shame. I would never use a debit card. All the risks of cash without the benefits, and all the risks of credit cards without the benefits.

Hey, it's pretty damn convienient. I can go buy stuff without having to worry how much money I have on me.

Edit:

I'm pretty sure even thieves can't understand it either. :p

It's called "thieves cant" not "thieves can" for a reason, you know.

Peelee

2022-01-10, 03:13 PM

Hey, it's pretty damn convienient. I can go buy stuff without having to worry how much money I have on me.

Yes, as I said, it's like a credit card but without any of the protections.

Fyraltari

2022-01-10, 03:49 PM

Yes, as I said, it's like a credit card but without any of the protections.

Which are?

hroþila

2022-01-10, 04:03 PM

A debit card is essentially electronic money. A credit card is leasing your soul to the Devil/Bank on a monthly basis.

Bacon Elemental

2022-01-10, 04:03 PM

Which are?

The soul-crushing fear that you'll exceed an invisible credit limit and fall down the hole of "Because we say so" charges from the provider?

Metastachydium

2022-01-10, 04:12 PM

Yup. I'd rather spend my own money, thank you. I'm not really keen on the idea of paying high interests for the comfort of being at someone else's mercy.

BloodSquirrel

2022-01-10, 04:24 PM

Doug Lampert

2022-01-10, 04:33 PM

Yes, as I said, it's like a credit card but without any of the protections.

Which are?

In the United States, last time I checked, you were liable for up to $50 of illegal charges on your credit card if you notified the bank of the charges/loss/theft in a timely manner.

The similar limit on a debit card was $500.

There were other aspects where a credit card was superior. I used to travel on business every so often, and would find that most rental agencies would not rent a car on a debit card, despite the fact that they could put a hold on the debit for the entire price of the car when new if they wanted to. They needed a credit card for safety on their end.

Basically, with a credit card, the issuing bank is assuming a lot of the risk of either side engaging in fraud, and with a debit card not so much.

Yup. I'd rather spend my own money, thank you. I'm not really keen on the idea of paying high interests for the comfort of being at someone else's mercy.

My credit card (visa, from my bank) autopays every month, so I pay no interest and get 1.5% back.
My debit card (visa, from the same bank) draws out of the account immediately and I get nothing back.

A lot of US institutions seem to really want you to use credit rather than debit, and will pay you to do so.

pearl jam

2022-01-10, 04:47 PM

The use of "plain old" to describe debit cards, as opposed to credit cards, also seems somewhat out of place to me since, despite the fact that credit cards have been slower to take hold in some localities, (including mine where there are even locations of major international chains like McDonalds were a VISA may not be accepted) I believe credit cards existed for quite some time before debit cards came along.

Fyraltari

2022-01-10, 04:48 PM

In the United States, last time I checked, you were liable for up to $50 of illegal charges on your credit card if you notified the bank of the charges/loss/theft in a timely manner.

The similar limit on a debit card was $500.

There were other aspects where a credit card was superior. I used to travel on business every so often, and would find that most rental agencies would not rent a car on a debit card, despite the fact that they could put a hold on the debit for the entire price of the car when new if they wanted to. They needed a credit card for safety on their end.

Basically, with a credit card, the issuing bank is assuming a lot of the risk of either side engaging in fraud, and with a debit card not so much.

My credit card (visa, from my bank) autopays every month, so I pay no interest and get 1.5% back.
My debit card (visa, from the same bank) draws out of the account immediately and I get nothing back.

A lot of US institutions seem to really want you to use credit rather than debit, and will pay you to do so.

That sounds like the issue is not with debit card but with the U.S. system favouring credit over debit.

Xel

2022-01-10, 04:49 PM

.
I really don't get it. There's nothing suggestive about BIRDIES.

A lesson I learned when I was 8: my parents liked to claim there were at least two meanings to every word, and at least one of those was sexual. I finally challenged them, not seeing how a paved road could be at all sexual, and asked them to tell me how “concrete” could possibly be so misconstrued. They just laughed.

The lesson was two parts:
1. Humans sexualize everything at one time or another. Don’t be surprised when it happens. Don’t ask how something can be so interpreted, unless you actually want to know the answer. (This was years before I heard of Rule 34)
2. If everything has a sexual meaning somewhere, then you are able to always assume something that sounds suggestive (without being explicit) actually wasn’t intended to be. I used this observation to keep up a reputation for blissful innocence far longer than I had any right to.

Doug Lampert

2022-01-10, 05:09 PM

That sounds like the issue is not with debit card but with the U.S. system favouring credit over debit.

Conceptually, the idea with a debit card is that the money comes directly out of your account; while with a credit card conceptually the money comes from the bank and then you pay the bank at some later date.

The differences in how fraud is handled and who is liable make perfect sense within that concept. In one case the bank is liable because it's their money that was stolen. In the other case it's your money that was stolen so you are liable.

But the ACTUAL big difference is in the background (where the user doesn't see it), and is that at least in the USA, debit cards have a much smaller fee for the bank taken out of each transaction. Which means that the bank can't afford to give you 1.5% cash back, since their fee for a large transaction is (much) smaller than 1.5%, and even with the 1.5% cash back the bank is better off when I use a credit card than a debit card due to the larger fees paid by the vendor.

In exchange for the extra money on transactions, the bank assumes much more of the risks of the transactions.

Edited to add: Note that the higher costs of a credit card transaction are borne by the store, while the added benefits for that higher fee are received by the user. But the user is the one who decides which type of card to use. So, yes, the system encourages credit card use over debit card use.

Ionathus

2022-01-10, 05:12 PM

Credit cards are more secure because they don't give anyone who steals them access to your entire checking account.

Meanwhile, if you have the money in your account to pay for something with a debit card, then you can buy it with a credit card, pay off the entire balance each month, and never have to worry about interest payments or penalties.

Yep, this exactly. Every credit card company worth its salt will give you the option to auto-pay the entire balance each month. I've never paid a cent of interest for my credit card, and as others have said the bank assumes any risk of a stolen/fraudulent charge. There is a way to use it very poorly and get in a predatory debt spiral, but I was lucky to be taught good financial habits and know to avoid that.

Plus, paying with a credit card and repaying promptly every month is good for your credit rating, because it demonstrates that you make reliable payments and could thus be trusted with a car/house/business loan.

Peelee

2022-01-10, 05:14 PM

Which are?
Credit cards have significantly better fraud protection (even aside from laws regarding this, you're using their money, so they have a vested interest in protecting it, while debit cards are using your own money, so banks have no vested interest in protecting it). This is the single biggest downside to debit cards.

Aside from that, debit cards do nothing to build your credit history while credit cards do, and debit cards offer no benefits while credit cards offer cash back. I routinely get between 2-5% cash back on all purchases, which is effectively just an extra discount on whatever I buy, no matter how much it is already discounted. My cards also offer free currency exchange/no foreign transaction rates in foreign countries. Banks are typically not so kind.

The soul-crushing fear that you'll exceed an invisible credit limit
You literally can't do that. That's how credit limits work. Also, it's not invisible, they explicitly tell you what it is, and will typically raise it if you ask. Further, there limits are almost always going to exceed what you have in your bank account, so if you hit it, it's poor planning on your end.

Meanwhile, you can overdraft on a debit card. Really, you have this entire part backwards.

and fall down the hole of "Because we say so" charges from the provider?
Yes, banks are well known for not charging extra fees, ever. Besides, see below.

Yup. I'd rather spend my own money, thank you. I'm not really keen on the idea of paying high interests for the comfort of being at someone else's mercy.
You don't pay a dime in interest if you pay it off every month, which can be set to automatically go through. I don't have automatic payments because I like to monitor my statements, so I have them notify me seven days before payment is due.

If that's your only objection, then the only way to hit it is to be bad with your money, which you can do just as much with a debit card.

Fyraltari

2022-01-10, 05:22 PM

Credit cards are more secure because they don't give anyone who steals them access to your entire checking account.
Neither do debit card. The thief would need your code or access to either your e-mail adress or know your password to access the bank's online service to steal anything. And if they can have that they can do it regardless of the card you're using.

Meanwhile, if you have the money in your account to pay for something with a debit card, then you can buy it with a credit card, pay off the entire balance each month, and never have to worry about interest payments or penalties. If you're an even mildly responsible person, it's not particularly hard to keep yourself out of trouble.
That sounds redundant.

Conceptually, the idea with a debit card is that the money comes directly out of your account; while with a credit card conceptually the money comes from the bank and then you pay the bank at some later date.

The differences in how fraud is handled and who is liable make perfect sense within that concept. In one case the bank is liable because it's their money that was stolen. In the other case it's your money that was stolen so you are liable.
Hold on, I don't follow. If you borrow money and then that money is stolen, you still have to repay your creditor, don't you?

But the ACTUAL big difference is in the background (where the user doesn't see it), and is that at least in the USA, debit cards have a much smaller fee for the bank taken out of each transaction. Which means that the bank can't afford to give you 1.5% cash back, since their fee for a large transaction is (much) smaller than 1.5%, and even with the 1.5% cash back the bank is better off when I use a credit card than a debit card due to the larger fees paid by the vendor.
Why would paying the bank more, be a positive?

Plus, paying with a credit card and repaying promptly every month is good for your credit rating, because it demonstrates that you make reliable payments and could thus be trusted with a car/house/business loan.
I think I have had that "credit rating" thing explained to me once. Sounded almost dystopian.

Peelee

2022-01-10, 05:30 PM

I think I have had that "credit rating" thing explained to me once. Sounded almost dystopian.

It is, but since there's no way out of it without leaving the country for the rest of my life, then it's still preferable to make the system work in my favor as much as possible.

Doug Lampert

2022-01-10, 05:35 PM

Conceptually, the idea with a debit card is that the money comes directly out of your account; while with a credit card conceptually the money comes from the bank and then you pay the bank at some later date.

The differences in how fraud is handled and who is liable make perfect sense within that concept. In one case the bank is liable because it's their money that was stolen. In the other case it's your money that was stolen so you are liable.

But the ACTUAL big difference is in the background (where the user doesn't see it), and is that at least in the USA, debit cards have a much smaller fee for the bank taken out of each transaction. Which means that the bank can't afford to give you 1.5% cash back, since their fee for a large transaction is (much) smaller than 1.5%, and even with the 1.5% cash back the bank is better off when I use a credit card than a debit card due to the larger fees paid by the vendor.

In exchange for the extra money on transactions, the bank assumes much more of the risks of the transactions.

Edited to add: Note that the higher costs of a credit card transaction are borne by the store, while the added benefits for that higher fee are received by the user. But the user is the one who decides which type of card to use. So, yes, the system encourages credit card use over debit card use.

Hold on, I don't follow. If you borrow money and then that money is stolen, you still have to repay your creditor, don't you?

You never borrowed the money. Someone else, (falsely) CLAIMING TO BE YOU, borrowed the money (using your card or number). Why in the world would you be on the hook for that?

Edited to add: Why should you be on the hook for that?

Why would paying the bank more, be a positive?

Because you are not the one paying the bank. The VENDOR is, and he doesn't choose which card the customer uses, that's chosen by the customer.

The bank bribes the customer to use the credit card so they can charge the vendor the higher fees.

Xel

2022-01-10, 05:55 PM

You never borrowed the money. Someone else, (falsely) CLAIMING TO BE YOU, borrowed the money (using your card or number). Why in the world would you be on the hook for that?

Edited to add: Why should you be on the hook for that?

Because you are not the one paying the bank. The VENDOR is, and he doesn't choose which card the customer uses, that's chosen by the customer.

The bank bribes the customer to use the credit card so they can charge the vendor the higher fees.

The vendor turns around and charges the customer higher prices. To make this palatable, the banking system (Visa, et al?) requires the vendor to charge higher prices to everyone (or, in their terms, to charge the same price for credit as for other methods of payment). End result is that consumers pay overall higher prices for goods, but credit card use is “subsidized” by non-credit card use (as well as interest payments for people with less fiscal discipline), with the credit card users seeing the subsidy as “cash back” and other card benefits.

It’s a system designed with some well-placed thumbs on the scales to ensure plenty of money flowing through the middlemen that can be skimmed.

On the fraud side - in the US at least, you can still sometimes make a charge with just the data listed on the card (telephoning a payment, for example), although zip code seems more often also required these days.

hroþila

2022-01-10, 05:56 PM

Peelee

2022-01-10, 06:09 PM

Look, you can't bombard us with decades of American pop culture where credit cards are only ever brought up to say that this or that character has 5 of them and no money to cover the irresponsible purchases that they're making, the obvious implication being that they're going to be broke and in a lot of trouble any minute now, and then not expect us to pick up that credit cards are the worst.
The types of people who represent this are also quite notably also presented as being just the worst with money regardless. If they didn't have credit cards, they'd be overdrawn twenty times on their debit cards.

Notworhstanding that movies and TV shows also seem to think that people in poverty have large two-story houses and multiple cars with a family on a single blue-collar income, so long as the house and cars look kind of beat up.

hungrycrow

2022-01-10, 06:12 PM

Notworhstanding that movies and TV shows also seem to think that people in poverty have large two-story houses and multiple cars with a family on a single blue-collar income, so long as the house and cars look kind of beat up.

Sometimes they have large apartments in downtown New York.

Tvtyrant

2022-01-10, 06:13 PM

The types of people who represent this are also quite notably also presented as being just the worst with money regardless. If they didn't have credit cards, they'd be overdrawn twenty times on their debit cards.

Notworhstanding that movies and TV shows also seem to think that people in poverty have large two-story houses and multiple cars with a family on a single blue-collar income, so long as the house and cars look kind of beat up.

The majority of those people are young though. My kid credit card had an unpayable amount of money on it, if I had maxed it I would have had to declare bankruptcy. It's like college debt, they offer you cheap loans when you haven't had to pay for anything yet and it makes it all seem so easy.

Peelee

2022-01-10, 06:21 PM

The majority of those people are young though. My kid credit card had an unpayable amount of money on it, if I had maxed it I would have had to declare bankruptcy. It's like college debt, they offer you cheap loans when you haven't had to pay for anything yet and it makes it all seem so easy.

Or the joke about boots in the military getting a Charger and a wife, both within two months of joining up and neither of which will last long.

That's why parents exist, though. To help warn kids of such dangers (even if they don't always listen).

Liquor Box

2022-01-10, 06:25 PM

When? That time when Xykon only casted magic missil, and Redcloak did nothing at all, cause the comic wasn't intended to have a complex plot?

I don't mean that time, I'm not sure what time that even was. I mean the battle which started in strip 105. That was after the Giant had decided that there would be a plot. In that battle Xykon was supported by lots of goblins and undead, who managed to lock down most of the party. Hayley was absent for most of the fight. Xykon cast five spells, including magic missile but not only that. Recloak did contribute by using his clerical skills to bolster the undead. So it meets 0/3 of your criteria above.

I get that the Order beating Xykon in that fight was an improbable outcome for plot purposes. But it did happen, it proves that Xykon can be beat and if Serini knows about it, it should factor into her thinking.

Do you think that, in tge final battle, Xykon will just cast magic missil again and Redcloak will stay just watching?

I don't think it will happen that way. Nor do I think it will go the same way as the fight from 105. I don't think it will go the same as any previous fights in the comic, because the Giant will want the final battle to stand out. But I do think there's a good chance the Order will prevail over Xykon.

I get the point that Xykon is and his group is, on the face of it, more powerful that the Order. From our perspective as readers we know the Order is likely to prevail for story reasons. But the relevant question is what Serini thinks, or what she should think. I think Serini knows very little about the Order's abilities or strength (which is why she thought her ambush would prevail). I think strip 148 tells us that Serini think Xykon is unbeatable because he beat her friends who obviously looked up to. She's made no reasoned assessment of the Order's numbers and strength, she just thinks that Xykon is so overwhelmingly powerful that he can't be beaten. So instead she's focussed on damage control, and she thinks letting him win without actively resisting will cause less damage than allowing the Order to resist him (because that would mean a chance the gate gets destroyed). But, in my opinion, that's not a reasonable position for her to take unless she has made an informed judgment about the Order's chances of success.

As a member of the current generation

Which generation counts as the current one? Millenials?

Conceptually, the idea with a debit card is that the money comes directly out of your account; while with a credit card conceptually the money comes from the bank and then you pay the bank at some later date.

The differences in how fraud is handled and who is liable make perfect sense within that concept. In one case the bank is liable because it's their money that was stolen. In the other case it's your money that was stolen so you are liable.

Good summary

I routinely get between 2-5% cash back on all purchases, which is effectively just an extra discount on whatever I buy, no matter how much it is already discounted.

This varies greatly from country to country. Where I'm from you get nothing like that. You might get reward points.

I think because credit card companies aren't able to charge the sorts of fees that justify the big cashbacks.

A lot of these perks seem to be specific to the US anyway.
Indeed

The majority of those people are young though. My kid credit card had an unpayable amount of money on it, if I had maxed it I would have had to declare bankruptcy. It's like college debt, they offer you cheap loans when you haven't had to pay for anything yet and it makes it all seem so easy.

If a person borrows money they can't pay back, and then goes and spends it on a whole lot of stuff, i don't know that it's fair to blame the mechanism.
What do you mean by kid credit card. Do you mean actual children - because that would be different.

KorvinStarmast

2022-01-10, 07:33 PM

I believe credit cards existed for quite some time before debit cards came along.For sure. I was handling credit cards as a cashier in the early 1970's. We had to look up this book for each one in case the card was on the banned list. Physical credit card impression made on a form with four or five carbon copies. They had been around longer than that, that's just my first memory of them. (And before it was called Visa, it was called Bank Americard).

Throknor

2022-01-10, 07:37 PM

I don't mean that time, I'm not sure what time that even was. I mean the battle which started in strip 105. That was after the Giant had decided that there would be a plot. In that battle Xykon was supported by lots of goblins and undead, who managed to lock down most of the party. Hayley was absent for most of the fight. Xykon cast five spells, including magic missile but not only that. Recloak did contribute by using his clerical skills to bolster the undead. So it meets 0/3 of your criteria above.

I get that the Order beating Xykon in that fight was an improbable outcome for plot purposes. But it did happen, it proves that Xykon can be beat and if Serini knows about it, it should factor into her thinking.

I'm pretty sure Xykon was pulling his punches hoping one of the Order would unseal the gate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html). The Order only won because the Gate's seal actually destroyed Xykon. A seal created by an Epic-level wizard. A seal no longer available to be used.

Even Roy has admitted it was a fluke.

Vikenlugaid

2022-01-10, 08:10 PM

Given her sympathies, that might indeed turn her around... to side with Redcloak!

Exactly, where is the problem?
The true hero wins.

Liquor Box

2022-01-10, 08:13 PM

I'm pretty sure Xykon was pulling his punches hoping one of the Order would unseal the gate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html). The Order only won because the Gate's seal actually destroyed Xykon. A seal created by an Epic-level wizard. A seal no longer available to be used.

Even Roy has admitted it was a fluke.

Yes, I agree with all this. How much it matters depends on whose perspective you are thinking of it from - Serini's, the reader's a more objective assessment based on what we know without genre awareness (knowing that the good guys will probably prevail).

There is a gate present here - I wonder if the same thing would work, or whether it was specific to that particular gate. Not that I think that it will happen the same way twice.