How far could "Schrodinger's At Will Man" go?

[Morphic tide]

By which I mean a character that, somehow, treats every at-will player character ability in the game as freely interchangeable "blocks" at the native level of the ability. Not just the raw Martials like interchanging Fighter feats for Sneak Attack dice, but equally swapping for Invocations, Eldritch Blast dice, Reserve feats, fully-invested Soulmelds, Marshal auras, passive magic item bonuses, magic items with at-will uses, and so on, as a character focused on each mechanic.

I suppose more exactly "class, racial, feat, skill, and item applications without cooldowns, periodic use limits, or consumed components, accessible at character generation", for the sake of pruning any possible recursion cheeses and arguments over exactly how far crafting could go.

Could this get to Tier 1 by the existence of enough nonsensically-specific "silver bullet" builds to deal with near-enough everything? Tier 2 by no-selling close enough to a Sorcerer with the right silver-bullet build? Or would it fail to escape Tier 3 because at-will just doesn't go far enough to "really" break the game as necessary? If it did reach Tier 1, how few resources could it be stripped down to? If not, how little non-expended WBL-mancy (Eternal Wands, Schema, etc) or per-encounter timescale abilities (ToB, Breath Weapons, and so on) would be needed to close the gap?

Absolutely anything at-will goes, but the contents must follow the same rules themselves, and they must be valid first-round-of-play outcomes.

Edit: Point of this last line is that yes, Leadership is freely abusable, save that you cannot cheat with a Wizard cohort being obviously t1 in your stead. It'd have to be abusing the Cohort and Followers in case a situation needs more than one nonsensically specialized character to deal with an issue at a given level.

[AvatarVecna]

By which I mean a character that, somehow, treats every at-will player character ability in the game as freely interchangeable "blocks" at the native level of the ability. Not just the raw Martials like interchanging Fighter feats for Sneak Attack dice, but equally swapping for Invocations, Eldritch Blast dice, Reserve feats, fully-invested Soulmelds, Marshal auras, passive magic item bonuses, magic items with at-will uses, and so on, as a character focused on each mechanic.

I suppose more exactly "class, racial, feat, skill, and item applications without cooldowns, periodic use limits, or consumed components, accessible at character generation", for the sake of pruning any possible recursion cheeses and arguments over exactly how far crafting could go.

Could this get to Tier 1 by the existence of enough nonsensically-specific "silver bullet" builds to deal with near-enough everything? Tier 2 by no-selling close enough to a Sorcerer with the right silver-bullet build? Or would it fail to escape Tier 3 because at-will just doesn't go far enough to "really" break the game as necessary? If it did reach Tier 1, how few resources could it be stripped down to? If not, how little non-expended WBL-mancy (Eternal Wands, Schema, etc) or per-encounter timescale abilities (ToB, Breath Weapons, and so on) would be needed to close the gap?

Absolutely anything at-will goes, but the contents must follow the same rules themselves, and they must be valid first-round-of-play outcomes.

Edit: Point of this last line is that yes, Leadership is freely abusable, save that you cannot cheat with a Wizard cohort being obviously t1 in your stead. It'd have to be abusing the Cohort and Followers in case a situation needs more than one nonsensically specialized character to deal with an issue at a given level.

I wanna see if I'm understanding you: you have a single slot, with which you can fill the slot with anything in the entire game that could be considered quote-unquote "usable at-will"?

EDIT: Does it have to be usable at-will by default, or can it qualify if other mechanics could be employed to make it at-will?

What if it's only "at-will" at some point post-epic?

[Jervis]

The existence of Phaerimm means that all spells debatably become at will abilities, but assuming we go RAI on this they probably don’t count. And obviously Pun Pun shows what custom at wills do.

As for the actual question we have a initiator with warlock invocations and Incarnum. Assuming it did just get ALL of them you have a tier 2 character that can easily get to tier 1 if crafting is available via the warlocks WBL shenaniganry.

[Morphic tide]

I wanna see if I'm understanding you: you have a single slot, with which you can fill the slot with anything in the entire game that could be considered quote-unquote "usable at-will"?
Better way of putting it is build-swapping, resolving into arbitrarily-specific attempts at solving problems for the encounter. "Schrodinger's", not "Omnigestalt". With "at will" being defined in the second paragraph as "without cooldowns, periodic use limits, or consumed components".


The existence of Phaerimm means that all spells debatably become at will abilities, but assuming we go RAI on this they probably don’t count. And obviously Pun Pun shows what custom at wills do.

As for the actual question we have a initiator with warlock invocations and Incarnum. Assuming it did just get ALL of them you have a tier 2 character that can easily get to tier 1 if crafting is available via the warlocks WBL shenaniganry.

Given the Artificer stays t1 into high levels where it racks up week-long preperations to get things done via crafting abuse, I don't see the tiering issue with being a particular Warlock or Meldshaper, or combination thereof, as necessary, rather than all versions of both at once. Initiating is a backup of ~per-encounters before getting into "real" resource use, in case the alternatives, including perfectly fungible but similarly-restricted WBL, don't pan out.

Edit: Recognition of Sarrukh Manipulate Form cheese is pretty much the chief reason for specifying a first-round-of-play restriction.

[AvatarVecna]

Somebody with a 17th lvl slot, a 9th lvl spell known, and Innate Spell feat can cast said 9th lvl Spell at-will.

[Jack_Simth]

Somebody with a 17th lvl slot, a 9th lvl spell known, and Innate Spell feat can cast said 9th lvl Spell at-will.

... and the right build can do that below 20th, too.

[AvatarVecna]

... and the right build can do that below 20th, too.

I don't doubt it. :smallsmile:

[Morphic tide]

Somebody with a 17th lvl slot, a 9th lvl spell known, and Innate Spell feat can cast said 9th lvl Spell at-will.

Of course, there are very limited options for getting any Epic feats before level 21, and the primary way to get a 17th level slot is eight picks of Improved Spell Capacity. However, this does become relevant because it makes a general rule that any spell eight levels lower than the highest available slot becomes 1/round. Via Ur Priest entered with Laborious Training from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, this gives us a 9th for a 1st at level 13, and due to the nature of this, any 1st-level spell able to be fed to Ur Priest counts.

The dubious reading of Dragonwrought Kobold to qualify for Epic feats at ECL 1 would then mean at 12th it applies to 2nds, to 3rds at 15th, and to 4ths at 18th, for a very basic benchmark of how far that finding goes, and due to Ur Priest being your 4th level, you can actually take Geomancer at 5th if you can source Knowledge (Nature) to access any Arcane full-caster. Of course, that particular method rests on the deepest of RAW Dragonwrought cheese, so few games would ever allow it, but it's worth mention as a benchmark for pushing.


... and the right build can do that below 20th, too.
Curious about how you get eight Epic feats, or otherwise acquire a hard 17th level slot, before level 20. Even with the above, you need to first get to Ur Priest 9 (or equivalent casting from other PRCs) before you qualify for Improved Spell Capacity, needing five applicable bonus feats 13-19. This is not "cast as a 17th level spell", this is a 17th level slot. I suppose that the right misattribution of the bloodline rules to push the early-entry even further back might make it fit?

...I find it amusing that a thread asking how far at-will mechanics can go immediately went to questioning how rapidly you can progress spell levels to turn spellcasting into an at-will mechanic.

[AvatarVecna]

...I find it amusing that a thread asking how far at-will mechanics can go immediately went to questioning how rapidly you can progress spell levels to turn spellcasting into an at-will mechanic.

Well, the straightforward OP-intended path would basically involve cataloguing every at-will ability in the game and what level they become available at to determine what Schrodinger's Character is capable of, to figure out if that giant mess of abilities qualifies as T1...

...and the other just requires finding a single way to get at-will Wish, which can duplicate like 90% of the spells in the game, and thus that particular at-will ability is definitionally T0 all on its own.

The latter is a much easier way to determine when exactly everything breaks down into "definitely at least T1".

[Jervis]

Of course, there are very limited options for getting any Epic feats before level 21, and the primary way to get a 17th level slot is eight picks of Improved Spell Capacity. However, this does become relevant because it makes a general rule that any spell eight levels lower than the highest available slot becomes 1/round. Via Ur Priest entered with Laborious Training from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, this gives us a 9th for a 1st at level 13, and due to the nature of this, any 1st-level spell able to be fed to Ur Priest counts.

The dubious reading of Dragonwrought Kobold to qualify for Epic feats at ECL 1 would then mean at 12th it applies to 2nds, to 3rds at 15th, and to 4ths at 18th, for a very basic benchmark of how far that finding goes, and due to Ur Priest being your 4th level, you can actually take Geomancer at 5th if you can source Knowledge (Nature) to access any Arcane full-caster. Of course, that particular method rests on the deepest of RAW Dragonwrought cheese, so few games would ever allow it, but it's worth mention as a benchmark for pushing.


Curious about how you get eight Epic feats, or otherwise acquire a hard 17th level slot, before level 20. Even with the above, you need to first get to Ur Priest 9 (or equivalent casting from other PRCs) before you qualify for Improved Spell Capacity, needing five applicable bonus feats 13-19. This is not "cast as a 17th level spell", this is a 17th level slot. I suppose that the right misattribution of the bloodline rules to push the early-entry even further back might make it fit?

...I find it amusing that a thread asking how far at-will mechanics can go immediately went to questioning how rapidly you can progress spell levels to turn spellcasting into an at-will mechanic.

Spell level increases. You need to be able to cast effective 18th level spells to qualify with extra spell, 17th level if you use one of those slot increasing classes like Mystic(dragon mag). Off the top of my head, the earth spell package (+1 over 9th) and sanctum spell (another +1) get you too 11th. Metamagic reduces on heighten can get you to 9th from something else easily. Improved Sigil Krau can get you another +1 to a maximum of 9th. Problem is that there are only a couple of feats that go above 9th in effective spell level. So I believe you cap at 11th level slots through this method. The only way to go higher is epic heighten or somehow getting 11th level spells that you can sanctum spell.

Oh, or just be a ridiculously old Dragonwroght Kobold. Dragons qualify for epic feats pre-epic by age category. So you can qualify to take them at level 1, assuming you get the other qualifications

[Jack_Simth]

Spell level increases. You need to be able to cast effective 18th level spells to qualify with extra spell, 17th level if you use one of those slot increasing classes like Mystic(dragon mag). Off the top of my head, the earth spell package (+1 over 9th) and sanctum spell (another +1) get you too 11th. Metamagic reduces on heighten can get you to 9th from something else easily. Improved Sigil Krau can get you another +1 to a maximum of 9th. Problem is that there are only a couple of feats that go above 9th in effective spell level. So I believe you cap at 11th level slots through this method. The only way to go higher is epic heighten or somehow getting 11th level spells that you can sanctum spell.

Oh, or just be a ridiculously old Dragonwroght Kobold. Dragons qualify for epic feats pre-epic by age category. So you can qualify to take them at level 1, assuming you get the other qualifications

Red Wizard, DMG. A Circle Leader with a bunch of simulacrums or followers can use the 5th level ability, Circle Leader, to Heighten a spell as high as 20th. Extra Slot (as your 12th level feat - Wizard-5/Red Wizard-7) can then get you a slot at any level below 20th. Innate Spell for a 9th is thus viable in the 15th or 18th level feat slot.

So "Any 9th level Sor/Wiz spell (that doesn't cost XP) at will" is how far we can go. Given that Planar Binding can get you Wish, and Wish can get you scrolls of other spells.... well.... any spell is available.

[Rebel7284]

... and the right build can do that below 20th, too.


I would call that a very very wrong build.

Even if some reading of the rules allow it. :)

[Morphic tide]

Well, the straightforward OP-intended path would basically involve cataloguing every at-will ability in the game and what level they become available at to determine what Schrodinger's Character is capable of, to figure out if that giant mess of abilities qualifies as T1...

...and the other just requires finding a single way to get at-will Wish, which can duplicate like 90% of the spells in the game, and thus that particular at-will ability is definitionally T0 all on its own.

The latter is a much easier way to determine when exactly everything breaks down into "definitely at least T1".

That's the straightforward path, the method I was actually expecting was more cross-referencing the obviously-permissible classes for niches covered. Exactly which things are Initiating and Meldshaping filling in for Warlock, for instance. Or vice-versa, what Warlock brings to those two. The raw spell-emulation kicking in at least by 12th is certainly noteworthy, if not somewhere mid-11th by cheesing bloodlines on top of it,


Spell level increases. You need to be able to cast effective 18th level spells to qualify with extra spell, 17th level if you use one of those slot increasing classes like Mystic(dragon mag).

"One spell slot eight levels higher than the innate spell is permanently used to power it, and any XP cost for the innate spell is paid each time you use it. As well, you must have any focus required by the spell in order to use it as a spell-like ability, and if the innate spell has a costly material component, you must use an item worth 50 times that cost as a focus."

The slot itself has to be the level required to do Innate Spell, meaning that we have to have a hard 17th-level slot for 9ths. And due to the preserved XP costs, Wish is oddly enough an invalid subject for this exercise. For Improve Spell Capacity, it requires casting spells of the normal maximum level, and gives you one level higher than you currently can. As Innate Spell is exact in its prerequisite, the mechanism must stop at 16th to get a hard 17th level slot by Improved Spell Capacity, though Extra Slot being any lower-than-peak means unbounded loops work.

However, many of the tools you describe do bring the entry down earlier, though the prerequisites can get odd.


Red Wizard, DMG. A Circle Leader with a bunch of simulacrums or followers can use the 5th level ability, Circle Leader, to Heighten a spell as high as 20th. Extra Slot (as your 12th level feat - Wizard-5/Red Wizard-7) can then get you a slot at any level below 20th. Innate Spell for a 9th is thus viable in the 15th or 18th level feat slot.

So "Any 9th level Sor/Wiz spell (that doesn't cost XP) at will" is how far we can go. Given that Planar Binding can get you Wish, and Wish can get you scrolls of other spells.... well.... any spell is available.
Only the at-will Wishers, not that it means much at this level of shenanigans. Given I'm already considering Furthest Degree Dragonwrought Cheese and the circle magic expressly gives the 20th-equivalent Heighten, this is a fine benchmark for the TO shattering-point. "Do Literally Everything Without Question At 15 By Annoying But Inarguable RAW Because DC Scaling Was Poorly Worded" is only two levels prior to natural acquisition of Wish, there are so many ways to break the game so comprehensively by then that it's honestly not that remarkable.

[Jervis]

"One spell slot eight levels higher than the innate spell is permanently used to power it, and any XP cost for the innate spell is paid each time you use it. As well, you must have any focus required by the spell in order to use it as a spell-like ability, and if the innate spell has a costly material component, you must use an item worth 50 times that cost as a focus."

The slot itself has to be the level required to do Innate Spell, meaning that we have to have a hard 17th-level slot for 9ths. And due to the preserved XP costs, Wish is oddly enough an invalid subject for this exercise. For Improve Spell Capacity, it requires casting spells of the normal maximum level, and gives you one level higher than you currently can. As Innate Spell is exact in its prerequisite, the mechanism must stop at 16th to get a hard 17th level slot by Improved Spell Capacity, though Extra Slot being any lower-than-peak means unbounded loops work.

However, many of the tools you describe do bring the entry down earlier, though the prerequisites can get odd.


Only the at-will Wishers, not that it means much at this level of shenanigans. Given I'm already considering Furthest Degree Dragonwrought Cheese and the circle magic expressly gives the 20th-equivalent Heighten, this is a fine benchmark for the TO shattering-point. "Do Literally Everything Without Question At 15 By Annoying But Inarguable RAW Because DC Scaling Was Poorly Worded" is only two levels prior to natural acquisition of Wish, there are so many ways to break the game so comprehensively by then that it's honestly not that remarkable.

Yeah thats what i was what i was going for. I didn't list it the best but i meant boosting highest spell level for extra slot cheese.

[Lans]

Non stance manuevers can be gotten via idiot crusader, spell thief might be an interesting set of abilities to look at.

[Jack_Simth]

Only the at-will Wishers, not that it means much at this level of shenanigans. Given I'm already considering Furthest Degree Dragonwrought Cheese and the circle magic expressly gives the 20th-equivalent Heighten, this is a fine benchmark for the TO shattering-point. "Do Literally Everything Without Question At 15 By Annoying But Inarguable RAW Because DC Scaling Was Poorly Worded" is only two levels prior to natural acquisition of Wish, there are so many ways to break the game so comprehensively by then that it's honestly not that remarkable.

Well... not everything everything. Being able to swap out any of the at-will things means Arcane Disciple can get you all domain spells (including Miracle, which gets Cleric spells below 9th, and all other spells of 7th and lower), but you can't spend XP for this challenge, so anything that costs XP isn't viable via that route.

Still, that's a lot of spells on the table.

[Lans]

At level 1 you can break the economy with savnoks at will full plate, remote viewing with doves, 4d6 fire damage to who ever hits you, deal 5d6 touch attack, 3d6+4 ranged touch to 2 adjacent targets. As well as SA, sudden strike and skirmish giving you instant death to anything level appropriate.

I think this will hit Tier 2 at level one.

[Jervis]

At level 1 you can break the economy with savnoks at will full plate, remote viewing with doves, 4d6 fire damage to who ever hits you, deal 5d6 touch attack, 3d6+4 ranged touch to 2 adjacent targets. As well as SA, sudden strike and skirmish giving you instant death to anything level appropriate.

I think this will hit Tier 2 at level one.

What’s a savnok?

[Lans]

What’s a savnok?

A. Vestige that lets you summon full plate at will. I may have spelled it wrong

[Morphic tide]

At level 1 you can break the economy with savnoks at will full plate, remote viewing with doves, 4d6 fire damage to who ever hits you, deal 5d6 touch attack, 3d6+4 ranged touch to 2 adjacent targets. As well as SA, sudden strike and skirmish giving you instant death to anything level appropriate.

I think this will hit Tier 2 at level one.
Savnok has the hickup that his influence prevents you from taking off any piece of equipment, so whenever that kicks in it's 1/Binding since you have to release it to sell (since it's described as Called, this does seem valid!), while 1st level instant death is more on something Human Fighter 1 with 18 Str getting Spirited Charge and a Lance for +12 damage to charge attacks. Remember, one-at-a-time, not all-at-once.

Also I think the feat requirements make it surprisingly difficult to abuse Innate Spell, since it's a package of four feats. Dragonwrought eats another feat, so 1st is taken, and Ur Priest needs two. Even with two Flaws, there's some mighty intense ordering to be done to get things to fit. Even for Red Wizard, it's six feats, being the three prerequisites of Innate Spell used to enter Red Wizard as well, Tattoo Focus, then you need Extra Slot to get your 9th-19th level for the spell you want Innate, then finally take Innate Spell itself. So on that end, it seemingly takes double-flaw at 8th or Human at 9th.

The Dragonwrought direction needs two Flaws to enter Ur Priest early, since you need four feats (Dragonwrought, Laborious Training, Spell Focus (Evil), and Iron Will) by 4th level as a non-Human. And that's assuming we're allowing what appears to be 2nd-party 3.0 material... After that, you need three feats (6/9/12) to even qualify for Innate Spell (15), so there's some PRC hunting to do to find the feats to actually hit 12th. Ardent Dilettante gives an open bonus feat at its 4th level, at least, but costs a level of casting.

[Lans]

How are you ruling effects that have a duration?

[Morphic tide]

How are you ruling effects that have a duration?

The limitations are on the activation criteria (as has been established, ToB is not necessary past level 12 if Innate Spell shenanigans work), so getting an at-will (or Innate Spell'd, 1/round only has any difference if you're simultaneously a Choker or otherwise get extra actions) Enlarge Person is fine.

[Lans]

Incarnum and binder have at will abilities, but in order to use them you have to use not at will abilities in binding vestiges and shaping soulmelds. Are those abilities effectively locked out?

[Morphic tide]

Incarnum and binder have at will abilities, but in order to use them you have to use not at will abilities in binding vestiges and shaping soulmelds. Are those abilities effectively locked out?
Given the talk about Innate Spell, which is using up quite the number of feats to qualify for "permanently" (irrelevant for the superposition) burning a spell slot once, and such is at the level where walking can be questioned for whether or not it's At Will (due to rules regarding ignoring daily rest as a whole and food supplies), it's fine.