Keen rapier

[mrcarter11]

Can someone explain to me how my player came up with a cost of 235 gold for a keen rapier?

It's like 8k, no? Am I crazy?

[JNAProductions]

Can someone explain to me how my player came up with a cost of 235 gold for a keen rapier?

It's like 8k, no? Am I crazy?

They misread something, I'd assume. Or misinterpreted something.

Did you ask them how they got that price?

[mrcarter11]

Ha no. I was just told that he went over it with another party member who now that I think about it, said he mostly plays pathfinder. wondering if he messed up rule sets.

[mrcarter11]

No idea. I just reexplained the cost. Is there a way to delete this thread? players finding this would be slightly unfortunate.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Maybe he had a Large sized +1 morphing/keen arrow that he turned into and uses as a rapier? Or maybe he doesn't have keen on it but instead has Improved Critical?

[edit] Maybe he has a feat that allows him to get one or more items for cheap? For instance, Ancestral Relic, which grants (essentially) free WBL. Or maybe he had crafting cost reducers and reduced the cost of crafting the weapon.

[JNAProductions]

No idea. I just reexplained the cost. Is there a way to delete this thread? players finding this would be slightly unfortunate.

Only mods can delete a thread.

[Jay R]

Ask him for the details. If he doesn't have them ask the other player. But the item doesn't exist in your world until you have approved the build.

Be polite and friendly. And firm.

[mrcarter11]

Maybe he had a Large sized +1 morphing/keen arrow that he turned into and uses as a rapier? Or maybe he doesn't have keen on it but instead has Improved Critical?

[edit] Maybe he has a feat that allows him to get one or more items for cheap? For instance, Ancestral Relic, which grants (essentially) free WBL. Or maybe he had crafting cost reducers and reduced the cost of crafting the weapon.



I guess SRD uses the term enhancement bonus for masterwork, and when the same terminology was used for magical weapons, they thought masterwork weapons could have magical abilities.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I guess SRD uses the term enhancement bonus for masterwork, and when the same terminology was used for magical weapons, they thought masterwork weapons could have magical abilities.There...are a couple of ways I know of to get a non-magical enhancement bonus on a weapon, which lets you get magical abilities without a markup for having an additional magical +1 to boost the price. Magical enhancement costs are based explicitly on the effective magical enhancement bonus of the weapon, while, RAW, you only need an enhancement bonus but not a magical enhancement bonus to magically enhance a weapon with special abilities. So a non-magical enhancement bonus to attack and damage will allow you to magically enhance it further without increasing the costs of further magical enhancements.

The kakita katana, from Oriental Adventures, grants a +2 enhancement bonus to attack and damage for +8,000 gp, but since it's non-magical, adding keen is a mere +2,000 gp instead of +10,000 gp.

The other way is adding a +1 via making it a device, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood. It requires a very expensive fuel cell, however, which generally makes up the difference.

You could also hit it with a permanency'd magic weapon spell, which costs nothing but a bit of XP, and it'd allow you to further magically enhance it with keen or whatever else you want.

However, all of those still cost more than a few hundred gp, even if it's just for the keen property. Although there are effects that grant the keen property, such as the scabbard of keen edges or the artificer's personal weapon augmentation infusion. Or maybe the player pulled some acorn of far travel hax (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?546179-Un-Hallow-that-Stacks)?

[Jay R]

The crucial point is that is has to be approved by the DM. Until you see how it was done, don't approve it.

[Arkhios]

Ha no. I was just told that he went over it with another party member who now that I think about it, said he mostly plays pathfinder. wondering if he messed up rule sets.

Umm, even if they would mix up the rules, that kind of misunderstanding wouldn't have any basis in Pathfinder (1st edition), because they have exactly same magic item costs.

I had to check for 2nd edition because I haven't played that edition myself, but it would seem that even there a keen item would cost over 3,000 gp.

So, it's safe to say this isn't Pathfinder's fault.
The misunderstanding must've come from elsewhere.

[Melcar]

Can someone explain to me how my player came up with a cost of 235 gold for a keen rapier?

It's like 8k, no? Am I crazy?


IIRC, its indeed a +2 weapon. Either he's found some specific weapon in like Arms and Armor guide or some 3rd party material, which they might have miss-priced or he's got something wrong...

Lets see if I remember... Its 320gp for the masterwork rapier, then 8000 for the +1, keen enchants. For a total of 8320gp. If he's building/enchanting it himself its then: 107gp for the masterwork weapon and 4000 for the enchantments for at total of 4107gp.

[Arkhios]

IIRC, its indeed a +2 weapon. Either he's found some specific weapon in like Arms and Armor guide or some 3rd party material, which they might have miss-priced or he's got something wrong...

Lets see if I remember... Its 320gp for the masterwork rapier, then 8000 for the +1, keen enchants. For a total of 8320gp. If he's building/enchanting it himself its then: 107gp for the masterwork weapon and 4000 for the enchantments for at total of 4107gp.

Yeah, that 235 gp seems a whole lot like a made-up value. Not pointing fingers here though. It might have been made-up by anyone, really.

[Jervis]

Yeah, that 235 gp seems a whole lot like a made-up value. Not pointing fingers here though. It might have been made-up by anyone, really.

Correct me if i’m wrong but isn’t there a weapon template that increases crit threat range?

[El Dorado]

I vote for "going from memory + typo"

+1 enhancement is 2,000

masterwork is 300

lot of swords are 15 gp (longsword, scimitar). probably thought rapier was the same

so 2,315. but whoops, missed the 1. ergo 235 gp

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ammo costs 1/50 the price of a melee or ranged weapon, and morphing is a thing...

[JNAProductions]

Ammo costs 1/50 the price of a melee or ranged weapon, and morphing is a thing...

It's also cheesy as all heck and will typically get books thrown at you.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's also cheesy as all heck and will typically get books thrown at you.And how does that affect this particular topic? At all?

[JNAProductions]

And how does that affect this particular topic? At all?

Because you're presenting it as a "They could be doing this to get that price," when I've never ONCE seen a table where that'd actually fly.

[ShurikVch]

Correct me if i’m wrong but isn’t there a weapon template that increases crit threat range?
Pitspawned template adds +2 on confirmation rolls - and it's the only one I'm aware of

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Because you're presenting it as a "They could be doing this to get that price," when I've never ONCE seen a table where that'd actually fly.The entire thread is about "how could my player have gotten this result legally?" Just because some people wouldn't do it doesn't mean the player didn't, and it's a perfectly valid response to the question asked. The player could have made a Large (or Huge) +1 morphing/keen arrow and gotten somewhere around the price listed in the OP. Did he? Dunno. But he could've.

[Fizban]

There are lots of 3rd party books that add cheap non-magical weapon properties, I wouldn't be too surprised if they found one of those. People have also mentioned their players finding things on the DnD wiki, which has tons of unmarked homebrew but being a "wiki" sounds like a reliable source.

[Melcar]

There are lots of 3rd party books that add cheap non-magical weapon properties, I wouldn't be too surprised if they found one of those. People have also mentioned their players finding things on the DnD wiki, which has tons of unmarked homebrew but being a "wiki" sounds like a reliable source.

The two best non-magical “enchantments” I know of are laminated steel and serrated, from Mercenaries Handbook… one improves the threat range and dam by 1, the other increases threat multiplier by 1. Both however costs a lot more than ~ 250gp!

[mrcarter11]

Well had the next session and got to talk to the player about it. That player directed me to the pathfinder player I mentioned already. According to them, they told the player it was 2235, not 235. When I pointed out that for a weapon to be keen, it has to be a +1 magic weapon already, so the price is actually that of a +2 weapon, they argued a bit about it. It apparently isn't a rule familiar with them and they thought you could have a keen rapier without the +1.

personally never seen that sort of rule before but to each their own. thought it might be a pf thing since I have nominal experience with it and all of what I do have is 5 years old at least. but guess not according to you guys.

First player didn't care if they had to wait for keen, just wanted to know if they could upgrade the +1 to +1 keen, or had to be a whole new sword. Was happy to hear the former.
Second player seemed okay with it too after talking about it more.


So in the end it was a miscommunication that somehow dropped 2k off, and then a rule discrepancy that explained the rest of it.

Thanks for input everyone.

[aglondier]

That's actually ringing a bell. Check out the Affordable Arcana series of books by pfsrd20 publishing. Fairly sure one of them came up with a cheap "magic weapon" enhancement that meant you could have magic weapons that didn't need that initial +1 before you could tack on weapon enhancements. Might be misremembering.

[El Dorado]

Amulet of mighty fists also lets you add weapon special abilities without an enhancement bonus.

[Arkhios]

Correct me if i’m wrong but isn’t there a weapon template that increases crit threat range?

Don't know anything of the sort, but then again, I find it impossible to keep track of or know every 3.5 splat book from cover to cover. Good for you if you can.


Amulet of mighty fists also lets you add weapon special abilities without an enhancement bonus.

Maybe, but a rapier was not an unarmed strike or a natural weapon, last time I checked.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Maybe, but a rapier was not an unarmed strike or a natural weapon, last time I checked.Graft weapon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/graftWeapon.htm) allows you to stack natural weapon effects and anything that affects manufactured weapons. So if you had, say, a necklace of natural weapons that was keyed to your natural weapon rapier, you could affect it whenever you manifested graft weapon onto it.

[Arkhios]

Graft weapon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/graftWeapon.htm) allows you to stack natural weapon effects and anything that affects manufactured weapons. So if you had, say, a necklace of natural weapons that was keyed to your natural weapon rapier, you could affect it whenever you manifested graft weapon onto it.

Interesting, I didn't know that.

[Milodiah]

Well When I pointed out that for a weapon to be keen, it has to be a +1 magic weapon already, so the price is actually that of a +2 weapon, they argued a bit about it. It apparently isn't a rule familiar with them and they thought you could have a keen rapier without the +1.

personally never seen that sort of rule before but to each their own.

That's a somewhat common houserule, I sometimes apply it myself, but a houserule nonetheless. Its intended to give access to the 'does cool stuff' part of magic weapons and armor without getting the marginal attack and damage bonuses, in order to lower the costs and make such things more accessible at lower levels.

But yeah, its a houserule that requires a substantially different reading of the rules and results in a noticeable change in gameplay, and thus would need to be something the DM decided to institute and then told the players about, which didn't happen since you're the DM and would therefore be the first to know about it.

[AnonJr]

Well had the next session and got to talk to the player about it. That player directed me to the pathfinder player I mentioned already. According to them, they told the player it was 2235, not 235. When I pointed out that for a weapon to be keen, it has to be a +1 magic weapon already, so the price is actually that of a +2 weapon, they argued a bit about it. It apparently isn't a rule familiar with them and they thought you could have a keen rapier without the +1.

personally never seen that sort of rule before but to each their own. thought it might be a pf thing since I have nominal experience with it and all of what I do have is 5 years old at least. but guess not according to you guys.

First player didn't care if they had to wait for keen, just wanted to know if they could upgrade the +1 to +1 keen, or had to be a whole new sword. Was happy to hear the former.
Second player seemed okay with it too after talking about it more.


So in the end it was a miscommunication that somehow dropped 2k off, and then a rule discrepancy that explained the rest of it.

Thanks for input everyone.

Scanning through I was wondering if it was going to end up some special material that ends up being fairly cheap but giving you the same net effect. :smallsmile:

I'll echo the other reply, in that the groups I've played with have all allowed for enhancements without the prerequisite +1 (though you still have to have masterwork). I never knew it was a house rule thing until much later.

[Arkhios]

That's a somewhat common houserule, I sometimes apply it myself, but a houserule nonetheless. Its intended to give access to the 'does cool stuff' part of magic weapons and armor without getting the marginal attack and damage bonuses, in order to lower the costs and make such things more accessible at lower levels.

But yeah, its a houserule that requires a substantially different reading of the rules and results in a noticeable change in gameplay, and thus would need to be something the DM decided to institute and then told the players about, which didn't happen since you're the DM and would therefore be the first to know about it.

With an extensive experience of 5e (and 3.5/PF1e for that matter), I have to say that I wouldn't mind ditching the entirety of permanent armor and weapon enhancement bonuses altogether, and let people apply the more interesting special abilities straight away with only the masterwork requirement. I might increase the cost for masterwork a bit (by maybe adding a zero at the end), but that's about it. It would make relying on friendly spellcaster's aid more relevant, but I think it would be alright. (Besides, I think that the PF1e's take on letting certain permanent weapon enhancement bonuses bypass certain material DR's is beyond stupid)

That being said, I'd make it very clear that this is a houserule, and not rules as written. And make sure everyone is aware of this.

[aglondier]

That's actually ringing a bell. Check out the Affordable Arcana series of books by pfsrd20 publishing. Fairly sure one of them came up with a cheap "magic weapon" enhancement that meant you could have magic weapons that didn't need that initial +1 before you could tack on weapon enhancements. Might be misremembering.

Yep, my mistake. It was Loot 4 Less: Armour and Weapons. It adds rules for magic armour and weapons that don't need to be masterwork or have a base +1 enchantment before adding the interesting stuff. Do a google search, the pdf is pretty easy to find.