8th level Mystic Arcanum- which is the least bad?

[diplomancer]

They're all pretty disappointing, I believe. But, considering this is the only 8th level spell you will ever have, which one would you say is the least bad?

(I know Mystic Arcanum frustrates a lot of people. I don't mind it that much for the other levels, as there are decent options I'd be happy to cast every time. But 8th level is just so meh. I hope, when it comes to it, I can convince my DM to let me select Summon Celestial -at 8th level power- for my Celestial Warlock).

[Chaos Jackal]

Feeblemind or maddening darkness are your best options for the most part. Face a lot of (non-wizard) casters? Feeblemind is usually a very good choice. Can you manage the massive area of maddening darkness and possibly leverage it to your advantage (Devil's Sight, mind blank)? A blot of death with that size can be extremely potent. Depending on how much you think you can use them, I'd go with the more appropriate of the two if you can't decide.

Glibness is an autopick in social games or if you find yourself counterspelling a lot.

The only other option I'd consider is demiplane, but that has a number of quirks that won't make it worth it every game. It can be really good, but is kinda reliant on a number of external factors.

[tokek]

I got a lot of value from Glibness and didn't regret taking it.

When you absolutely positively need that Counterspell to stick have Glibness up and running.

Also it just makes for auto-success on most social skills so you can genuinely persuade/deceive/intimidate your way through all sorts of stuff without risk of it going horribly wrong on one dice roll. Immunity to truth magics is very situational but super-powerful because people assume it the truth if their spell says its not a lie.

To be fair my character spent several months neck-deep in conspiracies, spies, assassins and so forth. If you are dungeon delving and rarely need to either counterspell or dispel magic then you will not get nearly so much value out of the spell.

[Amnestic]

Glibness is a 1 hour boost to every charisma check you make - which includes Counterspell/Dispel Magic if you have those.

Power Word: Stun is essentially a guaranteed no-save stun against any spellcasting enemy, since they rarely have max HP in excess of 150 (Lich at CR21 has 135). They can make saves to end it at the end of their turn, but at that point their concentration's already gone and you've had a chance to smack them about a bit. YMMV though, depending on the strength of enemies you're fighting and if your DM gives you hints at enemy HP totals.

Maddening Darkness has a 60' radius. That's pretty big, and most creatures will be forced to dash to get out or risk taking multiple damage ticks, which can force them to burn actions in addition to taking damage.

Feeblemind can cripple an enemy and targets a weak saving throw, and with 150' range it's a good opener spell. It also does its damage first, then prompts a save. Sure, 4d6 psychic isn't amazing at that level, but it is guaranteed.

[Dualight]

It really depends on what kind of campaign you are playing by that point, as well as what your role in the party is.
If you are the only party face, glibness can come in clutch to guarantee that that social encounter can't go wrong.
power word: stun can finish a combat non-lethally from a distance.

I have never played at higher levels, so I lack the familiarity to give better advice, but I'd suggest to choose based on what the rest of the party needs by then.

[diplomancer]

That's what's so frustrating about it all. All these spells are good; in the right circumstance. But a Mystic Arcanum is fixed, so you want something that's not situational.

[stoutstien]

I like demiplaine. It's not the most powerful choice but it's probably the most flexible option. Glibness is a close second but I prefer the utility offered by nearly Infinite walk in closets.

[Rukelnikov]

I never did have to choose an 8th level MA, but I'll throw my hat with the Demiplane/Feebleemind/Madenning Darkness crowd.

Personally, I'd take Demiplane and never look back. Having your personal plane is one of those status things, even if its a single room. The cooler thing is, you are not limited to having "only one" Demiplane, every time you cast it you can go back to a previous one you went, or to a new one, so basically you can have as many rooms outside of space as you want.

[tokek]

That's what's so frustrating about it all. All these spells are good; in the right circumstance. But a Mystic Arcanum is fixed, so you want something that's not situational.

If its any help I found the issue goes away at level 17 when you pick a 9th level arcanum. Depending on patron you will pick either Wish or True Polymorph both of which are incredibly flexible and both of which are in a tier of their own for impact on the game. A tier I call bull***t tier (having played it and enjoyed it.)

I do agree about the 8th level spell. I think there are a small number of options which are all good but which you should pick dependent on the campaign you are in.

[RSP]

As suggested in the OP, seeing if you can upcast something to 8th is the best option.

Haven’t done MA 8 but my old Warlock did MA 7 as Conjure Fey (obviously summoning up to CR 7). Not sure there’s a particular reason to upcast it to 8th, but the CR 6 and 7 Hags are good.

I loved having a 1-hour Korred (CR 7) around: great in combat (including ranged combat) with at will Stone Shape is ridiculous.

[Chronos]

I hear you. When I created a warlock-like BBEG for my party, I ended up just leaving that spot blank.

As for the (houseruled) upcasting option, though, what breaks if you just allow that completely? Consider a Mystic Arcanum to be a single spell known and spell slot, so you can use a higher Arcanum to upcast a lower one, or any Arcanum to upcast any of your spells. Sure, warlock spells work differently than other casters', but that isn't as relevant when you're in tiers 3 and 4, and as it is, high-level warlock spells have all of the limitations of other casters but no benefits.

[heavyfuel]

Honestly, I'd pick Demiplane for utility, however limited that utility is, and would just use the 8th level slot for an extra Forcecage on 99% of the days.

[Chaos Jackal]

Honestly, I'd pick Demiplane for utility, however limited that utility is, and would just use the 8th level slot for an extra Forcecage on 99% of the days.

Sure, if your DM allows that, but a DM that allows that would probably also allow you to pick a lower-level spell and upcast it. As it is, however, since Mystic Arcanum doesn't use slots, you can't pull either off without houseruling.

[Psyren]

I'd consider dominate monster as well. Using it when combat has started can be tricky however.


Honestly, I'd pick Demiplane for utility, however limited that utility is, and would just use the 8th level slot for an extra Forcecage on 99% of the days.

You can't use a MA for any other spells than the one you picked for it as written sadly. Think of them as a set of 1/day SLAs (that still need components) that the class gets instead of having high level spell slots.

[heavyfuel]

Sure, if your DM allows that, but a DM that allows that would probably also allow you to pick a lower-level spell and upcast it. As it is, however, since Mystic Arcanum doesn't use slots, you can't pull either off without houseruling.


You can't use a MA for any other spells than the one you picked for it as written sadly. Think of them as a set of 1/day SLAs (that still need components) that the class gets instead of having high level spell slots.

Indeed, you are both right. Never realized MAs aren't running on spell slots.

Still, this honestly seems like the kinda of houserule that 99% of DMs would allow. Like choosing to fail a Dexterity save or targeting a creature that just swallowed you with a spell that requires you to see the target (because the Swallow action blinds the target)

[Psyren]

If I were to buff MAs at all, it would be to allow trading in a MA to get an upcast pact spell - but not letting you cast one MA in place of another. MAs should be less flexible than having high level slots, that's the price warlocks pay for their short-rest-recoverable magic and invocations.

[Mitchellnotes]

If I were to buff MAs at all, it would be to allow trading in a MA to get an upcast pact spell - but not letting you cast one MA in place of another. MAs should be less flexible than having high level slots, that's the price warlocks pay for their short-rest-recoverable magic and invocations.

I think thats fair. In all honesty, anything that lets warlocks make actual use out of planar binding is ok in my book! Its annoying that they get all the tools to do it, but cant really do it since they cant upcast planar binding /grumble

[RSP]

If I were to buff MAs at all, it would be to allow trading in a MA to get an upcast pact spell - but not letting you cast one MA in place of another. MAs should be less flexible than having high level slots, that's the price warlocks pay for their short-rest-recoverable magic and invocations.

Allowing upcasts for MA also let’s some Warlock spells work for the way they’re supposed to: Major Image is supposed to be Concentration-free if upcast with a 6th level slot.

RAW Warlocks aren’t able to ever cast it this way.

(Note: if upcasted MAs are allowed, MI is a fantastic choice for level 6 MA.)

[Psyren]

I think thats fair. In all honesty, anything that lets warlocks make actual use out of planar binding is ok in my book! Its annoying that they get all the tools to do it, but cant really do it since they cant upcast planar binding /grumble


Allowing upcasts for MA also let’s some Warlock spells work for the way they’re supposed to: Major Image is supposed to be Concentration-free if upcast with a 6th level slot.

RAW Warlocks aren’t able to ever cast it this way.

(Note: if upcasted MAs are allowed, MI is a fantastic house for level 6 MA.)

Yeah there a number of spells in the pact range that Warlocks just don't get the proper use out of due to not being able to upcast like other full casters.

(What's MI?)

[heavyfuel]

(What's MI?)

Major Image


If I were to buff MAs at all, it would be to allow trading in a MA to get an upcast pact spell - but not letting you cast one MA in place of another. MAs should be less flexible than having high level slots, that's the price warlocks pay for their short-rest-recoverable magic and invocations.

Though I never played a Tier 3 game with a Warlock, it's my impression in Tiers 1 and 2 that they are significantly less versatile than other full casters. Whatever upside there is to always having your spells fully upcast and regaining them on a Short Rest doesn't really compare to the downsides of having extremely few spells known and spells per rest. Two spells before needing to take a break means you're either short resting after every encounter or you're just playing a bad archer without access to any of the things that make archery so damn good in 5e (archery style/SS)

As such, I'd say buffing MAs might not be the end of the world as far as balancing goes.

[Chronos]

A warlock's Pact Magic should be balanced against a normal spellcaster's spells of levels 1 through 5. Which means that a warlock's high-level spells should likewise be balanced against a normal spellcaster's high-level spells.

[diplomancer]

A warlock's Pact Magic should be balanced against a normal spellcaster's spells of levels 1 through 5. Which means that a warlock's high-level spells should likewise be balanced against a normal spellcaster's high-level spells.

Somewhat. Don't forget that Warlocks get 3 more invocations over those levels. Bladelocks get one of their most defining invocations at 12th, and the 15th level invocations are nothing to sneer at.

Apart from Subclass features, here's what other casters get:
Bards get some tasty magical secrets (but this is still just moar spells), Clerics get nothing until 20th, Wizards and Druids get their first nice things at 18th (though, notably, the nice thing Druids get is only really useful for Moon Druids). Sorcerers get one more Metamagic, and one "extra" subclass feature (meaning, all casters get 1 subclass feature over those levels, sorcerers get 2).


Though I never played a Tier 3 game with a Warlock, it's my impression in Tiers 1 and 2 that they are significantly less versatile than other full casters. Whatever upside there is to always having your spells fully upcast and regaining them on a Short Rest doesn't really compare to the downsides of having extremely few spells known and spells per rest. Two spells before needing to take a break means you're either short resting after every encounter or you're just playing a bad archer without access to any of the things that make archery so damn good in 5e (archery style/SS)

As such, I'd say buffing MAs might not be the end of the world as far as balancing goes.

Having only 2 slots/SR is annoying, but not as bad as being "a bad archer". It means that:
1- you REALLY don't want to lose concentration, even more than other casters.
2- reaction spells are not as good an investment. I got Counterspell on my Warlock and regretted it, specially since we have a Wizard in the party.
3- you'd sell your soul (if you hadn't done it already ;) ) for magic items that give you more spells to cast, like a Staff of Fire.

But if you SR once every two fights (which is reasonable), it means that you have a "big opener", usually Concentration, at a fight, and then contribute to the fight with OK damage, either from Eldritch Blast or from Pact of the Blade. If you're a Pact of the Chain with Investment of the Chain Master, your Sprite is also causing some nice debuffs meanwhile.

[RSP]

Clerics get nothing until 20th,

Technically, they get increases in their Divine Intervention and Destroy Undead abilities.

[Pildion]

They're all pretty disappointing, I believe. But, considering this is the only 8th level spell you will ever have, which one would you say is the least bad?

(I know Mystic Arcanum frustrates a lot of people. I don't mind it that much for the other levels, as there are decent options I'd be happy to cast every time. But 8th level is just so meh. I hope, when it comes to it, I can convince my DM to let me select Summon Celestial -at 8th level power- for my Celestial Warlock).

If your the party FACE, then Glibness can't be beat. Its awesome. If your not then Feeblemind.

[diplomancer]

Technically, they get increases in their Divine Intervention and Destroy Undead abilities.

Technically true :p. Clerics with Divine Strike also technically get a damage boost if for some reason they're still using regular weapon attacks at 14th. But I still believe that all this adds up to, well, nothing.


If your the party FACE, then Glibness can't be beat. Its awesome. If your not then Feeblemind.

That'd be my first choice too, usually. Though I believe 15th level is where the campaign I'm playing my Warlock will end (Rise of Tiamat). And, no spoilers please if I'm wrong, I don't anticipate a heavy RP session on the last chapter! So I'm looking for things with more combat use.

[Psyren]

That'd be my first choice too, usually. Though I believe 15th level is where the campaign I'm playing my Warlock will end (Rise of Tiamat). And, no spoilers please if I'm wrong, I don't anticipate a heavy RP session on the last chapter! So I'm looking for things with more combat use.

If you want to hedge your bet, Dominate Monster is both :smallbiggrin: (Particularly if you can mind control something before combat starts.)

[Aquillion]

There are only six options, so:

Demiplane: Not flashy, and by the time you get it you should already have a lot of extra-dimensional storage, but having it does allow you to pull a few tricks that you otherwise couldn't. It gives you effectively unlimited storage (albeit with a throttled rate of access to that storage), and can store things much bigger than your usual containers, as well as creatures and the like. This spell also has interesting utility if you have powerful allies who can also cast it, since you can access each other's Demiplanes and use it for transportation and other tricks. You can also pull odd things by filling a demiplane with acid or lava or the like, assuming you find someplace with the necessa

Dominate Monster: Having another save-or-lose up your sleeve certainly never hurts, and when everything lines up perfectly this can do incredible things. Does require concentration though.

Feeblemind: Another save-or-lose. Probably the obvious choice in terms of raw power. It doesn't quite work on everything but realistically works on most of your most dangerous opponents, and has some utility if you want to take a dangerous enemy captive instead of killing them for some reason. Not requiring concentration is what puts this over the top and makes it the "default" choice if you don't have a compelling reason to take something else.

Glibness: If you're the party face this has some use; it's not flashy, but lengthy buffs with no concentration are quite rare in 5e, for good reason. Note that this also boosts the spellcasting ability checks called for by some other spells, like Counterspell and Telekinesis, making it more valuable to anyone who uses those. Still, this one is situational - not every Warlock makes significant numbers of Charisma checks.

Maddening Darkness does pretty good damage while also being battlefield control. This is an obvious choice for anyone who has Devil's Sight. Of course, when used for that trick, Darkness is only 2nd level and this is 8th - and you also don't want to drop this on yourself - but the difference between a 15-foot sphere and a 60-foot sphere is pretty huge. It's also a good spell if your party generally has other battlefield control capable of trapping an enemy in its radius.

Power Word: Stun has a lot of limitations, but there's still significant numbers of spellcasting enemies at high level who are affected by it, and it's guaranteed to make them lose at least one turn.

Honestly, while none of them are gamebreaking, all of them have their uses - nothing in this list is completely terrible.