Paladin/Bard and Song of the white Raven

[St0nemender]

Hi,

we are currently starting a new campaign using the D&D 3.5 system. For me it'S the first time so i dont have much experience (we were mostly playing SR, DSA and Pathfinder). Because i am stupid, i somehow volunteered to be the designated party healer, yet i dont really feel like playing a cleric, so instead i wanted to be a Paladin/Bard. With the bard and the Paladin heaving at least so access to healing spells, paired with a ton of party buffs, enemy debuffs, paired with the option of quite a lot of melee damage.

So the feats that are definetly needed are Devoted Performer, Initiate of Milil (to make the combination work), and then maybe Battle caster, to make that heavy mithril armor work. However, unlike Pathfinder, i found no option to speed up the bardic music (inspire courage mostly). The only thing i could find was Song of the white raven and i honestly dont really understand which feats i would have to take in order to make that work.

Does someone have an idea on how to speed up the bardic music? what would it take to make song of the raven work? I understand that 1lvl dips do not quite work for a multi-class-character, right?

[ixrisor]

The song of the white raven feat requires you to have a white raven manoeuvre to take, and a white raven manoeuvre to use. You can get those by taking 2 feats (martial study and martial stance), or by taking 1 level in warblade or crusader. SotWR will allow you to count that dip level as a bard level for your inspire courage bonus, so it shouldn’t delay your bard abilities much.

[St0nemender]

[...] by taking 1 level in warblade or crusader. SotWR will allow you to count that dip level as a bard level for your inspire courage bonus, so it shouldn’t delay your bard abilities much.

Is there a way to mitigate the XP-penalty from the 1 lvl dip?

[ixrisor]

Is there a way to mitigate the XP-penalty from the 1 lvl dip?

Many dms don’t use xp penalties, but if your dm does, then I’d advise against taking the dip. You could look at this paladin build for inspiration: https://www.enworld.org/threads/weekly-optimization-showcase-a-game-paladin-tempest_stormwind.471332/

[St0nemender]

Many dms don’t use xp penalties, but if your dm does, then I’d advise against taking the dip. You could look at this paladin build for inspiration: (too new to this forum tpo post links)

No. That build is most likely not legal RAW-wise and off-the-charts-illegal RAI-wise :-)

[ixrisor]

No. That build is most likely not legal RAW-wise and off-the-charts-illegal RAI-wise :-)

Which parts of it? There might be usable parts still

[Jervis]

Hi,

we are currently starting a new campaign using the D&D 3.5 system. For me it'S the first time so i dont have much experience (we were mostly playing SR, DSA and Pathfinder). Because i am stupid, i somehow volunteered to be the designated party healer, yet i dont really feel like playing a cleric, so instead i wanted to be a Paladin/Bard. With the bard and the Paladin heaving at least so access to healing spells, paired with a ton of party buffs, enemy debuffs, paired with the option of quite a lot of melee damage.

So the feats that are definetly needed are Devoted Performer, Initiate of Milil (to make the combination work), and then maybe Battle caster, to make that heavy mithril armor work. However, unlike Pathfinder, i found no option to speed up the bardic music (inspire courage mostly). The only thing i could find was Song of the white raven and i honestly dont really understand which feats i would have to take in order to make that work.

Does someone have an idea on how to speed up the bardic music? what would it take to make song of the raven work? I understand that 1lvl dips do not quite work for a multi-class-character, right?

If all you want is melee damage and healing then Crusader is probably better, they can heal party members by hitting things. Also makes getting White Raven stuff easier

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want to do bardic healing the healing hymn ACF in Complete Champion (pg 47) affects any Conjuration (Healing) spell cast by an ally (but not magic items), granting a +1 sacred or profane on the amount healed per rank you have in a Perform skill. That includes spells cast by yourself.

[St0nemender]

Which parts of it? There might be usable parts still

Well, the Character is both Knight of the Mystic Fire (requires to worship Mystra) and Harmonious Knight (requires to worship Milil), thats pretty much impossible - especially for a Paladin.

Most of the other things i had already thought of, but while i like the concept of the Harmonious Knight, i'd like the bard spells even more. For now i was planning to go with Paladin (6) and Bard (14).

[hamishspence]

Mystra and Milil are both NG and "on excellent terms" - and there are LG clerics of both deities. Fluffwise, someone who pays most respect to two deities simulaneously rather than one, picking those two, would not be out of the question.

[St0nemender]

Mystra and Milil are both NG and "on excellent terms" - and there are LG clerics of both deities. Fluffwise, someone who pays most respect to two deities simulaneously rather than one, picking those two, would not be out of the question.

I disagree. Respectfully. The whole concept of the Paladin is that he draws his power from the support of divine being. It's really hard to see how a Paladin would devote his life to two different deitys, even if they are on good terms.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I disagree. Respectfully. The whole concept of the Paladin is that he draws his power from the support of divine being.Paladins aren't clerics, and even clerics can pay their respects to deities allied with their own, and neither of those gods require people to solely worship only them, to my knowledge.

[hamishspence]

One of the sample characters in Champions of Valor was exactly that - a paladin of one deity, who serves another deity as well.

He's a dwarf paladin of Gorm the minor dwarf god, but who serves Helm, the more generic god. His shield bears the symbols of both deities. And he has a feat that requires him to be a "Paladin of Helm".



"Breyarg qualifies for this feat because although he worships Gorm Gulthyn, Gorm is lending his service to Helm".




You could have a "Paladin of Milil in service to Mystra" in the same way.

[hamishspence]

In the Realms, only the most ferociously jealous deities, like Cyric, absolutely prohibit their priests and lay worshippers from making any kind of offering to others.

[Anthrowhale]

The best way to be a Paladin/Bard is probably to be a Cleric actually.

For the Paladin, get the 'Persistent Spell' feat and persist divine favor/divine power to deal damage. Take a level or two of prestige paladin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) for paladin-like abilities and spell access. Considering taking the Serenity feat to rebase your paladin abilities on wisdom. Use the spells Sense Weakness and Surge of Fortune to lay down some serious smites. At higher levels get yourself a vorpal blade so your "smite" is a decapitator.

On the Bard side, there are several feats which combo songs with cleric levels. Perhaps the simplest is just Initiate of Milil. In addition you can choose to be a cloistered cleric (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) for lore and skill points, while using the spell Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar to make some incredible skill checks. As far as spells, you can take the Spell Domain and use spontaneous domain casting from PHB2 to cast a wide selection of arcane spells out of your 3rd or 6th level domain slots.

[Jervis]

The best way to be a Paladin/Bard is probably to be a Cleric actually.

For the Paladin, get the 'Persistent Spell' feat and persist divine favor/divine power to deal damage. Take a level or two of prestige paladin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) for paladin-like abilities and spell access. Considering taking the Serenity feat to rebase your paladin abilities on wisdom. Use the spells Sense Weakness and Surge of Fortune to lay down some serious smites. At higher levels get yourself a vorpal blade so your "smite" is a decapitator.

On the Bard side, there are several feats which combo songs with cleric levels. Perhaps the simplest is just Initiate of Milil. In addition you can choose to be a cloistered cleric (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) for lore and skill points, while using the spell Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar to make some incredible skill checks. As far as spells, you can take the Spell Domain and use spontaneous domain casting from PHB2 to cast a wide selection of arcane spells out of your 3rd or 6th level domain slots.

Alternatively Bardic Sage from UA qualifies for Prestige Paladin.

[Balthanon]

Is there a way to mitigate the XP-penalty from the 1 lvl dip?

...

Most of the other things i had already thought of, but while i like the concept of the Harmonious Knight, i'd like the bard spells even more. For now i was planning to go with Paladin (6) and Bard (14).


If you're a human, the easiest way to negate the penalty might be to reduce your paladin levels and increase crusader levels. If you keep those within one level of each other you won't face XP penalties (Tome of Battle also multiclasses really well). The same also applies if you have bard as a favored class. Prestige classes also have the advantage of having no penalties at all if you want to play around with those and could potentially progress your spellcasting and give you better martial skills (though you would probably be sacrificing some bardic music).

Is there something in particular you're aiming for with 14 levels of Bard? It's an odd amount-- you lose base attack bonus at 13, but don't reach 6th level spells at 16, your inspire courage is the sum of both paladin and bard (if I recall the feats correctly) so that isn't a driver and that's the only thing bard 14 does really.

[Bronk]

One of the sample characters in Champions of Valor was exactly that - a paladin of one deity, who serves another deity as well.

He's a dwarf paladin of Gorm the minor dwarf god, but who serves Helm, the more generic god. His shield bears the symbols of both deities. And he has a feat that requires him to be a "Paladin of Helm".

"Breyarg qualifies for this feat because although he worships Gorm Gulthyn, Gorm is lending his service to Helm".

You could have a "Paladin of Milil in service to Mystra" in the same way.

There's also the "heretic of the faith" feat from Power of Faerun, which would be perfect for this.

[Telonius]

Alternatively Bardic Sage from UA qualifies for Prestige Paladin.

Divine Bard (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) is the one you're looking for, in UA. (Bardic Sage is the one that gets you extra Divination spells; Divine Bard makes your spells divine instead of arcane). Since they're all divine now, you won't need Battle Caster, freeing up a very-much-needed feat slot. Prestige Paladin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) does require you to be LG, so you could start out as NG (for your Divine Bard) and change alignment as soon as you prestige out. Since it's a prestige class, rather than a regular class, you could still potentially take a 1-level dip in Warblade or Crusader (to get you White Raven goodies), if you're human (or something else that has Bard as a favored class).

So, something like Bard1-5->Warblade/Crusader1->Bard6->Prestige Paladin1-10->Bard7-9

The feat progression might look something like this.

1: Melodic Casting, X (if human; Able Learner might be good due to Bard's big skill list and multiclass/prestige class stuff)
3: Power Attack
6: Song of the White Raven
9: Devoted Performer
12: Initiate of Milil
15: Battle Blessing
18: X

[St0nemender]

I was really excited at first but i think that wont work:

Requirements Prestige Paladin:

Base Attack Bonus: +4 - *check*
Alignment: Lawful good - can be done *check*
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks , Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 2 ranks , Ride 4 ranks *check*
Feats: Mounted Combat - well, there goes the feat, we save *check*
Spellcasting: Ability to cast protection from evil as a divine spell. *check*
Special: Ability to turn undead. - erm.... eh... hm.?:frown:

[Jervis]

I was really excited at first but i think that wont work:

Requirements Prestige Paladin:

Base Attack Bonus: +4 - *check*
Alignment: Lawful good - can be done *check*
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks , Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 2 ranks , Ride 4 ranks *check*
Feats: Mounted Combat - well, there goes the feat, we save *check*
Spellcasting: Ability to cast protection from evil as a divine spell. *check*
Special: Ability to turn undead. - erm.... eh... hm.?:frown:

Planar Touchstone for Sun Domain (DLCS)?

[St0nemender]

Planar Touchstone for Sun Domain (DLCS)?

Erm.... what?

[InvisibleBison]

Another problem with prestige paladin is that it's a variant rule and you can't assume it's available. In fact, if regular paladin is available you should assume that prestige paladin isn't.

[Jervis]

Erm.... what?

Sun Domain, the Dragonlance Campain Setting version, gives turn undead. It’s only available to Mystics and people with the Planar Touchstone feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Here are some other sources of turn undead. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?338254-Gaining-Turn-Undead-Class-Ability)