Vaern
2022-01-08, 06:16 PM
I've been pondering ways to turn typically arcane spells into divine spell scrolls, and the discussion in the RAW thread seems to have gone far enough to warrant a new thread for the matter.
Archivists learn cleric spells as they level up, but also have the ability to scribe non-cleric spells in their prayerbook from divine spell scrolls. This puts archivists in a unique position where they don't actually have a class spell list, but instead can collect and utilize any spell so long as it is divine. Right off the bat, they have open access to the entireties of the cleric, druid, ranger, and paladin spell lists. With Unearthed Arcana variants in play, the existence of the divine bard opens up the entire bard spell list to the archivist.
Some spells that are typically only available to wizards and sorcerers may be accessed through cleric domains. But what about the rest of them? If a spell is available exclusively to arcane casters, how can we get our hands on a divine scroll of that spell to scribe it in our prayerbook?
The first idea that I had involved the alternate source spell metamagic feat, which was mentioned in a thread recently. Have a scroll scribed for yourself with the metamagic feat applied - perhaps using a homebrewed metamagic rod (which, by the pricing formula of metamagic rods, would cost the same as energy substitution) which could be lent to wizards as needed while they scribed your scrolls - and there you go. A divine variation of an arcane spell scroll.
Afterwards, though, I realized that this wouldn't work due to a bit of text in the description of scrolls regarding types of scrolls:
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
If, for example, you had a wizard scribe a scroll of alternate source lightning bolt for you, the end result is still an arcane scroll. Granted, an arcane scroll that creates a divine effect, but it's still technically an arcane spell scroll by RAW since an arcane caster scribed it.
This brings me to my second idea. Scribe the scrolls yourself. You have a few options available here.
The first option here is http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/ritual-transference--3782/index.html]ritual transference. This allows other characters to transfer their experience points to you for the purpose of creating magic items. With sufficient ranks in knowledge (arcana/religion), though, it also allows another character to supply prerequisite spells for the creation of a magic item that you otherwise meet the prerequisites for. As archivists get the scribe scroll feat for free, this feat allows you to scribe a scroll of any spell so long as another caster is willing to supply that spell to you. And remember that quote from before:
The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.
Another character supplies the spell, but you, the archivist, are the one with the item creation feat who is creating the scroll. The end result will be a divine scroll.
The second option for scribing your own scrolls is to just use another scroll, per the RAW thread.
Q 39
Can an item that casts a spell, like a wand or a scroll, be used in place of expending the spell yourself when crafting a magic item?
A 39
Yes.
Since this answer is in agreement with the narrative I'm attempting to spin here, I've simply accepted the "yes" as fact without requesting a particular citation or attempting to verify it myself.
So, you get yourself an arcane spell scroll. You expend the scroll to scribe a new scroll of the same spell. Because the new scroll is created by you, an archivist and divine caster, the resulting scroll is divine. Having to copy every arcane scroll you want to learn before being able to scribe it in your prayer book can become very expensive, of course, but it does cut out an extra feat and the middle man required for the ritual transference method.
This last idea - simply copying scrolls and then copying the copy to your prayer book - seems like the simplest solution to me and is the one that I'm currently leaning into for this shenanigan, but it was met with quite a bit of contention in the RAW thread.
As others have stated, if someone else activates the scroll, or UMD is employed, arcane spell makes the resulting scroll arcane. Note, this sort of trick sould result in a single scroll having a mixture of deivine and arcane spells, which I think may be against the rules thus could result in unexpected side-effects!
To this, my response is that the type of scroll created is still determined by the class of the person scribing the scroll. Whether the spell being fed into the item creation process is arcane or divine doesn't seem to factor into the equation. If you are an arcane caster, the scroll you scribe comes out arcane. If you are a divine caster, you get a divine scroll.
Admittedly, I do like the idea of the mixture of arcane and divine magic having unexpected results. I could see one DM I've played with in particular allowing me to get away with this kind of cheese, but then ruling that my crude practice of using divine energy to power typically-arcane spells works like a machine burning the wrong kind of fuel. Spells might work normally. They could fizzle if I'm unlucky. They could blow up in my face if I'm having a particularly bad day.
Arguably you aren’t casting it. You’re emulating a wizard casting it
"Emulate a class feature" and "use a scroll" are two separate uses of UMD. When you use UMD to activate a scroll, you aren't emulating another class. In fact, this is what the skill description says:
Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.
When you activate a scroll of lightning bolt, you aren't using it as though you're a wizard. Rather, you're using the scroll as though lightning bolt was an archivist 3 spell. You are, in effect, an archivist casting an archivist spell.
Also, there was one more suggestion from Jervis worth noting:
A 40 c? In that case, grab leadership to get a warlock cohort. Technically there's nothing in then rules stopping them from, say, making a divine scroll of Wings of Flurry. It doesn't say what list they're drawing from, just divine or arcane. That descriptor doesn't lock it to any list strictly speaking. Alternitively alternate source spell feat on a warlock cohort (maybe tricky) can probably do it. Chameleons can do the same thing for up to 6th level spells, or higher with cheese. (In fact Chameleons are better at being a archivist than a archivist is because they do it with all spells, not just divine, but you need heavy cheese to get spells above 6th on them)
I'm not familiar with the Chameleon, so I can't comment on them until I've taken the time to read up on the subject.
But, as for warlocks, they're a bit wishy-washy. They don't really have spells known or actually cast spells, so they technically aren't locked into being either arcane or divine. Since they can mimic both arcane and divine spells when imbuing items, I could see this being a valid approach.
But, on the other hand, since they're from Complete Arcane and their invocation and eldritch blast are treated as arcane casting for the purpose of prestige class progression, I'd expect a DM to rule that they should be regarded as an arcane class and thus produce arcane scrolls if I was to bring it to the table. In this case, alternate source spell should probably - as previously stated - result in a weird case where the scroll is considered to be arcane despite producing a divine spell effect.
It certainly seems like using a warlock could be worth a shot and you could certainly use their explicit lack of actual spellcasting to make a strong argument against them being arcane casters, but I don't think they're an airtight solution.
Anyway, what are your thoughts on the whole thing?
Is there anything I missed that pokes a hole in my plan? Preferably with an actual rules citation if there is something somewhere that says, for example, that it is in fact the spell and not the class that determines a scroll's type.
Are there other ideas you can think of to turn a typically-arcane spell into a divine scroll?
If this shenanigan was to work, will all of the conversations about generic spellcasters being so strong because of their access to four major spell lists now turn instead to the archivist who could potentially have access to all spell lists?
Archivists learn cleric spells as they level up, but also have the ability to scribe non-cleric spells in their prayerbook from divine spell scrolls. This puts archivists in a unique position where they don't actually have a class spell list, but instead can collect and utilize any spell so long as it is divine. Right off the bat, they have open access to the entireties of the cleric, druid, ranger, and paladin spell lists. With Unearthed Arcana variants in play, the existence of the divine bard opens up the entire bard spell list to the archivist.
Some spells that are typically only available to wizards and sorcerers may be accessed through cleric domains. But what about the rest of them? If a spell is available exclusively to arcane casters, how can we get our hands on a divine scroll of that spell to scribe it in our prayerbook?
The first idea that I had involved the alternate source spell metamagic feat, which was mentioned in a thread recently. Have a scroll scribed for yourself with the metamagic feat applied - perhaps using a homebrewed metamagic rod (which, by the pricing formula of metamagic rods, would cost the same as energy substitution) which could be lent to wizards as needed while they scribed your scrolls - and there you go. A divine variation of an arcane spell scroll.
Afterwards, though, I realized that this wouldn't work due to a bit of text in the description of scrolls regarding types of scrolls:
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
If, for example, you had a wizard scribe a scroll of alternate source lightning bolt for you, the end result is still an arcane scroll. Granted, an arcane scroll that creates a divine effect, but it's still technically an arcane spell scroll by RAW since an arcane caster scribed it.
This brings me to my second idea. Scribe the scrolls yourself. You have a few options available here.
The first option here is http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/ritual-transference--3782/index.html]ritual transference. This allows other characters to transfer their experience points to you for the purpose of creating magic items. With sufficient ranks in knowledge (arcana/religion), though, it also allows another character to supply prerequisite spells for the creation of a magic item that you otherwise meet the prerequisites for. As archivists get the scribe scroll feat for free, this feat allows you to scribe a scroll of any spell so long as another caster is willing to supply that spell to you. And remember that quote from before:
The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.
Another character supplies the spell, but you, the archivist, are the one with the item creation feat who is creating the scroll. The end result will be a divine scroll.
The second option for scribing your own scrolls is to just use another scroll, per the RAW thread.
Q 39
Can an item that casts a spell, like a wand or a scroll, be used in place of expending the spell yourself when crafting a magic item?
A 39
Yes.
Since this answer is in agreement with the narrative I'm attempting to spin here, I've simply accepted the "yes" as fact without requesting a particular citation or attempting to verify it myself.
So, you get yourself an arcane spell scroll. You expend the scroll to scribe a new scroll of the same spell. Because the new scroll is created by you, an archivist and divine caster, the resulting scroll is divine. Having to copy every arcane scroll you want to learn before being able to scribe it in your prayer book can become very expensive, of course, but it does cut out an extra feat and the middle man required for the ritual transference method.
This last idea - simply copying scrolls and then copying the copy to your prayer book - seems like the simplest solution to me and is the one that I'm currently leaning into for this shenanigan, but it was met with quite a bit of contention in the RAW thread.
As others have stated, if someone else activates the scroll, or UMD is employed, arcane spell makes the resulting scroll arcane. Note, this sort of trick sould result in a single scroll having a mixture of deivine and arcane spells, which I think may be against the rules thus could result in unexpected side-effects!
To this, my response is that the type of scroll created is still determined by the class of the person scribing the scroll. Whether the spell being fed into the item creation process is arcane or divine doesn't seem to factor into the equation. If you are an arcane caster, the scroll you scribe comes out arcane. If you are a divine caster, you get a divine scroll.
Admittedly, I do like the idea of the mixture of arcane and divine magic having unexpected results. I could see one DM I've played with in particular allowing me to get away with this kind of cheese, but then ruling that my crude practice of using divine energy to power typically-arcane spells works like a machine burning the wrong kind of fuel. Spells might work normally. They could fizzle if I'm unlucky. They could blow up in my face if I'm having a particularly bad day.
Arguably you aren’t casting it. You’re emulating a wizard casting it
"Emulate a class feature" and "use a scroll" are two separate uses of UMD. When you use UMD to activate a scroll, you aren't emulating another class. In fact, this is what the skill description says:
Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.
When you activate a scroll of lightning bolt, you aren't using it as though you're a wizard. Rather, you're using the scroll as though lightning bolt was an archivist 3 spell. You are, in effect, an archivist casting an archivist spell.
Also, there was one more suggestion from Jervis worth noting:
A 40 c? In that case, grab leadership to get a warlock cohort. Technically there's nothing in then rules stopping them from, say, making a divine scroll of Wings of Flurry. It doesn't say what list they're drawing from, just divine or arcane. That descriptor doesn't lock it to any list strictly speaking. Alternitively alternate source spell feat on a warlock cohort (maybe tricky) can probably do it. Chameleons can do the same thing for up to 6th level spells, or higher with cheese. (In fact Chameleons are better at being a archivist than a archivist is because they do it with all spells, not just divine, but you need heavy cheese to get spells above 6th on them)
I'm not familiar with the Chameleon, so I can't comment on them until I've taken the time to read up on the subject.
But, as for warlocks, they're a bit wishy-washy. They don't really have spells known or actually cast spells, so they technically aren't locked into being either arcane or divine. Since they can mimic both arcane and divine spells when imbuing items, I could see this being a valid approach.
But, on the other hand, since they're from Complete Arcane and their invocation and eldritch blast are treated as arcane casting for the purpose of prestige class progression, I'd expect a DM to rule that they should be regarded as an arcane class and thus produce arcane scrolls if I was to bring it to the table. In this case, alternate source spell should probably - as previously stated - result in a weird case where the scroll is considered to be arcane despite producing a divine spell effect.
It certainly seems like using a warlock could be worth a shot and you could certainly use their explicit lack of actual spellcasting to make a strong argument against them being arcane casters, but I don't think they're an airtight solution.
Anyway, what are your thoughts on the whole thing?
Is there anything I missed that pokes a hole in my plan? Preferably with an actual rules citation if there is something somewhere that says, for example, that it is in fact the spell and not the class that determines a scroll's type.
Are there other ideas you can think of to turn a typically-arcane spell into a divine scroll?
If this shenanigan was to work, will all of the conversations about generic spellcasters being so strong because of their access to four major spell lists now turn instead to the archivist who could potentially have access to all spell lists?