Fun spell combinations

[Shinizak]

This is just a thread for really cool spell or ability combos.

[Yakmala]

Why cheat at cards with slight of hand when you can cheat with spells?

Play a character that knows the spell Command. Pick up subtle spell either by multi-classing into sorcerer or taking the metamagic adept feat.

Got a losing hand? Subtle spell command "fold" to your opponent.

Got a winning hand? Subtle spell command "raise" to your opponent.

Enjoy your winnings!

[Leon]

Does Grease still let you set them on fire in 5e?

[Segev]

There's a semi-obvious synergy of hex with anything that forces ability checks, such as grappling. Having a warlock hex intelligence and then another caster using any of using most of the illusion spells would also be effective in an obviously-intended sort of way.

The oft-mentioned sickening radiance/wall of force combination is pretty solid if you can pull it off. Entangle or web could be similarly effective, if less reliable.

Allegedly, a tweet says this isn't intended, but the RAW do provide that going to zero hit points while polymorphed happens before the detransformation and roll-over to the target's own hit points. Thus means any spell – such as disintegrate – which kills or has other effects upon reducing the target to zero hp would trigger on the polymorphed form being reduced to zero hit points. So polymorph a high-hp creature into a 1 hp toad and disintegrate it.

Sleep also works with polymorphed creatures. Good for nonlethal captures, but less good in that you need to use a higher level spell.

Also somewhat obvious are animal friendship, beast bond, and beast sense.

Evard's black tentacles is not a very good spell for its level (with web and entangle being as good or better at restriction of movement and the damage being little to write home about, but that and hunger of Hadar in the same space is thematic and can hold creatures in the area. It does require two casters, though.

Phantom steed is allegedly good for any wizard who wants to make his contribution be casting a concentration spell and then fleeing, though personally I suspect the fact that any damage at all ends the spell makes it less useful in practice.

Illusions of false walls placed repeatedly, followed by one that is still an illusion, but with a prismatic wall or other lethal trap behind it, could lead to some careless "I push through the wall" shenanigans.

[Yakmala]

Another fun combo to really annoy an enemy.

Step 1: Polymorph the enemy into a small bird.

Step 2: Cast Animal Messenger on the bird and send it somewhere far away.

Polymorph will wear off in an hour (two hours with extended spell) but when it does, the enemy has a long walk home, assuming they survive the fall or aren’t plunging into the ocean miles away from land.

[Kane0]

Slow + Difficult terrain (Web, Spike Growth, Erupting Earth, etc) is pretty fun and effective, especially if you have something that can put creatures back into the area (Telekinetic feat, repelling blast, etc)

[Khrysaes]

Slow + Difficult terrain (Web, Spike Growth, Erupting Earth, etc) is pretty fun and effective, especially if you have something that can put creatures back into the area (Telekinetic feat, repelling blast, etc)

Or spike growth + forced movement spells such as bigby's hand: grasping hand or telekinsesis

[Psyren]

lock tough enemy that can't teleport in Forcecage + cast Faithful Hound inside = 4d8 magical piercing damage to target, every round for the next 600 rounds without using your concentration. Take a short rest, when you're done whatever it is is chewed up (or just leave.)

[JackPhoenix]

Why cheat at cards with slight of hand when you can cheat with spells?

Play a character that knows the spell Command. Pick up subtle spell either by multi-classing into sorcerer or taking the metamagic adept feat.

Got a losing hand? Subtle spell command "fold" to your opponent.

Got a winning hand? Subtle spell command "raise" to your opponent.

Enjoy your winnings!

Subtle spell removes the need for V component, but not the requirement to speak the command.

[Dualight]

Of course, if you have some manner of telepathy, onlookers will be fooled, although the target might give the game away immediately after the command resolves. Really, subtle dominate monster works better for this scenario, as it would guarantee that your target won't reveal your cheating before it is too late.

[stoutstien]

Any spell or effect that reduces speed by 1/4 and difficult terrain stack. Plant growth + spike growth for example. If you can mix in prone or flat speed reduction it's death for most NPCs.

Web +fire ball, scorching Ray, whatever fire spell. Restrainded and take an extra bit of damage if they can't escape the web before the round recycles. Eats away at the CC but one round is usually enough for everyone to get in their licks.

Magic stone + tiny servants. Fairly well known but still a potent mini archery line. Can also cast magic stone with your familiar so you don't need to necessarily be all that close to them.

Thornwhip+ bonfire. Low overhead blender.

[TheBrassDuke]

Subtle spell removes the need for V component, but not the requirement to speak the command.

Since when is “the command” for a spell not the verbal component?

[stoutstien]

Since when is “the command” for a spell not the verbal component?

I believe he's referring to the rest of the spell descriptions which states that the creature must be able to hear and understand you in order for it to take effect. Think of it this way, if the target was deaf, which is reasonably the effects of removing the verbal component of command, would you allow the spell to take effect

[Hiro Quester]

You can still effectively say "You really should FOLD" or "You really should RAISE", as the verbal component of the Command spell, and it still sounds to everyone like regular card game trash talking.

[JackPhoenix]

Since when is “the command” for a spell not the verbal component?

Since the PHB was first printed. Components of the spell are separate from its effects.


You can still effectively say "You really should FOLD" or "You really should RAISE", as the verbal component of the Command spell, and it still sounds to everyone like regular card game trash talking.

Problem with Command is that the command is a single word. Saying "You really should...", then pausing for however long it takes to cast the spell before continuing with "...FOLD." will sound pretty weird and suspicious.

[The_Jette]

Since the PHB was first printed. Components of the spell are separate from its effects.



Problem with Command is that the command is a single word. Saying "You really should...", then pausing for however long it takes to cast the spell before continuing with "...FOLD." will sound pretty weird and suspicious.

If someone was going to build their character around cheating at card games (not that I would suggest it, as it seems rather limiting compared to what an adventurer could build towards), then they could build the random pauses into their character. If they always talk like that, nobody will really become suspicious of it, since it won't be out of place. Also, if nothing else, it gives the character some sort of distinct trait that can be recalled easily.

[JackPhoenix]

If someone was going to build their character around cheating at card games (not that I would suggest it, as it seems rather limiting compared to what an adventurer could build towards), then they could build the random pauses into their character. If they always talk like that, nobody will really become suspicious of it, since it won't be out of place. Also, if nothing else, it gives the character some sort of distinct trait that can be recalled easily.

If someone was going to build their character around cheating at card games, I would suggest to look for a different method than mind control magic that doesn't prevent the victim from going "Hey, I had a good hand, he ordered me to fold and I did for no other reason, he's a witch!" 6 seconds later.

[Psyren]

@ the "Subtle Command" tangent: Just replace Command with Suggestion, done. You have to verbalize your instruction there too, but it can be a whole sentence.

[Sorinth]

Eldritch Blast from undead warlock to frighten an enemy inside the web spell can be fun. Even when they free themselves they might not be able to leave the web due to the frightened condition. And since you can force movement back into the web with EB it can be a pretty strong. And if it's not your web then hex can also synergize.

[KorvinStarmast]

Does Grease still let you set them on fire in 5e? No unless the DM rules yes based on a desire for some verisimilitude or previous edition fun.

Slow + Difficult terrain (Web, Spike Growth, Erupting Earth, etc) is pretty fun and effective, especially if you have something that can put creatures back into the area (Telekinetic feat, repelling blast, etc) Add ray of frost on top for extra slow mo.

Any spell or effect that reduces speed by 1/4 and difficult terrain stack. Plant growth + spike growth for example. If you can mix in prone or flat speed reduction it's death for most NPCs. Grapple and prone kind of combo as well ...

Web +fire ball, scorching Ray, whatever fire spell. Restrainded and take an extra bit of damage if they can't escape the web before the round recycles. Eats away at the CC but one round is usually enough for everyone to get in their licks. We used that with some frequency, my lock with web wand and wizard with fireball. The disad on the dex saves was the sweet part, the extra 2d4 damage gravy.

[XmonkTad]

lock tough enemy that can't teleport in Forcecage + cast Faithful Hound inside = 4d8 magical piercing damage to target, every round for the next 600 rounds without using your concentration. Take a short rest, when you're done whatever it is is chewed up (or just leave.)

That's a great one. I've never really found a use for the Hound (since it seems immobile) but putting an enemy in lockup is perfect for it.

[Mitchellnotes]

Tasha's mind whip and anything that requires an action (like web or evard's). An enemy can 't move and use an action to get out, so end up being likely being stuck again

[Dr. Murgunstrum]

Since when is “the command” for a spell not the verbal component?

Since always.

Verbal components are described as such: “ Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion.”

Combine with page 19 of the collected sage advice:

“Is the sentence of suggestion in the suggestion spell the verbal component, or is the verbal component separate?

Verbal components are mystic words (PH, 203), not normal speech. The spell’s suggestion is an intelligible utterance that is separate from the verbal component. The command spell is the simplest example of this principle. The utterance of the verbal component is separate from, and precedes, any verbal utterance that would bring about the spell’s effect.”

https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf#page=19

Without subtle spell metamagic, you would be chanting “hocus pocus ala ma jocus” at the card table, then suggesting they fold.

[Dr. Murgunstrum]

Since the PHB was first printed. Components of the spell are separate from its effects.



Problem with Command is that the command is a single word. Saying "You really should...", then pausing for however long it takes to cast the spell before continuing with "...FOLD." will sound pretty weird and suspicious.

Yet saying “FOLD, you know you have nothing” after a silence is less weird or suspicious.

Or “RAISE, against my hand? I don’t think that’s smart”.

I’d certainly allow it.

[sethdmichaels]

i'm playing a (suboptimal but fun) monk-light cleric multiclass and the other night, surrounded by Yuan-Ti, got to pull off a really fun synergy: using the "radiance of the dawn" Channel Divinity to blast every opponent in a 30-foot radius, then bonus-action disengaging the heck out of there.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Yet saying “FOLD, you know you have nothing” after a silence is less weird or suspicious.

Or “RAISE, against my hand? I don’t think that’s smart”.

I’d certainly allow it.

As others said above, the only good way to do this is a telepathic, subtle Suggestion spell. Aberrant Mind Sorcerer sounds about right for this. A mentally whispered Suggestion like "You should let this fool win for awhile...throw the game for an hour to pull him in and build his confidence, then raise the stakes and clean him out."

Obviously, you walk away after an hour when he suggests raising the stakes. The victim still thinks it was a good idea for another 7 hours (or whenever you drop concentration), even though it "didn't work" and he lost money.

[JackPhoenix]

As others said above, the only good way to do this is a telepathic, subtle Suggestion spell. Aberrant Mind Sorcerer sounds about right for this. A mentally whispered Suggestion like "You should let this fool win for awhile...throw the game for an hour to pull him in and build his confidence, then raise the stakes and clean him out."

Obviously, you walk away after an hour when he suggests raising the stakes. The victim still thinks it was a good idea for another 7 hours (or whenever you drop concentration), even though it "didn't work" and he lost money.

That's 3 different suggestions, not one.

[Guy Lombard-O]

That's 3 different suggestions, not one.

"You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two)". This is one course of activity. Trying to divide it up into 3 different courses of activity wouldn't even make sense.

1. Let this fool win for awhile
2. throw the game for an hour to pull him in and build his confidence
3. raise the stakes and clean him out

1 and 2 are basically the same thing. 2 just puts a possible time limit on 1, defining it better.

3 is the conclusion of the single course of activity. It just adds language to clarify why it's reasonable

It's like when pool or card sharks lure a mark in, get them betting and let them win so they'll put more on the line, then move in for the kill when there's more money on the line. I'm sure the strategy probably has a name that could be boiled down to a word or two. But it's clearly one single, cohesive strategy, one course of action. Breaking it down to the components is kind of silly, isn't it? That's sort of like saying that "walk across town" multiple suggestions, because it's more than a single step to reach the other end of town.

But if you'd rule it as just 1 takes effect? Well, then end result is basically the same.

[Leon]

No unless the DM rules yes based on a desire for some verisimilitude or previous edition fun.


Oh well.

Fog and Spike Growth, had forgotten this one till last session when it came up and shredded a lot of orcs.

[tokek]

Elemental Weapon + Holy Weapon

Pass it to your Fighter and invite them to Action Surge.

Assuming you are 9th level and upcasting its a +2 weapon that does an additional 2d4 (probably thunder) + 2d6 radiant with every hit. Things die fast.

Thor's hammer time.

[TheCleverGuy]

Elemental Weapon + Holy Weapon

Pass it to your Fighter and invite them to Action Surge.

Assuming you are 9th level and upcasting its a +2 weapon that does an additional 2d4 (probably thunder) + 2d6 radiant with every hit. Things die fast.

Thor's hammer time.

This one doesn't actually work, per RAW. Both Elemental Weapon and Magic Weapon specifically target non-magical weapons and make the targeted weapon magical. As soon as one spell is cast, the targeted weapon becomes magical and is therefore not an eligible target for the other spell.

[Rashagar]

I've been trying to think of silly spell combinations that make use of Rime's Binding Ice. Best I could come up with was combining it with Stinking Cloud.

[Gignere]

This one doesn't actually work, per RAW. Both Elemental Weapon and Magic Weapon specifically target non-magical weapons and make the targeted weapon magical. As soon as one spell is cast, the targeted weapon becomes magical and is therefore not an eligible target for the other spell.

I think it works if you cast elemental weapon on a non magical weapon. Holy weapon doesn’t need to start with a nonmagical weapon.

[Bobthewizard]

Fly and Polymorph. A flying T-Rex is awesome.

[tiornys]

Evard's black tentacles is not a very good spell for its level (with web and entangle being as good or better at restriction of movement and the damage being little to write home about, but that and hunger of Hadar in the same space is thematic and can hold creatures in the area. It does require two casters, though.
Evard's Black Tentacles is better than you think. Entangle is only comparable in initial effect--its major weakness is that there's no way to force creatures to repeat the save. Web has advantages in 3D placement and duration, but EBT has better range and also the subtle benefit that a creature pushed into EBT will have to make two saves to avoid being restrained, whereas a creature pushed into Web only needs one (EBT: "When a creature enters the affected area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there"; Web: "Each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that enters them during its turn").

So that's the restraint half of the spell. On the damage half, you're right that the die roll is lower than other damage over time spells like Sickening Radiance (4d10) or Spirit Guardians (3d8, or 4d8 if upcast to 4th). However, EBT's damage has a subtle advantage that makes it a little better than it looks: once a creature has failed their save the damage is automatic, no save to half/avoid, until they free themselves. But what really makes EBT unique and justifies the level is that it's a self-contained combo. Web needs a source of damage or it only does control. Sickening Radiance needs movement restriction or it's just an incentive to leave an area--EBT doesn't need a second caster to combo with (although you're right that adding HoH is thematic and awesome), and that's a lot of the strength of the spell.

[PhantomSoul]

Evard's Black Tentacles is better than you think. Entangle is only comparable in initial effect--its major weakness is that there's no way to force creatures to repeat the save. Web has advantages in 3D placement and duration, but EBT has better range and also the subtle benefit that a creature pushed into EBT will have to make two saves to avoid being restrained, whereas a creature pushed into Web only needs one (EBT: "When a creature enters the affected area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there"; Web: "Each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that enters them during its turn").

So that's the restraint half of the spell. On the damage half, you're right that the die roll is lower than other damage over time spells like Sickening Radiance (4d10) or Spirit Guardians (3d8, or 4d8 if upcast to 4th). However, EBT's damage has a subtle advantage that makes it a little better than it looks: once a creature has failed their save the damage is automatic, no save to half/avoid, until they free themselves. But what really makes EBT unique and justifies the level is that it's a self-contained combo. Web needs a source of damage or it only does control. Sickening Radiance needs movement restriction or it's just an incentive to leave an area--EBT doesn't need a second caster to combo with (although you're right that adding HoH is thematic and awesome), and that's a lot of the strength of the spell.


There's a potential extra bonus for Evard's: while escaping gives the option of Strength or Dexterity (bad for caster), it uses a check and not a saving throw (good for caster; less likely to be boosted beyond the base stats).

[tiornys]

There's a potential extra bonus for Evard's: while escaping gives the option of Strength or Dexterity (bad for caster), it uses a check and not a saving throw (good for caster; less likely to be boosted beyond the base stats).
True, but escaping Web or Entangle is also a check, and both only allow a Strength check, so this is a slight weakness of EBT vs. those spells.

[tokek]

This one doesn't actually work, per RAW. Both Elemental Weapon and Magic Weapon specifically target non-magical weapons and make the targeted weapon magical. As soon as one spell is cast, the targeted weapon becomes magical and is therefore not an eligible target for the other spell.

It does if you cast Elemental Weapon first. Holy Weapon does not care if the weapon it is cast on is magical or not. That is why you need Holy Weapon not Magic Weapon for the combo.

[TheCleverGuy]

I think it works if you cast elemental weapon on a non magical weapon. Holy weapon doesn’t need to start with a nonmagical weapon.


It does if you cast Elemental Weapon first. Holy Weapon does not care if the weapon it is cast on is magical or not. That is why you need Holy Weapon not Magic Weapon for the combo.

You are both right! I somehow misread the post as saying Magic instead of Holy. My bad!

[herrhauptmann]

Do Booming Blade and Shadow Blade work together?

I saw them mentioned in some guides as being the go-tos for certain characters, but I'm not sure if they're using a conjured Shadow Blade to hit someone with a Booming Blade.

Edit. This character was the first I saw, but it's been in a few others.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24681222&postcount=523

[ender241]

Do Booming Blade and Shadow Blade work together?

I saw them mentioned in some guides as being the go-tos for certain characters, but I'm not sure if they're using a conjured Shadow Blade to hit someone with a Booming Blade.

Technically not after BB (and GFB) were updated to say that the weapon used must have a value of at least 1 sp. But JC has said on Twitter that the change was not intended to break that combo and that he would allow it at his table, for what it's worth. But his tweets are not official rulings, so it's going to be up to your DM.

[herrhauptmann]

What is GFB?

Greater Furnace Brood? ;) (I hate being a newbie this far behind the curve.)

[KorvinStarmast]

What is GFB?

Greater Furnace Brood? ;) (I hate being a newbie this far behind the curve.)
Green Flame Blade. A cantrip introduced in the supplement "Sword Coast Adventurers Guide"
(Slightly modified in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything)

[Psyren]

What is GFB?

Greater Furnace Brood? ;) (I hate being a newbie this far behind the curve.)

Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade are cantrips that involve attacking with a weapon. That gets you the character-level-scaling goodness of a cantrip combined with features that key off weapon attacks like Great Weapon Master.

Often they are not better than attacking multiple times with your action, but if you can't do that for some reason (e.g. opportunity attack + War Caster) they usually beat attacking once.

[RogueJK]

Booming Blade + Dissonant Whispers. This can either be hitting them with a BB before DW is cast, or a character with Warcaster hitting them with a BB when their movement from DW triggers an OA.

No, BB's rider damage isn't triggered from the forced movement of the DW spell.

However, now on their turn they're 30' away, and have a choice between sitting still and wasting another round, or sucking up the BB damage and moving back into combat.

Handy for melee-only enemies.

[LudicSavant]

Do Booming Blade and Shadow Blade work together?

I saw them mentioned in some guides as being the go-tos for certain characters, but I'm not sure if they're using a conjured Shadow Blade to hit someone with a Booming Blade.

Edit. This character was the first I saw, but it's been in a few others.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24681222&postcount=523

So my build there was written before Booming Blade was changed in an errata. Back then, the answer was very unambiguously "yes, it works." Nowadays (after the errata) the answer is "the devs tell us it's supposed to still work, but their rules writing is more vague than it should be so people argue about it on forums."

Said errata was intended (per word of the designers) to clarify that you could not just materialize a free weapon out of a spell component pouch in the same manner as you could a pinch of bat guano. A clarification that was required by no one... and the sloppy way they wrote said clarification introduced a whole bunch more confusion and ambiguity. Whoops!

The new wording (again, written well after I posted my build) is that you need to have "a melee weapon worth at least 1 sp." The ambiguity comes in when people ask about weapons that have a value of "undefined." Some people leap to the assumption that "undefined = 0," while others point out that it could just as easily be the other way, with various reasons why (like how much it costs to hire someone to cast a spell in the PHB, or how much they'd be willing to pay for a Shadow Blade, or the like).

For what it's worth Jeremy Crawford is in the latter camp. He has said that Shadow Blade is intended to work with Booming Blade, why he thinks it still works with the current wording, and that he'd allow it in his games.

[sambojin]

As mentioned above, the Spike Growth + Plant Growth combo, but how are you going to prone them? Tidal Wave.

It's really targetable, causes a bit more damage, and is an instant (it's nice when you can slowly combo off from one character's spell list). You can also use TW to air-prone flyers into a previously prepared plant/ spike growth area, so even 80' speed flyers will only be able to move 5' back up (40'/half move to stand back up, difficult terrain, 1/4 PG movement), which at least wastes their turn.

Turn 1: Plant Growth
Turn 2: Spike Growth
Turn 3: begin Tidal Waving
(Plus whatever other bonus action wildshape stuff you can do while you're slowly comboing off. Wildfire or Stars druids work well for instance)

A lot nicer when you've got a Warlock with repelling blast in the party, because you'll find things actually can't move enough to do much damage to themselves from Spike Growth if you keep knocking them prone with Tidal Waves. Having multiple Druids in a party is never a bad thing.

(Sleet Storm then Tidal Waves is another fun combo. Heavily obscured/no vision, difficult terrain, concentration saves, and continuous proning from both spells. Great against shooters and casters, especially in combination with a nice damage over time spell from another caster. Annoying for melee enemies as well, there's nothing worse than constantly being proned. A bit slot heavy, but by lvl9 you'll be taking on 1-3 encounters with just one spell, so you can afford to have a bit of fun as a Druid)

[LudicSavant]

Necromancer + Animate Dead + Danse Macabre

Seems like a simple one, but I find that Danse Macabre is one of those spells that people often overlook or underestimate because they evaluate it in context of some hypothetical subclassless Wizard, rather than a character who really synergizes with it.

So let me paint you a picture (one that actually happened recently in a real game, in fact). The Deadly+ team of enemies unleashes 16d10+5d8 AoE damage (and a wall effect to boot) on the mid-level party, in one turn. Their minions are wiped out, the party's hurting, but the Necromancer Wizard survives because Absorb Elements.

Here the DM is wondering if maybe he went overboard on the AoE, but the Necromancer player just has a big "you activated my trap card" grin on his face. He casts Danse Macabre, and here's the thing about that.

It not only revives the skeletons, but gives them a bonus to hit and damage, that stacks with the Necromancer's Undead Thralls bonus. Which, it turns out, makes this level 5 spell's DPR hit considerably harder than Animate Objects. And unlike Animate Objects, it lasts for 1 hour, not 1 minute. And has weapon-using, ranged-capable minions. So the Necromancer not only wiped up the current encounter, but the next one, too. It also is extra fun, because of that "you activated my trap card" turnabout aspect. :smallsmile:

___

Speaking of Necromancer synergies, here's a few more.
1) Grim Harvest synergizes well enough with stuff like Fire Shield that when a Druid thinks they're clever and summons 30 velociraptors at you, they can all die without getting your hit points any lower than when they started. Why? Because Grim Harvest can activate once per turn, not per spell or per round. Also works with things like Armor of Agathys (for you Warding Dwarves or Hexblade-dippers out there).
2) Grim Harvest synergizes well with anything that does its damage "at the beginning of an enemy's turn" or "when entering for the first time on a turn" or "when you end your turn there." Or anything else that can activate off turn. Grab an AoE like this, kill a crowd of mooks, and watch your health go from low to full. But people keep underestimating Grim Harvest because they keep looking to use it with Necromancy spells. No! Use it with spells that hit multiple times off-turn! Geez, if people thought about Diviner in such a limited way, they'd be trying to use Portent with Mind Spike (a Divination spell) instead of using Portent with Banish (not a Divination spell). :smalltongue:
3) What's more, those hazard spells that work so well with Grim Harvest? You can trap enemies in them by blocking their escape routes with minions (or even having minions grapple them). Your minions can even stand inside some AoEs, due to their elemental immunities.
4) Create Homunculus becomes super-good because it can't lower your max HP with Inured to Undeath.
5) Undead Thralls buffs the Summon Undead spell from Tasha's Cauldron of everything, and makes it do very high single target damage... while still having that incorporeal summon apply a fear effect on every single attack.
6) Crusader's Mantle (castable by a Paladin or War Cleric) has no limit on the number of creatures it affects and thus is very strong in a party that uses minions (or just has a high number of attacks in general).
7) At level 20, the Wizard's capstone allows them to cast Animate Dead on a short rest schedule, which allows you to make an altogether too large, army altogether too fast.
8) Your minions can toss things like Dragon's Breath and Otiluke's Freezing Sphere with their own actions... and of course these things trigger Grim Harvest. Dragon's Breath also isn't a terrible Spell Mastery choice.

[Segev]

But people keep underestimating Grim Harvest because they keep looking to use it with Necromancy spells

While I definitely appreciate the advice on how to use it effectively, I don't underestimate it so much as feel it's misplaced as the first thing a necromancer gets to make him feel like a necromancer. While trying to flavor it might be tricky, it feels like something you'd more want on a gosh-darned Evoker. "I am really durable" isn't exactly saying, "I am a necromancer," the way, "I can make my allies do better and my enemies do worse by messing with fate and probability" says "Diviner." At least "see the future, mess with fate" is a close relation thing.

Yes, the fluff of Grim Harvest is, "You're siphoning life through spells that you use to kill," but the net playstyle result feels more like something you want on a gish than on a wizard, let alone a wizard who's ultimate goal is minion-command.

That is why I dislike Grim Harvest: it doesn't make me feel like I'm playing a necromancer, and it doesn't encourage a playstyle that feels particularly necromancy-focused. You say it, yourself, in fact: best to focus on control/damage spells that persist. It's not even a utility trick like some subclasses get that give you a toy to tide you over. (Admittedly, despite my love for their level 6 feature, Illusionists wind up almost as bad off, but at least they get an extra cantrip out of the deal, and it's guaranteed they have a cantrip that makes them live a part of their fantasy.)

[Kane0]

Would that be helped if there were better Necromancy damage spells?

[JellyPooga]

Would that be helped if there were better Necromancy damage spells?

It'd help if Necromancy damage spells felt like necromancy; less instantaneous effects and more slow, withering, painful, crippling, curses, etc.

[Kane0]

Dont want to toot my own horn, but how about these? Totally homebrew of course.


Irradiate
1st-Level Evocation or Necromancy
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 60 feet
Components: None
Duration: Instantaneous

Select a point you can see within range. A 5 foot radius around this point is bathed in green light which kills off all nonmagical plant life. Creatures caught within the area take 1d4 Radiant and 1d4 Necrotic damage, or half if they succeed on a Constitution Saving Throw against your Spell DC. The area this spell effects is effectively salted and remains barren for up to one year.
At higher levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the radius increases by 5 feet for every slot level above 1st.

Putrid Haze
1st-Level Transmutation or Necromancy
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 120 feet
Components: None
Duration: Concentration, up to one minute

You target one corpse you can see within range. The target corpse decomposes, spilling forth a toxic vapor in a 10 foot radius. Any creature that starts its turn within this area takes 1d10 poison damage, or half if they succeed on a Constitution saving throw against your spell DC. Creatures that fail their saving throw are also poisoned until the end of their next turn.
If the spell affects the target corpse for the full duration the corpse is fully decomposed when the spell ends. A moderate or stronger wind disperses the vapor and ends the spell.
At higher levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d10 for every slot level above 1st.

Desecrate
2nd-level Necromancy (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: S, M
Duration: 8 Hours
You introduce a field of negative energy to an area 30 feet around you. For the duration of the spell any undead creatures within the area have advantage on their saving throws if subject to a Turn Undead ability. Additionally, any Undead creature created within the area gain +1 to all attack and damage rolls and have an additional 3 HP.
If an area is subject to a Desecrate spell each day for an entire year the duration becomes permanent.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the additional HP of undead created increases by 3 for each slot level above 2nd.

Ray of Exhaustion
3rd Level Necromancy
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 120 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous

Make a ranged spell attack against one creature you can see within range. On a hit, the target takes 6d6 necrotic damage and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or gain one level of exhaustion.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot above 3rd.


And of course make some improvements to existing spells like Ray of Enfeeblement, Vampiric Touch, Blight, Enervation and Circle of Death

[LudicSavant]

*snip*

Would that be helped if there were better Necromancy damage spells?

It'd help if Necromancy damage spells felt like necromancy; less instantaneous effects and more slow, withering, painful, crippling, curses, etc.

It's not only about whether the damage spells are good or not, but the particular way they work.

Grim Harvest loves spells that finish people off. Preferably multiple people, on separate turns from each other. For example, Grim Harvest prefers an AoE spell that does its damage at the start of an enemy's turn, rather than to everyone right when you cast it. Fireball's a great spell, but it's only ever gonna heal 2xSL HP for Grim Harvest. Whereas watching people melt in a Sickening Radiance can heal you to full.

So, even if Wither and Bloom is an alright spell, it's not especially Grim Harvest-y. It would at most give you 3x HP back (instead of repeated procs), and that's only if it finishes someone off. And as a hybrid healing spell, it's less likely to do that than a pure offense spell. Same goes for things like, say, Ray of Sickness. That's not just a damage spell, it's supposed to cripple someone. Why cripple someone if you expect them to be dead right now?

Even if you made those spells stronger, those same principles would apply.

Anyways, the main mistake people make when thinking about how to use Grim Harvest is they get distracted by the "Necromancy spells heal 3x, other spells heal 2x" line. When what they should be paying attention to is "once per turn." What's that, your long-lasting non-Necromancy spell killed 2 different people on 2 different turns? Then that's already 4x, which is better than 3x. And it just goes up and up from there.

____

If they wanted to give Grim Harvest a different ludonarrative feel, one option would be to make it more like "if you damage a person with a spell, you can give some healing or temp HP to yourself or someone in your party by siphoning some life energy. You can do this only once per spell." Or possibly make it work a bit more like Wither and Bloom. Either way, this would make it more suitable for a diverse range of spells, including ones that are more like the crippling debuffs KaneO might want. It also would let you feel more like you're directing the life and death of your allies, rather than necessarily tanking yourself. But that ludonarrative design discussion is kinda getting away from the subject of the thread.

[Aalbatr0ss]

My wife is relatively new and figuring out how to play a L8 evocation wizard as more than a simple blaster/AOE spammer. In recent fight her character had a high dex assassin coming after her while their party was also fighting multiple trolls. She used a couple dex save spells on him with little effect.

So she got the assassin in watery sphere (STR save), giving them disadvantage on DEX saves. Then started firing lightning bolts through the sphere, positioning to get the assassin + multiple trolls with each shot. The assassin never hit her after this and she was getting like ~80 DPR.

This wasn’t exactly “optimized” but it was effective and it was really fun watching her figure it out.

[Catullus64]

Gotta love the Poor Man's Major Image.

Step 1: Be hidden from the creatures you intend to fool with the spell, ideally at a distance where they won't hear verbal components from spells.

Step 2: Cast Minor Illusion, using it to create sound, specifically the ambient movement noises of the creature or effect of which you want to create an illusion.

Step 3: Cast Silent Image to create the creature or effect. Ideally create it out of sight of the creatures, and then use your actions to have it move organically into view.

Step 4: In time with the motion of the Silent Image, use the still-active Minor Illusion to continue making movement sounds, as the spell description says you can do with no action requirement, while using your actions to manipulate the image itself. Outside of smell and thermal effects, you have now successfully duplicated a 3rd-level spell using only a cantrip and a 1st-level spell, and one that can be cast at-will with the right feature selection.

[sambojin]

Do Summon X spells and Animate Dead count as damaging a creature with a spell? It's not great, but at least you can be blasting on your turn and killing on the summon's turn for the 4x effect from GH.

Conjure Animals night not be too bad for all the AoO it offers if Grim Harvest works with summons. Then it's on the enemy's turn as well.


Mentioned this one in another thread and it got poo-pooed, but a flying Summon Beast with a familiar riding and doing help actions for it is pretty useful. Can grapple and fly and splat anything up to medium sized, it has 18Str so can lift plenty of things, and a +4 check with advantage isn't too bad for grappling. Halves it to 30' flying the moment it grapples something, but it can dash for 60' flight/ +6d6 drop damage every second turn, plus maybe a bit more from the original lift. And fall damage isn't resisted, as per Sage Advice, even though it's not magical. Not bad for a lvl2 spell and a ritual (or wildshape charge). It can do a bit of normal combat as well.

(It can also fly with you grappled, making it 1hr long fly spell, which is nice. Spellcasting isn't really affected by being grappled either, for some reason. Especially friendly grapples. Maybe your familiar can also offset any disadvantage the DM imposes on you for flying this way (it only has 20HP, that is plenty of disadvantage right there. It's not only enemies that can be splatted), should you do it for a melee buddy or something. Maybe throw Longstrider on it for optimum splatting or flying)

[Segev]

For me, I just think "you damage creatures, so you siphon life force and heal" should have been the level 10 "somewhat off the beaten path" ability that the subclass gets. I don't know how you'd make that more powerful to balance things out, or even if you would, but its big sin is that Grim Harvest doesn't cause you to play in a way that feels necromantic. Necromancy may have damage effects in its bailiwick, but if your feature tells you, "focus on inflicting damage to kill things," doesn't that sound more like your generic blast-mage? Or, as Ludic points out, a control-and-damage mage?

Grim Harvest is just not the right choice for even the KIND of ability that a Necromancer should get as his intro feature. A Necromancer's starting feature should encourage him to engage with corpses or undead or both. Not with "killing things," but with the actual corpses left behind. Or some ability that encourages the Necromancer to engage with the undead in ways that others dare not, perhaps by providing some safety from attack. A sanctuary spell-like effect that only applies to undead, for instance.

I understand the leeriness 5e feels towards minionmancy, especially at low level, so giving them some means of animating or controlling undead at level 2 is probably never going to happen, but the feature there should still make working with corpses or undead more viable, and desirable as a play style shaping ... thing.

In much the way that Grim Harvest right now makes you more want to play like a blast mage.

[LudicSavant]

My wife is relatively new and figuring out how to play a L8 evocation wizard as more than a simple blaster/AOE spammer.

That's a good topic!

First thing I usually point out to people is that the Evocation school is not just about damage, but control.

Sculpt Spells, for example, can do all of the following and more:

- Create an area of Sickening Radiance that your allies can stand in. Not only does this mean that short range foes who want to engage basically have to eat ongoing damage and Exhaustion to do it, it also makes it a lot harder for anyone to escape the area of effect since allies can surround them in the area and threaten OAs and such.

Sickening Radiance isn't the only spell this works for. Storm Sphere, Dawn, Maddening Darkness, etc have their own advantages.

- Wall of Stone grants those who would be fully enclosed by the area a saving throw. Those who succeed on the saving throw get off-turn movement. Sculpt Spells lets people you like automatically succeed on the saving throw... so you get to simultaneously cast a powerful wall spell and give your allies an off-turn move at the same time.

- Wall of Ice is a multi-purpose hybrid spell. First it does damage comparable to a 5th level Fireball, then it creates an opaque wall, then if the wall's broken it creates a hazard (which is exploitable in all the usual ways that hazards are). Which, of course, your allies can walk through unharmed thanks to Sculpt Spells. So if the enemy walks through to get to the other side, you can just swap sides.

- And then of course there's the obvious one: You can adopt much more aggressive and controlling formations for your party without fear of friendly fire when you drop the Fireballs, Rime's Binding Ice, or the like. It really lets you start to appreciate extra large AoEs like Cone of Cold or Sunburst, without fear of hitting allies. And positioning is king.

[Aalbatr0ss]

That's a good topic!

First thing I usually point out to people is that the Evocation school is not just about damage, but control.

Sculpt Spells, for example, can do all of the following and more:

- Create an area of Sickening Radiance that your allies can stand in. Not only does this mean that short range foes who want to engage basically have to eat ongoing damage and Exhaustion to do it, it also makes it a lot harder for anyone to escape the area of effect since allies can surround them in the area and threaten OAs and such.

Sickening Radiance isn't the only spell this works for. Storm Sphere, Dawn, Maddening Darkness, etc have their own advantages.

- Wall of Stone grants those who would be fully enclosed by the area a saving throw. Those who succeed on the saving throw get off-turn movement. Sculpt Spells lets people you like automatically succeed on the saving throw... so you get to simultaneously cast a powerful wall spell and give your allies an off-turn move at the same time.

- Wall of Ice is a multi-purpose hybrid spell. First it does damage comparable to a 5th level Fireball, then it creates an opaque wall, then if the wall's broken it creates a hazard (which is exploitable in all the usual ways that hazards are). Which, of course, your allies can walk through unharmed thanks to Sculpt Spells. So if the enemy walks through to get to the other side, you can just swap sides.

- And then of course there's the obvious one: You can adopt much more aggressive and controlling formations for your party without fear of friendly fire when you drop the Fireballs, Rime's Binding Ice, or the like. It really lets you start to appreciate extra large AoEs like Cone of Cold or Sunburst, without fear of hitting allies. And positioning is king.

I'll be honest, I hadn't thought of most of these applications! I'm DMing this game and her character has a mentor who is a senior evocation wizard. I should introduce some of these concepts in a 'training session' fight.
Sculpt spells and wall spells... That really opens up the evoker as tactician.
Thanks!

[Sorinth]

For me, I just think "you damage creatures, so you siphon life force and heal" should have been the level 10 "somewhat off the beaten path" ability that the subclass gets. I don't know how you'd make that more powerful to balance things out, or even if you would, but its big sin is that Grim Harvest doesn't cause you to play in a way that feels necromantic. Necromancy may have damage effects in its bailiwick, but if your feature tells you, "focus on inflicting damage to kill things," doesn't that sound more like your generic blast-mage? Or, as Ludic points out, a control-and-damage mage?

Grim Harvest is just not the right choice for even the KIND of ability that a Necromancer should get as his intro feature. A Necromancer's starting feature should encourage him to engage with corpses or undead or both. Not with "killing things," but with the actual corpses left behind. Or some ability that encourages the Necromancer to engage with the undead in ways that others dare not, perhaps by providing some safety from attack. A sanctuary spell-like effect that only applies to undead, for instance.

I understand the leeriness 5e feels towards minionmancy, especially at low level, so giving them some means of animating or controlling undead at level 2 is probably never going to happen, but the feature there should still make working with corpses or undead more viable, and desirable as a play style shaping ... thing.

In much the way that Grim Harvest right now makes you more want to play like a blast mage.

There are ways to do minionmancy even at low levels without breaking things, it's all about having a cost (Concentration or Action) and limited duration. For example replace Grim Harvest with animated prof number of zombies (Maybe some HP formula based on level/prof bonus) but have to spend your action each round to keep them animated (Give orders as Free Action). Yeah you've created minions but the cost of spending your action every round to keep them animated means action economy probably isn't broken and at best they last until you short rest so there's no amassing an army.

EDIT: And if WotC wants to go blaster necromancer at least give us some sort of Corpse Explosion.

[LudicSavant]

I'll be honest, I hadn't thought of most of these applications! I'm DMing this game and her character has a mentor who is a senior evocation wizard. I should introduce some of these concepts in a 'training session' fight.
Sculpt spells and wall spells... That really opens up the evoker as tactician.
Thanks!

That sounds like a fun scenario! :smallbiggrin:

[solidork]

One that I think is particularly mean is Watery Sphere + Hideous Laughter. Like, you're very much off the map when it comes to adjudicating what happens if you're laughing uncontrollably while underwater but I don't think it's gonna be good for your health.

[Kane0]

One that I think is particularly mean is Watery Sphere + Hideous Laughter. Like, you're very much off the map when it comes to adjudicating what happens if you're laughing uncontrollably while underwater but I don't think it's gonna be good for your health.

Had something come up a while back with someone casting Sleep to the same effect.

[Melphizard]

Haven't seen this mentioned but Wall of Force (or Forcecage if you're able) + Any concentration AOE = Blender. Personal experience with this combo has been with my Kobold Wizard holding action to cast wall of force for after my Sorcerer friend cast wall of fire. Least to say the oven was set at 800° Celsius and the stone giants we trapped inside were not a threat after that spell combo. Different methods are applicable such as Sickening Radiance + Wall of Force to stack exhaustion or Wall of Force (sphere) + Watery Sphere to drown your foes.

[Kane0]

You can also do something similar with lower level slots using something like spiritual weapon or cloud of daggers with an olitukes resilient sphere, if your DM is nice enough to allow the creature to be trapped inside with it.

[LudicSavant]

Here's another spell that gets underestimated: Gate.

People from 3.5e are used to thinking of this spell in terms of summoning an ally to fight for you... so all too often, they don't even consider the fact that it can be cast on your enemy.

If you know someone's name, you can kidnap them to whatever pre-prepared deathtrap location you want. From across the multiverse. No willingness required. No save. It's like ye olde Scry and Die but worse, because you have the home field advantage.



Haven't seen this mentioned but Wall of Force (or Forcecage if you're able) + Any concentration AOE = Blender.

You can also use a non-Concentration option for your blender, like Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound.

Yet another thing that can combo with Wall of Force is vision blockers. For example, up against a foe with sight-based Teleportation (e.g. Misty Step), I recently used Wall of Force + Pyrotechnics.

[Bardon]

Here's another spell that gets underestimated: Gate.

People from 3.5e are used to thinking of this spell in terms of summoning an ally to fight for you... so all too often, they don't even consider the fact that it can be cast on your enemy.

If you know someone's name, you can kidnap them to whatever pre-prepared deathtrap location you want. From across the multiverse. No willingness required. No save. It's like ye olde Scry and Die but worse, because you have the home field advantage.




You can also use a non-Concentration option for your blender, like Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound.

Yet another thing that can combo with Wall of Force is vision blockers. For example, up against a foe with sight-based Teleportation (e.g. Misty Step), I recently used Wall of Force + Pyrotechnics.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the save-less Summons power of Gate only works if they're on a different plane than you are, yes? Just wanted to make sure I've got this right.

[LudicSavant]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the save-less Summons power of Gate only works if they're on a different plane than you are, yes? Just wanted to make sure I've got this right.

Yep, that's right.

[tokek]

Not purely a spell combo but I quite this one against enemy casters:

Hit a target with Momentary Stasis. Its a Con save so ideally you hit something that won't have a great Con save. Its not a spell so no counterspell options. You have Chronal Shift as an option to try to force them to fail the save, again that's not a spell so no counterspell play against it.

Next turn Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. They auto-fail a dex save while in Stasis and they have no reaction to block this in any way.

If they don't have a teleport spell prepared that's them out of the fight until you have cleaned up everything else. If they do they have a way to get out. The counter for that is to have someone cast Fog Cloud, Darkness or use an Eversmoking bottle or similar - if they cannot see out they cannot teleport out short of significantly higher level spells.

[CapnWildefyr]

Blade barrier + reverse gravity. blend + slam + blend + slam in 1 round, assuming there's a ceiling.

Rock -> mud + otiluke's freezing sphere (if your DM allows the mud to freeze, that is). A bit expensive, though, in terms of spell slots, compared to what you get with it.

And if you're trying to cheat at cards, you don't need spells, just a familiar that no one will notice, hanging around behind the other players...

[Segev]

...a familiar that no one will notice, hanging around behind the other players...

Spiders are really good for this. There's no lower limit to the size of a Tiny creature, so you can get an innocuous house-spider as your familiar....

[diplomancer]

Blade barrier + reverse gravity. blend + slam + blend + slam in 1 round, assuming there's a ceiling.

Rock -> mud + otiluke's freezing sphere (if your DM allows the mud to freeze, that is). A bit expensive, though, in terms of spell slots, compared to what you get with it.

And if you're trying to cheat at cards, you don't need spells, just a familiar that no one will notice, hanging around behind the other players...

If you are using the Familiar's senses, other players might notice you're blind to your own surroundings. The familiar can't really tell you what it sees telepathically, as it can't read, or count. Unless it's an invisible Pact of the Chain familiar.

[Segev]

If you are using the Familiar's senses, other players might notice you're blind to your own surroundings. The familiar can't really tell you what it sees telepathically, as it can't read, or count. Unless it's an invisible Pact of the Chain familiar.

To be fair, you can do this one round at a time. If you're "staring intently at your own cards" while, for about six seconds, you're actually looking over the shoulders of one or more opponents through your spider's eyes, how could they tell? Might be worth an Insight vs. Deception or Sleight of Hand check, but it certainly isn't a gimme.

[diplomancer]

Might be worth an Insight vs. Deception or Sleight of Hand check, but it certainly isn't a gimme.

Which is why I said "other players might notice". Though I'd say that over the course of a long game, a good player WILL notice. And in a world where familiars are known to exist, they might deduce what's going on.

[CapnWildefyr]

To be fair, you can do this one round at a time. If you're "staring intently at your own cards" while, for about six seconds, you're actually looking over the shoulders of one or more opponents through your spider's eyes, how could they tell? Might be worth an Insight vs. Deception or Sleight of Hand check, but it certainly isn't a gimme.

That's what I was thinking. And just because you are not aware of your own body doesn't mean you can't sit back in your chair (as in, you're already in it), scratch your nose, sniffle, etc. Just don't do anything that requires personal sight. My only question would be: do I get vertigo by looking through a spider's 8 eyes? :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

That's what I was thinking. And just because you are not aware of your own body doesn't mean you can't sit back in your chair (as in, you're already in it), scratch your nose, sniffle, etc. Just don't do anything that requires personal sight. My only question would be: do I get vertigo by looking through a spider's 8 eyes? :smallbiggrin:

I was thinking the same question as I wrote the example, and I could see a DM asking you for a roll or something, but to be fair, the RAW say you can use their senses, and you'd expect 5e to tell you if that came with complications.

[LordShade]

EDIT: And if WotC wants to go blaster necromancer at least give us some sort of Corpse Explosion.

I'm probably going to let the PC necromancer in my Eberron game animate Distended Corpses at some point. They won't disgorge snakes, but do 2d6 necrotic damage when killed or something.

Another PC is playing a pyromaniac artificer, and they are already plotting how to load up zombies with oil-soaked rags and other volatiles cooked up by the alchemist.