Help for low level Support Cleric build! (3.5)

[Ursinorum]

Hi all!

I was always the ineffective healbot as a kid and never even knew that there were better options..

I'm about to start in a 3 lvl homebrew campaign, maybe introduced when the party hits 4th (not sure yet), we have Paladin, Fighter and TrueNecro, but the DM is out trying to recruit a couple more players.

Due to the canon of the homebrew, I really want to play a Strongheart Halfling Cleric (not optimized here, I know..)

24 point buy that I was thinking of distributing thusly (not set in stone):

S:6
D:10
C:10
I:10
W:16
Ch:16

As an halfling there's not much point in investing in combat stats (the party already has a paladin and a fighter). Also, this is to use Divine Metamagic which I read is essential (as kids we stopped playing before complete Divine came out) but I'm not super sure if at this low level I should invest in Permanent, Quickened or Reach (for remote healing as I'll try to stay away from melee)

How do you suggest I use the feat associated with DivineMeta. with buffing spells?

If you have ideas for builds that don't require DM, what 3 feats do you recommend? I kinda like the idea of summoning lots, but not if buffing/supporting the party is better (Also, the true Necro already has a couple of thralls at the moment, so he probably has summoning covered)

Is light crossbow the best possible weapon for me?

Any spell tips are welcome, the only one I'm sure is not to invest in heal wounds..

Probably gonna invest in a riding dog, not sure if it's relevant

Cheers!

[Anthrowhale]

I think you are only use a 24 point buy? More constitution is pretty welcome.

If you take Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM[Persistent Spell], then you can persist a party buff like Elation immediately and at 5th level you'll be able to persist Mass Lesser Vigor. Furthermore, you may be able to buy a lesser rod of extend spell so you can keep two persistent buffs up at a time.

Edit: a few other thoughts.

You might look into the spell Close Wounds which allows you to heal at range as an immediate action.

I'd be tempted to reduce the charisma by 2 points to increase Dex & Con by 6 points. You'll still need either Eagle's Splender or a Reliquary Holy Symbol (1k gp) to get off a persistent spell per day and the extra initiative/AC/hit points/saves are good.

Alternatively, you could go for 2 persistent spells/day at the start via Cha 16(3)+Cleric(3)+Reliquary holy symbol(2)+Eagle's Splender(2)+Undeath Domain[Extra Turning](4).

The 3rd level spell Darkfire is decent for offense in many situations, particularly if you persist it with a lesser rod of maximize spell. You'll want a feat like Searing Spell if you go that route. Eventually, you'll add the level 7 Holy Star spell.

[Fizban]

I'm about to start in a 3 lvl homebrew campaign, maybe introduced when the party hits 4th (not sure yet), we have Paladin, Fighter and TrueNecro, but the DM is out trying to recruit a couple more players.
How much minionmancy is this game using? Also True Necro is a Theurge, so you've got significantly reduced arcane offense and will have some doubled up divine stuff, this is going to be a buff 'n bash party.

Due to the canon of the homebrew, I really want to play a Strongheart Halfling Cleric (not optimized here, I know..)
Oh just merely +2 AC and a bonus feat, not optimized at all :smallsigh:

24 point buy that I was thinking of distributing thusly (not set in stone):
A, dare I say, standard amount of point buy? Shocking.

Also, this is to use Divine Metamagic which I read is essential (as kids we stopped playing before complete Divine came out)
It's not. You read from other posters, or you read with your own skill?

but I'm not super sure if at this low level I should invest in Permanent, Quickened or Reach (for remote healing as I'll try to stay away from melee)
Persistant is mostly for trying to pretend you're a Fighter (you aren't), and you have two full BAB classes in the party plus probably minions. If you want convenient ranged healing/buffs (that also happens to be powered by Turn Undead uses because reasons) then Divine Ward from PHB2 is better. Quicken sounds great except if you're dumping combat stats, what else are you doing with those actions? You barely have any slots.


How do you suggest I use the feat associated with DivineMeta. with buffing spells?
This brings me to the common, and baffling question: If you don't know what you're supposed to do with it, why are you so convinced it's "essential?" You said you haven't played since Complete Divine came out, which means the decade+ of forum char-op probably does not apply to the state of your game.


If you have ideas for builds that don't require DM, what 3 feats do you recommend? I kinda like the idea of summoning lots, but not if buffing/supporting the party is better (Also, the true Necro already has a couple of thralls at the moment, so he probably has summoning covered)
As you have recognized, this party is already stuffed on minions and combat bodies, you don't need to summon more.

Augment Healing and Divine Ward are practically all you need. Add Imbued Healing [Healing domain] (Complete Champion) for the third feat of the basic healing build. Your DM might find that a little annoyingly too much, or it might work out fine that you're keeping the PCs up if the DM can smack down the minions.


Is light crossbow the best possible weapon for me?
It's not the best weapon- it's the standard ranged weapon that you should have. You should also have a melee weapon.


Any spell tips are welcome, the only one I'm sure is not to invest in heal wounds..
I think you're trying to say that you "know" you shouldn't bother with healing spells, which is again applying forum-think that I'd bet does not actually apply to your game. Any group that actually has combat where hit point damage is taken needs to heal, but even if char-op says it should only ever happen out of combat, if you press them on the subject they'll admit that emergency healing to prevent character death is important (because the death penalties in 3.5 are enormous), and hey guess what happens if you heal someone *before* they're at death's door? You don't get screwed by being unable to reach them at the last possible second.

Basic cure spells can in fact keep up with basic MM monster damage. Optimized cure spells can exceed that. Highly optimized healing builds using questionable readings can do even more. No one can really say with a straight face a high level character who casts heal over and over, preventing the enemy from landing any serious status effects or building up hit point damage, is not contributing.

The problem is the blatant assumption that by healing, a "heal-bot" is ignoring all the other spells. Because if you're dumb enough to heal, you're too dumb to read any other spells, I guess? And the secondary problem that many aggro-focused groups have combat characters dumping AC, so they lose hit points far faster than they should, burning through more healing spells. You cannot play traditional defensive tactics if half the group is dumping all defenses and running straight at their enemies trying to invent rocket tag as early as possible, sure. This is not the Cleric's problem, though they do have to adjust their own playstyle accordingly- which is a problem, because the Cleric is meant to support the defensive playstyle.

Play a Cleric. Learn your spells, learn how to use them. Boost AC, add resistances and immunities, heal when it makes sense, do other things when they make sense. Don't let a bunch of randos on the internet convince you to follow a different set of rules like you're a robot.


Probably gonna invest in a riding dog, not sure if it's relevant
Mounts are useful, riding dogs are a non-trivial combatant at this level, but again, char-op makes way too much fuss over them.

[MicHag]

DMM is probably the best way to play a cleric, but is also frowned upon in most groups.
It all depends on the power level you want to play at and what exactly you are going to do with your DMM.

Seeing as there is a Fighter and Paladin, the group is probably unoptimized, thus i would advice against using DMM or at the very least against abusing DMM.

[Anthrowhale]

Seeing as there is a Fighter and Paladin, the group is probably unoptimized, thus i would advice against using DMM or at the very least against abusing DMM.

I expect sticking to party buffs for persistent spell is ok, at least at low-to-moderate levels. It alters the monster v. party balance somewhat, but not the player v player balance which is where things tend to go wrong.

[Seward]

At level 3, a persistent Bull Strength for each fighter (if you can manage 2) wouldn't be terrible. It would however use up both of your L2 slots. You would need to consider what else you are going to do in combat.

Maybe you just invest WBL in scrolls and a wand of CLW and contribute that way, with an occasional L1 spell. But as you are built as a caster, not a fighter, it'll be a while before you can do without consumables and have a meaningful action in combat. Right now you are also as squishy as a wizard (no con bonus, and no strength to carry armor). So even aid-another and flanking is probably too risky a combat action.

I honestly am not the fan of DMM that a lot of folks are, DMM persist is a 3 feat (or two feat+domain choice) trick and for a class with no bonus feats, that's a pretty big feat tax to get a couple spells with free metamagic/day.

You've got a good turning stat and a good casting stat - there are other fish in the sea given 3 feats to work with for a medic/support type cleric. It is actually possible to optimize healing enough that it can keep up with incoming damage pretty well etc, but your approach isn't terrible, if you give those persistent spells to somebody other than yourself. You'll want to see what that should be in future levels once bull strength is replaced by items, but I'm sure something decent is available, or it might be tuned to the situation (persistent deathward on a paladin when entering an undead-fest for example).

At minimum, you are a rare cleric whose domain SLAs (which use cha for DC) will have same punch as a regular spell. So even if you stick with DMM persist, you might consider something like Community domain which gives Calm Emotions as a SLA (so that's one combat you have a decent contribution to...calm emotions is a strong low level debuff that takes you out of the fight too while concentrating, but it is a game changer in low levels, with good range and area) as a bridge to when you get more spell slots later.

I think another domain gives an inspire-courage-like ability, etc. Find a couple domains (or maybe a domain+ feat if you get extend spell via planning domain) that give you something useful to do in combat. That'll ease the consumable burn and probably be more fun for you. Eventually you'll have enough spell slots to cover your combat actions, but short run you have a problem that all your feats and highest level spell slots are used before any combat starts, which is great for the party but it's not much fun to feel like dead weight when the combat begins.

[bean illus]

Something to consider: The DM is forced to power the monsters to the party's power level. This is extra true in HP, and AC.
So running the same persistent buffs every day is eventually regularly compensated for, and sorta means ... nothing.

Maybe consider utility, instead. Seeing as you are a bit theurged on the TruNecro side, you could pick up arcane spells to compensate.

Ask your DM how much access to prestige classes and feats you'll have, from which splat books. It's possible to add 6-10 domains to your cleric, many of which greatly increase character options. You can pick up numerous spells from other classes, including arcane spells, and spell powers that boost power and options.

And you'll have 3 feats open. If you pick a devotion feat, you'll have a way to burn your TU. Consider lowering Cha.

[Ursinorum]

Thanks guys, I did learn a lot from your answers.

Unfortunately a different player decided to go cleric, so I'm gonna go Rogue (eheh..)

At least I know how to do sneak attacks, so I'm good.

Cheers!

[Hua]

I know you decided against cleric, but a couple items for the discussion.

You would be too low level to get many feats, so if you do go DMM, only get 1 MM feat. Extend is cheap and good for buff spells (and summons) but won't help healing.
Empower will be good for healing, but it is expensive, so won't get many per day. Quicken is right out.
Widen, enlarge, heighten, all junk for a healbot

For stats, you want the cha bonus for more turn attempts per day.
Wisdom is important, but you don't need to max it. You can boost it later. Even a 14 is plenty for now, if you have to.
Keep con and dex at least 10.
Str and Int will be your dump stats, just don't go too far. A low int will definitely have game play consequences.

Yes, get a riding dog for movement speed and to defend you. It can block a square next to you, encourage others to not come to you, and does decent damage at low levels. Of course if your dex stinks, so will your ride skill...

Crossbow is good for the weak, as long as DM allows you to be able to **** it. It is still a small weapon, and may not be worth the cost early.

Wands, scrolls, and even potions will be your friends.

Always remember: The best armor is other people. Don't go into combat other than to heal.