Echo Knight question

[Sandeman]

Can a lvl 7 Echo Knight use the lvl 7 power to move his echo up to a 1000 feet away, and then use the lvl 3 power to swap places with his echo ( =teleport) ?
At least that is how I read the RAW.

[Evaar]

Yes.

More words for character limit.

[Sigreid]

I googled the Echo Knight online, and with just a little bit of creativity it can be one of the most broken things I've ever seen. I'm not sure I'd let it in a game that wasn't calibrated for it.

[Bobthewizard]

The wording seems to say you can, but according to JC, that is an error and it will get fixed.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/question-about-the-echo-knight-can-you-switch-places-with-the-echo-if-you-are-using-the-echo-avatar-feature/

[Sigreid]

The wording seems to say you can, but according to JC, that is an error and it will get fixed.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/question-about-the-echo-knight-can-you-switch-places-with-the-echo-if-you-are-using-the-echo-avatar-feature/

That will make it less broken at that level. I instantly envisioned 1000' teleports and sitting 1000' away in total safety as my avatar used archery to mow down the enemy.

[Spiritchaser]

I googled the Echo Knight online, and with just a little bit of creativity it can be one of the most broken things I've ever seen. I'm not sure I'd let it in a game that wasn't calibrated for it.

I would say it’s the strongest fighter (note, I’ve never tried a rune knight, I hear those are competitive with it) but it’s still no wizard, it’s not a Shepard druid, it’s not a sorcadin.

There are plenty of stronger builds in the game, and then there’s twilight cleric for absurd stuff.

I really do not see echo knight as broken. Strong? Hell yes. Rewards careful gridsquare chess? Definitely. Allows for creative solutions to out of combat (or in combat) problems? Not as much as spell casting but check that box too.

I think it’s a great character, especially with some ancestral guardian thrown in, but game breaking?

Nah.

[Sigreid]

I would say it’s the strongest fighter (note, I’ve never tried a rune knight, I hear those are competitive with it) but it’s still no wizard, it’s not a Shepard druid, it’s not a sorcadin.

There are plenty of stronger builds in the game, and then there’s twilight cleric for absurd stuff.

I really do not see echo knight as broken. Strong? Hell yes. Rewards careful gridsquare chess? Definitely. Allows for creative solutions to out of combat (or in combat) problems? Not as much as spell casting but check that box too.

I think it’s a great character, especially with some ancestral guardian thrown in, but game breaking?

Nah.

The issue I have with it is their tricks are infinite. No resource cost to use them. I mean, even the darn battle master can only do their cool extra stuff a few times before they have to recharge.

[Spiritchaser]

The issue I have with it is their tricks are infinite. No resource cost to use them. I mean, even the darn battle master can only do their cool extra stuff a few times before they have to recharge.

I guess for some gritty realism campaigns it could be an issue. I’ll confess I have not tried that.

[Rav]

I guess for some gritty realism campaigns it could be an issue. I’ll confess I have not tried that.

That isn't a gritty realism issue it is a power balance one. Having to carefully expend resource vs freely using them at will are two entirely different situations.

[Spiritchaser]

That isn't a gritty realism issue it is a power balance one. Having to carefully expend resource vs freely using them at will are two entirely different situations.

Well… no. They’re very much related, at least when comparing different power sets.

Having infinite uses of a power has a different comparative strength when there are 2-4 encounters per short rest than it does when there are 5-8 encounters per short rest, ditto if there are 6-8 encounters per long rest vs, potentially a great many more in a gritty realism campaign.

An echo knight with unlimited uses of their key powers is still less powerful than strong casters or hybrids in the former cases.

I can’t make more than educated speculative comments about the latter cases.

[Sandeman]

The wording seems to say you can, but according to JC, that is an error and it will get fixed.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/question-about-the-echo-knight-can-you-switch-places-with-the-echo-if-you-are-using-the-echo-avatar-feature/

Thanks. I think our group will follow JCs ruling.

[Dr.Samurai]

I would say it’s the strongest fighter (note, I’ve never tried a rune knight, I hear those are competitive with it) but it’s still no wizard, it’s not a Shepard druid, it’s not a sorcadin.

There are plenty of stronger builds in the game, and then there’s twilight cleric for absurd stuff.

I really do not see echo knight as broken. Strong? Hell yes. Rewards careful gridsquare chess? Definitely. Allows for creative solutions to out of combat (or in combat) problems? Not as much as spell casting but check that box too.

I think it’s a great character, especially with some ancestral guardian thrown in, but game breaking?

Nah.
Not to sound trite but it really depends on what people mean by "strongest" and "broken".

Also, these terms will change at each game table.

Any DM has to contend with unlimited teleportation potential once the echo knight is in play. They have to contend with the fact that an echo knight can easily bypass their front line. An echo knight paired with the Sentinel feat can just stop enemies from advancing any closer to the party.

The DM has to adapt to this. In most circumstances, that is normal. But with the echo knight, there's not much adaptation if the fighter can now just teleport past obstacles, up to elevations, etc. at-will. It's just "okay, gates don't stop him, rooftops don't matter, chasms are irrelevant, etc." This is different than Misty Step/Dimension Door/etc. because those use up resources. So at level 3 the fighter has an at-will bonus action 60ft teleport that he needs to set up the turn before. Is this broken? I don't know, I guess it depends on if you like to run complex or dynamic battlefields. There's no attrition happening here. You can't run this fighter through three encounters so that in the fourth encounter he can no longer teleport over the 40ft chasm separating the party from the goblin archers on the other side. There's no cost/benefit analysis like "well, if I hadn't used my spell slot in an earlier encounter, I'd be able to teleport up to that mage in the watchtower and take him out, but it was still a good use of a spell slot before because it allowed me to do x,y,z". It's just an always usable ability.

Similarly, you double the squares that you can threaten, and with Sentinel, this means that your Echo can literally prevent the enemy from even reaching your party. Normally this is the fighter's job, but now he can do it without actually being in range of the enemy. To get by the enemy has to lose an attack on the echo. This is fine normally because he's taking swings at the fighter. But now he's just taking swings at a damage sink that will be summoned again next turn. This isn't a pet that will need to be healed, or a summon that comes from a spell slot. It's just a damage sink that comes back every turn as a bonus action.

Finally, the echo knight makes it that much easier to bypass the front line. It's just a bonus action and you can plop your echo 15ft away and move it 30ft more. Any caster within 45ft is reachable. That's without the fighter moving. If the fighter can move forward, any caster within 75ft is reachable (60ft if you want to maintain the echo to threaten the mage on its turn).

Are these things "broken"? I am not sure all DMs are going to easily be able to deal with an echo knight at the table because it changes some assumptions about the game. I think that can be an interpretation of "broken".

I don't think of "strongest" when I think of echo knight. I think of Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight because they add other options to their repertoire. I think of "other" when I think of the echo knight. It just changes the dynamic a lot.

[Spiritchaser]

I don't think of "strongest" when I think of echo knight. I think of Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight because they add other options to their repertoire. I think of "other" when I think of the echo knight. It just changes the dynamic a lot.

I guess when I think echo knight I think fun.

Legitimately fun pure fighter.

And the world is a very slightly better place if you believe those exist.

I’d love to see more martials with alien mechanics like the echo knight.



I do appreciate that different things will be broken at different tables. An echo knight with sentinel will be much stronger against a single target with only one, or a few attacks. A DM who likes to field lots of enemies like that will find more issues than with hoards of multi attack muppets.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

We haven't had one. Sure it's a heck of a trick, but it's basically still a one trick pony. BM and EK continue to add to their options as they level and get more meaningful combat choices, but these things... I just can't imagine doing that for 20 levels or 10. Maybe 5 then I'd want to multiclass or start a new character.

[arnin77]

That will make it less broken at that level. I instantly envisioned 1000' teleports and sitting 1000' away in total safety as my avatar used archery to mow down the enemy.

I don’t think that would work. You need to see your enemy to attack through your echo, probably tough from 1000 feet away, plus it disappears at the end of your turn if it’s more than 30’ away from you; so even if you did get to attack through it, it would only be for one turn but I’m pretty sure as soon as you stop being defeaned and blinded by that ability it disappears anyways.

Referring to other posts… the unleash incarnation ability is not infinite. You can only use it as much as your con mod.

I just got mine to level 4 at it’s quite fun, but I enjoy combat more than roleplay and I like being the strong silent type while others add the flavor, so people who like being a “face” might not like it; although there’s nothing stopping you from being an echo knight face if you wanted.

[Sigreid]

I don’t think that would work. You need to see your enemy to attack through your echo, probably tough from 1000 feet away, plus it disappears at the end of your turn if it’s more than 30’ away from you; so even if you did get to attack through it, it would only be for one turn but I’m pretty sure as soon as you stop being defeaned and blinded by that ability it disappears anyways.

Referring to other posts… the unleash incarnation ability is not infinite. You can only use it as much as your con mod.

I just got mine to level 4 at it’s quite fun, but I enjoy combat more than roleplay and I like being the strong silent type while others add the flavor, so people who like being a “face” might not like it; although there’s nothing stopping you from being an echo knight face if you wanted.

As it reads right now, at level 18 you can move it out to 1000 feet as well as use your senses and attack at that range and it wont fade. That was a high level trick. At lower levels there's plenty of utility to make harming you nearly impossible if you think.

[arnin77]

As it reads right now, at level 18 you can move it out to 1000 feet as well as use your senses and attack at that range and it wont fade. That was a high level trick. At lower levels there's plenty of utility to make harming you nearly impossible if you think.

What? That’s not what I’m reading. All I’m seeing is that you can have two echoes at the same time at level 18.

[Sigreid]

What? That’s not what I’m reading. All I’m seeing is that you can have two echoes at the same time at level 18.

Apologies. It appears it's the level 7 ability.

Starting at 7th level, you can temporarily transfer your consciousness to your echo. As an action, you can see through your echo's eyes and hear through its ears. During this time, you are deafened and blinded. You can sustain this effect for up to 10 minutes, and you can end it at any time (requires no action). While your echo is being used in this way, it can be up to 1,000 feet away from you without being destroyed.

[arnin77]

Apologies. It appears it's the level 7 ability.

Starting at 7th level, you can temporarily transfer your consciousness to your echo. As an action, you can see through your echo's eyes and hear through its ears. During this time, you are deafened and blinded. You can sustain this effect for up to 10 minutes, and you can end it at any time (requires no action). While your echo is being used in this way, it can be up to 1,000 feet away from you without being destroyed.

Right but how are you attacking through your echo at that range over and over again? It seems like it should be destroyed once you stop seeing through it. And even if you try to attack through it at that range, you’re blind and deaf where you are… I dunno. I don’t think it’s saying you can attack through it at that range at all but I guess it’s not saying you can’t?

[arnin77]

I think maybe I had mistaken my memory since I read this post before playing an echo knight and just assumed you couldn’t attack through the echo at 1000 feet

Here’s an echo knight FAQ that I found quite informative and should probably be kept on hand when playing the subclass: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/fighter/64918-an-echo-knight-faq-frequently-asked-questions

[Sillybird99]

Most people that think the echo knight is broken dont understand how the echo works.

It takes an action to see through the echoes senses. which means you cant attack through the echo using that ability unless you action surge.

An echo knight with sentinel cannot hold the line of the hoardes of enemy even with sentinel feat. An echo knight only gets one reaction. Even if it had 20 echoes up, it could still only stop one enemy per round.

[Sigreid]

Right but how are you attacking through your echo at that range over and over again? It seems like it should be destroyed once you stop seeing through it. And even if you try to attack through it at that range, you’re blind and deaf where you are… I dunno. I don’t think it’s saying you can attack through it at that range at all but I guess it’s not saying you can’t?

In a nut shell, since it's not a limited resource, if it gets destroyed, so what? Make another and move it out there again. Meanwhile by safe and secure location I'm picturing well away from the people you are murdering so being blind and deaf isn't a big deal.

As far as being able to attack from it, I don't see anything that distinguishes it from any other echo except the range and sensory stuff so my read would be it's usable as any other echo.

Edit to the post above, it reads as there's an action to start it and you can maintain it up to 10 minutes. I don't see anything that makes me read that as it takes your action every round.

[Spiritchaser]

Most people that think the echo knight is broken dont understand how the echo works.


I agree with the single exception of grapples.

Echo knight rules get a lot of flack but I don’t think they’re really that bad at all, at least in the context of 5e. Alien? Yes, but bad? even the darkness spell is arguably worse.

Except grapples.

I mean, clearly you can make a grapple from the echo’s space, a grapple is a type of attack, and you can attack from the echo’s space.

but… a grapple ends when an effect removes a grappled foe from your reach.

So, you grapple a foe… and it’s outside your reach. The grapple ends right away right? Or not? Do we say that by strict legalistic RAW the grapple is still in play because no effect has occurred to remove the target from your reach, it always was beyond your reach? Based on a strict linguistic assessment, we certainly would, and by RAI, it’s probably reasonable as well…

Except…

This has the nonsensical implication that if the target was subsequently moved by some such effect, the grapple still stays in play because no effect has moved the grappled creature from inside your reach to outside your reach (or maybe a stricter reading would require that if the foe is moved at all while it is outside your reach the grapple ends?)

Common sense can pretty quickly patch this part up. The rules say you can grapple, so grapple. Strictly speaking the rules don’t say the grapple ends without an effect to end it, so the grapple can be maintained through the echo’s space. We either add a houserule based on presumed RAI that if a forced movement effect would position your foe beyond where you could grapple them through your echo, the grapple ends… or we strictly read that ANY forced movement effect that impacts the target grappled through the echo and which doesn’t position the target within the PC’s reach ends the grapple. that’s all good right?

Nope.

How in hades do we adjudicate dragging a target through the echo?

Keep in mind there appear to be some fairly strong things that could be done with this, so builds around it are probably not just thought exercises.

I honestly don’t know the right answer to this one, and for now my cop-out answer is just: you can’t. RAW was never meant to deal with it and I haven’t spent the energy trying to house rule a safe set of limits.

I suppose one good option would be to ask a bunch of optimizes to construct the most broken grapple-knights they could and see if anything really outrageous happens.

Hmmn.

[Dr.Samurai]

I guess when I think echo knight I think fun.

Legitimately fun pure fighter.

And the world is a very slightly better place if you believe those exist.

I’d love to see more martials with alien mechanics like the echo knight.
I agree. I am not really saying that the echo knight is bad or not fun; I almost submitted one to a PBP recently.

But I don't think it's a subclass that can be plopped into every game seamlessly without throwing some DMs for a loop.

Most people that think the echo knight is broken dont understand how the echo works.

It takes an action to see through the echoes senses. which means you cant attack through the echo using that ability unless you action surge.

An echo knight with sentinel cannot hold the line of the hoardes of enemy even with sentinel feat. An echo knight only gets one reaction. Even if it had 20 echoes up, it could still only stop one enemy per round.
Right... I don't think anyone said the echo can hold off an army of bad guys. But that is one enemy per turn for every encounter ever again. It's just a bonus action. Admittedly, the monster can attack and pop the echo knight and then move. But you've just wasted an attack. And if the monster misses, the echo remains and can hit it and stop it from moving.

It's not game-breaking like "you'll win every encounter from now on", but it is a resource-less ability that changes encounters going forward. Your back line caster can now be reached by the fighter very easily. Your front line bruiser can now be stopped without the fighter having to put himself in danger. Your fighter can now reach hard to get to places with relative ease. At-will.

It changes the dynamic. It's not good or bad, but I think it's easy to understand why some people think it's too much. Not every table is the same.

[Sillybird99]

it's a bonus action AND a reaction. Also, not hard for monsters to have teleport, burrow, flight or any number of other ways to get around it.

Also fireball or shatter. These spells do damage to objects, destroying the echo and damaging the party without wasting action economy.

If a DM is having trouble with an echo, they arent trying very hard. I am a very tactical player and have played an echo knight up to level 12. Frequently my echoes die from spells that damage objects, attacks, environmental effects, etc. Attacking an echo is not a wasted attack. it means the fighter has to use a bonus action to make a new one, in a different location, and not have a bonus action for teleporting, drinking a potion (if homebrewed as such) using second wind, using a multiclass feature or doing anything else.

Also the echo can not make ability checks. So it cannot stealth or roll athletics to grapple. It might sound OP to send an echo 1,000 feat away and make attacks, but it has to get that far without taking a single point of damage, while obvious and out in the open. That is super easy to mitigate as a DM.

**Edit** Also if a melee fighter (or any character) is not being put in danger, then someone isnt doing their job, either the fighter or the DM.

[Dr.Samurai]

it's a bonus action AND a reaction. Also, not hard for monsters to have teleport, burrow, flight or any number of other ways to get around it.
Yes, opportunity attacks cost reactions.

Flying does not help since the Echo can be summoned in the air. Again, your fighter can now melee opponents in the air. This changes a dynamic.

Teleport is a doozy for sure. The echo can't use Sentinel to stop a teleport but... it does allow the fighter to teleport to the teleporting enemy so again... a dynamic has changed.

Burrow is fine. Monster can't go underground if it gets hit with Sentinel though so it all depends on who does what first. But sure, if the monster is already tunneling, fair point.

Also fireball or shatter. These spells do damage to objects, destroying the echo and damaging the party without wasting action economy.
Who is throwing this fireball? Because next turn a bonus action is going to summon the echo right next to them for a nice action surge sequence.

If a DM is having trouble with an echo, they arent trying very hard.
Correct. They are trying the normal amount expected for a DM. Once an echo is involved, now they have to try harder to protect their backline, make sure a bruiser can threaten the party, provide obstacles the fighter can't just teleport around, involve flying enemies that can challenge a melee character, etc.

Yeah, agreed.

I am a very tactical player and have played an echo knight up to level 12. Frequently my echoes die from spells that damage objects, attacks, environmental effects, etc.
No one said they are immortal, only that they can be summoned at-will.

Attacking an echo is not a wasted attack. it means the fighter has to use a bonus action to make a new one, in a different location, and not have a bonus action for teleporting, drinking a potion (if homebrewed as such) using second wind, using a multiclass feature or doing anything else.
So the monster is using its attack meant to kill players to instead lock the fighter's bonus action. Got it.


I'm probably overselling my point but the notion that an echo knight is only a problem for lazy DMs is annoying. I feel like people on the internet imagine D&D to be this really tightly played, competitive game, as opposed to the super casual and relaxed game that it mostly is.

[Sillybird99]

Have you played as an echo knight? or DMed for one? Because your arguments are kinda moot if you havent. And if you have, then mine are lol.

It is strong. I won't deny that. But we play a game in which martials are not that strong. I can think of numerous level 7 (or lower) characters that are more difficult to challenge or deal with than a level 7 echo knight.

If your table is not optimized and more of a casual game, then sure, an echo knight might shine a bit more than at an optimized table, assuming that echo knight is equally not optimized in build or tactics, there is nothing that should be concerning if the subclass is well understood by the DM. And a DM should understand what their characters are capable of if they mean to challenge them at all.

[Evaar]

It takes an action to see through the echoes senses. which means you cant attack through the echo using that ability unless you action surge.

The effect lasts 10 minutes.

[Sillybird99]

The effect lasts 10 minutes.

Yeah you right. I play that it works like find familiar. Action each turn for up to 10 minutes. Forget that wasn't RAW.

[Sillybird99]

Who is throwing this fireball? Because next turn a bonus action is going to summon the echo right next to them for a nice action surge sequence.


Fireball is 120ft. The most ground a typical echo knight can cover in a round is 75ft: 30ft move, summon echo 15ft. away. Move echo 30ft. Then the echo disappears at end of turn for being more than 30ft away from the knight. So, yes. If your mage is within 80ft. of the echo knight, and there are 0 battlefield concerns to the knight moving 30ft, then they could action surge your mage. Those conditions seem like more of a DM problem than a subclass problem. And the mage still got their fireball off...



Correct. They are trying the normal amount expected for a DM. Once an echo is involved, now they have to try harder to protect their backline, make sure a bruiser can threaten the party, provide obstacles the fighter can't just teleport around, involve flying enemies that can challenge a melee character, etc.


Or 'once a caster/paladin/fey touched/aaracokra/winged tiefling/owlin/eladrin etc. is involved.' These are not echo specific issues.

[Dr.Samurai]

Have you played as an echo knight? or DMed for one? Because your arguments are kinda moot if you havent. And if you have, then mine are lol.
I haven't and I haven't. But I've played alongside one. But I don't think it makes the points moot on either side.

My point is to understand that tables are different, and for some people the echo knight is too much. Similar to your most recent response where you counter my point with aarakocra and winged tiefling... it's like yeah, many DMs don't allow winged races for PCs.

What's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander when it comes to D&D tables.

If your table is not optimized and more of a casual game, then sure, an echo knight might shine a bit more than at an optimized table, assuming that echo knight is equally not optimized in build or tactics, there is nothing that should be concerning if the subclass is well understood by the DM. And a DM should understand what their characters are capable of if they mean to challenge them at all.
That's a handful of conditions to make your statement true. And that's my point. If you play at a specific table, we'll call it the Online Meta D&D Table, then echo knight is fine. But so is everything else. Coffeelocks are fine. Nuclear Wizards are fine. Everything is okay because the DM should just adapt his encounters for every single gimmick the players throw at him.

Not all tables have players with headsets and fingerless gloves ready to extract every ounce of efficiency from their actions and finish the encounter in 2.3 rounds if they're not trying. Same goes for the DMs.

Fireball is 120ft.
That doesn't mean the encounter begins at 120ft away.

So, yes. If your mage is within 80ft. of the echo knight, and there are 0 battlefield concerns to the knight moving 30ft, then they could action surge your mage.
The mage IS a battlefield concern.

But, just to be clear, it's okay that the fighter is targeting the mage and getting to them and Action Surging. I'm not against this in general. It's that from now on, this will be true always and forever. To quote you "If your mage is within 80ft of the echo knight... then they can action surge your mage". That's not normally the case for a melee character in every single turn of every single encounter, with the exception of maybe a high level monk (assuming no obstacles that need teleportation), and the monk is still using Ki to do it.

Those conditions seem like more of a DM problem than a subclass problem.
That's the rub though... is the subclass a problem or the DM a problem? In this case I don't think DMs are at fault for not being able to deal with an echo knight.

Or 'once a caster/paladin/fey touched/aaracokra/winged tiefling/owlin/elastin etc. is involved.' These are not echo specific issues.
I did mention attrition, resourceless, etc. I am not claiming the echo knight can do things that no one else can. It's that they can do them at-will. Once you've used fey-touched, you can't do it again until you rest.

With regards to aarakocra, etc., some DMs don't allow winged races for precisely these reasons. I am sure you will fault those DMs as well, what can I say in that case? Further, those races can't wear heavy armor, and the birds can't even wear medium armor. So it's still not the same, because on the one hand you have a lightly armored fighter flying up and engaging an enemy, making himself a target, and on the other you have a fighter in full plate staying on the ground and just summoning his echo knight to deal with the flier. If the lightly armored fighter gets hit (likely) they lose HP. If the echo gets hit... you just tanked an enemy attack for the cost of a bonus action, woohoo!

[Sillybird99]

I'm not faulting DMs for not liking or allowing certain mechanics. That is there prerogative. I do the same thing when I DM sometimes. If they don't want echo knight in their game, that is fine (not that it matters to me at all).
A DM would be a fault for allowing any mechanic without understanding its implications to the game or adjusting those mechanics after the fact so they do fit.

But even as written, echo knight, at an all content allowed highly optimized table is not near the top of OP. And at a sub optimal table, the echo will be suboptimal most of the time. Brokenness has a lot more to do with the player behind the mechanics than the mechanics themselves.

[arnin77]

I don’t know if resummoning it as a bonus action for free is OP or Broken. Most of the time I’ve been using it I’ve actually had it standing beside me hoping it would be a target so I could prock sentinel. I don’t even think I’ve had to resummon it once during combat yet to be honest. I did use it to teleport once though so I might have resummoned it the next round.

It’s definitely nice to be able to split up attacks 30’ away if you spread it out, but it’s probably just better to put all the attacks into one enemy and down it.

I’d say the free attack is more powerful, since I’ve had two attacks per round because of it (plus two more with action surge - at level 3) But that’s not a free resource, as I only get it 3 times (con mod) per short rest. (Heck if I had PAM I’d get 3 attacks at level 3…or 5 in one round with action surge at level 3)

It’s definitely an awkward subclass for a DM and player but I think if the player knows most of the rules for it then they can save the DM some headaches. (And more clarification from Wizards as well….)

Basically what I do is round 1: I bonus action summon it, run it up and attack through it; then I run up beside it and hope it gets attacked - but really; the enemy sees me attacking through it so if it’s smart it’ll just attack me anyways.

[Sillybird99]

I don’t know if resummoning it as a bonus action for free is OP or Broken. Most of the time I’ve been using it I’ve actually had it standing beside me hoping it would be a target so I could prock sentinel. I don’t even think I’ve had to resummon it once during combat yet to be honest. I did use it to teleport once though so I might have resummoned it the next round.

It’s definitely nice to be able to split up attacks 30’ away if you spread it out, but it’s probably just better to put all the attacks into one enemy and down it.

I’d say the free attack is more powerful, since I’ve had two attacks per round because of it (plus two more with action surge - at level 3) But that’s not a free resource, as I only get it 3 times (con mod) per short rest. (Heck if I had PAM I’d get 3 attacks at level 3…or 5 in one round with action surge at level 3)

It’s definitely an awkward subclass for a DM and player but I think if the player knows most of the rules for it then they can save the DM some headaches. (And more clarification from Wizards as well….)

Basically what I do is round 1: I bonus action summon it, run it up and attack through it; then I run up beside it and hope it gets attacked - but really; the enemy sees me attacking through it so if it’s smart it’ll just attack me anyways.

Yeah I feel ya. My character is a fighter. They get in the fight. The echo just allows more targetting flexibility and maneuverability to stay in the fight. My echos die alot. my character has been downed several times and died once. Because 'fighter' not 'hide behind an object-er'. And as typically the only real front line character, the echo is necessary to keep big creatures off the casters by allowing being in two places at once when necessary.

I also agree that unleash incarnation should be what's discussed as being broken, more than the echo itself. With action surge and haste, at level 5, doing 7 attacks in one round is insane damage. That is the only ability I've ever had another DM or player complain about

[Pex]

How interesting people complaining about a Fighter being too powerful.

[Spiritchaser]

How interesting people complaining about a Fighter being too powerful.

As a thought experiment, I wonder what the game would look like if you added interesting features to fighters until the number of OP complaints on the internet equaled those for wizards?

[sayaijin]

Whenever I see a thread about Echo Knight questions, I like to drop a link to this FAQ.

I didn't put it together, but I think it's very well done.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/fighter/64918-an-echo-knight-faq-frequently-asked-questions

[Chaos Jackal]

For one, being able to attack during Echo Avatar might eventually be changed (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242199682534608896), but even if it doesn't... so what?

Scouting safely at long distances can be accomplished in a variety of ways, one of them being a very popular 1st-level ritual, and as far as using it for attacking, OK, great, you'll get a few attacks off, then the echo will be killed because it has 1 hit point and the trick will likely not work again... assuming the echo can even reach the place you want it to safely, because it doesn't have stats to roll stealth with, has no defenses and is quite obvious and out of place. And if your enemies don't have means to quickly take out the echo if it starts firing at them in the Avatar state, then they wouldn't have the means to take out a couple Sharpshooter users, or spellcasters throwing down long-range spells or something of the kind. You're probably better off giving a Sharpshooter (or even just someone with a longbow) greater invisibility and let them turn whatever enemy place you have your eyes on into an archery range, than using something that has 1hp and can't roll stealth as a commando unit.

Is using Echo Avatar for hit-and-run useful? Of course. Strong, even? Yeah, it's a nice ability. Broken? Come on.

[Dr.Samurai]

How interesting people complaining about a Fighter being too powerful.
Boy I hope I'm being understood in this thread...

Fighter is my favorite class (well, was, before 5e), so I am in no way complaining about the fighter being too powerful. All I did in 3rd edition after Pun-Pun was build fighter builds.

But I recognize that the meta online is not the meta at everyone's tables, and the Echo Knight has the potential to change gameplay significantly, so that some DMs will have trouble with it.

If you play it as some of the others mentioned here, where it just stands next to you, then obviously that's not going to change anything.

But the point is that this is not a fighter that can prone your frontline bruiser or parry an attack like the battlemaster. This fighter can instantly reach your backline, can use GWM on flying enemies, can stop one of your frontline bruisers from reaching the party, etc.

It's not "broken". But it can be a headache for the DMs. I don't know what is difficult to grasp about this unless you think everyone plays the game in the exact same way.

[Chaos Jackal]

Boy I hope I'm being understood in this thread...

Fighter is my favorite class (well, was, before 5e), so I am in no way complaining about the fighter being too powerful. All I did in 3rd edition after Pun-Pun was build fighter builds.

But I recognize that the meta online is not the meta at everyone's tables, and the Echo Knight has the potential to change gameplay significantly, so that some DMs will have trouble with it.

If you play it as some of the others mentioned here, where it just stands next to you, then obviously that's not going to change anything.

But the point is that this is not a fighter that can prone your frontline bruiser or parry an attack like the battlemaster. This fighter can instantly reach your backline, can use GWM on flying enemies, can stop one of your frontline bruisers from reaching the party, etc.

It's not "broken". But it can be a headache for the DMs. I don't know what is difficult to grasp about this unless you think everyone plays the game in the exact same way.

A headache compared to the average fighter? Sure. A headache to what players can pull off without even resorting to cheese or optimizing too hard? Definitely not.

I'm not gonna speak on behalf of others in this thread, but what I personally find difficult to grasp in your statements is precisely that: how is the Echo Knight, of all things, a headache for a DM that is dealing with anything between good use of find familiar and using Sharpshooter to its full potential?

If you're talking about DMs and tables who typically go "fighter beats things, rogue sneaks around, cleric heals, wizard throws explosions", then sure, it's gonna be a headache, but then again so will anything that deviates somewhat from that norm. If you're talking about DMs and tables that can handle some more "advanced" tricks but don't typically fall further than, say, 'Sharpshooter Samurai elf" or "PAM+Sentinel" or just "sure, you can play a flying race", eh, maybe, but there's definitely a lot of stuff liable to cause headaches before the Echo Knight.

So, am I understanding you correctly? Are you talking about the kind of DM that would get a headache from a PAM Sentinel trivializing duels or a Sharpshooter killing a bandit camp from the woods? Then sure, I agree, the Echo Knight can be a headache. But it doesn't take much more than that for the Echo Knight to cease being a headache.

Really, the biggest reason for the subclass to cause trouble is how undefined the echo itself is. The FAQ that a couple people linked earlier exemplifies that. Quite popular because many are stumbling over the vagueness of the feature, and full of tweets, conjectures and RAI hypothesizing because the text has very little. It doesn't even clearly state if the echo is a creature or an object. Echo Knight is fun and cool, but it really could've used better editing.

[Sigreid]

When I derailed this thread (sorry) I think it got missed that the only part of echo knight that I have issue with is that such a powerful feature has no resource requirement. If it expended some kind of a resource, thus making using it be a choice instead of a default, I wouldn't have an issue at all. Taking the limitation off when the BM fighter can use his special tricks would also be acceptable to me. To me, it's "broken" because I see it's features as so much better than anything any of the other fighter subclasses get that I can't see picking another if this is an option unless you're just trying to be a hipster about character creation.

[Spiritchaser]

Not to answer for others, but one place I feel the echo knight is legitimately a headache for DMs is in the hands of a newer or inexperienced player, or a player who wants a simple to play character with mostly basic combat interactions.

A while ago I wanted to see an echo knight in action so I made a DM PC as a mostly non-combat NPC that could be a loaner character for a drop in.

I did not choose wisely.

Understanding that the echo is not a creature but rather more of an echo knight shaped hole in reality that the knight could attack through doesn’t take too long to sort out, but the finer points of other interactions are not obvious.

If you’re used to playing control wizards or darkness hexblades… shepherd druids or anything that’s got to pay a fair bit of attention to exactly where all the lines are on the graph paper, this won’t be a stretch… but if you wanted to play a fighter… assuming you’d do typical fighter things with maybe a bit of sentinel thrown in… well this isn’t that.

[Chaos Jackal]

When I derailed this thread (sorry) I think it got missed that the only part of echo knight that I have issue with is that such a powerful feature has no resource requirement. If it expended some kind of a resource, thus making using it be a choice instead of a default, I wouldn't have an issue at all. Taking the limitation off when the BM fighter can use his special tricks would also be acceptable to me. To me, it's "broken" because I see it's features as so much better than anything any of the other fighter subclasses get that I can't see picking another if this is an option unless you're just trying to be a hipster about character creation.

You can't see a practical reason to play a Samurai, Psi Warrior, Battle Master, Rune Knight or Eldritch Knight over an Echo Knight?

You're either really overestimating the Echo Knight's features and its at-will baseline, or are really underestimating the aforementioned. The Echo Knight is, indeed, one of the better fighter subclasses. It's definitely not the only good fighter subclass, however, and I'd say it's not even the strongest. Definitely top 5, possibly top 3. But that's about it. And even if you do consider it the strongest, it's certainly not so by such leaps and bounds as to make the question of which fighter subclass to use one of flavor and how much of a hipster you are.


Not to answer for others, but one place I feel the echo knight is legitimately a headache for DMs is in the hands of a newer or inexperienced player, or a player who wants a simple to play character with mostly basic combat interactions.

A while ago I wanted to see an echo knight in action so I made a DM PC as a mostly non-combat NPC that could be a loaner character for a drop in.

I did not choose wisely.

Understanding that the echo is not a creature but rather more of an echo knight shaped hole in reality that the knight could attack through doesn’t take too long to sort out, but the finer points of other interactions are not obvious.

If you’re used to playing control wizards or darkness hexblades… shepherd druids or anything that’s got to pay a fair bit of attention to exactly where all the lines are on the graph paper, this won’t be a stretch… but if you wanted to play a fighter… assuming you’d do typical fighter things with maybe a bit of sentinel thrown in… well this isn’t that.

This I can fully agree with. Like I said above, the Echo Knight really isn't fleshed out all that well. Until you come to some agreement with the DM and the rest of the table (hopefully out of session) you're gonna be left with plenty of question marks and uncertainties. And that agreement is gonna have to be based more or less on conjecture and personal views, because there's very little to define the echo's interactions in the text.

[Sigreid]

You can't see a practical reason to play a Samurai, Psi Warrior, Battle Master, Rune Knight or Eldritch Knight over an Echo Knight?

You're either really overestimating the Echo Knight's features and its at-will baseline, or are really underestimating the aforementioned. The Echo Knight is, indeed, one of the better fighter subclasses. It's definitely not the only good fighter subclass, however, and I'd say it's not even the strongest. Definitely top 5, possibly top 3. But that's about it. And even if you do consider it the strongest, it's certainly not so by such leaps and bounds as to make the question of which fighter subclass to use one of flavor and how much of a hipster you are.

In general, I personally think their limitations on their cool, unique thing drops them down.

But it's true I haven't played in a game with a Echo Knight. I just saw the abilities and they way I could use them and know my group has a history of breaking power expectations with even just the PHB stuff. Again, it's the unlimited use when the special tricks of the other subclasses are generally very, very limited in use that I find issue with. Could be fixed by raising one or lowering the other. Either is fine.

[Dr.Samurai]

If you're talking about DMs and tables who typically go "fighter beats things, rogue sneaks around, cleric heals, wizard throws explosions", then sure, it's gonna be a headache, but then again so will anything that deviates somewhat from that norm.
But that's precisely what I'm talking about. Not all tables are the same. So yes, some tables will have difficulty with the resourceless at-will teleportation, flying melee avatar, and instant reach of the backline.

If you're talking about DMs and tables that can handle some more "advanced" tricks but don't typically fall further than, say, 'Sharpshooter Samurai elf" or "PAM+Sentinel" or just "sure, you can play a flying race", eh, maybe, but there's definitely a lot of stuff liable to cause headaches before the Echo Knight.
Yes, I am not, nor have I, posited that Echo Knight is the strongest of the strong or in the same league as OP builds.

So, am I understanding you correctly? Are you talking about the kind of DM that would get a headache from a PAM Sentinel trivializing duels or a Sharpshooter killing a bandit camp from the woods? Then sure, I agree, the Echo Knight can be a headache. But it doesn't take much more than that for the Echo Knight to cease being a headache.
Again though, PAM Sentinel normally requires the fighter to be there, risking attack in order to stop enemy movement. The echo is not a risk, it's a limitless bonus action resource. Sharpshooter is ranged power, yes. But it doesn't also stop enemies from moving, which the echo can with Sentinel. So a flying echo using PAM Sentinel on a flier is not the same thing as a Sharpshooter.

As I mentioned before, I almost submitted an echo knight to a game. The subclass doesn't offend me. I'm pointing out that some tables might have an issue with it.

[Chaos Jackal]

But that's precisely what I'm talking about. Not all tables are the same. So yes, some tables will have difficulty with the resourceless at-will teleportation, flying melee avatar, and instant reach of the backline.

Yes, I am not, nor have I, posited that Echo Knight is the strongest of the strong or in the same league as OP builds.

Again though, PAM Sentinel normally requires the fighter to be there, risking attack in order to stop enemy movement. The echo is not a risk, it's a limitless bonus action resource. Sharpshooter is ranged power, yes. But it doesn't also stop enemies from moving, which the echo can with Sentinel. So a flying echo using PAM Sentinel on a flier is not the same thing as a Sharpshooter.

As I mentioned before, I almost submitted an echo knight to a game. The subclass doesn't offend me. I'm pointing out that some tables might have an issue with it.

For what it's worth, you can reduce someone's speed with Sentinel through the echo (it's the only point of Sentinel that can work with the echo, incidentally), but only if said someone is within 5ft of the echo and tries to move. PAM opportunity attacks, reach and generally any other form of attacking that doesn't involve the Attack action or someone adjacent to the echo moving away from it won't work, because you cannot otherwise attack off-turn or off-action from the echo's space. Not that you can't pull off good battlefield control with positioning shenanigans, mind you, just pointing out a few limitations.

Otherwise, thanks for clarifying, and I believe we're mostly in agreement.

[Drascin]

As a thought experiment, I wonder what the game would look like if you added interesting features to fighters until the number of OP complaints on the internet equaled those for wizards?

Honestly, Wizards get far too few complaints as it is.

I've been saying for years that if the Wizard wasn't an ancient class grandfathered in, nobody would have let this stuff fly.

[Pex]

Playing whataboutism.

Imagine, being upset a fighter can reach the back lines and shut down an enemy or two but be ok with a spellcaster casting Hypnotic Pattern or Stinking Cloud onto that back line and shutting down all the enemies there.

[Dr.Samurai]

Honestly, Wizards get far too few complaints as it is.

I've been saying for years that if the Wizard wasn't an ancient class grandfathered in, nobody would have let this stuff fly.
Agreed.

I'd love to see a game where half the book is devoted to martial abilities and then there's a few pages about spells :smallamused:.

[Sigreid]

Agreed.

I'd love to see a game where half the book is devoted to martial abilities and then there's a few pages about spells :smallamused:.

I'd like to see a book that was all about martials and improving their options without turning them into a wizard whose focus is a sword.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Playing whataboutism.

Imagine, being upset a fighter can reach the back lines and shut down an enemy or two but be ok with a spellcaster casting Hypnotic Pattern or Stinking Cloud onto that back line and shutting down all the enemies there.

Yeah, I'm a little baffled about these being called OP. Granted at low levels at will short range teleport is strong, so it might be the strongest subclass to start with. But unlike BM, EK, and Rune Knight they don't really grow in terms of gaining more varied abilities. I'd be more inclined to say they just don't scale that well. The vast majority of our martials end up with a magic item that allows for some increased movement by tier 3, so the Echo Knight trick just isn't that tricky any more.

[Contrast]

If you’re used to playing control wizards or darkness hexblades… shepherd druids or anything that’s got to pay a fair bit of attention to exactly where all the lines are on the graph paper, this won’t be a stretch… but if you wanted to play a fighter… assuming you’d do typical fighter things with maybe a bit of sentinel thrown in… well this isn’t that.

I will say Echo Knight is a mess of vague and uncertain weird rules quirks...if you try and run it strictly RAW. My experience is that its actually very simple to run, you just need to have a couple of minutes discussion between player and DM at session 0 to clarify what the flavour of the echo is and then agree to just rule consistently along lines that make sense.

I agreed with my DM that is doesn't count as a creature but will get destroyed by AoEs and that's been about the extent of the complexity to date.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'd like to see a book that was all about martials and improving their options without turning them into a wizard whose focus is a sword.
Agree here as well. To clarify my comment, I meant a PHB where a large section of the book is devoted to martial options (as spells are now in the PHB), and then a section deals with magic (like the PHB's combat section -- "You can take an action, and that action can either be a ranged or melee attack, and you can move before or after that action, or even in between! Thank you!").

Yeah, I'm a little baffled about these being called OP.
Yeah, I am also baffled as to what is baffling you guys, but such is life. At least you were able to grant that at-will teleportation in tier 1 can be powerful.

I agree with you and a previous poster that the echo knight looks pretty boring going into the later tiers, because it's literally doing the same thing over and over again. That's ultimately why I chose to submit something else to the PbP, because the echo gimmick didn't seem appealing enough to literally be the only thing I can do.

[arnin77]

Agree here as well. To clarify my comment, I meant a PHB where a large section of the book is devoted to martial options (as spells are now in the PHB), and then a section deals with magic (like the PHB's combat section -- "You can take an action, and that action can either be a ranged or melee attack, and you can move before or after that action, or even in between! Thank you!").

Yeah, I am also baffled as to what is baffling you guys, but such is life. At least you were able to grant that at-will teleportation in tier 1 can be powerful.

I agree with you and a previous poster that the echo knight looks pretty boring going into the later tiers, because it's literally doing the same thing over and over again. That's ultimately why I chose to submit something else to the PbP, because the echo gimmick didn't seem appealing enough to literally be the only thing I can do.

By "at will teleportation" do you mean the bonus action misty step you only really use if you're low on hps or grappled that also costs 15 ft of movement and can't be done the same round you summon your echo? Or do you mean the long range teleportation that takes multiple rounds to set up and also costs 15 ft of movement?

[Sillybird99]

Can't do the echo teleport if grappled because grappled makes movement 0, and you need 15 to use it.

But I do agree with the above poster, that a lot more planning and set up has to be present for echo teleport to work, or even be the best option in many cases. Like many abilities, (including silvery barbs, though I hesitate to even mention it here), what looks broken on paper is not nearly such in practice. The issue is judging before testing. Though I don't blame people for gut reaction disallowing things in their game (it's their game and it takes work to vet a mechanic).

[Dr.Samurai]

By "at will teleportation" do you mean the bonus action misty step you only really use if you're low on hps or grappled that also costs 15 ft of movement and can't be done the same round you summon your echo? Or do you mean the long range teleportation that takes multiple rounds to set up and also costs 15 ft of movement?
I mean the "use 15ft of movement and switch places with your echo" ability. You can't use it while grappled, and I don't know why this type of mobility would only be used if you're low on HP...

But I do agree with the above poster, that a lot more planning and set up has to be present for echo teleport to work, or even be the best option in many cases. Like many abilities, (including silvery barbs, though I hesitate to even mention it here), what looks broken on paper is not nearly such in practice.

I disagree that it takes that much planning. On your turn you use a bonus action to summon the echo. You're going to do this literally every turn it's not already active because this is your gimmick. Then you can move it around wherever you want within range.

On your next turn, you move it some more and use your 15ft of movement to teleport. Not really that much planning or set up. It just has to already be present. If AoEs are flying around then it might not be, assuming it gets caught in a blast. But if AoEs aren't getting thrown around, then it means a monster targeted your echo and popped it, which is good for you. Otherwise, you get to teleport.

Obviously you're not going to be teleporting every single turn. But you have resourceless teleportation, which means that certain obstacles will become meaningless once you hit level 3.

We don't have to label it "broken". You can label it whatever you want. What you can't do is say that an echo knight's at-will teleportation will not impact how a DM can challenge them going forward. This is different from Misty Step because Misty Step is a 1/rest resource of uses up spell slots.

But I think I will leave it there. I feel like I'm being put in a position where I have to argue the echo knight is "OP" because it's either "fine" or "broken, kill it with fire".

[Sillybird99]

Yeah, your arguments lack ethos because of no play experience with it, and also some logos because they are theoretical not practical. I encourage you to play with it. Admittedly, my echo-knight is multiclassed so the echo is not my only bonus action option, and sometimes not the best one. So It's never the default option for me. But that should say something about the strength of the feature. It is good but only situationally optimal, and often other bonus actions are more optimal.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah, your arguments lack ethos because of no play experience with it, and also some logos because they are theoretical not practical.
Thank you for the philosophy lesson but it's actually not this complex :smallsmile:. I have already said I have seen it in play in our game, and I have already explained that it can be okay at some tables and not at others. I think the greater issue here is people not really listening and not really understanding.

The only way my argument fails is if it is true that this subclass will not be problematic at every single table. That's obviously not true, so it is on you and others to explain why you're arguing that position. I'm trying to explain why it could be problematic, as I know the group I played with back home for years, I know the group I play with now, I know the groups my friends play with currently, etc.

Bringing something up like Misty Step is ignoring the issue of resource. It is pretending that my argument is "teleportation is OP or problematic", when that is not my argument. It's pretending that you will always have the right spell prepared, and the slots to use it, which, again, is ignoring the issue of resource. It's pretending that there isn't a choice that has to be made to cast one spell over another that you have prepared.

In other words, it has nothing in common with echo knight's teleportation, even if that teleportation requires one turn of set up and 15ft of movement.

Similar to Sharpshooter, which has nothing in common with flying echo avatar+Sentinel.

Anyways, enjoy the subclass. I am glad it is perfectly fine at your table. I have nothing against the subclass. I was hoping to play one as a Deneith Sentinel Marshal that could summon his Guardian of Faith as a sustained guardian that can fight. But as I said, I thought it might get repetitive after a while.

[Psyren]

I enjoy the class a lot, but we definitely use the JC ruling.

[arnin77]

It’s a 30 foot bonus action teleportation. Seems kinda like Misty step. Saying it has nothing in common with it is pretending that the words aren’t the similar in the rules. Saying you can’t use it when grappled while Misty step you can kinds helps prove it doesn’t need as much resources. And I’d say action economy is also a resource.

[arnin77]

Also, if you think about it; Misty Step costs a bonus action while the Echo teleport costs two bonus actions (summon and teleport) both can be attained at level 3.. so I'd say they are relatively similar (although not casting a spell slot or prep - but it does limit the fighter since PAM, GWM and Sentinel are all affected by how you choose to play the echo and how many times you have to resummon it; not to mention that you want to probably put more ASI's into Con for the other level 3 feature and won't have room for those feats early on like a Vhuman Battlemaster might.)

The 7th level feature makes me think of dimension door... which is a 4th level spell 1 action 500 foot teleport and you can bring someone with you.

for you to get your echo out to 1000' it would cost 30 plus actions (+1 bonus action summon, +1 bonus action if you teleport) - so I wouldn't exactly call that resourceless. And if it survived.. since it can be attacked the whole time and destroyed, which would make you start the sequence all over again. and 3 minutes of the 10 minutes as well.

It is definitely a mess of a Subclass though; which is why I posted the FAQ earlier. I think anyone who wants to play it would be well advised to know the rules in order to help the DM and make the Echo less of an issue at the table.