[3.5] Moving a Layer of the Abyss

[GreatDane]

Byron, LaRoque, T'nkin, and Qwinrick - stay out!

I'm building a high-level (18-20) adventure. The PCs need to move a layer of the Abyss to the Material Plane. Obviously there are no specific rules in place for this, so I'm looking for ideas for cool adventure sites, complicated rituals the PCs can discover/create, etc. The PCs' two goals are to (a) partially redeem the layer and (b) use the energy of the layer to revitalize the dying land of their home on the Material Plane.

The players have already displaced the former demon lord, and vanquishing him for good will be part of the adventure for sure.

Minutiae: The layer in question is Occipitus, the 507th layer of the Abyss. We're playing a (heavily modified) version of Shackled City. One of the players has taken on the Sign of the Smoking Eye and is effectively the ruler of Occipitus, although they are not yet powerful enough to effect gross geographic transformations. The seeds of redemption already exist on Occipitus thanks to its partially-celestial nature.

[Tzardok]

Are you sure that it is a good idea to take something aligned to the Material and infuse it there? I personally would have gone to the Elemental and Energy Planes and stolen parts of that to revive dying lands before thinking of the Outer Planes.

[Telonius]

This would probably involve some heavy houseruling (and probably a homebrewed ritual). But there's a personal favorite Prestige Class of mine from Manual of the Planes, called "Planeshifter." (I used it in a Villainous Competition (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22032908&postcount=116) a few years back). One of its higher-level abilities is to do a planar area swap - it switches a small area from the material plane with an area of some other plane they designate. Normally this is relatively temporary; they switch back after several days. But (houseruling here) if there were some sort of high-powered magical ritual, it could be a lot bigger and permanent. So, quest arc: either become or find a 9th-level Planeshifter, then get some kind of MacGuffin to fuel the ritual.

[icefractal]

One idea that comes to mind is doing something to "link" various important locations in Occipitus with the corresponding locations on the prime material. The difficulty could be in the linking itself, or in guarding the linking mechanisms while the rest of the process is completed.

Related, taking steps to blend the material kingdom with Occipitus - creating permanent gateways between them, resculpting both to resemble the other more, encouraging people to travel between them frequently and consider both part of the same country, etc. Since the idea is to redeem Occipitus rather than make the material kingdom more abyssal, this probably involves more change to the former than the latter, but any non-bad changes you can make to the latter will help.

[Biggus]

The nearest thing I can think of to a canon example of planes being united is another layer of the abyss, Androlynne. Huge numbers of eladrin travel there to defend some eladrin children who are trapped there, and their presence has affected the plane itself: it's no longer entirely evil, in places it's quite beautiful in fact (FCI p.148).

So from this we know that the inhabitants of a plane change its nature. So possibly the ritual could involve (among other things) bringing sufficient numbers of material plane inhabitants to Occipitus, and perhaps also vice-versa, to bring them into attunement with each other. Or possibly part of the essence of each plane has to be taken to the other, a fragment of the world-soul or something?

[thorr-kan]

Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss has several entries you might mine:
1. Valllashan has a Prime Material plane has invaded the abyss at the behest of an epic Paladin and is converting that level. p107
2. Androlynne had cursed eladrin children trapped there, but constantly supported by the good powers. p148
3. Twelvetrees has 12 bound devas. p134

[GreatDane]

Thanks for the really excellent suggestions and source material, everyone. I'm going to run with the idea of "aligning" the two planes and then using a ritual/MacGuffin to fuel the actual merge. I can let the players be creative with how to make Occipitus more like the Material Plane, and stow the important pieces of the ritual (the "world-soul," Occipitus' original evil, etc.) in high-level dungeons. This is a delightful parallel to the campaign so far, which has involved the PCs discovering pieces of the villains' ritual to open a permanent portal to another plane by constructing a magical matrix (artifact) and fueling the ritual with a great source of power (a volcano).

[CIDE]

This honestly feels like a grand plan by agents of the Abyss to trick mortals into introducing a bunch of Abyss-related taint onto the material plane...

I like it.

[Eldan]

The biggest planar move I can think of is when the Harmonium, one of the Planescape factions, accidentally moved an entire layer of Arcadia to Mechanus. They tried to run a work camp on Arcadia, where they would bring prisoners to a good-aligned plane to work on their redemption in a regulated environment. Didn't work, to much evil, the entire layer fell. It's also how the Formians first got to Mechanus.

You might also look at how areas of the prime material plane become Domains of Dread in Ravenloft?

So, there's precedent, anyway.

[Khedrac]

This honestly feels like a grand plan by agents of the Abyss to trick mortals into introducing a bunch of Abyss-related taint onto the material plane...

I like it.

This, whatever they may intend, infusing part of the prime material with a portion of the Abyss will pretty surely doom at least that planet unless something is done to cut out the infection fairly quickly.

If using the Crystal Sphere cosmology I can see in years to come that entire sphere being a dangerous area where the space-dwellers fight the encroaching evil of the corrupted planet.

In the longer run, akin to the way Lolth drags words into her webs, the affected world will be dragged back into the Abyss, lost forever.

[icefractal]

That's why the "redeeming" it, I assume.
I'd say it's possible - a great strength of the Abyss is its infinite mutability, the fact that it can adapt to anything. But this is also a vulnerability if you can split one piece off from the whole - even its most fundamental nature is ultimately mutable.

[Biggus]

This, whatever they may intend, infusing part of the prime material with a portion of the Abyss will pretty surely doom at least that planet unless something is done to cut out the infection fairly quickly.

If using the Crystal Sphere cosmology I can see in years to come that entire sphere being a dangerous area where the space-dwellers fight the encroaching evil of the corrupted planet.

In the longer run, akin to the way Lolth drags words into her webs, the affected world will be dragged back into the Abyss, lost forever.

Androlynne has had its nature changed pretty dramatically by the presence of large numbers of celestials, so presumably to prevent this you'd need to get large numbers of good-aligned creatures to move there. Perhaps get religions of good deities to build major temples there, bring artifacts of good with them etc?

Could even be a hook for future adventures, hunting down the remaining pockets of corruption to ensure they don't spread.

[Tzardok]

The Eladrin of Androlynne have been there for milenia, I don't think that's a representative example. And even if you somehow manage to change the Abyssal matter from Evil to Good, you are still infusing a Material world with the essence of Chaos and Good. That pure Good isn't good for things not native to it can be seen most clearly at the example of Elysium, and that pure Chaos is a problem should be obvious.

[Melcar]

Evil doers are building temples all over faerun/toril, which serve as anchor points for similar points on the plane chosen. Some high epic planeshifter or other OP character/demon/devil prince together with some cult of followers are planning an epic ritual to superimpose said plane on the prime material, using the temples as anchor points...

In order to stop it, those anchor points must be destroyed... its a race against time, and each temple/anchor points are heavily guarded bu cultists/ summoned demons... Each temple has a boss/leader, who leads the ritual. He's obviously high level and optimized out the wazzuu! So, its not going to be an easy fight. Not only do they have to wade through all the guards/ minions, they also fight a high level ritual leader... while being under a ingame time constraint!

Each temple has a different theme/boss, so they can't keep using the same tactics, and there might be a certain order they need to clear said temples/anchor points in, in order to disrupt the ritual!

Obviously you should customize level and challenge accordingly, but it should not be easy fights!

[Telonius]

Thanks for the really excellent suggestions and source material, everyone. I'm going to run with the idea of "aligning" the two planes and then using a ritual/MacGuffin to fuel the actual merge. I can let the players be creative with how to make Occipitus more like the Material Plane, and stow the important pieces of the ritual (the "world-soul," Occipitus' original evil, etc.) in high-level dungeons. This is a delightful parallel to the campaign so far, which has involved the PCs discovering pieces of the villains' ritual to open a permanent portal to another plain by constructing a magical matrix (artifact) and fueling the ritual with a great source of power (a volcano).

Not sure how much you've modified the adventure path, but did any of the PCs get the Sign of the Smoking Eye? I'd think that could be a part of the ritual.

Or - in the path, the planar junction works halfway, and all the demodands start popping up. What if (instead of that), the PCs can foil the ritual, and (using the MacGuffin) substitutes Occipitus for Carceri? They could release all the Shackleborn, and put some magical items in the cages to substitute.

[loky1109]

What do you mean "moving"?

[Biggus]

The Eladrin of Androlynne have been there for milenia, I don't think that's a representative example.

Fair point, I agree it wouldn't happen instantly, the details of the process are left fairly vague though so we don't really know how long it takes to start working. Also, if you bring a powerful good-aligned MacGuffin there that would presumably work a lot faster than just a group of good individuals.


And even if you somehow manage to change the Abyssal matter from Evil to Good, you are still infusing a Material world with the essence of Chaos and Good. That pure Good isn't good for things not native to it can be seen most clearly at the example of Elysium, and that pure Chaos is a problem should be obvious.

My understanding of the material plane is that it contains all alignments (and other energies like the four elements) in approximate balance with each other, it's like the meeting place/result of all the other planes. So we're not trying to make it good-aligned, just neutralise the evil influence. You're right that it'd be chaotic too though, you might need to find a way to neutralise that also to fully integrate it.

The details are up to the DM in the end, I'm just throwing ideas out there for them to pick up or not as they like.

[TexAvery]

What about researching a new spell in the same vein as Genesis, only of course instead of creating a new demiplane it overwrites the material plane with a ctl-X, ctl-V'd part of the Abyss (or other non-material plane in the future/ other cases)? Moving an entire layer seems... questionable, given that the layers are infinite - it sounds like that could have unintended consequences. As does the entire plan, honestly, but a Genesis-mod is how I would have the players go about it.

[Tzardok]

My understanding of the material plane is that it contains all alignments (and other energies like the four elements) in approximate balance with each other, it's like the meeting place/result of all the other planes. So we're not trying to make it good-aligned, just neutralise the evil influence. You're right that it'd be chaotic too though, you might need to find a way to neutralise that also to fully integrate it.


The way I understand it the Material is the result of the mixture of the Inner Planes, and the Outer Planes are the result of the concepts arising of the Material. Ideas, souls and beliefs flow outwards from the Material, refining, seperating and purifying themselves into pure Good, Evil, Law and Chaos. Reversing that flow, well, introduces a higher concentrated and purer form than it ever happens on the Material and, essentially, poisons it.

[Telonius]

The way I understand it the Material is the result of the mixture of the Inner Planes, and the Outer Planes are the result of the concepts arising of the Material. Ideas, souls and beliefs flow outwards from the Material, refining, seperating and purifying themselves into pure Good, Evil, Law and Chaos. Reversing that flow, well, introduces a higher concentrated and purer form than it ever happens on the Material and, essentially, poisons it.

Occipitus is a weird case. It's a layer of the Abyss with celestial qualities, created when demons invaded Celestia. They ripped that part of the plane out and cast it into the Abyss. It's already tending to neutrality; long-term Celestial residents are falling, long-term Demon residents are getting closer to neutral, and the plane's ruler is Adimarchus, a fallen Planetar who's currently imprisoned in Carceri. He's completely nuts, and has two forms when you fight him, an angelic form and a demonic one. There are places in the plane that flicker back and forth between demonic and celestial in appearance. In this particular case, it would make some sense for it to average out to the Material Plane.

[ShurikVch]

Do you aware the Abyss is, in fact, alive and - to some extend - cognizant?
(When gods ripped out one of its layers - Abyss killed them all in a single hit. It's origin story of the Dreaming Gulf - layer #230)
How it would react to such development?

[Eldan]

Do you aware the Abyss is, in fact, alive and - to some extend - cognizant?
(When gods ripped out one of its layers - Abyss killed them all in a single hit. It's origin story of the Dreaming Gulf - layer #230)
How it would react to such development?

I mean, if the DM thinks it makes a better story if part of the Abyss can be moved, then it can.

[CIDE]

This, whatever they may intend, infusing part of the prime material with a portion of the Abyss will pretty surely doom at least that planet unless something is done to cut out the infection fairly quickly.

If using the Crystal Sphere cosmology I can see in years to come that entire sphere being a dangerous area where the space-dwellers fight the encroaching evil of the corrupted planet.

In the longer run, akin to the way Lolth drags words into her webs, the affected world will be dragged back into the Abyss, lost forever.

My paranoid player brain just keeps coming back to how much of a bad idea this is. So many better planes to attempt this with. We already have a ton of examples of layers of the abyss playing games with outsiders (to the abyss, not in creature type) that are on the layer in order to keep them there as long as possible to make sure they get tainted.


That's why the "redeeming" it, I assume.
I'd say it's possible - a great strength of the Abyss is its infinite mutability, the fact that it can adapt to anything. But this is also a vulnerability if you can split one piece off from the whole - even its most fundamental nature is ultimately mutable.

Ultimately the DM's call of course but I don't personally see it.


Occipitus is a weird case. It's a layer of the Abyss with celestial qualities, created when demons invaded Celestia. They ripped that part of the plane out and cast it into the Abyss. It's already tending to neutrality; long-term Celestial residents are falling, long-term Demon residents are getting closer to neutral, and the plane's ruler is Adimarchus, a fallen Planetar who's currently imprisoned in Carceri. He's completely nuts, and has two forms when you fight him, an angelic form and a demonic one. There are places in the plane that flicker back and forth between demonic and celestial in appearance. In this particular case, it would make some sense for it to average out to the Material Plane.

I absolutely love Shackled City.

[icefractal]

You certainly can have a cosmology where the Abyss is incredibly infectious, and transplanting anything from it dooms the world.

You can also have a cosmology where each of the sixteen spokes of the Great Wheel has one type of quiddity, and the prime material has all sixteen. Thus making it substantially more real than anything from an outer plane could ever be, even if those outer plane things are very powerful. Which would explain why demons/devils/angels/etc are fighting over the material plane and consider it important when they already have infinite planes of their own to work with.

The point is that it's a choice - but I often see the attitude that "Large-scale changes aside from protecting the status quo are inherently going to backfire, and that's the only plausible way for it to work, anything else is silly." Which I strongly disagree with.

[Balthanon]

This can't possibly go wrong. :)

I just skimmed the thread, but didn't see it mentioned, but one other area that might be worth looking at is some of the Eberron books-- they have planes that periodically manifest on the Material as one of the major features of the Cosmology, so there's probably something you could pull from there potentially.

You know, unrelated, but I kind of wonder why WotC never did another contest like the one that produced Eberron. That ended up as a fairly popular campaign setting and generated a fair amount of interest, seems like it might be worth trying again at some point.


My paranoid player brain just keeps coming back to how much of a bad idea this is. So many better planes to attempt this with. We already have a ton of examples of layers of the abyss playing games with outsiders (to the abyss, not in creature type) that are on the layer in order to keep them there as long as possible to make sure they get tainted.


I mean, to be fair... how many planes of existence are the PCs truly likely to get a chance to do this with period? I would assume you probably need to "own" the plane for it to even be feasible in the first place unless you can convince the ruler to do it. This one also apparently has the advantage of likely already being "loosely anchored" because it was torn out of Celestia-- that would certainly be a heavy factor in the players even having a shot at doing this pre-epic/early epic levels if I were running a game like this.

[GreatDane]

I'd nearly forgotten that the Abyss is both Chaotic and Evil. I guess the players will have to balance out both. Here's the "ritual" I've got so far:


Align Occipitus to its Material destination at five physical points. (I'll let the players be creative with this.)
Vanquish Occipitus' "original evil," a nexus of Evil energy that we've previously established on the plane. (I should probably turn this into a dungeon of some kind, a little pocket dimension of Evil.)
Balance out its Chaos by clarifying the issue of its ruler - one of the PCs rules it nominally, but its previous demon lord ruler still holds much sway.
Bring a shard of the "world soul" to Occipitus. I have no idea what the "world soul" really is yet, but I figure the Tarrasque probably swallowed a shard of it, because that sounds like an epic battle to have at this level.
The trigger for the ritual, once all the conditions above are met, will be the will of its ruler (the PC). The ritual will be fuelled by the energy of the plane, stripping the PC of her magical control/ownership of the land once the ritual is complete.

As for this whole plan being a bad idea - I'm not overly concerned with what happens after the grand finale of a campaign. Maybe it will be a fun campaign seed in the future. Maybe we'll never think about it again. Even if I were worried about cleaving to the official cosmology, this has been a plan in the making for quite a while, and I don't plan to pivot now.

[Eldan]

I'd absolutely use this as a campaign seed for the future.

Your next campaign could be 20 years later and deal with the slowly seeping abyssal corruption creeping across the landscape.

[Balthanon]

I'd nearly forgotten that the Abyss is both Chaotic and Evil. I guess the players will have to balance out both. Here's the "ritual" I've got so far:

[LIST]
Vanquish Occipitus' "original evil," a nexus of Evil energy that we've previously established on the plane. (I should probably turn this into a dungeon of some kind, a little pocket dimension of Evil.)


So... my suggestion? Have cleansing the "Evil" portion of the plane be a "hidden" quest they need to uncover somehow-- you mentioned earlier in the thread that the plane was ripped from Celestia and tending towards neutrality already. I assume that's been established in campaign, so if the players are assuming it's neutral, they probably need some clues that it is necessary to cleanse the evil from the Abyss in addition to the other steps.

If they miss the step, it still succeeds, but then they have more significant problems for a future campaign.

Otherwise, I like the general framework.

[ShurikVch]

Note: moving lands from Outer Planes to Material Plane is completely different than from Material to Outer Planes
I mean: even if you would clear alignment extremes somehow - it would go to the Outlands, not to Material Plane...

[rel]

The murder hobos will have to control a number of well defended nexuses of power, each a mighty fortress in it's own right, scattered across the planes.

They must then simultaneously enact the same dread ritual at all the nexuses while defending from the inevitable horde of do-gooders rushing in to stop their grand design.

Finally, with a major planar instability in progress and virtually every major player in the setting aware of what's about to go down, The party must fight their way through a gauntlet of everyone strong enough to try stopping them as they rush to the core of the planar instability to perform a final merging ritual.

Level 18 is leg work and setup as they gather information, track down esoteric ritual implements and components and disrupt the organisations that might try to stop them.

Level 19 is a near simultaneous raid on a number of high level fortresses and defense while the multi location ritual is set up.

Level 20 is your climatic boss rush through all the settings dramatis persona in an area where reality itself is breaking down.

[Arcane_Secrets]

One idea that comes to mind is doing something to "link" various important locations in Occipitus with the corresponding locations on the prime material. The difficulty could be in the linking itself, or in guarding the linking mechanisms while the rest of the process is completed.

Related, taking steps to blend the material kingdom with Occipitus - creating permanent gateways between them, resculpting both to resemble the other more, encouraging people to travel between them frequently and consider both part of the same country, etc. Since the idea is to redeem Occipitus rather than make the material kingdom more abyssal, this probably involves more change to the former than the latter, but any non-bad changes you can make to the latter will help.

It also seems like you'd need to close off any current connections the layer has to the rest of The Abyss so demons don't keep streaming in and tilting the layer to keep fitting in with its current environs.

[ShurikVch]

One more moment: Occipitus is not just a "part of Celestia in the Abyss", but also remains of a humongous demon.
It's why the layer is so "fleshy" - it's a corpse. The "skull" mountain in the center of the layer is the actual skull.
Since demons are made of solid Evil (and Chaos) - you should put extra efforts to purify Occipitus...