Kensei Archer Build Help

[Psyren]

Happy Monkday! :smalltongue:

I've had this idea in my head for a longbow-using archer that doesn't use a pet. Yes, hand crossbows are great and all thanks to CBE, but I have a soft spot for the trusty longbow.

With XGtE and TCoE, the Kensei Monk can designate their longbow as a monk weapon - while this won't let them flurry with it, it does enable an interesting combo in tier 2 I've been wanting to try, which I believe will get them a fairly decent archery sequence in most combat rounds.

1) Attack twice
2a) If any attacks hit, use Deft Strike (1-2 ki points) to add martial arts die to damage
2b) If both attacks miss, instead use Focused Aim (1-3 ki points) to try and make one or more of the attacks hit.
3) Spending at least one ki on either (2a) or (2b) triggers Ki-Fueled Attack, getting you a bonus action longbow shot as it is a monk weapon thanks to Kensei.

This gets you three longbow attacks per round as early as 6th level, all of which get Dex to attack and damage, and possibly your martial arts die added to the longbow damage as well if you have the ki to spare. And since I'm not in melee, the monk's general squishiness feels like it will be less of a factor.

At level 11, you get to make your longbow a +3 weapon (Sharpen The Blade) at the cost of 3 ki and your first KFA that combat. This works even on a magic bow as long as it has no attack and damage bonus, e.g. a Longbow of Warning, Vicious Longbow or even something like an Oathbow would all be legal targets. While these bonuses are great for DPR, the primary benefit is offsetting the penalty to Sharpshooter (this plus Archery style nullifies the -5 penalty completely), letting your DPR spike even higher against enemies that aren't hard to hit.

For fights that aren't as important, or where you've run out of ki, you can use your bonus action on Kensei Shot instead - not ideal as it's only a +2d4 bonus total across the two attacks, but better than nothing.

Questions I was looking for help with:

1) Does the combo work the way I think it does (getting three attacks per round, or two with a small bonus each if you're not spending ki)?

2) Other than Sharpshooter, what feats should I be targeting? (Ideally I want Archery Style in here somewhere.)

3) What races would fit with this? Aarakocra seems ideal since I can easily take flight due to being unarmored, and with Sharpshooter I can rain down arrows at max range (outdoors anyway). There's also synergy with monk in that if my flight is somehow stalled out, I can use Slow Fall to mitigate or even nullify any falling damage. But I'm open to others, including Variant Human or Custom Lineage.

4) What multiclassing or dips should I consider? Ideally I want as much monk as possible for the ki points to fuel this (and to not delay Sharpen The Blade), and Diamond Soul would be great since I've gotten that far, but I'm not seeing a whole lot in Monk or Kensei after 14th to make sticking with it seem like the best option beyond "more ki." So builds that include 14 levels of monk would be preferred, but I'm open to fewer as long as the core is preserved depending on the benefit.

5) Any overall thoughts on the build's martial effectiveness given the above. Yes, "Just play a Battlemaster!" is a valid answer, as much as that would make me grumble. :smallbiggrin:

[Khrysaes]

I would suggest either fighter battlemaster milticlass as you can add the superiority dice to the damage

Rogue would work as well and allow you to save ki for dashing or disengaging. Sneak attack only works at 30ft range but wouldnt hurt.

Genie warlock dao would allow you to combine darkness+devil’s sight to give yourself advantage and impose disadvantage. Dao adds bludgeoning damage to one hit per roimd and can be combined with the crusher feat to allow you to force movement with a bow shot.

[stoutstien]

It's a solid option. It deals less damage than most archers but it it has some different tools for defense/mobility with an ace up the sleeve with being a strong frontliner when you need it with no real investment. Kensei shot is also a good filler for sitting back and dealing with low pressure enemies with no cost.

The real question is when to dip for Archer and fighter or ranger. Both have their pros and cons and the timing of the dip is also hard to nail down. I'd probably pick ranger just for the utility and skill support but objectively it's close.

Race really doesn't matter IMO past getting the stat where you need them and not being small but with monk damage die scaling short bows catch up. I'd probably go odd like the new dragonborns for some AoE options and resistance or bugbear just because I like them.

[Amechra]

I'd be careful about dipping to early here — this build really wants you to hit Monk 5 at minimum as soon as possible, with Monk 6 being ideal. If you grab Fighting Initiate (Archery) though VHuman/CLineage, I'd honestly say that you could beeline for Monk 14 without any heartaches.

(As a side note: I'm really annoyed that I finally got my group to do a one-shot at a high enough level that I could actually play a Kensei Archer... and someone else called dibs on Kensei immediately. Some day...)

EDIT:


It deals less damage than most archers

While this is true, I think an important caveat is that the Kensei Archer has more endurance than most traditional archer builds. Sure, an Elven Accuracy-abusing Samurai is going to smoke you damage-wise... for three turns every short rest. Meanwhile, unless you wander into melee range, a ranged Kensei legitimately doesn't have much use for ki abilities that don't trigger their third attack.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'll stick to qu. 4:
It's not too creative, but Gloomstalker 3. Hunter's Mark. Extra Attack on round 1 with bonus damage. Initiative Bonus. Fighting Style. Umbral Sight is a nice little goodie as well.

[Dork_Forge]

While this is true, I think an important caveat is that the Kensei Archer has more endurance than most traditional archer builds. Sure, an Elven Accuracy-abusing Samurai is going to smoke you damage-wise... for three turns every short rest. Meanwhile, unless you wander into melee range, a ranged Kensei legitimately doesn't have much use for ki abilities that don't trigger their third attack.

Not even that much, Fighting Spirit is LR recharge and once per initiative if you have none at 10th.

The only archer that really competes is the Battlemaster because of the sheer number of SD they get per short rest (and can potentially have), but they're still per attack and you can easily add that on to a Kensei build if you want in a few ways. The same can't be said of the reverse though.

[Omni-Centrist]

Here is a Link to a Level 13 Kensei build I made:
ddb.ac/characters/63829555/wDPkVp

It's a super solid mutliclass that I think actual works better if you can manage to get a 13 in either Int or Cha to multiclass in War Wizard for shield + the reaction bonuses, or in Divine Soul for Bless, or even better in Abberant mind for the extra spells.

I really like the sound of Abberant Mind/Divine Soul/War Wizard 8, Monk 8, Gloomstalker 4.

[Amechra]

Not even that much, Fighting Spirit is LR recharge and once per initiative if you have none at 10th.

The only archer that really competes is the Battlemaster because of the sheer number of SD they get per short rest (and can potentially have), but they're still per attack and you can easily add that on to a Kensei build if you want in a few ways. The same can't be said of the reverse though.

Ah, mea culpa — I misremembered Fighting Spirit as a short-rest resource. That makes things look even better for Team Special K.

[Khrysaes]

I mean, if you can convince your DM to let you, and you want MONK 14,
I would recommend either:
Monk 16/Battlemaster 4
Monk 14/Battlemaster 4/Ranger 2

Hunter's mark and Hex work better when you have more attacks. Monks and fighters would benefit the most out of them because of their extra attacks, otherwise I think bless is better. I think someone did math to prove it somewhere.

In fact, Peace Cleric 2/Battlemaster 4 may be a good option because of the 2d4 to all attacks and saves you can get from Bless + the peace cleric bond.

Edit: I realized something. You can't use longbow as a dedicated weapon because it has the heavy property.

Notably, you can use a firearm.

Edit Edit:
If using Tashas customized origins, I would pick Eladrin from Mordenkainen's tome of foes, a short rest teleport may be life saving to you.

Otherwise, I would pick Wood Elf or Ghostwise halfling because of the synergistic ability scores.

Edit edit edit:
I would say Human or Custom Lineage for the feat may actually be best.
You may also want 14 Monk/6 Battlemaster for the feat.
Starting 17 Dex/16 Wis/14 con.
Feats I would suggest, not in this specific order, and feel free to swap them out, my goal was 20 dex and wis, SS and Piercer
If Human/Custom
1 Human Feat: Piercer +1 dex
4 monk: Gift of the Gem Dragon +1 Wis
8 monk: Fey Touched +1 wis
12 monk: +2 Wis/Dex as needed
4 fighter(or other class): Sharpshooter
6 fighter: +2 Dex/wis as needed

If Elf(wood or eladrin)
4 monk: Elven Accuracy +1 dex OR wis.
8 monk: Piercer +1 dex
12 monk: Sharpshooter
4 fighter(or other class): +2 Wis/Dex as needed
6 fighter: +2 Wis/Dex as needed

Other options include
Gunner(if using a gun) +1 dex /
Telekinetic +1 wis
Telepathic +1 wis
Shadow touched +1 wis

[Pildion]

Happy Monkday! :smalltongue:

Questions I was looking for help with:

1) Does the combo work the way I think it does (getting three attacks per round, or two with a small bonus each if you're not spending ki)?

2) Other than Sharpshooter, what feats should I be targeting? (Ideally I want Archery Style in here somewhere.)

3) What races would fit with this? Aarakocra seems ideal since I can easily take flight due to being unarmored, and with Sharpshooter I can rain down arrows at max range (outdoors anyway). There's also synergy with monk in that if my flight is somehow stalled out, I can use Slow Fall to mitigate or even nullify any falling damage. But I'm open to others, including Variant Human or Custom Lineage.

4) What multiclassing or dips should I consider? Ideally I want as much monk as possible for the ki points to fuel this (and to not delay Sharpen The Blade), and Diamond Soul would be great since I've gotten that far, but I'm not seeing a whole lot in Monk or Kensei after 14th to make sticking with it seem like the best option beyond "more ki." So builds that include 14 levels of monk would be preferred, but I'm open to fewer as long as the core is preserved depending on the benefit.

5) Any overall thoughts on the build's martial effectiveness given the above. Yes, "Just play a Battlemaster!" is a valid answer, as much as that would make me grumble. :smallbiggrin:

Well, I think that the 17th class feature Unerring Accuracy is really good, for someone sharpshooting so I'm not sure I would multiclass past a 1 level dip in fighter for the archery fighting style.

If you need a explorer in the group, or sneaking rouge like character then I'd go with Monk6>Gloom Stalker4>Monk10.

Otherwise I'd just go Fighter1>Monk19.

[MrStabby]

So for multiclassing... I would say to be careful. You will be very Ki hungry an will be waning to burn it on most rounds so getting a deep pool quickly will be important.

My preference for multiclassing would probably be swarmkeeper ranger (3 levels). The extra control you get from being able to move enemies 15ft is acually pretty neat and the ability to be moved 5ft by your swarm to get out of melee combat will also be valuable. Spells are good and if you can use Tasha's option the core ranger features are pretty good as well. The extra damage you can sack up with multiple d6s will all add up.

[Omni-Centrist]

So for multiclassing... I would say to be careful. You will be very Ki hungry an will be waning to burn it on most rounds so getting a deep pool quickly will be important.

My preference for multiclassing would probably be swarmkeeper ranger (3 levels). The extra control you get from being able to move enemies 15ft is actually pretty neat and the ability to be moved 5ft by your swarm to get out of melee combat will also be valuable. Spells are good and if you can use Tasha's option the core ranger features are pretty good as well. The extra damage you can sack up with multiple d6s will all add up.

The best part about a Divine Soul/War Cleric 8 Level dip is the access to Bless to save on the Ki costs/make BA Sharpshooter shots more often. I like the Divine Soul dip if Applicable because you can quicken cast Bless and get your shots off with an average +3 per shot, on top of the other excellent ways to boost survivability and damage.

Kensei Monk beyond 8 is pretty good, but I think a Gloomstalker 4/Kensei 8 would probably benefit more from a full caster dip, especially one focused on combat prowess.

[Keravath]

...
Rogue would work as well and allow you to save ki for dashing or disengaging. Sneak attack only works at 30ft range but wouldnt hurt.
...


Just for anyone else reading. I don't think there is any range limitation on sneak attack. This sounds like a house rule or a character that used a hand crossbow without the crossbow expert feat which has a normal range of 30' .. for too long :)

[Khrysaes]

Just for anyone else reading. I don't think there is any range limitation on sneak attack. This sounds like a house rule or a character that used a hand crossbow without the crossbow expert feat which has a normal range of 30' .. for too long :)

You're right. I probably conflated 3rd edition with 5th.

[Amechra]

Edit: I realized something. You can't use longbow as a dedicated weapon because it has the heavy property.

Kensei get longbows as monk weapons, so you don't have to rely on Dedicated Weapon. That, along with Deft Strike, is one of the big reasons why you pick Kensei for this.

[Psyren]

Thank you all, this has been extremely helpful for me :smallsmile:

I particularly appreciate the feat suggestions as I am definitely not versed in those in 5e yet, especially the half-feats. Believe it or not, I'd completely forgotten Elven Accuracy, which does give a bit of a bump to the Wood Elf and Customized Eladrin suggestions. (Assuming +2 Dex/+1 Wis, my PB ended up being STR 8, DEX 17, CON 14, WIS 16, INT 10, CHA 8.) I also was not aware of Piercer, but that admittedly doesn't do a whole lot. I'd probably go +1/+1 for an ASI and then go for a Wis half-feat instead, like the suggested Fey-Touched.

I'm also open to Background suggestions. Far Traveler was my first choice and feels like a good fit (Insight/Perception, and my character would get gawked at a lot, which seems fitting for a bird guy or otherworldly elf with a big bow if I go those routes.) From Monk I grabbed Acrobatics and Stealth. But again, definitely interested in other suggestions and proficiency combinations.



Edit: I realized something. You can't use longbow as a dedicated weapon because it has the heavy property.

Just to address this point off the bat - this is true for the Tasha's dedicated weapon, but the Kensei subclass overrides that restriction. They (and only they, currently) can indeed use longbows as monk weapons.

I could pick up a Shortbow as another dedicated ranged weapon however, using the Tasha's technique, just in case we come across a magical shortbow before finding a longbow that I can make use of. Slightly less damage and range (though Sharpshooter makes the latter not matter much in most combats), but the core build combo works with it.

For the melee Kensei weapon I was considering a whip for the reach, but scimitar and quarterstaff are fine too.


I would suggest either fighter battlemaster multiclass as you can add the superiority dice to the damage.

Indeed. I also love the synergy here of getting my Superiority Dice, Action Surge and Ki back on each short rest. (And Second Wind... though at best that will just save me a bit of ki on Quickened Healing between rests.)

If I went BM, which three maneuvers would you recommend? I was thinking Precision Attack for even better Sharpshooting, Maneuvering Attack so I can reposition allies (either sliding melee between me and the foe, or getting fellow ranged out of melee safely,) and Ambush for both Stealth and Initiative bonuses, but I'm open to others. Tactical Assessment maybe? Say, does Precision Attack stack with Focused Aim?


Genie warlock dao would allow you to combine darkness+devil’s sight to give yourself advantage and impose disadvantage. Dao adds bludgeoning damage to one hit per roimd and can be combined with the crusher feat to allow you to force movement with a bow shot.

As cool as this would be, I can't afford the Cha (nor does increasing it fit this monk's concept) but I'll file the idea away for a future build. Maybe a Valor Bard archer...


It's a solid option. It deals less damage than most archers but it it has some different tools for defense/mobility with an ace up the sleeve with being a strong frontliner when you need it with no real investment. Kensei shot is also a good filler for sitting back and dealing with low pressure enemies with no cost.

Agreed with all this. Will I outdamage a Beastmaster or Battlemaster, probably not, but I think I can beat the baseline - and if magic bows are hard to come by in a campaign then I have a unique edge. And if something gets close then I can kick it in the face :smallbiggrin:

Kensei Shot is okay filler at low levels, which is when I need it most due to ki starvation. It falls off hard later but by then I should have enough ki to last between rests.


The real question is when to dip for Archer and fighter or ranger. Both have their pros and cons and the timing of the dip is also hard to nail down. I'd probably pick ranger just for the utility and skill support but objectively it's close.

This is my main issue, figuring out when to multiclass and for how long.

I definitely want to start with monk, because dipping it later gets me absolutely nothing proficiency-wise. Neither does Fighter of course, but Fighter is still a strong dip despite that.
I'll look into the Ranger and Rogue benefits in greater detail.


Rogue would work as well and allow you to save ki for dashing or disengaging. Sneak attack only works at 30ft range but wouldnt hurt.


Just for anyone else reading. I don't think there is any range limitation on sneak attack. This sounds like a house rule or a character that used a hand crossbow without the crossbow expert feat which has a normal range of 30' .. for too long :)

This is great to realize as I too had thought there was a range limit on sneak attack in this edition. Thank you :smallsmile:

@ Omni/Stabby - I will take a look at spellcaster dips though honestly, I'm okay with this build being pure martial even if it means I'm more of a one-trick pony.

@ Pildion - Unerring Accuracy isn't bad, but rerolling a single attack with no extra bonus definitely feels underwhelming, especially when I've got Focused Aim. 3 more ki would be nice though.


Thanks again all and I'll see about posting different versions of the build with some of these suggestions later on if someone else doesn't beat me to it :smallcool:

[Khrysaes]

This is my main issue, figuring out when to multiclass and for how long.

I definitely want to start with monk, because dipping it later gets me absolutely nothing proficiency-wise. Neither does Fighter of course, but Fighter is still a strong dip despite that.
I'll look into the Ranger and Rogue benefits in greater detail.


Depends on what save and skills you want, though you can arguably just swap the skills from your background.

Dex + str. Start monk or ranger
Con+str. Start fighter.

As for what level to take multiclasses? I guess it depends on what you want when?

You can also take 2 ranger/4 fighter (or 3/3 if you want the subclass
Features) and get archery And superior technique fighting styles for an extra maneuver. And completely unlikely, but one of the first UA had the spell leas ranger get superiority dice and maneuvers at level 2.

[stoutstien]

The real question is is there going to be some way the party can feed you advantage regularly. If the answer to that is yes I'd probably go fighter and take it early. If no then I'd probably lean towards cleric or ranger and take it in the middle of tier 2 or start of tier 3.

[Amechra]

I'd definitely hold off on multiclassing until after 6th level, since that is quite literally the earliest level where you can actually consistently pull off the combo. If you aren't picking up Sharpshooter through your race, however, I'd honestly wait until Monk 8 before I started looking around, since you really don't want to delay getting to Dex 18.

Also, an important note for this kind of build — a ranged Kensei can actually get away with leaving their Wisdom at 14 or so, unlike most Monks. You can afford a lower AC as an archer, you can't use Stunning Strike at range, and the Kensei subclass doesn't add any other uses for Wisdom. Just something to keep in mind.

...

On the topic of Elven Accuracy... I'd honestly give it a pass unless you're already pumped to play an Elf. You don't have any built-in ways to generate advantage on your attacks, so you'd be relying on your allies setting you up for it to do anything.

[Psyren]

Powering to Monk 8 before multiclassing is a solid suggestion.



Also, an important note for this kind of build — a ranged Kensei can actually get away with leaving their Wisdom at 14 or so, unlike most Monks. You can afford a lower AC as an archer, you can't use Stunning Strike at range, and the Kensei subclass doesn't add any other uses for Wisdom. Just something to keep in mind.


I agree, but... it's not like I have anywhere else to put the points I'd save by dropping Wis. Dex is already 15, Con is already 14, and I definitely don't need any Str, Int or Cha, making Wis be 15 (16 with the +1) so the other 15 being Wis makes sense.

I could drop Wis to 14 to boost Cha or Int for a multiclass, like the daolock suggested earlier. That would leave me with a 12 in Cha, which my +1 from race could boost to the necessary 13. So there's that.


The real question is is there going to be some way the party can feed you advantage regularly. If the answer to that is yes I'd probably go fighter and take it early. If no then I'd probably lean towards cleric or ranger and take it in the middle of tier 2 or start of tier 3.



On the topic of Elven Accuracy... I'd honestly give it a pass unless you're already pumped to play an Elf. You don't have any built-in ways to generate advantage on your attacks, so you'd be relying on your allies setting you up for it to do anything.

Good point on advantage. I suspect one of the easier ways would be Gloomstalker + fighting in the dark, which would also nab Archery style for me - but you're right, that's not enough to justify Elf on its own.

[Khrysaes]

Powering to Monk 8 before multiclassing is a solid suggestion.

snip

Good point on advantage. I suspect one of the easier ways would be Gloomstalker + fighting in the dark, which would also nab Archery style for me - but you're right, that's not enough to justify Elf on its own.

Again, at worst I think starting 1 fighter if you want to start with con instead of dex saves is viable. only pushing the combo off 1 level, you also get the +2 to hit, and proficiency in all martial weapons which can help with dedicated weapon until you get kensei.

However,
if you do go v.human/custom, you effectively gain 2 feats as you can't take elven accuracy which may feel like a feat tax/obligation

Edit:
Rogue 3 with Tasha's can also get you Steady aim to generate your own advantage.

[Psyren]

Again, at worst I think starting 1 fighter if you want to start with con instead of dex saves is viable. only pushing the combo off 1 level, you also get the +2 to hit, and proficiency in all martial weapons which can help with dedicated weapon until you get kensei.

The con save is absolutely viable, thanks for suggesting it :smallsmile:

The proficiency thing unfortunately wouldn't quite work - monks already get shortbow prof without needing fighter, and only Kensei can make longbow a monk weapon (Tasha's Dedicated Weapon, which comes online earlier, disallows it.)


Edit:
Rogue 3 with Tasha's can also get you Steady aim to generate your own advantage.

Ooh I forgot Steady Aim! One more point in Rogue's favor.

Actually maybe I'll do a Rogue/Battlemaster archer build later :smallbiggrin:

[Khrysaes]

The con save is absolutely viable, thanks for suggesting it :smallsmile:

The proficiency thing unfortunately wouldn't quite work - monks already get shortbow prof without needing fighter, and only Kensei can make longbow a monk weapon (Tasha's Dedicated Weapon, which comes online earlier, disallows it.)



Ooh I forgot Steady Aim! One more point in Rogue's favor.

Actually maybe I'll do a Rogue/Battlemaster archer build later :smallbiggrin:

There is more than just a longbow that the monk can use. Fighter gives proficiency in all weapons, monk doesnt. So bt taking fighter 1, then monk you fan use dedicated weapons on more than just the shortbow, so long as they arent heavy or special. Like longsword, or something. You dont have to limit yourself to just a ranged weapon, especially at low levels.

[Amechra]

The thing about dipping into Fighter for the expanded Dedicated Weapon choices is that you are, at best, bumping your damage die by one step for a single level (especially since going from 2nd to 3rd level is usually a matter of a few sessions). I'm not sure if that's worth delaying The Trick by a level, especially when that's what you're building towards anyways.

Psyren, is the table you're going to be playing at using the ASI customization rules from Tasha's? Because that would open up some extra racial options — Satyr springs to mind (heh), and Swiftstride Shifter would make you even better at staying out of melee.

...

Also, if you know you're going to get to Tier 3, drop some heavy hints that you want an Oathbow. Sharpen the Blade doesn't specify that the weapon has to be non-magical, so you can use it to go into big fights with a +3 Oathbow.

[Omni-Centrist]

@ Omni/Stabby - I will take a look at spellcaster dips though honestly, I'm okay with this build being pure martial even if it means I'm more of a one-trick pony.

:

I feel like, Especially for a Sharpshooting Monk, War Cleric gives you a lot of stuff that works super well and you already have the stats to make it work. You get spellcasting, and the Weapon Related Channel Divinities. I figured Ranger would be a sure dip just because Gloomstalker gives you SO much goodies that it's impossible to pass up on. With a Gloomstalker 4/Kensei 6 build, you have Dex+Wis to initiative, an free weapon attack on your first turn, and an extra d8 damage on that extra attack to put your average first turn damage somewhere around 70 on the low end, 90+ on the high end (5d8+d6+60).

[Psyren]

There is more than just a longbow that the monk can use. Fighter gives proficiency in all weapons, monk doesnt. So bt taking fighter 1, then monk you fan use dedicated weapons on more than just the shortbow, so long as they arent heavy or special. Like longsword, or something. You dont have to limit yourself to just a ranged weapon, especially at low levels.

You know, I keep forgetting that monk weapons don't need the finesse property to use Dex instead of Str :smalltongue:
Longsword would indeed be thematic for this build when range isn't feasible, he'd be a Kensei after all.


The thing about dipping into Fighter for the expanded Dedicated Weapon choices is that you are, at best, bumping your damage die by one step for a single level (especially since going from 2nd to 3rd level is usually a matter of a few sessions). I'm not sure if that's worth delaying The Trick by a level, especially when that's what you're building towards anyways.

Yeah I'm inclined to agree - based on the feedback received I think I'll be making a beeline for Monk 6 before multiclassing, and if I'm doing that I might as well stick around for Monk 8, possibly grabbing Sharpshooter then.


Psyren, is the table you're going to be playing at using the ASI customization rules from Tasha's? Because that would open up some extra racial options — Satyr springs to mind (heh), and Swiftstride Shifter would make you even better at staying out of melee.

Yes, options like these are definitely on the table. That Shifter suggestion looks excellent, especially since it's about to not be setting-specific :smallsmile:



Also, if you know you're going to get to Tier 3, drop some heavy hints that you want an Oathbow. Sharpen the Blade doesn't specify that the weapon has to be non-magical, so you can use it to go into big fights with a +3 Oathbow.

Oh I'm aware, I mentioned it in the "Later Levels" spoiler in the OP :smallbiggrin: STB works with any magical bow that doesn't provide a bonus to attacks and damage, so Oathbow is fair game!


I feel like, Especially for a Sharpshooting Monk, War Cleric gives you a lot of stuff that works super well and you already have the stats to make it work. You get spellcasting, and the Weapon Related Channel Divinities. I figured Ranger would be a sure dip just because Gloomstalker gives you SO much goodies that it's impossible to pass up on. With a Gloomstalker 4/Kensei 6 build, you have Dex+Wis to initiative, an free weapon attack on your first turn, and an extra d8 damage on that extra attack to put your average first turn damage somewhere around 70 on the low end, 90+ on the high end (5d8+d6+60).

Yes, I'm definitely looking at Ranger and Gloomstalker is at the top of that list; they get so much early on! (To be clear, when I say "pure martial" I do include Ranger and Paladin in that.)

[Amechra]

That teaches me to read. :p

That being said, I dunno if I like Gloomstalker as a Ranger subclass for this kind of build. I think I'd prefer something like Swarmkeeper (which helps you rearrange the battlefield) or Fey Wanderer (which opens you up to being a back-up party face, which is kinda rare for a Monk, and makes you a little better at cleaning up mooks). I think that some of that reluctance is due to my personal distaste for how overtuned Gloomstalker is, though, so take that with a grain of salt.

I guess it really depends on how long your fights tend to be, though — Gloomstalker definitely loses some of its shine at tables where fights often drag on.

EDIT: Some quick napkin math suggests that Swarmkeeper matches Gloomstalker's total damage at around round 3 if you aren't using Sharpshooter, and round 5 if you are.

[Khrysaes]

The thing about dipping into Fighter for the expanded Dedicated Weapon choices is that you are, at best, bumping your damage die by one step for a single level (especially since going from 2nd to 3rd level is usually a matter of a few sessions). I'm not sure if that's worth delaying The Trick by a level, especially when that's what you're building towards.


It isn't just the expanded weapon choices, but also CON save proficiency and the fighting style. That said, it is a matter of preference, starting monk is still fine. In fact, with the Ylkwa there is likely no difference in damage. Although I guess a monk can use a versatile weapon for 1d10 damage. Again at most +2 average.

[Ratatoskir]

I fell backwards into playing a ranged kensei in our Mad Mage campaign. It's definitely feels strong so far (though we only just hit level 6 tonight), being able to switch between hitting something big and scary for 30-60 damage or pulling out the longsword and killing 3-4 mooks in a turn. My character is a kobold and has been loving the easy access to advantage for sharpshooter, but if you can't always expect to be underground for your fights it's a little more risky to play a race with sunlight sensitivity. Currently planning on taking 3 levels of ranger to pick up more skills+archery style+a subclass feature before diving down the rest of my monk levels.

Since you can replace damage dice with your martial arts die (not to mention sharpshooter giving you a big damage boost), longbow isn't super important in my opinion. If you're medium size it's definitely worth picking as a kensei weapon, but my kobold has been running around with a sling and not particularily missing the ~1 extra point of damage.

[Psyren]

Since I'm off work today, I've been fooling around with the DPR calculations for this build, including when to use or not use Sharpshooter. (Special thanks to LudicSavant and AureusFulgen's amazing DPR calculator (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nzdusdvJbPLtxcN4Mbqq0i8D5MdwdZqJEbAQ6knqeKM/edit?usp=sharing) for doing the heavy lifting :smallsmile:) The results were interesting (~29 DPR at level 10, assuming a 17 AC foe using the DMG 274 guidelines), but I'll have to plug in other archer builds to see how this build is really doing. I know for instance that Beastmaster DPR will demolish this at 11+ if not earlier, and that's okay as long as it's not bottom of the barrel.)


It isn't just the expanded weapon choices, but also CON save proficiency and the fighting style. That said, it is a matter of preference, starting monk is still fine. In fact, with the Ylkwa there is likely no difference in damage. Although I guess a monk can use a versatile weapon for 1d10 damage. Again at most +2 average.

I like the idea of starting as monk and powering through to 8 to get to the combo + SS as soon as possible. While Con saves are nice, I ultimately think Dex saves will matter more for an archer. I'll get Con save proficiency along with the rest of them at monk 14 anyway.)

..Speaking of which, I've decided the first iteration of the build will forego Ranger entirely and be a Kensei 14 Battlemaster 6. In addition to the benefits above, that nets me two ASIs at the highest levels (18 and 20) instead of just one, which feels pretty elegant. I'll redo it later with Ranger instead, and play around with various mixtures of the two. I particularly like Amechra's Swarmkeeper suggestion as I could flavor the swarm as a cloud of small avians like swallows or hummingbirds, which would fit with my favored if less optimal race for this, Aarakocra.


I fell backwards into playing a ranged kensei in our Mad Mage campaign. It's definitely feels strong so far (though we only just hit level 6 tonight), being able to switch between hitting something big and scary for 30-60 damage or pulling out the longsword and killing 3-4 mooks in a turn. My character is a kobold and has been loving the easy access to advantage for sharpshooter, but if you can't always expect to be underground for your fights it's a little more risky to play a race with sunlight sensitivity. Currently planning on taking 3 levels of ranger to pick up more skills+archery style+a subclass feature before diving down the rest of my monk levels.

You may not want to get too attached to that kobold if your DM decides to run with the MotM version :smalltongue:


Since you can replace damage dice with your martial arts die (not to mention sharpshooter giving you a big damage boost), longbow isn't super important in my opinion. If you're medium size it's definitely worth picking as a kensei weapon, but my kobold has been running around with a sling and not particularily missing the ~1 extra point of damage.

I agree it's not a dramatic boost over shortbow, but the martial arts die doesn't catch up to longbow until 11th level and doesn't surpass it until 17th level, so it does help. Plus I just love the visual!

Depending on the fight, range may also be a factor, specifically the longbow having a short range nearly 3x that of the shortbow. It won't matter once sharpshooter comes online, but currently I'm aiming for between 8th-10th level for that.