Everyone has every spell. Survive.

[SangoProduction]

Scenario: By some unknown means, everyone, no matter their race, creed, or ideology (Let alone mental or physical capacity) have access to, and ability to cast, every single spell from every single splat book.
No other alteration to the population happens. Good people are still Good. But still, make what you will of it.

Goal: How long can you survive? How much of the world will you be able to keep safe?

[Gruftzwerg]

I think the best analogy would be a trading card game. Having all cards doesn't make you a good player. Sure, everybody has access to the same resources, but the on who uses em "most wisely" wins.

In 3.5 "most wisely" means, those that exploit the potential of spells to their fullest. Those who are able to play a T1 to their full strength. Those that find the the best loopholes. Basically this imho.
The rest of the population are noobs and thus cannon fodder.

[SangoProduction]

I think the best analogy would be a trading card game. Having all cards doesn't make you a good player. Sure, everybody has access to the same resources, but the on who uses em "most wisely" wins.

In 3.5 "most wisely" means, those that exploit the potential of spells to their fullest. Those who are able to play a T1 to their full strength. Those that find the the best loopholes. Basically this imho.
The rest of the population are noobs and thus cannon fodder.

Never said they play to T1 strength. But everyone, from the local jester to the evil lord to that weird guy down the street, does have access to every spell.
Make of that situation what you will.

[Jervis]

The first to figure it out and say “I wish I was the only one able to cast magic” wins. Yeah I know wish normally can’t do that but this presumably includes epic magic, including a theoretical epic wish.

[Arael666]

For clarification, how often everyone can cast spells? Is it every spell at will? Every spell once? One spell a day and people can choose whatever spell? Do people get spell slots as a 20th lvl "insert casting class here" and can fill those slots with whatever spell they want? Are epic spells available?

[Arael666]

The first to figure it out and say “I wish I was the only one able to cast magic” wins. Yeah I know wish normally can’t do that but this presumably includes epic magic, including a theoretical epic wish.

Since that falls into "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous." we should probably avoid that discussion.

[Melcar]

I just start gating in zodars for free wishes, then polymoph to become sarrukh and go to town! Within a few days, I'm Pun Pun! But then again, so is everyone else... so whos the must pun pun of all the pun puns!? Who knows right? All I know is that everyone is Pun Pun!

[Jervis]

I just start gating in zodars for free wishes, then polymoph to become sarrukh and go to town! Within a few days, I'm Pun Pun! But then again, so is everyone else... so whos the must pun pun of all the pun puns!? Who knows right? All I know is that everyone is Pun Pun!

Just alter yourself to give yourself Alter Reality and stop anyone that hasn’t figured it out yet.

[Asmotherion]

Step 1: Gather everyone you care about.
Step 2: Live a life of luxury in a "Magnificent Mansion" as per the spell, were everyone has a bunsh of servants, a 9 course meal, and anything else they might desire every day. Let the other mages fight for the prime material, wile you cast your spell day after day, not worrying about anything.
Step 3: PAO everyone into a form that does not age.

Here it is. You and the people you care about survive indefinitelly, and have a rather nice time doing so.

[Maat Mons]

Are we only talking Humanoids? Or do we need to worry about pigeons trying to reshape the world to their whims? What about denizens of the various planes?

Do people know they have spells? Do they know how spells work? Do people just start accidentally casting Wish by having thoughts that start with "I wish?"

In any case, I take a vacation to somewhere very, very out-of-the-way, and I don't return until divinations indicate that something like order has been reestablished.

[Peelee]

After a couple years or so the Material Plane will have settled into a fairly peaceful equilobrium. So obviously the ideal solution here is to Gate over to the Astral Plane. Wish up the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for this all to blow over.

[Batcathat]

After a couple years or so the Material Plane will have settled into a fairly peaceful equilobrium. So obviously the ideal solution here is to Gate over to the Astral Plane. Wish up the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for this all to blow over.

Yeah, something along these lines for me too. I feel like any attempt to compete with or curb everyone else is waaaaaay too risky. It'd be like the Cold War, except everyone has nukes and the nukes can alter reality. (So, not that much like the Cold War, I guess...)

[Eurus]

I'm not sure what happens to reality when a few hundred (thousand? million?) people simultaneously start trying to cast time stop and gate the moment you fire the starting gun, but I'm sure it's nothing good. I agree that trying to get the heck off of the plane is probably your best bet.

[Jervis]

After a couple years or so the Material Plane will have settled into a fairly peaceful equilobrium. So obviously the ideal solution here is to Gate over to the Astral Plane. Wish up the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for this all to blow over.

Yeaaaaah log onto 2b2t some time to see what that equilibrium looks like. Chances are every square mile is going to alternate between epic castles made solid gold to smoldering hellscapes. Probably changing on a weekly basis while everyone has a hidden clone spell or phylactery or astral projection hole or something that means they can’t actually die

[Peelee]

Yeaaaaah log onto 2b2t some time to see what that equilibrium looks like. Chances are every square mile is going to alternate between epic castles made solid gold to smoldering hellscapes. Probably changing on a weekly basis while everyone has a hidden clone spell or phylactery or astral projection hole or something that means they can’t actually die

Had to google that. So a game where nobody gets booted, banned, or otherwise prevented from playing anymore somehow has relevance to a world where the spellcasters will die and be removed from participation?:smalltongue:

You should come to the Astral Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all this to blow over.

[AvatarVecna]

Never said they play to T1 strength. But everyone, from the local jester to the evil lord to that weird guy down the street, does have access to every spell.
Make of that situation what you will.

That's not the point they were making. Some people are gonna be smart and play spellcaster really well, and some won't. Among the ones that play it really well, some will play phenomenally, and some won't. Among the ones that play it phenomenally, some will be knowledgeable enough to play it close to perfect, and some won't. It's a very very small percentage of the total population with this kind of access, but the number of people with this kind of access is NI, so the infinitesimal fraction of them that ends up playing at T1/T0 capabilities will also end up being rather large. And as long as the number of them playing at that level of charop is higher than 1, there's gonna be high-op caster wars.

It might not even necessarily be on purpose initially. We just gave everybody every spell. How many of them are going to cast Teleport Through Time just to see what happens? How many time travelers does it take to turn the spacetime continuum on its head?

[Smoutwortel]

Situational analysis:
You still need components, so richness and health is suddenly comparable to character level.
many spells are affected by ability scores and caster level, so staying away from aggressive smart people is smart.
I assume this is the real world, because otherwise I wouldn't know the stats of myself and the world around me.

My actions if survival was my primary goal:
Cast anti-magic field on my phone.
Grab dice and use it to decide which plane of existence to flee to with plane shift.
Start figuring out how to deal with the sudden change.
Cast mind blank on myself
Go back and cast hallow on my house with detect magic as internal spell effect.
Cast forbiddance on my house
Turn on the news.
Cast greater wall of force around my house
Contact friends and family and ask how they are doing and decide upon their reactions whether and how to help.
Buy spell components for true seeing and contingency.
Start a movement for creating such as protected zones for those to slow to adapt.
Trust the government to minimize the overall damage.

[Peelee]

Situational analysis:
You still need components

Grab dice and use it to decide which plane of existence to flee to with plane shift.
While everybody is searching for tunings forks of the correct size and metal for the plane they want to travel to, I'm just sitting in my astral bar wondering about the lack of people Gating. Verbal and somatic only and you go exactly where you want. Easy peasy.

[Telok]

You know its going to be a rough day when Limbo is more laid back, orderly, and rational than the prime.

Time stop, miracle/wish/other fast & high level info finder spell (know a nice safe place to ride this out), gate-n-go.

Alternate: shapeshift into something sufficently durable (lich?), teleport half way to Andromeda, take your time working out how & where to go next.

[Jack_Simth]

Survival? Yeah, run. Time Stop, Gate elsewhere, Magnificent Mansion. It's got a nice little security clause: "Only those you designate may enter the mansion".

Then just... ride it out. Sooner or later someone will come out "on top" and get things under control enough for me to be sociable.

Until then? Chill out.

[Jervis]

Had to google that. So a game where nobody gets booted, banned, or otherwise prevented from playing anymore somehow has relevance to a world where the spellcasters will die and be removed from participation?:smalltongue:

You should come to the Astral Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all this to blow over.

Fair enough though you have to admit any competent caster can make themselves unkillable, or at least very very very difficult to kill, fairly quickly with at will wish effectively. Astral Projection alone means you just need to hide your real body somewhere to be functionally immortal, a contingent Revivify means even if a astral juggernaut finds you then you’ll just wake up a few hundred GP poorer.

Also i’m calling it, within a month someone would make a “lag machine” with spell clocks that spam Mages Disjunction, Slow, and Solid Fog on the entire planet minus itself every 6 seconds

[Peelee]

Fair enough though you have to admit any competent caster can make themselves unkillable, or at least very very very difficult to kill, fairly quickly with at will wish effectively. Astral Projection alone means you just need to hide your real body somewhere to be functionally immortal, a contingent Revivify means even if a astral juggernaut finds you then you’ll just wake up a few hundred GP poorer.

Also i’m calling it, within a month someone would make a “lag machine” with spell clocks that spam Mages Disjunction, Slow, and Solid Fog on the entire planet minus itself every 6 seconds

The world is a big place, though. Lots of people, most of them out for themselves or their very small group of family and maybe friends (maybe because those friends also have family and friends, who also have family and friends, and so on). Meanwhile governments and militaries are remarkably large groups (militaries especially, being fairly homogenous with a rigidly defined structure). Even with opposing parties, they will want to stay in power and grouping together will help that.

There will be wars all along the scale, from global to single-person-against-single-person. But things will eventually settle down into order, because people actually like order and will eventually come to terms with everything that's happened. It's the chaotic interim that's the dangerous part. Which is why my plan would be to block off a few years to go down to the Astral Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all this to blow over. :smallwink:

[SimonMoon6]

What caster level does everyone have? If everyone is caster level 0 since nobody in the real world has any levels in a spellcasting class, then it's a moot point since you can't cast spells with a 0 caster level. If everyone has infinite caster level, then things can get crazy quickly.

...so should we assume that everyone has something like 17th or 18th caster level as the minimum needed (normally) to cast 9th level spells?

Or is epic spellcasting allowed? Only the ones specifically listed in the ELH or any possible epic spell? Even with just the prefabricated epic spells, you can cast Pestilence (1000 ft. radius which affects people, crops, animals, etc.) Sure people can cast cure disease I suppose, but you'd have to cast it on every single carrot and apricot (etc) and I just don't see people running around doing that, especially since while they're doing that, I can just cast Pestilence again (10 minute casting time). I could teleport around the globe, casting Pestilence over and over again in every part of every major city. This is not about killing people directly, but destroying the food chain completely. And presumably, I wouldn't be the only person doing this.

Rain of Fire is another good spell. Sure, you can protect yourself from the fire damage, but can you protect *everything*? It's got a 2 mile radius, which will destroy all vegetation. Again, this probably won't kill people directly, but there goes the food chain.

How many hit points will ordinary people have? If everyone's a 1st level commoner, then even the slightest confrontation could wipe out tons of people.

I mean, suppose we get mad at some guy and we cast Verdigris Tsunami. Ten minute casting time (and requiring fifteen casters) but 1000 foot radius, dealing 40d6 damage to people and things in the area....Reflex save for half... but that's still a *minimum* of 20 damage to everyone, which will certainly kill all of those 1st level commoners. And 1st level commoners aren't likely to make this Reflex save, and the average damage would be 140 hp... which is a lot of overkill to kill a 1st level commoner.

[SangoProduction]

Everyone gets to cast every spell.
Make whatever other assumptions you please.

[Saintheart]

Right. I make assumptions, cast Plane Shift, make my way to the Astral Winchester, sit down next to Peelee, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all this to blow over.

[Crake]

All these people casting magnificent mansion when genesis is on the board?!

[bekeleven]

I think the very first move is Time Stop (Celerity, if it gets you there faster). Then either you take more actions (Summon Component -> Teleport through time, etc) or you armor up (Mind Blank, PAO/Shapechange).

If 7 billion people gained access to every spell at once, at least one person would be uninformed or suicidal enough to start making greater wishes, and who knows if the entire planet lasts more than a minute. Outer planes may not exist attached to our prime material plane, so I'd do whatever I could to eliminate my need for atmosphere or heat (PAO into a construct?), get my ass to mars, and from there start a more comprehensive set of defenses.

Also, do my best to avoid durational defenses until I've reverse-engineered my caster level. I'd hate to get booted out of a magnificent mansion while casting Genesis or something.

[Eldan]

Without going into politics, I expect this to end on scales that make global thermonuclear war look cute by comparison. Within hours, probably. There are extremist groups with thousands of members who would immediately start declaring war on each other and on various countries, only now everyone has angelic armies, weather control and landscape-devastating AoE effects.

So, order of operations is casting Genesis, planeshifting to it, then casting every defensive and buff spell I know. We're talking Astral Projection into a Magnficient Mansion inside a Genesis demiplane, with contingent resurrections. I can probably afford losing a few levels to make some of them permanent, too, or build them into the landscape. By that point, about an hour has likely passed and I can consider which of my friends and family are safe to maybe try to contact.

[Eldan]

All these people casting magnificent mansion when genesis is on the board?!

It's up to debate how secure demiplanes are against just planeshifting in, and the don't come with furniture and food, like MM does.

I'd just stack both.

[AvatarVecna]

Silver Key PrC can enter magnificent mansions without permission as part of its capstone. Granted, this hypothetical only grants spells, not levels in anything in particular, but I don't doubt there's a way to grant yourself class features of your choice using some dumb spell combo.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's up to debate how secure demiplanes are against just planeshifting in, and the don't come with furniture and food, like MM does.

I'd just stack both.

Iirc according to Manual of the Planes you can only planeshift into a demiplane from a point where it's coterminous to whatever plane you're trying to enter from.
For Genesis that's the Ethereal for the spell version. The Ethereal is infinite, largely featureless, filled with ghosts and not entirely coterminous to the material.
The area your demiplane is coterminous to is a 180ft radius per casting of the spell.

Also Plane Shift is a teleportation spell and warding a demiplane with Forbiddance isn't exactly hard. The only thing that gets through that is Wish (which gets through everything).

But the main defence for people shifting into your demiplane is obscurity. It's extremely unlikely for someone to just stumble on it without prior knowledge of its existence.

Magnificent Mansion alone can be countered too easily - they may not be able to enter but the portal only becomes invisible - anyone with Arcane Sight, See Invis or a similar spell can target it with a dispel and drop you out. It's definitely the best comfort option though.

[InvisibleBison]

All these people casting magnificent mansion when genesis is on the board?!

Genesis has a 1 week casting time, making it a non-starter in this situation.

[Batcathat]

Whether or not it's possible to get into the various demiplanes and other hidaways, it does seem fairly unlikely that most people would spend time trying to do so. Unless you've made some serious personal enemies, people who've basically just become omnipotent probably have better things to do. (Though after the initial chaos has died down, probably along with the majority of people, it's probably likely that some of the remaining people might start looking for the competition).

[Peelee]

Whether or not it's possible to get into the various demiplanes and other hidaways, it does seem fairly unlikely that most people would spend time trying to do so. Unless you've made some serious personal enemies, people who've basically just become omnipotent probably have better things to do. (Though after the initial chaos has died down, probably along with the majority of people, it's probably likely that some of the remaining people might start looking for the competition).

7 billion people, formed into countless different groups and factions and subgroups and splinter groups and.... I'm not afraid of an eenemy gunning for me, I'm afraid of being a casualty on the sidelines.

The Astral Winchester has two friendly people hanging out and is ready to welcome any more who wish to come.

[Batcathat]

7 billion people, formed into countless different groups and factions and subgroups and splinter groups and.... I'm not afraid of an eenemy gunning for me, I'm afraid of being a casualty on the sidelines.

The Astral Winchester has two friendly people hanging out and is ready to welcome any more who wish to come.

Oh, I agree. Getting the hell out of the way as soon as possible is certainly important. I just meant that once you manage to flee into some other plane or something it seems unlikely that people initially would bother trying to track you down and attempt to follow.

[Peelee]

Oh, I agree. Getting the hell out of the way as soon as possible is certainly important. I just meant that once you manage to flee into some other plane or something it seems unlikely that people initially would bother trying to track you down and attempt to follow.

Ah, I completely missed that you were the first one to agree with me when I tossed out that plan. My bad!

[Saintheart]

Ah, I completely missed that you were the first one to agree with me when I tossed out that plan. My bad!

Wait (hic) does this mean I have to pay for his first beer?

[Eldan]

Genesis has a 1 week casting time, making it a non-starter in this situation.

Oof, I forgot about that one.

So, teleport to the astral plane, first. All spells are quickened on the astral.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

There's no such thing as real "safety" because a properly-worded Wish can IIRC bring you anywhere, part any defense spells can create. Of course that requires someone to be targeting you (or some maniac to have an infinite number of Ice Assassins targeting every single living human, in which case you've already lost). If you don't have enemies, Magnificient Mansion seems sufficient - and if not, only Teleport Through Time could provide real safety.


Silver Key PrC can enter magnificent mansions without permission as part of its capstone. Granted, this hypothetical only grants spells, not levels in anything in particular, but I don't doubt there's a way to grant yourself class features of your choice using some dumb spell combo.
IIRC you can make give yourself Lycanthropy with a spell. If there's a way to level-drain yourself with a spell (which is tricky - AFAIK all negative level spells don't make you lose actual levels, so you might have to create an Ice Assassin and have it Shapechange into the right creature before striking you), I think you can use Restoration to turn those HD into other levels.

[InvisibleBison]

Oof, I forgot about that one.

So, teleport to the astral plane, first. All spells are quickened on the astral.

Not going to work, unfortunately. Quicken spell doesn't do anything to spells with a casting time longer than a full-round action, and genesis can only be cast on the Ethereal Plane.

Correction: Genesis says "A character can only cast this spell while on the Ethereal Plane." So if you're using an item to cast the spell, you can do it anywhere. And depending on what kind of item you use, you might be able to bypass the casting time as well.

[Eurus]

Not going to work, unfortunately. Quicken spell doesn't do anything to spells with a casting time longer than a full-round action, and genesis can only be cast on the Ethereal Plane.

Correction: Genesis says "A character can only cast this spell while on the Ethereal Plane." So if you're using an item to cast the spell, you can do it anywhere. And depending on what kind of item you use, you might be able to bypass the casting time as well.

...That's a really interesting detail, I never thought about that. The effect is still "a demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal plane, centered on your location", so that could have some weird results depending on where you cast it.

[MornShine]

Genesis has a 1 week casting time, making it a non-starter in this situation.

Huh. Depending on how you read the self-contradictions of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#usingItems), this should work:


Wish for a Scroll of Genesis
Loop your CL until it's high enough to cast the scroll with no failure chance (shouldn't take too long)
Cast Genesis from the scroll as a standard action


Hanging out in a bar seems fun, provided everyone that can find the bar is sociable. Which... well, maybe.

[Saintheart]

Hanging out in a bar seems fun, provided everyone that can find the bar is sociable. Which... well, maybe.

Hey, on top of the several pints I've already had, I have Glibness and Lore of the Gods, at will, I'm the most social person in the vicinity of the Astral Winchester!

[NichG]

Hiding is a good idea, security through obscurity is a good idea (be too much trouble to hunt down when there are easier targets), but you'd still be vulnerable to stuff like a random relative accidentally casting e.g. 'I wish X were here with us' and bringing you back into the chaos, since that is explicitly one of the things wish can safely do. Not sure what's proof against that particular function other than having an unbeatable Will save and not failing on a 1, or having enough SR that it can't stick. So I guess the first thing to do is to figure out if there's something which can make you not be easy to refer to specifically enough that summoning you counts as a safe wish.

[Doctor Despair]

Hiding is a good idea, security through obscurity is a good idea (be too much trouble to hunt down when there are easier targets), but you'd still be vulnerable to stuff like a random relative accidentally casting e.g. 'I wish X were here with us' and bringing you back into the chaos, since that is explicitly one of the things wish can safely do. Not sure what's proof against that particular function other than having an unbeatable Will save and not failing on a 1, or having enough SR that it can't stick. So I guess the first thing to do is to figure out if there's something which can make you not be easy to refer to specifically enough that summoning you counts as a safe wish.

That's easily done. Immediately apply the God Blooded of Vecna template. All knowledge of you immediately fades from the world for everyone except you and Vecna. Proceed to dive into your pocket dimension / mansion / etc. Then you'd only be hit with effects that affect everyone everywhere, and if that sort of wish is possible, it's presumably also possible to wish that you aren't affected by those. It costs some LA, and requires you to undergo torture and lose all your facial features, but that's the cost of assured survival instead of RNG.

Edit: I take it back; there's a much more secure answer. Immediately use Greater Celerity, then Teleport Through Time to go back to before everyone had every spell.

Since archive.wizards is down right now...

Teleport Through Time
Transmutation [Teleportation]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Personal and touch
Target: The character and touched objects or other touched willing creatures weighing up to 50 lb./level
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No and Yes (object)

A far more powerful version of the teleport spell, this spell instantly transports the character to the same location, but to a different time. Interplanar travel is not possible, and the spell fails on any plane where time is meaningless. The character can bring along objects and willing creatures totaling up to 50 pounds per caster level. Unwilling creatures cannot be affected by this spell. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance.

To cast this spell, the character must be able to state the arrival time accurately, down to the minute. The spell never transports the caster and companions to the precise minute desired, but it cannot function at all without a specific minute in time to target. This "drift" effect of not arriving at the precise time desired grows with the "distance" through time (measured in years, months, and weeks) traveled. Thus, a caster teleporting to last month arrives closer to her goal than one traveling 250 years. The minimum temporal distance traveled is 1 day, so this spell is not useful for going back to the beginning of a melee that is still progressing.

This spell requires some knowledge of the destination time, so it cannot transport anyone into the future since the future is entirely unknown to the caster. Even spells that give knowledge of the future cannot give definite enough knowledge to allow this spell to work. It is possible to use this spell to travel forward in time, but only to the point in the caster's life when the caster first went back in time.

Since the caster may not know exactly what is transpiring at the destination time, prudent time-travelers prepare for the worst.

The errors in arrival for this spell occur in time rather than in location, since the character does not change locations at all. To see how closely the character arrives to the planned arrival time, consult this table.



Temporal Distance Travelled
Temporal Drift*
Chance of Mishap


1 day to 1 month
+/- d8 minutes
5%


1 month to 1 year
+/- d8 hours
7%


1 year to 10 years
+/- d20 hours
10%


10 years to 100 years
+/- d8 days
15%


100 years to 1,000 years
+/- d20 days
20%


1,000 years +
+/- d20 months
25%



* There is a 50% chance that the number is a negative number.

Add or subtract the temporal drift to the destination time to determine the exact time of arrival.

Mishaps result in the spell failing and the character taking 1 point of Intelligence damage for every 10 years of expected time travel due to the mental bombardment that time travel brings with it. Thus, a character trying to transport through 100 years would take 10 points of Intelligence damage. Intelligence can be reduced to 0 through this damage (but not lower).

In the case that a traveler meets himself, the two travelers instantly lose control and attack each other with every ability and item at their disposal. However, should a traveler die while traveling in the past, the traveler's body immediately vanishes from the point of time it traveled to and returns to the point where the spell was cast at the time that the spell was cast. In other words, if a traveler perishes in a fire, the instant that the traveler died in that fire is the instant in which the traveler is no longer in that time period, and the body is never found within that location since it returns to the moment of time in which the traveler finished the spell and began time traveling.

Special Note: The introduction of time travel into any campaign can be fraught with peril, so tread carefully. Players will wonder how much they can mess with the timeline, and you may run into instances of the grandfather paradox. Further, changes made very far back in time cannot really be worked out completely because of the chaotic aspect of events. Thus, it is simplest to use the rule that changes in time are minor and somehow time smooths them out. This argues for a determinism and predestination in the ways of your world, but you can say that once events have transpired, small perturbations are possible (this person lives rather than dies, but does not contribute to events in a meaningful way), but the large-scale events themselves somehow happen anyway. If the cause is changed, another cause comes along. In the case of someone killing their own grandfather, the PC might find that he is the same but has a different family when returning to the present. As long as you keep the knowledge of how to travel in time restricted, your campaign will not fall apart.

Material Components: The material components of this spell are a pinch of dead skin, a drop of oil of timelessness, and a flower grown in soil untouched by any intelligent creature since the desired destination time. The flower must be picked during the casting of the spell. Untouched soil is defined as soil that no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher has walked on, touched, or disturbed in any way, and it is usually found in remote locations (putting soil in a portable container disturbs it). The caster does not know whether the soil has been disturbed too recently for the time travel attempt, and many wizards simply use trial and error to find suitable locations. In short, you must find a pristine area to cast this spell, then you travel back in time to the exact same location at which you cast the spell. Because important events in a character's life are highly unlikely to take place in pristine locales, it's unlikely you'll have the ability to use this spell to make two of yourself to appear in the same place at the same time. Once you cast the spell in a particular location, it is no longer pristine, making it even more difficult to arrange for three or more of your future selves to assemble together.

XP Cost: 1,000 XP.

Edit2: Since there's a finite amount of people in the world (probably fewer than there are days), even if everyone used Teleport Through Time simultaneously to go back in time, we still shouldn't land in the same year as anyone else, let alone the same month, given there's an infinite amount of years since the beginning of time. Additionally, we don't have to worry about folks going back further than use to lay a trap, as the spell declares how only minor changes in the timeline are possible, so any havoc they could wreak would be very, very limited in scope. This should, at the very least, buy you time enough to make any sort of preparations you want -- such as nesting a demiplane hideaway and encasing yourself in quintessence with contingent spells to wake you at your desired time after you initially teleported.

[Raven777]

I think the best analogy would be a trading card game. Having all cards doesn't make you a good player. Sure, everybody has access to the same resources, but the on who uses em "most wisely" wins.

I play a Platinum Angel and go back to sleep then.

[Peelee]

Wait (hic) does this mean I have to pay for his first beer?
Pay? Oh my no, none of that silliness. You don't pay in the Astral Winchester. That was part of the Wish.

Hanging out in a bar seems fun, provided everyone that can find the bar is sociable. Which... well, maybe.
Non-sociable people are not allowed in. That was part of the Wish.

It was a good use of Wish.

[Eldan]

Not going to work, unfortunately. Quicken spell doesn't do anything to spells with a casting time longer than a full-round action, and genesis can only be cast on the Ethereal Plane.

Correction: Genesis says "A character can only cast this spell while on the Ethereal Plane." So if you're using an item to cast the spell, you can do it anywhere. And depending on what kind of item you use, you might be able to bypass the casting time as well.

Man, it's really been too long since I actually played 3.5.

I'm so dead.

[Crake]

It's up to debate how secure demiplanes are against just planeshifting in, and the don't come with furniture and food, like MM does.

I'd just stack both.

I mean, unless you can get a tuning fork for the demiplane, and since everyone has gate, they're equally as secure against it really, since you can definitely gate into both a demiplane and a magnificent mansion. But also, since you literally have every spell, you could easily conjure up heros feasts and make permanencied unseen servants to replicate the features of a magnificent mansion, plus true creation to fill the demiplane with whatever you want ontop of that. Best part is it won't go away after a few hours, unlike a magnificent mansion, plus you can add planar traits like flowing time to give yourself more time relative to the material.

Extra points for using a selective spell genesis to apply no magic to your entire demiplane, but have it not affect you or your friends, limiting anyone else who visits the plane to 4th level spells via invoke magic, while you and your friends are free to cast 9th level spells without issue.


Genesis has a 1 week casting time, making it a non-starter in this situation.

That can be solved by spamming DCFS to get a 17th level spell slot and getting innate spell to cast genesis as an SLA.

[Eldan]

True with the tuning fork, but that's what I mean the spell is weird in some details. I mean, the caster has to get there somehow. Unless casting the spell transports you there.

[Jack_Simth]

...you can definitely gate into both a demiplane and a magnificent mansion.

Not "definitely" - MMM includes the line "only those you designate may enter". If the DM takes that as just "when using the door" then Gate works for invaders. If the DM reads that as a general sense, then Gate does not work of itself for invaders. Which way it goes is a matter of interpretation, so it's not "definitely"

[El Dorado]

The terrible twos just got more terrible.

[NichG]

That's easily done. Immediately apply the God Blooded of Vecna template. All knowledge of you immediately fades from the world for everyone except you and Vecna. Proceed to dive into your pocket dimension / mansion / etc. Then you'd only be hit with effects that affect everyone everywhere, and if that sort of wish is possible, it's presumably also possible to wish that you aren't affected by those. It costs some LA, and requires you to undergo torture and lose all your facial features, but that's the cost of assured survival instead of RNG.

Edit: I take it back; there's a much more secure answer. Immediately use Greater Celerity, then Teleport Through Time to go back to before everyone had every spell.

Since archive.wizards is down right now...

Edit2: Since there's a finite amount of people in the world (probably fewer than there are days), even if everyone used Teleport Through Time simultaneously to go back in time, we still shouldn't land in the same year as anyone else, let alone the same month, given there's an infinite amount of years since the beginning of time. Additionally, we don't have to worry about folks going back further than use to lay a trap, as the spell declares how only minor changes in the timeline are possible, so any havoc they could wreak would be very, very limited in scope. This should, at the very least, buy you time enough to make any sort of preparations you want -- such as nesting a demiplane hideaway and encasing yourself in quintessence with contingent spells to wake you at your desired time after you initially teleported.

Material components are tricky for these approaches I think, and a lot of it depends on stuff that's being assumed around the premise. For example, if 'everyone has every spell' but no access to D&D mechanics like levels, feats, etc beyond that unless those mechanics can be granted to you by a spell, then something like 'just take Eschew Components' has a much bigger spin-up loop which might involve pathing through stuff like summoning something that can cast Awaken on you from its own XP (or as an SLA) after PAOing into an animal or tree, just so you can get access to the level system. Teleport Through Time in particular would be annoying to use if you couldn't eschew the components, given the whole 'undisturbed soil' thing.

That said, if there is no specific reason for people in the world to want to kill you in particular, you probably do have much more than one round to escape, especially if we're ignoring any use of Wish that goes off-list (which would bar most 'accidentally kill the world in one round' types of outcomes). So anything that you can do within, say, the first 10 minutes is probably still pretty safe even if you live in a densely populated city. And you probably have a day or more if you live away from other people and don't personally have enemies who would want to kill you.

If we're not ignoring material component costs and people don't automatically get the rest of the D&D mechanics just because of spell access, probably the most dangerous thing that could happen in short order would be people accidentally dropping things like Blasphemy or Holy Word or whatever and killing everyone within 40ft (including themselves though...) - at least, if spells are cast at their minimum allowed caster level.

If everyone is CL 0, no other D&D mechanics, and we're not ignoring material component costs then actually I think it'd probably take months to really get to hellscape levels of ambient danger, because outside of particular people who are already familiar with D&D, it would take active experimentation and analysis to figure out how to actually become capable of casting e.g. enough of a fireball to actually cause harm.

[D+1]

"I volunteer NOT to be tribute for these Hunger Games, thank you very much."

[Vaern]

What are the conditions of spellcasting in this scenario?

Everyone has access to and the ability to cast all spells. Does this also constitute knowledge of all spells and how to cast them, or do they kind of have to figure everything out as they go? To that end, do they know they have suddenly gained the ability to use magic to begin with?

Are material and XP costs still in play? I'm imagining that we're not limited by caster level in this scenario, and we have what is effectively a bunch of level 1-3 characters casting 9th level spells. The XP cost of spells like wish, miracle, and genesis would prevent the vast majority of people from being able to actually cast them. Expensive material components also bar a good number of spells from large portions of the population.

Assuming people don't automatically have an encyclopedic knowledge of their potential spell list and material components are still required, it could take a very long time for people to actually figure out how to use most of their spells. I mean, at least until someone figures it out and cracks open the Spell Compendium...

[tiercel]

Hop onto Twitter or whatever

Try to start trending hashtag #HeyEverybodyCastRemoveDiseaseOnYourselfRightNow

That should solve, or at least go a long way toward solving, *one* problem (and any number of other disease related issues)

Oh, also, #HeyEverybodyCastCreateFoodAndWaterRightNow

That should solve another big problem

Now, rabbit together with the people I care most about. The idea of the Astral Winchester sounds good but *checks shirt pocket” yeah my name is not Shaun and I’m certainly not Shaun’s girlfriend so I’m a little leery of what narrative convention would mean for me and a group of loved ones hanging out at the Winchester basically asking “what could go wrong here?”

I mean sure, I might be briefly tempted by the prospect of some kind OP isekai adventure in a D&D world, but (1) I’d probably run into some GMPC like Elminster a lot sooner than I’d like and also (2) I’ve read enough of Guardians of the Flame that no no no no no no NO no thank you.

[Peelee]

The idea of the Astral Winchester sounds good but *checks shirt pocket” yeah my name is not Shaun and I’m certainly not Shaun’s girlfriend so I’m a little leery of what narrative convention would mean for me and a group of loved ones hanging out at the Winchester basically asking “what could go wrong here?”

A.) It was a terrible idea in SotD. It is a great idea here.
2.) Narrative convention doesn't apply when there's no narrative. Also, we're not asking that, we're playing darts and pool and stuff.
iii.) I like you as a friend (same goes for all y'all - ain't no "loved one" status here).:smalltongue:

[Smoutwortel]

What caster level does everyone have? If everyone is caster level 0 since nobody in the real world has any levels in a spellcasting class, then it's a moot point since you can't cast spells with a 0 caster level. If everyone has infinite caster level, then things can get crazy quickly.

...so should we assume that everyone has something like 17th or 18th caster level as the minimum needed (normally) to cast 9th level spells?

Or is epic spellcasting allowed? Only the ones specifically listed in the ELH or any possible epic spell? Even with just the prefabricated epic spells, you can cast Pestilence (1000 ft. radius which affects people, crops, animals, etc.) Sure people can cast cure disease I suppose, but you'd have to cast it on every single carrot and apricot (etc) and I just don't see people running around doing that, especially since while they're doing that, I can just cast Pestilence again (10 minute casting time). I could teleport around the globe, casting Pestilence over and over again in every part of every major city. This is not about killing people directly, but destroying the food chain completely. And presumably, I wouldn't be the only person doing this.

Rain of Fire is another good spell. Sure, you can protect yourself from the fire damage, but can you protect *everything*? It's got a 2 mile radius, which will destroy all vegetation. Again, this probably won't kill people directly, but there goes the food chain.

How many hit points will ordinary people have? If everyone's a 1st level commoner, then even the slightest confrontation could wipe out tons of people.

I mean, suppose we get mad at some guy and we cast Verdigris Tsunami. Ten minute casting time (and requiring fifteen casters) but 1000 foot radius, dealing 40d6 damage to people and things in the area....Reflex save for half... but that's still a *minimum* of 20 damage to everyone, which will certainly kill all of those 1st level commoners. And 1st level commoners aren't likely to make this Reflex save, and the average damage would be 140 hp... which is a lot of overkill to kill a 1st level commoner.

Conjure food and water.
purify.
plane shift.

[Jack_Simth]

Time Stop.
Gate (to distant spot on the astral)
Magnificient Mansion
Mind Blank

Pending info about XP costs:
Wish(Spellblade with Wish).

[SimonMoon6]

What if the real world doesn't have an Astral Plane, an Ethereal Plane, or any of these other planes?

And what if you can only summon/gate/etc real creatures? Zodars don't exist in the real world as far as I know.

[Peelee]

What if the real world doesn't have an Astral Plane, an Ethereal Plane, or any of these other planes?

And what if you can only summon/gate/etc real creatures? Zodars don't exist in the real world as far as I know.

The real world doesn't have force damage but I assume magic missile still works. Heck, the real world doesn't have magic, but I assume magic missile still works.

Shoet version, if the spell says you can do a thing, I imagine you can do the thing. Gate or Plane Shift don't really do anything without other planes, so I assume that once everybody gets spells, all the ancillary effects of those spells existing also come to be. Like the astral plane.

Which almost immediately gets a bar placed in it.

[White Blade]

Alright, by "survive" do we mean "survive" or do we mean "be alive at the end of the challenge" because these are different things!

On a practical level, time stop alone should probably be enough to survive. Saving a huge portion of the population isn't necessary since we have access to True Resurrection, so anyone who I know I can just bring back with a safe Wish -> True Resurrection trick. Time Stop -> Mind Blank + Mansion -> Go into the mansion, message my friends the location and password and instructions -> Pull of the appropriate NI tricks -> Mansion + Mind Blank as necessary.

I think really, the main thing is if we have basically any Experience Points at all to pick up some gate-chain wish granting monstrosity, no serious harm can be done to us. We can build a paradise, us and all of our dead relatives too, there's no real limits here. "Wait it out on the Astral" is perfectly fine as a strategy, but since that's what everyone's thinking I might instead goose-step off an infinite series of simulacra of myself to handle the situation.

[Batcathat]

What if the real world doesn't have an Astral Plane, an Ethereal Plane, or any of these other planes?

And what if you can only summon/gate/etc real creatures? Zodars don't exist in the real world as far as I know.

If I can't escape to a different plane, I'd probably try to get as far away as possible within this one. If I'm a galaxy or two over, I should hopefully be pretty safe from the pandemonium on Earth. Of course, it depends on whether there are aliens and whether those aliens have also gotten magical powers. I might have to jump around for a while to find a good hiding place.

[Saintheart]

If I can't escape to a different plane, I'd probably try to get as far away as possible within this one. If I'm a galaxy or two over, I should hopefully be pretty safe from the pandemonium on Earth. Of course, it depends on whether there are aliens and whether those aliens have also gotten magical powers. I might have to jump around for a while to find a good hiding place.

Travellin' through galactic space ain't like dustin' crops, boy! Without precise calculations you could fly right through a star, bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

Nope, I still recommend you Plane Shift, come down the Astral Winchester, have a cold pint, and wait for all this to blow over with Peelee and me. I'll even pay you back for your beer that I apparently drank.

[Batcathat]

Travellin' through galactic space ain't like dustin' crops, boy! Without precise calculations you could fly right through a star, bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

Even if I teleport completely blind (and it'd probably be a good idea to scry ahead), the chances of hitting a star by accident would be, well, astronomically small. Of course, teleporting to some random spot in space would be pretty unhealthy too, so I suppose I better either look for a proper place to land (I wonder what spell would work for finding hospitable planets in a different galaxy?) or ensure I can survive the vacuum.

But yeah, plane shift is the better option if available. The "get the hell out of the galaxy" plan is if there are no other planes.

[tiercel]

A.) It was a terrible idea in SotD. It is a great idea here.
2.) Narrative convention doesn't apply when there's no narrative. Also, we're not asking that, we're playing darts and pool and stuff.
iii.) I like you as a friend (same goes for all y'all - ain't no "loved one" status here).:smalltongue:

A) So, “trust me?” That never precedes everything going haywire ;)
2) Really? ‘Cos this situation has “dystopian apocalypse” written all over it. I could still do with a cuppa, mind you, but I might be a little twitchy and contingency’d up, just in case.
iii) No offense, but I was talking about the loved ones I’d be evacing from Earth with me to hopefully join our new astral buddies, you lot, assuming the Winchester doesn’t wind up pear-shaped.

[Smoutwortel]

Alright, by "survive" do we mean "survive" or do we mean "be alive at the end of the challenge" because these are different things!

On a practical level, time stop alone should probably be enough to survive. Saving a huge portion of the population isn't necessary since we have access to True Resurrection, so anyone who I know I can just bring back with a safe Wish -> True Resurrection trick. Time Stop -> Mind Blank + Mansion -> Go into the mansion, message my friends the location and password and instructions -> Pull of the appropriate NI tricks -> Mansion + Mind Blank as necessary.

I think really, the main thing is if we have basically any Experience Points at all to pick up some gate-chain wish granting monstrosity, no serious harm can be done to us. We can build a paradise, us and all of our dead relatives too, there's no real limits here. "Wait it out on the Astral" is perfectly fine as a strategy, but since that's what everyone's thinking I might instead goose-step off an infinite series of simulacra of myself to handle the situation.

Dead from old age doesn't allow resurrection

[Telok]

An interesting note, we didn't get feats. Unless there's a form of the Contingency spell that allows multiples we only get one instance of it.

Barring using Limited Wish to duplicate Psychic Reformation, natch. Questionable if that works without also having XPH content on the table too, but it's just a Wish away...

[White Blade]

Dead from old age doesn't allow resurrection

You don’t age on the Astral Plane so if this becomes a worry you can just move. Debatably also true of Genesis planes if you want.

[Mechalich]

There's a couple of key considerations for this scenario that really shift the boundaries. One is material components, the other is XP. If you don't have material components a lot, and I mean a lot of spells are out of reach, including Magnificent Mansion and Plane shift. If there's no XP, Gate and Wish are also out of reach. Options available when only using spells without material components are significantly more limited.

Running is still the priority, simply because giving this power to everyone means that persons with extreme mental troubles - late stage schizophrenia, severe dementia, extreme psychopathy, etc. - will unleash chaos. This means the priority if getting away from population centers and other concentrations of people in order to survive the first couple of hours. This is even more important is XP gain suddenly becomes viable and the serial killer who unloads a couple of Meteor Swarms in his cell block in rounds 1-5 is able to cast Wish thereafter.

So, what options are available to flee without using material components? Teleport is one, especially if you happen to be 'very familiar' with some suitably isolated location deep in the wilderness. Etherealness is another option, since very few material effects can hurt you once you go ethereal (and you can improve this by sinking into the ground or flying up in the sky). Wind Walk also isn't bad, given it's lengthy duration, since you can fly up to 50,000 ft and sit over the Atlantic out of contact with everything (this also potentially gives the option to scout out a safe region to land and acquire components after things calm down a bit).

Getting components is tricky. A lot of the good components are jewelry, which means hitting up a jewelry store or thrift shop is ideal. You don't want to do this yourself, obviously. A summoned monster can act on your behalf. The bag+candle needed for Summon Monster are ubiquitous, and plausibly a divine focus for Summon Nature's Ally shouldn't be hard to come up with (a Pixie makes an ideal thief on your behalf). A quick proxy raid or two (you of course stay ethereal and/or within a prismatic sphere the whole time), should acquire the materials necessary to plane shift to the astral, cast magnificent mansion a few times, and some other goodies (the jade circlet needed to cast shapechange for instance). After that you're in business.

[Peelee]

If there's no XP, Gate and Wish are also out of reach.
Gate does not need XP to travel.

Gate
Conjuration (Creation or Calling)

XP Cost
1,000 XP (only for the calling creatures function).

Also, Plane Shift can probably still work if you manage to find of make right right forked metal rod. But Gate works anyway, so why bother?

[NichG]

Using Miracle rather than Wish to duplicate 7th level spells has no XP cost, so that's probably a way around many of the material component issues, at least anything less than 100gp and with no XP cost.

[Jack_Simth]

There's a couple of key considerations for this scenario that really shift the boundaries. One is material components, the other is XP. If you don't have material components a lot, and I mean a lot of spells are out of reach, including Magnificent Mansion and Plane shift. If there's no XP, Gate and Wish are also out of reach. Options available when only using spells without material components are significantly more limited. Even if enforced, material / focus components are only an issue for particularly high level spells - Shapechange, for example - as lower level ones are (in this scenario) easy to duplicate (Miracle, Shades, et cetera). Focuses for MMM work out to 15 gp, well under Miracle's limit even if they were material components, and Shades doesn't care at all about the original spell's components.

If XP components are enforced, you're missing some sweet spells, but you're also not having to defend against nearly as much (at least, not as soon).