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Saelethil
2022-01-12, 08:42 PM
The goal of these features was to make an alternative to fighting styles that felt more impactful in gameplay rather than just writing it on your character sheet at level 1 and never bothering with it again. I also thought that a lot of the Battle Master Maneuvers were very on-brand for Monks so I worked them in as a bonus ability rather than an alternative feature since there aren't really any features I would be willing to take away form Monks and since they cost ki it doesn't really increase power level so much as it allows for more variety.

Martial Technique
Optional 1st-level Fighter feature, which replaces the Fighting Style feature.
You have honed a particular technique which you have found to be beneficial in combat. You have learned one (2?) Battle Master Maneuver and gain a Technique Die. This die is a d4 which you regain when at the end of your turn and can be used in place of the Superiority Die for any Maneuver you know.

You learn one additional Maneuver and gain one additional Technique Die per round at Fighter levels 7, 15, and 20.

Monastic Practice
Optional 2nd-level Monk Feature
As you have practiced your martial arts you have developed a technique which aids you in a fight. You learn 1 (2?) Battle Master Maneuver and can expend 1 ki point to use it. You treat your Martial Arts Die as your a Superiority Die and if the maneuver calls for a saving throw it uses your Ki Save dc.
Alternatively, once on any round that you do not spend ki on this feature, you can gain the non dice related effects of a maneuver you know.

You learn one additional Maneuver at Monk levels 7, 15, and 20.


I've been ruminating on Martial Technique for a while and just came up with Monastic Practice today so any thoughts on either would be welcomed. In theory Martial Technique would work on any class with a fighting style and I could imagine special Maneuvers being made for other classes as well as splitting them by class similarly to how spells are handled now.

Rilmani
2022-01-16, 05:43 PM
Choose One-
Enhanced Disengage: At any point on your turn after you take the Disengage action, you can use your Reaction to make a weapon attack against a creature within range of your speed.

Enhanced Dash: At any point on your turn after you take the Dash action, you can use your Reaction to make a weapon attack against a creature within range of your speed.

Enhanced Dodge: At any point on your turn after you take the Dodge action, you can use your Reaction to make a weapon attack against a creature within range of your speed. This attack is made with Disadvantage.

I think that for these two classes this could be a character choice made when you gain Extra Attack. Monks would gain more out of the options given their lesser-used Ki abilities, but Fighters will eventually gain all three.

Saelethil
2022-01-17, 04:09 PM
Choose One-
Enhanced Disengage: At any point on your turn after you take the Disengage action, you can use your Reaction to make a weapon attack against a creature within range of your speed.

Enhanced Dash: At any point on your turn after you take the Dash action, you can use your Reaction to make a weapon attack against a creature within range of your speed.

Enhanced Dodge: At any point on your turn after you take the Dodge action, you can use your Reaction to make a weapon attack against a creature within range of your speed. This attack is made with Disadvantage.

I think that for these two classes this could be a character choice made when you gain Extra Attack. Monks would gain more out of the options given their lesser-used Ki abilities, but Fighters will eventually gain all three.

I really like these! My initial thought was that they’re a little strong but after thinking it over I think that the cost of a reaction makes it very reasonable. I do expect that this would encourage even more Fighters to dip into Rogue for Cunning Action but I don’t think that’s too much of a problem.

Rilmani
2022-01-17, 05:15 PM
I really like these! My initial thought was that they’re a little strong but after thinking it over I think that the cost of a reaction makes it very reasonable. I do expect that this would encourage even more Fighters to dip into Rogue for Cunning Action but I don’t think that’s too much of a problem.

Great! Note that Enhanced Dodge has an extra penalty though. Also I have never heard of a Monk/Rogue multiclass, presumably due to features competing for that Bonus Action so I'm happy to promote that option. The primary goal is to give monks and fighters more actions with their turns, and I think making Disengage and the like worthwhile will help.

As for your original post, I like the idea of using a d4 for Martial Technique. Obviously stronger technique dice are more fun, but a d4 makes it easy to justify an additional class feature. I'm not sure how I feel about the die recharging automatically though. In the Book of Nine Swords, with the sublime classes, different initiators had their own ways to recover maneuvers so that they could not be spammed indefinitely. Changing the die recharge to "When you replace an attack with a Grapple/Shove," or "When you make a weapon attack under X conditions, roll your attack roll twice. If both rolls would be a hit, recover Y technique dice/maneuvers." Or use the dodge action to recover X technique dice.

You know what? I think that your Martial Technique ability in its current form would be great for a Spell-less Ranger. Perhaps on the Ranger, you have a number of Technique dice equal to your proficiency bonus... should you have the Battlemaster limit of only allowing one Maneuver per attack? Hmm. Comboing them would be fun, and could be balanced if A) dice are slow to recharge, B) dice are always small, and C) you carefully select which ones are available to rangers.

Martial Technique
Optional 2nd-level Ranger feature, which replaces the Spellcasting feature.
You have honed a particular technique which you have found to be beneficial in combat. You have learned two Battle Master Maneuvers and gain a number of Technique Dice equal to your proficiency modifier. This die is a d4. You regain one Technique Die when at the start of your turn if you are not incapacitated and can use a Technique Die in place of the Superiority Die for any Maneuver you know.

You learn one additional Maneuver and gain one additional Technique Die at Ranger levels 5, 9, 13, 17 and 20.

The progression corresponds to when Rangers unlock a new tier of spells.

Well this was an odd direction. I think... that I like this version of the feature for Rangers. I think that Fighters should have a version of Martial Technique which interacts with their hit dice, possibly granting them temporary hit points when they use it. Spending hit dice in place of superiority dice. It is a resource they'd rather not use, but which they can pull out when necessary. On the other hand, some might see this as a Barbarian trait. Whichever version you go with, I think this has potential. In the past I have wondered if a martial version of Concentration, related to martial stances, which grants something like a superiority dice is worth messing with. But none of those were finalized; I like the auto-recharging you have for Martial Technique and my own suggested "Recharge your technique die when you meet X requirement" solution.

Edited: removed "per round" from the technique die progression, cleaned up some text

Kane0
2022-01-17, 11:30 PM
I like the monk picking up maneuvers, being fueled by Ki and MA die feel like a natural fit. What feature would it replace?

Fighter getting bonus maneuvers feels less great a fit, given the BM subclass plus foghting style that already does that

Saelethil
2022-01-18, 10:38 AM
Great! Note that Enhanced Dodge has an extra penalty though. Also I have never heard of a Monk/Rogue multiclass, presumably due to features competing for that Bonus Action so I'm happy to promote that option. The primary goal is to give monks and fighters more actions with their turns, and I think making Disengage and the like worthwhile will help.

As for your original post, I like the idea of using a d4 for Martial Technique. Obviously stronger technique dice are more fun, but a d4 makes it easy to justify an additional class feature. I'm not sure how I feel about the die recharging automatically though. In the Book of Nine Swords, with the sublime classes, different initiators had their own ways to recover maneuvers so that they could not be spammed indefinitely. Changing the die recharge to "When you replace an attack with a Grapple/Shove," or "When you make a weapon attack under X conditions, roll your attack roll twice. If both rolls would be a hit, recover Y technique dice/maneuvers." Or use the dodge action to recover X technique dice.

You know what? I think that your Martial Technique ability in its current form would be great for a Spell-less Ranger. Perhaps on the Ranger, you have a number of Technique dice equal to your proficiency bonus... should you have the Battlemaster limit of only allowing one Maneuver per attack? Hmm. Comboing them would be fun, and could be balanced if A) dice are slow to recharge, B) dice are always small, and C) you carefully select which ones are available to rangers.

Martial Technique
Optional 2nd-level Ranger feature, which replaces the Spellcasting feature.
You have honed a particular technique which you have found to be beneficial in combat. You have learned two Battle Master Maneuvers and gain a number of Technique Dice equal to your proficiency modifier. This die is a d4. You regain one Technique Die when at the start of your turn if you are not incapacitated and can use a Technique Die in place of the Superiority Die for any Maneuver you know.

You learn one additional Maneuver and gain one additional Technique Die at Ranger levels 5, 9, 13, 17 and 20.

The progression corresponds to when Rangers unlock a new tier of spells.

Well this was an odd direction. I think... that I like this version of the feature for Rangers. I think that Fighters should have a version of Martial Technique which interacts with their hit dice, possibly granting them temporary hit points when they use it. Spending hit dice in place of superiority dice. It is a resource they'd rather not use, but which they can pull out when necessary. On the other hand, some might see this as a Barbarian trait. Whichever version you go with, I think this has potential. In the past I have wondered if a martial version of Concentration, related to martial stances, which grants something like a superiority dice is worth messing with. But none of those were finalized; I like the auto-recharging you have for Martial Technique and my own suggested "Recharge your technique die when you meet X requirement" solution.

Edited: removed "per round" from the technique die progression, cleaned up some text

Yeah, Rogue/Monk isn’t the most optimal most of the time, I was more talking about Fighter/Rogue. However, with the right DM, 2 levels of Rogue for Expertise and Cunning Action can be an incredible boost for a Monk.

As for a different recharge mechanic, it would work and could be really cool. I was just shooting for simplicity and reliability as it is replacing a fighting style. Something with a little more power and complexity would be another fun variant.

I hadn’t considered it as a patch for a spell-less Ranger but that’s an interesting idea. How differently would you expect it to play than a Rouge that took expertise in perception and survival with the Battle Master subclass ported over (after thinking for 5 seconds I realized that they would play very differently)? Regardless, I think it could be a fun addition to the game.

I generally like the idea of there being more uses for hit die but I agree that it does feel more like a Barbarian feature. It could make for an interesting Barbarian sub class actually.

I’m not sure if they were yours but I have seen posts about stances that required concentration and they looked pretty cool and would be another interesting option for the game.


I like the monk picking up maneuvers, being fueled by Ki and MA die feel like a natural fit. What feature would it replace?

Fighter getting bonus maneuvers feels less great a fit, given the BM subclass plus foghting style that already does that

I wasn’t imagining Monastic Practice replacing anything. I thought it would at first but looking through the Monk features I didn’t see anything that could be given up and thought that the ki cost would be enough to offset it. If I needed to replace a feature I would probably replace Deflect Missiles though.

For Martial Technique I wanted something more reliable than a 1/SR ability and I figured that a small die and limited uses per turn would be a reasonable trade off for what other fighting styles give. It does start strong but by tier 2 it balances out. I get felling like it steps on the Battle Master’s toes a bit but as they are separate abilities they would stack and Battle Masters will still know way more maneuvers than any other fighter, making the non combat maneuvers more enticing. This gives them the option to keep doing their things even when they’re out of Superiority Dice or if they need to save their larger dice for a bigger fight. Basically they would become the “Basic Fighter but Better!” which seems like what they were going fore with Champion.
Anyway, I’m always seeing (and have been convinced by) people on here saying that all Fighters should have maneuvers and I thought this would be a simple way of doing that while improving the Battle Master, even if it makes them feel less unique.

Rilmani
2022-01-18, 01:55 PM
I hadn’t considered it as a patch for a spell-less Ranger but that’s an interesting idea. How differently would you expect it to play than a Rouge that took expertise in perception and survival with the Battle Master subclass ported over (after thinking for 5 seconds I realized that they would play very differently)? Regardless, I think it could be a fun addition to the game.

Huh. Now you've got me interested in a version of Rogue which uses these dice (or superiority dice) instead of Sneak Attack. This version of rogue is expected to use to use their bonus action to make a second attack (light weapon or some ranged setup) to keep up in damage, HOWEVER when they use their bonus action for a Cunning Action they either recover additional Technique Dice orrrr they increase the die size of their Technique Dice. Pathfinder rogues have Combat Tricks they can use constantly or a certain number of times per day. I could see a superiority die rogue working out, with Assassin being the only one that gets sneak attack dice.

Anyway, Ranger (battlemaster subclass)! So the differences between a technique die user (who regains a die once per turn in either of our creations) and a Battlemaster superiority die user aren't that large. The difference exists and is noticeable for cases like Grappling Strike, Ambush, and Parry, but fights are short. If a fight extends long enough for a battlemaster to use 4+ dice THEN ends, then they should come out ahead in survivability over Technique Die ranger in terms of survivability and damage dealt. If it lasts longer though, then Technique Die ranger should come out ahead. The longer the fight, the more stingy a battlemaster becomes with their final dice, whereas the Technique Die ranger can use theirs with abandon. I think on a ranged attacker with the Sharpshooter feat (and therefore taking a penalty on every attack), battlemaster comes out ahead.


I generally like the idea of there being more uses for hit die but I agree that it does feel more like a Barbarian feature. It could make for an interesting Barbarian sub class actually.

I’m not sure if they were yours but I have seen posts about stances that required concentration and they looked pretty cool and would be another interesting option for the game.

I'm pretty sure I haven't posted anything about stances in the last few months, so I would dearly appreciate a link to whatever thread(s) you saw. Sounds interesting. I vaguely recall seeing a barbarian caster subclass which might have used hit dice to generate spell-energy to cast while raging? But I have seen far more Pact Magic barbarians than that, so I probably can't find it again.



For Martial Technique I wanted something more reliable than a 1/SR ability and I figured that a small die and limited uses per turn would be a reasonable trade off for what other fighting styles give. It does start strong but by tier 2 it balances out. I get felling like it steps on the Battle Master’s toes a bit but as they are separate abilities they would stack and Battle Masters will still know way more maneuvers than any other fighter, making the non combat maneuvers more enticing. This gives them the option to keep doing their things even when they’re out of Superiority Dice or if they need to save their larger dice for a bigger fight. Basically they would become the “Basic Fighter but Better!” which seems like what they were going fore with Champion.
Anyway, I’m always seeing (and have been convinced by) people on here saying that all Fighters should have maneuvers and I thought this would be a simple way of doing that while improving the Battle Master, even if it makes them feel less unique.

I agree with this logic. Giving all fighters one maneuver option and one die would mean giving battlemasters one rechargable-during-combat d4 maneuver die. I'd compare that to the Abjuration wizard ability to recharge their ward of hit points by casting an abjuration spell; regular wizards still have Shield and other options for temp hit points, but Abjuration wizards (or in the above case, battlemasters) are one step higher on the totem pole in this facet.


I have one last question which you might be able to help me with. I want to make a variant of the Mind Sliver cantrip. As a class feature for some martial class. Sort of like the Shove and Grapple abilities, this would be a combat option instead of making a typical attack. But it still does a bit of damage. Still has the 1d4 penalty on next saving throw within 1 round. Change the saving throw to Constitution? Dexterity? Change it to a weapon attack which replaces damage dealt with something lower? Should it require a weapon, or would this work as a Stunning Strike-adjacent ability? Should this be restricted to melee range (doing whatever with reach weapons) or could it work with ranged weapons? Do you think this could work as a Superiority/Technique Die ability, instead of X times per rest? "When you take the attack action, you can replace one of your attacks with X. A target within X range rolls Y saving throw, on a failure they take Z damage (not psychic) and subtract 1d4 from the next saving throw it makes before the end of your next turn." Replacing the d4 with a superiority die seems quite strong though, UNLESS technique dice are always d4 or d6 in size.

I might end up looking into two variants of Mind Sliver, with one penalizing the first subsequent saving throw and the other penalizing the first upcoming ability check (skill check) made by the target.

Kane0
2022-01-18, 08:40 PM
I wasn’t imagining Monastic Practice replacing anything. I thought it would at first but looking through the Monk features I didn’t see anything that could be given up and thought that the ki cost would be enough to offset it. If I needed to replace a feature I would probably replace Deflect Missiles though.

Probably one of the three initial Ki powers you get at level 2 if I were to pick. Giving up flurry, SotW or Patient Def seems like a fair trade for two maneuvers and the ability to use Ki on them. Same ki cost too.



For Martial Technique I wanted something more reliable than a 1/SR ability and I figured that a small die and limited uses per turn would be a reasonable trade off for what other fighting styles give. It does start strong but by tier 2 it balances out. I get felling like it steps on the Battle Master’s toes a bit but as they are separate abilities they would stack and Battle Masters will still know way more maneuvers than any other fighter, making the non combat maneuvers more enticing. This gives them the option to keep doing their things even when they’re out of Superiority Dice or if they need to save their larger dice for a bigger fight. Basically they would become the “Basic Fighter but Better!” which seems like what they were going fore with Champion.
Anyway, I’m always seeing (and have been convinced by) people on here saying that all Fighters should have maneuvers and I thought this would be a simple way of doing that while improving the Battle Master, even if it makes them feel less unique.

Fair, I haven't been particularly swayed by the 'all fighters should get maneuvers' thing myself, at least not without considerably adjusting the rest of the fighter class features to compensate. One maneuver you can spam once per turn could be roughly equal to a style, but I would perhaps shorten the list you can choose from to avoid the ones that would be too good when spammed freely (eg Brace/Riposte, Menacing, Precision, Trip) and encourage ones that you wouldn't ordinarily want to use (Commander's, Distract, Rally, etc).
I wouldn't scale it though (apart from die size maybe), just a one and done replacement for fighting style.