New Hobgoblin + Mastermind

[ZRN]

So based on a Youtube video of a leak from Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse (not posting link because I'm not sure if that's allowed here, but Google it), the Hobgoblin race is being revised to be basically like the UA "hobgoblin of the feywild," with an ability that lets you use the Help action as a bonus action PB times per long rest, AND gives a buff to the target (and sometimes yourself) ANY TIME you use the help action.

People had noted this as being very synergistic with the rogue Mastermind subclass, which lets you take the help action from range as a bonus action. So a hobgoblin mastermind can grant 1d6+PB temp hp to himself AND an ally within 30ft every turn as a bonus action. (Or boost his and an ally's speed by 10ft, or give the ally's target disadvantage on their next attack.)

To me this seems fun and powerful but probably not unreasonable. But then again they nerfed armorers for a very similar (and weaker) unlimited self-temp-hp-buff as a bonus action. So what do people think?

EDIT: I'm wrong, they specifically reworded the race to avoid this synergy. (See thread below.) Oh well!

[jaappleton]

So based on a Youtube video of a leak from Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse (not posting link because I'm not sure if that's allowed here, but Google it), the Hobgoblin race is being revised to be basically like the UA "hobgoblin of the feywild," with an ability that lets you use the Help action as a bonus action PB times per long rest, AND gives a buff to the target (and sometimes yourself) ANY TIME you use the help action.

People had noted this as being very synergistic with the rogue Mastermind subclass, which lets you take the help action from range as a bonus action. So a hobgoblin mastermind can grant 1d6+PB temp hp to himself AND an ally within 30ft every turn as a bonus action. (Or boost his and an ally's speed by 10ft, or give the ally's target disadvantage on their next attack.)

To me this seems fun and powerful but probably not unreasonable. But then again they nerfed armorers for a very similar (and weaker) unlimited self-temp-hp-buff as a bonus action. So what do people think?

Emphasis mine

Is that why my topic got moved to the Shadow Realm? :smallbiggrin:

To me this is great, because it resembles the 4e Warlord. This is something I've wanted in 5e since the beginning.

My only concern is... Is 5e meant to have such a character? That's up for debate, but I sure hope it can. Warlord was amazing.

Warlord was a Leader character, meaning support and buffing, but it did it as a martial class. No spells.

What is odd, however, is this replacing the existing Hobgoblin? I actually really liked the Volo's version. I think this one is outright superior, and.... ahem.... I heavily suspect that data used from things like D&D Beyond, Fantasy Grounds, etc was used to determine what races are utilized the least, and that could have influenced what got updated.

[Dr.Samurai]

Agreed. I like it and generally like leader mechanics like this. Would love to pair it with Sword of the Paruns, though longsword doesn't mesh very well with Rogue.

[stoutstien]

Emphasis mine

Is that why my topic got moved to the Shadow Realm? :smallbiggrin:

To me this is great, because it resembles the 4e Warlord. This is something I've wanted in 5e since the beginning.

My only concern is... Is 5e meant to have such a character? That's up for debate, but I sure hope it can. Warlord was amazing.

Warlord was a Leader character, meaning support and buffing, but it did it as a martial class. No spells.

What is odd, however, is this replacing the existing Hobgoblin? I actually really liked the Volo's version. I think this one is outright superior, and.... ahem.... I heavily suspect that data used from things like D&D Beyond, Fantasy Grounds, etc was used to determine what races are utilized the least, and that could have influenced what got updated.

I'm with you with the volo hobgoblin. It's one of those races that if I have the option to pick it I would choose it for just about any concept. L while the new one looks more powerful it is also a little bit more niche which I'm not necessarily happy about.

[Luccan]

I'm with you with the volo hobgoblin. It's one of those races that if I have the option to pick it I would choose it for just about any concept. L while the new one looks more powerful it is also a little bit more niche which I'm not necessarily happy about.

I'm not really sure how it's more niche. Is the original ability that got its name changed limited by pb now? Because otherwise this seems like a straight upgrade that's better for any class

[Seclora]

Ooh goodie! I was hoping it would make it to print so I could field my no-damage character build!

[Yakmala]

Unfortunately, I don't believe the Fey Hobgoblin buffs will work with the Mastermind help action, which is a shame.

From the text of Fey Gift: "Choose one of the options below each time you take the Help action with this trait".

So, a help action not triggered by this trait does not get to select one of the buffs (Hospitality/Passage/Spite). So, the Mastermind Help action will not work with these buffs.

EDIT: The text was updated from the UA:


UA: Choose one of the options below each time you take the Help action, whether as a bonus action or an action.
Updated: Choose one of the options below each time you take the Help action with this trait.



This is most certainly a nerf of the original version and one that impacts Masterminds, who really could have used the love.

So, the buffs can only be used PB# of times per long rest.

[stoutstien]

I'm not really sure how it's more niche. Is the original ability that got its name changed limited by pb now? Because otherwise this seems like a straight upgrade that's better for any class

Unless you have competition for your bonus action which most people do. I don't even think this is that great with the Mastermind because the ability to help as a bonus action is nice but they already have a pretty crowded list of things to do with that same action economy.

-I just realized they also keep the saving base ability then yes it's a straight upgrade.-

[Dr.Samurai]

Unfortunately, I don't believe the Fey Hobgoblin buffs will work with the Mastermind help action, which is a shame.

From the text of Fey Gift: "Choose one of the options below each time you take the Help action with this trait".

So, a help action not triggered by this trait does not get to select one of the buffs (Hospitality/Passage/Spite). So, the Mastermind Help action will not work with these buffs.
Interesting. I checked for this in the UA version and the text reads:

Starting at 3rd level, choose one of the options below each time you take the Help action, whether as a bonus action or an action:

So is the text you quoted from the video leak?

[ZRN]

Interesting. I checked for this in the UA version and the text reads:

Starting at 3rd level, choose one of the options below each time you take the Help action, whether as a bonus action or an action:

So is the text you quoted from the video leak?

The video. He's right, I'd missed that change in wording. Oh well!

Also,


I'm not really sure how it's more niche. Is the original ability that got its name changed limited by pb now? Because otherwise this seems like a straight upgrade that's better for any class

I think they got rid of the racial armor proficiency, which was good for some other builds (e.g. wizards).

[Yakmala]

Interesting. I checked for this in the UA version and the text reads:

Starting at 3rd level, choose one of the options below each time you take the Help action, whether as a bonus action or an action:

So is the text you quoted from the video leak?

The text has been updated since the UA. It's most certainly a nerf, and unfortunately, a nerf that impacts one of the least played Rogue sub-classes.

[Dr.Samurai]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/000/854/Darth_Vader_Noooo_Banner.jpg

[tokek]

I was allowed to try out the UA rules when they came out - on a Rune Knight Fighter.

The bonus action help has been less useful than I expected, you need a bonus action free and quite often you have better things to do with it. I'm really happy to see that the UA is making it into the book more or less intact and even happier to see that they get Fey Ancestry added but I would not suggest choosing Hobgoblin primarily for the Fey Gift ability unless your character build would otherwise be lacking in bonus action options.

Also as others have said I think from the blurry picture that they have tightened up the wording to prevent the Mastermind combo.

[Dr.Samurai]

Interesting Tokek, thank you for sharing.

My hunch is that it would be pretty useful, as you are granting advantage on an attack, as well as temp HP or a speed boost or enemy disadvantage.

It just strikes me as pretty tactical, whether you're helping the fighter land his hit and topping off his HP, or helping someone overcome a Slow effect or deal with difficult terrain, or negating a skirmisher's Sneak Attack.

It appeals to me, and seems like something I'd build my character around, though to your point I've never played a rogue in 5e before so I don't know what I'd be using my bonus action for, and I wouldn't center a build over proficiency uses per day.

[tokek]

Interesting Tokek, thank you for sharing.

My hunch is that it would be pretty useful, as you are granting advantage on an attack, as well as temp HP or a speed boost or enemy disadvantage.

It just strikes me as pretty tactical, whether you're helping the fighter land his hit and topping off his HP, or helping someone overcome a Slow effect or deal with difficult terrain, or negating a skirmisher's Sneak Attack.

It appeals to me, and seems like something I'd build my character around, though to your point I've never played a rogue in 5e before so I don't know what I'd be using my bonus action for, and I wouldn't center a build over proficiency uses per day.

It is pretty tactical but you need to still be within 5' to use it and being within 5' of a Fighter is not a place with a great survival rate anyway especially when sensibly trying to focus one enemy down at a time. You also need not to have a better use for your BA and often you will have something better like Giant's Might or Hex spell or whatever your build gives you as a combat BA buff. The Mastermind combo would have fixed that problem but I don't believe the final published race will enable that combo. I do use it and its good when I use it but I don't get to use it quite as often as I imagined I would and its not uncommon to get to the end of the adventuring day with uses of it remaining.

When I have used it I have used either Hospitality or Spite. I don't think I have ever used Passage.

I think it is a good racial feature, I've never regretted picking the race and will be happy to switch to the published version. But Fortune From the Many has been the real star attraction, that has been outstanding.

[stoutstien]

Interesting Tokek, thank you for sharing.

My hunch is that it would be pretty useful, as you are granting advantage on an attack, as well as temp HP or a speed boost or enemy disadvantage.

It just strikes me as pretty tactical, whether you're helping the fighter land his hit and topping off his HP, or helping someone overcome a Slow effect or deal with difficult terrain, or negating a skirmisher's Sneak Attack.

It appeals to me, and seems like something I'd build my character around, though to your point I've never played a rogue in 5e before so I don't know what I'd be using my bonus action for, and I wouldn't center a build over proficiency uses per day.

It's double. Plenty of frontliner clerics could safely toss out the help 2.0. honestly be more worried about people just spamming it out of combat for the THP.

[Melphizard]

Hmmm well if a warlord is a "Leader character, meaning support and buffing, but it did it as a martial class. No spells." let's see how close we get to this.


Race: New Hobgoblin (ofc for bonus action help)
Classes: 6 Watchers Paladin, 3 Mastermind Rogue, X Battlemaster fighter

Buffs for the party:
Aura of Protection - +cha to nearby ally saves
Watcher's Will - As an action, you can choose a number of creatures you can see within 30 feet of you, up to a number equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). For 1 minute, you and the chosen creatures have advantage on Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throws
Commander's Strike - Forgo an attack but give your ally a strike
Help Action - Bonus action + hobgoblin bonus
Master of Tactics - When you use the Help action to aid an ally in attacking a creature, the target of that attack can be within 30 feet of you, rather than 5 feet of you, if the target can see or hear you.

Overall result:
- Helps nearby allies with saves
- Can give party advantage on mental attribute saves
- Forgo an attack to let a party member (the rogue is the best choice) shine
- Bonus action help and can do so against enemies within 30 ft.

Suggested Tactic:
You are the party face with expertise in persuasion and buffs for days to assist in combat; however, unlike the traditional paladin, you do not smite for you have sworn to not use spells. For this reason, you use a ranged weapon to commander strike and help from a distance while providing buffs to the spellcasters in the back who likely are having spell fights with enemy wizards. Your maneuvers help in controlling the battlefield whilst simultaneously defending the weakest among you.

This allows you to defend the weakest (defensively) of the party while also letting whomever decided to do melee have their time in the light. Overall build a part from this would best be a Dexadin though your stats are MAD as heck (requiring strength, con, cha, and dex) but with the fighter extra ASI you'll somewhat manage. You're certainly not the strongest hitter in combat but your party will certainly appreciate the advantage and bonuses you provide.

[Khrysaes]

I loved this race in UA, and am still using it as one of my characters.

He is a 5 Samurai Fighter/3 Mastermind Rogue with the Tandem Tactician Feat also from UA

It's great providing help at 45 feet to two allies.

Edit: also of note is an Order cleric with Silvery Barbs, Healing Word, and the Sword of Paruns
which pairs well with Rogue levels.

[tokek]

I don't think my Hobgoblin Rune Knight does too bad a job of delivering some of the Warlord flavour. He is about to level up to 7 at which point he will have:

Bonus Action Help with the added benefits
Bonus action activate Storm Rune to hand out Advantage/Disadvantage with Reaction for a minute. This includes saves.
Runic Shield re-rolls as a Reaction
Cloud Rune redirect an attack as a Reaction
Fire Rune for some control (I realised early on that his Reaction would be as overloaded as his Bonus Action, Stone Rune would have fitted the theme better)
Fortune from The Many for Action-free boosts, definitely always hold at least one back to use on a Save

The focus is more on saving the party from attack rolls than from saving roll effects but Storm Rune does help with that and the Hobgoblin himself can use Fortune from the many to try to shrug off save throw effects. He will now have advantage on Charm effects which helps a lot and at level 9 will have Indomitable. Its important that your character doing all the buffs does not have their own action economy messed up or else its all negated.

He has Lucky as a bonus feat so I'm at a loss for what to put on him at level 8 as his ability scores are where they need to be already. I might fix his problem with getting in range for the Help action with Mobile Feat. Or I might take a feat to grab 2 manouvres and a superiority dice, only getting one use per SR really hurts but they are action-economy-free and that really matters on this character.

[Lavaeolus]

It is pretty tactical but you need to still be within 5' to use it and being within 5' of a Fighter is not a place with a great survival rate anyway especially when sensibly trying to focus one enemy down at a time. You also need not to have a better use for your BA and often you will have something better like Giant's Might or Hex spell or whatever your build gives you as a combat BA buff. The Mastermind combo would have fixed that problem but I don't believe the final published race will enable that combo.

For what it's worth, on first reading I'd allow a Hobgoblin using Fey Gift to benefit from the Mastermind's increased range. The new Hobgoblin is still using the Help action: "You can use this trait to take the Help action as a bonus action..." It's just laying on a few extra effects when it does so.

The Mastermind, meanwhile, offers a general buff to the Help action when aiding an ally in an attack:

Additionally, when you use the Help action to aid an ally in attacking a creature, the target of that attack can be within 30 feet of you, rather than within 5 feet of you, if the target can see or hear you.

So while you can only use Fey Gift and its buffs a Proficiency Bonus amount of times, there's still some synergy there.

[ZRN]

For what it's worth, on first reading I'd allow a Hobgoblin using Fey Gift to benefit from the Mastermind's increased range. The new Hobgoblin is still using the Help action: "You can use this trait to take the Help action as a bonus action..." It's just laying on a few extra effects when it does so.

The Mastermind, meanwhile, offers a general buff to the Help action when aiding an ally in an attack:


So while you can only use Fey Gift and its buffs a Proficiency Bonus amount of times, there's still some synergy there.

Yeah, but there's also a lot of anti-synergy in that your race and subclass both have "help as a bonus action" as a major component. Like, even if you specifically want to play a hobgoblin rogue who helps his allies in melee, a swashbuckler might be a better choice - you get to use bonus-action help when you want to AND you can sneak attack in melee more easily, taunt enemies with Panache, etc.

[Lavaeolus]

Yeah, but there's also a lot of anti-synergy in that your race and subclass both have "help as a bonus action" as a major component. Like, even if you specifically want to play a hobgoblin rogue who helps his allies in melee, a swashbuckler might be a better choice - you get to use bonus-action help when you want to AND you can sneak attack in melee more easily, taunt enemies with Panache, etc.

Also true, yeah.

[stoutstien]

I just got around to reading the new hobgoblin in it's entirely. So it looks like the fey gift bonus at lv 5 only applies when you use help with the same feature and saving face is reduced to 3. As much as I like the fey connection I'll stick with the old option.

[Amechra]

Is it just me, or do they seem to hate any feature that boosts the Help action?

[tokek]

I just got around to reading the new hobgoblin in it's entirely. So it looks like the fey gift bonus at lv 5 only applies when you use help with the same feature and saving face is reduced to 3. As much as I like the fey connection I'll stick with the old option.

I have been playing the Fey Gift that way anyway (by DM agreement).

The change to Fortune for the Many is a pretty serious nerf. On the other hand I think it may be a fair one, this feature is incredibly powerful. Its like the Artificer Flash of Genius (one of the best features of that class) as a racial feature.

[stoutstien]

I have been playing the Fey Gift that way anyway (by DM agreement).

The change to Fortune for the Many is a pretty serious nerf. On the other hand I think it may be a fair one, this feature is incredibly powerful. Its like the Artificer Flash of Genius (one of the best features of that class) as a racial feature.

It's probably a fair trade but that +5 with no action cost is what makes hobgoblin uniquely good regardless of PC concept which is what more races should strive for. Too many pigeonholed features leading to redundancy or failing to be applicable.

Not a huge fan of how they are adding these racial changes but a lot of them are for the better in this regard.

[tokek]

It's probably a fair trade but that +5 with no action cost is what makes hobgoblin uniquely good regardless of PC concept which is what more races should strive for. Too many pigeonholed features leading to redundancy or failing to be applicable.

Not a huge fan of how they are adding these racial changes but a lot of them are for the better in this regard.

This is true but up to +5 is a lot. Add a couple of familiars into a party and you reliably can draw on that +5 and it sort of negates a number of issues - especially on a tanky character who is only really vulnerable to save effects. I do think a limit of +3 will feel fairer if that is what is really in the new book (the text was a little blurry but I agree that I think this is what it said).

As for the help bonus action, its still really solid if you have a bonus action free to use it. PB per day feels really low but in practice not as bad as I expected if you put it on a character who is otherwise solid with good options.

[stoutstien]

This is true but up to +5 is a lot. Add a couple of familiars into a party and you reliably can draw on that +5 and it sort of negates a number of issues - especially on a tanky character who is only really vulnerable to save effects. I do think a limit of +3 will feel fairer if that is what is really in the new book (the text was a little blurry but I agree that I think this is what it said).

As for the help bonus action, its still really solid if you have a bonus action free to use it. PB per day feels really low but in practice not as bad as I expected if you put it on a character who is otherwise solid with good options.

Hard to say really until we can see the +3 and +5 in real play due the lack of any other point of comparison. Same for the recharge change from 1/SR to PB/LR which is IMO worse because now it's somewhat spamable which takes away from how cool it felt to use in a clutch situation.

[tokek]

Hard to say really until we can see the +3 and +5 in real play due the lack of any other point of comparison. Same for the recharge change from 1/SR to PB/LR which is IMO worse because now it's somewhat spamable which takes away from how cool it felt to use in a clutch situation.

PB per LR is definitely stronger, no doubt about that. I was playing the UA which already had that and its stronger than once per SR.

The difference between +3 and +5 might simply never matter in a typical party if they have no pets. My character has mostly been in a situation where +4 or even +5 is achievable and its been very strong indeed.

[Aalbatr0ss]

I’ve been playing a hobgoblin armorer artificer (L9) and had been considering taking some rogue levels / maybe doing Mastermind. His style is mostly melee support in guardian, but I would have switched to infiltrator for this.

He doesn’t have much to do with bonus action. The homunculus kept getting dropped in one shot, so I switched away from using this infusion.

We have a big group (6) with lots of big-map fights. DM has agreed I can switch to new hobgoblin once the book comes out.

Part of the reason I was considering the multiclass is he has so little to do with his bonus action. After the update, I’m more likely just to stay artificer or take some wizard levels. Although doubling down with mastermind and helping the hexadin, monk, or rune knight every turn still seems pretty appealing.