StP Erudite and Truenamer are now the same class, what happens next?

[Jervis]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/727337386115334154/931431489902637096/DnD-meme-3-5-fusion-Erudite-Truenamer-Factotum.png
I can't be the only one who thinks the iconic factotum and iconic truenamer look like each other, right?

Yeah you read the title. This isn't a gestalt or weird meme build that theurges both, or a class that does both, i'm talking about a theoretical class that has the up and downsides of both to see where exactly it might fall powerwise. The near unlimited access to every spell, psionic power, and for the sake of argument truename effect in the game with the ability to pick which ones you want to use on the fly that makes StP tier 0, with the limited choices of what things you can use (maxing out at 11 of your infinite number of things a day), XP draining acquisition of of said infinite things, and sucky poorly scaling skill check based use of said infinite number of thins. For the sake of this discussion assume power/spell level maximums are based on Erudite and require a (insert skill name here) check DC 15 +double your level to use and still consume resources. (for the sake of sanity assume DC doesn't increase if you burn 2 more PP than minimum). Utterances follow the same scaling as Truenamer to determine when you can grab them and burn points depending on relative level with the same 2 extra pp to not increase DC level.

Since we're assuming all the upsides and downsides of both (except in regards to utterance maximum, assume that's increased via the same method as Erudite's normal spell stealing), how might this hypothetical class perform and what changes would you make to this extremely halfbaked idea? What happens when Infinite Power meets Infinite Suck, when tier 0 meets tier 9?

[Feantar]

I think it would be really powerful. Truenamer doesn't suck just because of the horribly scaling DC, the powers suck as well (Except the Gate one, that's insane). If you could get spells instead, that you could cast as many times as you felt like it with a simple increase in DC, then that turns it on it's head. You can even avoid the creature scaling DC by picking spells that don't technically target creatures; from blasting AoEs to Summoning Spells.

Scratch that, for some reason I thought you wouldn't burn PPs. If you are it would be strictly worse than StP Erudite, but still pretty versatile.

[RandomPeasant]

Honestly it's probably still pretty bad. Without huge investment in skill checks, the Truenamer just doesn't do anything. It doesn't matter if the things you aren't doing are very powerful or very weak, the issue is that you can't do them effectively. Especially since the details of the setup lock out the most obvious path by which the class would be broken (spamming fixed-DC utility/non-combat spells).

I mean, look at it this way. If you could spend a bunch of resources to be able to pop any spell you want out of a skill check, would you rather be this weird hybrid that just gets to do that, or a Rogue/Beguiler/Artificer that gets to do functionally the same thing with UMD and still has a full class worth of other stuff?

[Gnaeus]

Honestly it's probably still pretty bad. Without huge investment in skill checks, the Truenamer just doesn't do anything. It doesn't matter if the things you aren't doing are very powerful or very weak, the issue is that you can't do them effectively. Especially since the details of the setup lock out the most obvious path by which the class would be broken (spamming fixed-DC utility/non-combat spells).

I mean, look at it this way. If you could spend a bunch of resources to be able to pop any spell you want out of a skill check, would you rather be this weird hybrid that just gets to do that, or a Rogue/Beguiler/Artificer that gets to do functionally the same thing with UMD and still has a full class worth of other stuff?

Functionally, though, an optimized truenamer (and really, I think we are talking about an optimization exercise here) doesn't have too much trouble hitting their DCs. Skills are pretty easy to pump. You make a couple of custom items of truenaming +10 of different bonus types, or a wand of wieldskill and an item familiar. Maybe dip a single marshall level to add cha. It won't be unlimited use but you can get quite a few more uses than a typical tier 1 gets. Truenamer isn't bad because DCs are unreachable. It's bad because they are unreachable at low op and at high op the results aren't worth the effort because they really don't have a T1 list. The functional limit will still be the pp expense, not hitting the check DC. So it is some kind of odd blaster 1-6. 7+ it spams polymorph or planar ally/binding. Coupled with psionicly rewriting your character sheet? Low T1/high T2

[Gemini476]

Skill checks in 3.5 are a horrible way to balance things, because there's fundamentally three results:

The character is unoptimized towards the check, and fails the check 100% of the time.
The character is halfway optimized towards the check, and is probably somewhere in the 25%-75% range.
The character is optimized towards the check, and never fails it.

The first is terrible, of course, but the third makes it an awful design decision as well because you just made a class with at-will spellcasting that's supposedly balanced around not being at-will. The second is the "intended" case, probably, but the wild variance in skill checks and bonuses to them makes that also a bad idea.

What you really want is either some kind of flat chance of success, or a check based on something that is more outside the player's control - for example, the caster level check to beat spell resistance. (That's pumpable these days, of course, but you get the gist of it. Maybe a straight level check or level+stat.)

As for the Truenamer itself, it's not "Tier 9"? Even the old JaronK tier list begrudgingly put it at Tier 4 when optimized, and at level 20 it suddenly jumps up to become Mr. At-Will Gate.

[RandomPeasant]

It's bad because they are unreachable at low op and at high op the results aren't worth the effort because they really don't have a T1 list. The functional limit will still be the pp expense, not hitting the check DC. So it is some kind of odd blaster 1-6. 7+ it spams polymorph or planar ally/binding. Coupled with psionicly rewriting your character sheet? Low T1/high T2

The results aren't worth the effort because there are better things you can do with highly optimized skill checks. The DC to use any ability against level-appropriate opposition as a 10th level Truenamer is 35. For a DC 35 UMD check, you can activate a staff of holy word as a 15th level Cleric, which will leave level-appropriate opposition paralyzed for a d10's worth of minutes, with no save. And since a Rogue can have Skill Mastery at that point (with the Artificer getting it soon after), their effective bonus is going to be higher than yours in many cases. And, sure, there are ways that PP are a better resource to spend than GP, but there are also ways they are a worse one, and the UMD-er is going to have an entire character worth of stuff in addition to a better version of your only shtick.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How are unique powers per day fitting in with this? Are you limited by powers and spells known, UPPD, power point limits, manifester level limits, and skill checks? Because that seems to be a rather massive fustercluck to try to keep track of. And it's almost unusable at low levels, no matter how much effort you put into optimizing it. Honestly, 1 power usable per day at level 1 with virtually nothing else to its name (not even level 0 powers) is a terrible thing to do to a class, and all this other stuff tacked on will make it far worse.

[RandomPeasant]

Yeah, StP Erudite (like Artificer, and to a degree Archivist) gets too much credit on account of scaling with optimization to a basically unlimited degree. At low levels, or low levels of optimization, or just with a DM who won't let you brainlick your way to the spells you want, it's already kind of mediocre. Having to juggle skill checks on top of that makes me question why you'd ever bother. It's not like the infinite power a TO Wizard (or even TO Sorcerer) gets is somehow "less infinite" than what the StP Truenamudite gets, and those guys are way less of a PITA to play.

[Jervis]

How are unique powers per day fitting in with this? Are you limited by powers and spells known, UPPD, power point limits, manifester level limits, and skill checks? Because that seems to be a rather massive fustercluck to try to keep track of. And it's almost unusable at low levels, no matter how much effort you put into optimizing it. Honestly, 1 power usable per day at level 1 with virtually nothing else to its name (not even level 0 powers) is a terrible thing to do to a class, and all this other stuff tacked on will make it far worse.

This assumes best and worst of both so 11 cap.


Yeah, StP Erudite (like Artificer, and to a degree Archivist) gets too much credit on account of scaling with optimization to a basically unlimited degree. At low levels, or low levels of optimization, or just with a DM who won't let you brainlick your way to the spells you want, it's already kind of mediocre. Having to juggle skill checks on top of that makes me question why you'd ever bother. It's not like the infinite power a TO Wizard (or even TO Sorcerer) gets is somehow "less infinite" than what the StP Truenamudite gets, and those guys are way less of a PITA to play.

Yeah it’s mostly just a though exorcise for how this concept works and how changing it would make it better or worse


The results aren't worth the effort because there are better things you can do with highly optimized skill checks. The DC to use any ability against level-appropriate opposition as a 10th level Truenamer is 35. For a DC 35 UMD check, you can activate a staff of holy word as a 15th level Cleric, which will leave level-appropriate opposition paralyzed for a d10's worth of minutes, with no save. And since a Rogue can have Skill Mastery at that point (with the Artificer getting it soon after), their effective bonus is going to be higher than yours in many cases. And, sure, there are ways that PP are a better resource to spend than GP, but there are also ways they are a worse one, and the UMD-er is going to have an entire character worth of stuff in addition to a better version of your only shtick.

Yeah it’s kind of crazy how spell and item choices make a character better than something that should in theory have better options

[Unavenger]

One is finnicky, weak for a full-"spellcaster" but fine compared to third-casters and below, and situationally broken depending on what you do with it; one is strong for a full-"spellcaster" (and is de facto an actual spellcaster to boot) and probably broken irrespective of what you do with it: I can't really visualise how this hybrid thinks it's working but it probably causes everyone headaches and then is either strong-but-fine or hilariously gamebreaking depending on how you play it.

[Jervis]

One is finnicky, weak for a full-"spellcaster" but fine compared to third-casters and below, and situationally broken depending on what you do with it; one is strong for a full-"spellcaster" (and is de facto an actual spellcaster to boot) and probably broken irrespective of what you do with it: I can't really visualise how this hybrid thinks it's working but it probably causes everyone headaches and then is either strong-but-fine or hilariously gamebreaking depending on how you play it.

I’m picturing a “String Mage” that alters reality on the level of quantum strings with use rope checks

[Bonzai]

I have played a truenamer from lvl 1 to 15. DC's weren't an issue after a lvl or two. The main issue is that you can only effect 1 target at a time with an utterance until lvl 17. As a DM I would full on allow a feat that would let the truenamer to research and create true nicknames for specific groups... such as his party, following the increased difficulty modifiers that speak to the masses does. Once they are able to do that, then they become much more interesting, and can contribute a lot more.