Conjure Chwinga

[prototype00]

So more of an FYI than anything as I don’t see it being brought up. You can use Conjure Minor Elemental to summon 8 Chwingas which are super powerful because they can give you Supernatural Charms!!!

…Is what I would say if I wasn’t aware of the DMs choice nature of the spell.

But what if I told you there was a means to massage the DMs choice down to only Chwingas?

Let’s look at the text of Conjure Minor Elemental:


You summon Elementals that appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range. You choose one the following options for what appears.

• One elemental of Challenge rating 2 or lower

• Two Elementals of Challenge rating 1 or lower

• Four Elementals of Challenge rating 1/2 or lower

• Eight Elementals of Challenge rating 1/4 or lower.

An elemental summoned by this spell disappears when it drops to 0 Hit Points or when the spell ends.

The summoned Creatures are friendly to you and your Companions. Roll Initiative for the summoned Creatures as a group, which has its own turns. They obey any verbal commands that you issue to them (no action required by you). If you don't issue any commands to them, they defend themselves from Hostile Creatures, but otherwise take no Actions. The DM has the creatures' Statistics.

The parts that I have bolded are the key, technically if you limit the number of unoccupied squares you can see to two (a small inn room for example), and then summon 8 CR 1/4 or less elementals, by the text of the spell and the general rules surrounding summoning, your DM has to pick an option that will fit (you cannot summon creatures inside of other creatures) and the only tiny elemental that fits the bill (has to be tiny to fit 4 to a square) is the Chwinga. (You also cannot summon things into the air, so don’t worry about the height of the ceiling)

The DM does have a choice between arctic or jungle Chwingas, but both have nice Supernatural Gifs to give.

Common disclaimer applies, use game rules responsibly and let your DM know/discuss ahead of time.

I cannot claim to be the originator of this, I found it on a website linked from pack tactics that I can’t find right now but will append when I can.

[Captain Panda]

The parts that I have bolded are the key, technically if you limit the number of unoccupied squares you can see to two (a small inn room for example), and then summon 8 CR 1/4 or less elementals, by the text of the spell and the general rules surrounding summoning, your DM has to pick an option that will fit (you cannot summon creatures inside of other creatures) and the only tiny elemental that fits the bill (has to be tiny to fit 4 to a square) is the Chwinga. (You also cannot summon things into the air, so don’t worry about the height of the ceiling)


8 steam mephits appear. They're squeezing.

Creatures can squeeze.

Also since you're in such a cramped space with steam elementals, they appear all squeezed right behind you and the steam they emit burns you ass for trying to cheese out 8 chwinga. :D

[prototype00]

8 steam mephits appear. They're squeezing.

Creatures can squeeze.

Also since you're in such a cramped space with steam elementals, they appear all squeezed right behind you and the steam they emit burns you ass for trying to cheese out 8 chwinga. :D

That generally falls afoul of:


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

If you summon two things into the same square that can’t support them, they aren’t squeezing. You are summoning something into another creature’s space inside of them. (Though, of course, if the DM rules that squeezing of summoned creatures into spaces that can’t support them is kosher, boy oh boy do I have a lot more good advice for you!)

[Unoriginal]

You cannot force the DM to choose between jungle and thundra Chwingas with exact-words exploitation shenanigans.

You cannot make the DM do anything with exact-words exploitation shenanigans. Nor with any exploits. Nor with any shenanigans.

Either the DM allows you to summon Chwingas, in which case shenanigans are not needed. Or the DM does not allow it, in which case nothing will make it happens no matter what people come up with.

The idea that the Dungeon Master is under the power of the rules is sorely incorrect. The DM is the one who dictates to the rules, not the other way around.

[prototype00]

You cannot force the DM to choose between jungle and thundra Chwingas with exact-words exploitation shenanigans.

You cannot make the DM do anything with exact-words exploitation shenanigans. Nor with any exploits. Nor with any shenanigans.

Either the DM allows you to summon Chwingas, in which case shenanigans are not needed. Or the DM does not allow it, in which case nothing will make it happens no matter what people come up with.

The idea that the Dungeon Master is under the power of the rules is sorely incorrect.

I’m not saying I can make the DM do anything (that’s Rule 0), I’m just saying that by the text of the spell and the rules of summoning this is what should happen.

If the DM wants to rule against that, I can’t stop them.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I have an even simpler response that doesn't rely on wording at all.

"Chwingas don't exist; this isn't Faerun and you know it. And even if it was, I don't own the sources they come from, so they're not an option. And that was clearly stated up front--the only valid options are the ones from sources I own or things I made up myself. Choose different squares, a different spell, or know that the spell will fail."

A second attempt at cheese like this will result in a heart-to-heart "let's talk about whether this is the right game for you. After all, I'm allergic to dairy."

[Unoriginal]

I’m not saying I can make the DM do anything (that’s Rule 0), I’m just saying that by the text of the spell and the rules of summoning this is what should happen.

If the DM wants to rule against that, I can’t stop them.

So you admit that the




But what if I told you there was a means to massage the DMs choice down to only Chwingas?

part of your OP is incorrect and that there is no mean to do this?

[prototype00]

I have an even simpler response that doesn't rely on wording at all.

"Chwingas don't exist; this isn't Faerun and you know it. And even if it was, I don't own the sources they come from, so they're not an option. And that was clearly stated up front--the only valid options are the ones from sources I own or things I made up myself. Choose different squares, a different spell, or know that the spell will fail."

A second attempt at cheese like this will result in a heart-to-heart "let's talk about whether this is the right game for you. After all, I'm allergic to dairy."

Indeed true. Like I said the DM can rule against it. (Though in AL where the legal sources are explicitly laid out, I’d imagine you could just point to the approved book list, same as when your Druid wants to shift into/summon a critter from Book of Jungle Rot)

Edit: Let me make myself clear. The DM can always choose to ignore the rules and choose Rule 0. I never disagree and always support that.

If your response is “appeal to Rule 0”, I have nothing to discuss with you because I agree with you.

Edit the second: Ah, found the original link:

https://tabletopbuilds.com/spell-spotlight-conjure-minor-elementals/.

I’m just about done discussing this, if you have further comments. You can take it up with the originator of the idea.

[Captain Panda]

That generally falls afoul of:

If you summon two things into the same square that can’t support them, they aren’t squeezing.


Actually, they are squeezing. You can squeeze into a space one size smaller than your own, it just carries penalties.

Phb, 192. "A creature can squeeze through a space that is large enough for a creature one size smaller than it. "

Mephits are small, so they can squeeze down to tiny.



You are summoning something into another creature’s space inside of them. (Though, of course, if the DM rules that squeezing of summoned creatures into spaces that can’t support them is kosher, boy oh boy do I have a lot more good advice for you!)

"A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet wide, for example"

No reason they won't fit into the cramped space. Though I am with Unoriginal, this sort of thing is why Rule Zero exists. I am a bit of a rules purist and respect RAW/RAI a lot more than most DMs, but this level of nonsense would get someone ejected from my game if they pressed it.

[Tanarii]

DM: "Never heard of them. Nothing in the MM fits. Your spell fails."

I mean, if a player is going to get all rules lawyer antagonistic, they probably need to make sure that a creature from an adventure splat is being used in the campaign first. :smallamused:

[stoutstien]

It's been a well known cheesey combo since ToA was printed and outside of the most highly tunes games it should be treated the same as sim/planar binding chaining.

[tokek]

I don't think this would fly with many DMs.

It has two failure points. The first is that the DM chooses what you get and they can always find ways around you trying to game that system.

The second is that the charm is always at DM discretion not yours, so the DM could let you pull the first part off and then say that the only charm any of them have is Feather Fall. So you have Feather Fall for a few days. Congratulations.

The only time I've been able to get a DM to let me have a Chwinga was with True Polymorph. But to be fair its not exactly breaking the game to get one charm in return for a 9th level slot and there are many more game-breaking things you can do with True Polymorph than that.

[Chronos]

If the way out of this is to get squeezing mephits, then you could just make the available spaces even smaller, so all that'll fit is squeezing chwingas. So that's not a way out of this.

On the other hand, you probably do need to worry about the height of the ceiling, since many elementals fly, and for a flying creature, "a surface that can support it" would include air. But of course, if you're building a custom enclosure to ensure the right-sized spaces, you could account for that.

The real way of dealing with this, as others have said, is for the DM to Just Say No.

[Segev]

Let's sidestep the question of "forcing" the DM to do something. Conjure elemental lets you pick what you conjure. Sure, it's a bit weird to conjure something of such low CR with a 5th level spell, but you can do it.

Now, you might argue that the DM chooses the kind of elemental, still, here, but that now brings us to the very serious problem that that means wizards can't actually conjure invisible stalkers. It also means that this spell becomes such a crap shoot of "DM may I" that it's probably not worth casting, since you can't even count on the default elemental showing up, and might get a single mephit. (I am not a fan of "balance it by making the DM the one who chooses what shows up," because it makes the DM have to be a non-impartial arbiter and winds up making him have to decide how "nice" or "generous" he's going to be. Especially if he knows WHY you cast the spell, but wants to be consistent with the spell not being an intelligent thing in its own right that chooses to mess with PCs.)

A 5th level spell slot is pretty expensive, but the charms chwinga can grant are also pretty nice.

[KorvinStarmast]

The idea that the Dungeon Master is under the power of the rules is sorely incorrect. The DM is the one who dictates to the rules, not the other way around. "The rules server the game, the game doesn't server the rules" is I think a quote from one of the devs. (Insert DM for game and I think it captures your point).

"Chwingas don't exist; this isn't Faerun and you know it. {snip} After all, I'm allergic to dairy." That blue part got a RL chuckle out of me.
I mean, if a player is going to get all rules lawyer antagonistic, they probably need to make sure that a creature from an adventure splat is being used in the campaign first. :smallamused: Due diligence includes talking to other people. :smallsmile:

It's been a well known cheesey combo since ToA was printed and outside of the most highly tunes games it should be treated the same as sim/planar binding chaining. Indeed, and while I am not allergic to dairy, some cheese smells like limburger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburger) and some more like brie.

[JackPhoenix]

If the way out of this is to get squeezing mephits, then you could just make the available spaces even smaller, so all that'll fit is squeezing chwingas. So that's not a way out of this.

Squeezing allows you to fit in a space for a creature one size category smaller. There's no size category smaller than tiny, which means tiny creatures can't squeeze by RAW (and medium creatures don't get any benefits from squeezing, as small creatures take the same space). Come to think of it, that should propably go to the nonsensial mechanics thread....