Would You Use This Item?

[Xenothelm]

My party put in orders for some item upgrades in town. I (a battlemaster fighter5/assassin rogue3) was looking for something good against demons, as we had plans to take on a demon infested keep nearby. 3 blacksmiths were available to work on our gear (I went with the cheapest one). The rapier I got back from her read as such:

[Name removed] - Requires Attunement

When you hit a Demon with this weapon, the Demon takes an extra 2d8 damage. For the purpose of this weapon, "Demon" refers to any creature with the Demon tag. This damage cannot crit. In addition, when you hit a demon with the weapon, after dealing/applying damage, roll a d6 without any modifiers.. Consult the following table:

1: Demonic energies built up inside the weapon surge though your body. You take 1d8 magical piercing damage and are afflicted with a short-term madness. (see short-term madness table)

2 : Demonic energies built up inside the weapon surge though your body. You take 1d6 magical piercing damage and are afflicted with a short-term madness. (see short-term madness table)

3 : You take 1d6 magical piercing damage.

4: The Demon takes 1d4 magic piercing damage

5: The Demon takes 1d8 magical piercing damage.

6: The Demon takes 2d8+2 magical piercing damage.

Short-term Madness table can be referenced here (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Madness#content).

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So considering the d6, and the madness table, I've got about a ~13-17% chance to be hard CC'd with no way out besides a lesser restoration/calm emotions in the middle of combat.

Fair enough, I tried to get a good deal out of my commission, but I'm not sure why my character would ever use this again after the first mishap, or at all, since I'm aware of all this madness after attunement...is it not as bad as it looks?

[Unoriginal]

Do you roll once per turn, or once per hit?

If it's once per hit, I wouldn't use that item, or at least not with any character who can attack several times a turn. Having 50% chances of negative effects on the wielder is rough when you have Extra Attacks.

[DeadMech]

The best use for this sword is to somehow convince an enemy to take it and then have the party summon demons at them.

[Xenothelm]

The best use for this sword is to somehow convince an enemy to take it and then have the party summon demons at them.

This almost made me reconsider immediately selling LOL

[Xenothelm]

Do you roll once per turn, or once per hit?

If it's once per hit, I wouldn't use that item, or at least not with any character who can attack several times a turn. Having 50% chances of negative effects on the wielder is rough when you have Extra Attacks.

Definitely once per hit…

[Unoriginal]

Definitely once per hit…

Well at least now you know why the smith you went for is the cheapest.

[stoutstien]

Hard pass. Even of it didn't take attunement and I didn't have a magic weapon it's wouldn't be worth it.

[loki_ragnarock]

My party put in orders for some item upgrades in town. I (a battlemaster fighter5/assassin rogue3) was looking for something good against demons, as we had plans to take on a demon infested keep nearby. 3 blacksmiths were available to work on our gear (I went with the cheapest one). The rapier I got back from her read as such:

[Name removed] - Requires Attunement

When you hit a Demon with this weapon, the Demon takes an extra 2d8 damage. For the purpose of this weapon, "Demon" refers to any creature with the Demon tag. This damage cannot crit. In addition, when you hit a demon with the weapon, after dealing/applying damage, roll a d6 without any modifiers.. Consult the following table:

1: Demonic energies built up inside the weapon surge though your body. You take 1d8 magical piercing damage and are afflicted with a short-term madness. (see short-term madness table)

2 : Demonic energies built up inside the weapon surge though your body. You take 1d6 magical piercing damage and are afflicted with a short-term madness. (see short-term madness table)

3 : You take 1d6 magical piercing damage.

4: The Demon takes 1d4 magic piercing damage

5: The Demon takes 1d8 magical piercing damage.

6: The Demon takes 2d8+2 magical piercing damage.

Short-term Madness table can be referenced here (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Madness#content).

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So considering the d6, and the madness table, I've got about a ~13-17% chance to be hard CC'd with no way out besides a lesser restoration/calm emotions in the middle of combat.

Fair enough, I tried to get a good deal out of my commission, but I'm not sure why my character would ever use this again after the first mishap, or at all, since I'm aware of all this madness after attunement...is it not as bad as it looks?
I'd use it if it was literally the only magical weapon I had access to, but only because it's hard for me to justify a character running into a fight with demons knowing that he'd be incapable of meaningfully hurting them. Adventurers take risks, especially when the stakes are high.

Outside of that - as a player- no. Don't use that. You're basically guaranteed a short term madness by the end of a combat, if you were even to make it that long.
Have someone cast magic weapon. Better in every conceivable way.

EDIT
Actually, I'd use it against lycanthropes if I had nothing else. No problem. Perfectly serviceable for that purpose.

[Segev]

Between the extra damage not critting (not a huge deal, but still a considerable minus) and the pretty-much-guarantee that you will be screwed in any encounter where you actually want to use it, I would not use the item. I would definitely try to sell it. If I am not particularly ethical, I would try to upsell its pluses and downplay its minuses to get it treated as if it were worth the very rare rarity it probably would get from the writers of D&D, since they tend to evaluate based on the best case results.

But no, 50% chance of lots of damage on each hit balanced by 50% chance of nontrivial damage to you coupled to a slightly smaller chance of that damage also coming with "you're now out of the fight, but still in danger and possibly a threat to your own side" with EVERY HIT (meaning you WILL go mad most fights where this is useful)? Hard pass.

[KorvinStarmast]

[Name removed] - Requires Attunement

When you hit a Demon with this weapon, the Demon takes an extra 2d8 damage. For the purpose of this weapon, "Demon" refers to any creature with the Demon tag. This damage cannot crit. In addition, when you hit a demon with the weapon, after dealing/applying damage, roll a d6 without any modifiers.. Consult the following table:

1: Demonic energies built up inside the weapon surge though your body. You take 1d8 magical piercing damage and are afflicted with a short-term madness. (see short-term madness table)

2 : Demonic energies built up inside the weapon surge though your body. You take 1d6 magical piercing damage and are afflicted with a short-term madness. (see short-term madness table)

3 : You take 1d6 magical piercing damage.

4: The Demon takes 1d4 magic piercing damage

5: The Demon takes 1d8 magical piercing damage.

6: The Demon takes 2d8+2 magical piercing damage.

Short-term Madness table can be referenced here (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Madness#content).

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Too fiddly, and at the level where you are all playing, Tier 2, a rare or uncommon weapon is fine. Stick with the "good against demons" feature and leave it like that; get rid of that whole 'roll a d6 for random shenanigans' feature.

[Rukelnikov]

Well, the damage of the magical properties can be summed up as:

you take ~2 damage per hit against demons, they take 12, this can be a pretty good deal in my book, up to this point its good against enemies more powerful than you, and not good against fodder, but it has a place.

The problem is the short term madness is crippling:

6.66% of being paralyzed until damaged, still usable against high power enemies.
13.33% of being incapacitated, stunned or unconcious for 10 minutes!

I'd only use it if it was a battle against a single extremely powerful opponent, where I could expect to be downed early, so the extra damage in one or 2 hits is likely to be more useful than the downside will be penalizing, since I'd be down for the count in a couple rounds anyway.

The problem now is that it requires attunement, so, if you have atunnement slots to spare, attune to it, the option will be there, if you don't have then don't, you can keep it, and if you expect to be in a scenario where it could be useful, then attune to it the long rest before that.

[chainer1216]

I want my characters to live, so no, I wouldn't use this suicide sword.

[Kane0]

Not my first choice, but maybe with a rogue to avoid too many madness rolls.
Maybe if halfling luck or the lucky feat could apply to the d6 roll too, or if there was a save to avoid the madness

[Leon]

So a Vicious weapon with extra complexity. No thanks.

[Chaos Jackal]

If it was just a Vicious weapon against demons, I'd consider it. Leaning towards yes, even.

If it had a save attached to the madness, I'd also consider it. Leaning towards no unless I had a solid chance of making the save, but at least it'd be an option.

If it happened only once per minute or something, perhaps, in a pinch. I'd still like a save on the madness though. Still no if I had other options however.

As is, definitely not. 33% chance of no-save short-term madness on every hit? You'll be crazy within two rounds and completely insane within two combats unless your party keeps throwing restorations at you... or you die.

Give it to some self-righteous paladin you dislike or sell it for parts.

[Mastikator]

Wouldn't use this item for the same reason I wouldn't use fumble tables. They're fun the first time, annoying the second time and after- suck the fun out of the game.

[qube]

So considering the d6, and the madness table, I've got about a ~13-17% chance to be hard CC'd with no way out besides a lesser restoration/calm emotions in the middle of combat.
20% paralyzed, 10% incapacitated, 10% frightened, 5% eat something, 10% stun, 10% incapacitated.
(not even counting potential problems such as 10% attack nearest creature)

65% of the Short-Term Madness table removes you from combat, and each hit, you have a 1/3 chance to get this. Running it throught a calculator, that gets

1 hit: 22%
2 hits: +17% = 39%
3 hits: +13% = 52%
4 hits: +10% = 62%
5 hits: +8% = 70%
...

For me, hard pass for any combat I'd explect to last longer then a round ... which, frankly, is any combat that would be worth having the damage boost. And that's not even counting the RP aspect of it. Or the attunement. So, really really, REALLY, hard pass.

[Kane0]

Throw it at a demon to use against each other...

[Leon]

Find a way to recoup the costs and go to one of the better Blacksmiths

[Dualight]

I have to ask: are you sure that the blacksmith you went to isn't in league with the demons and trying to get you killed? Because this weapon really sounds like something a saboteur would give you, in hopes of you killing yourself with it.

[MoiMagnus]

When you hit a Demon with this weapon, the Demon takes an extra 2d8 damage. For the purpose of this weapon, "Demon" refers to any creature with the Demon tag. This damage cannot crit. In addition, when you hit a demon with the weapon, after dealing/applying damage, roll a d6 without any modifiers. Consult the following table:

Are you sure that's the effect? Because currently, this item is a disaster of game design, it is (1) objectively counterproductive (2) slow down the gameplay as rolling as resolving a table every turn is long (3) even without its drawback, quite expensive as it cost an attunement slot for a situational effect.

[And I don't understand why "this damage cannot crit" was needed]

I would think that the d6 is only rolled for critical hit, not normal hit. That would make it more reasonable. Even then, it's not worth the attunement slot, but you could argue for using it if you literally have no other magical weapon (even a +1 weapon is better).

And if the GM really intended to happen at every hit, I don't think the GM realise that a short term madness last at minimum for the entire combat. Just put a 1 round madness and that's already an absurdly high drawback (and I'd probably still don't use it if I have any other magical weapon).

[Sigreid]

This weapon is a bit like if you had a gun where every time you pulled the trigger a .45 slug came out the front and a .22 caliber slug came out the back at you.

[Segev]

This weapon is a bit like if you had a gun where every time you pulled the trigger a .45 slug came out the front and a .22 caliber slug came out the back at you.

With a roughly 15% chance per trigger pull of also injecting you with a powerful hallucinogen or knockout drug.

[CapnWildefyr]

I have to ask: are you sure that the blacksmith you went to isn't in league with the demons and trying to get you killed? Because this weapon really sounds like something a saboteur would give you, in hopes of you killing yourself with it.

Like maybe this is a plot clue: who is the blacksmith in league with? Maybe you have some other business in town before you head to the demonic tower...

Overall, not very useful. Did you once date the blacksmith's daughter? Leave her standing at the altar? Did you check the blacksmith for succubus tattoos, maybe one that says "I 'heart' evil" ? Half the players in my group would skewer the maker with it then take their money back. Best bet: refuse to finish paying for it, if you still have the chance, it's not what you commissioned, is it?

I guess there is one thing: if you have something to protect you from magically going insane, then in the short term, it might be tolerable for a little while. But I'd be half concerned it's really a caged demon or something. What did the others buy, by comparison?

[Burley]

I wouldn't use this weapon, because there's too big a risk. What does "go mad" mean? Am I going to take damage and spend my next turn attacking my party?

I'd use a weapon that gave a specific penalty, even a harsh one. But the randomness is something that I don't think would be fun and I, as a player, would never willingly use an item that takes my agency away, if I'm only "mad" for one turn. I want to control my character, every six seconds, please.

What if the sword does the extra 2d8 to Demons and the wielder takes that damage, too? Then, I know that I'll take 2d8 damage, but I'm not going to whiff the damage roll and get crazy punished for it.

[Unoriginal]

Throw it at a demon to use against each other...

Giving it to the demons' third-or-fourth-in-command could destroy a large chunk of the demon fortress's forces.

[TIPOT]

Hard pass. Even of it didn't take attunement and I didn't have a magic weapon it's wouldn't be worth it.
if you never use it against demons it'd be a magic weapon at least.

[J-H]

No, I would not. I avoid cursed items.

[Greywander]

I would ask your DM if they can give you something else instead. If they need a demonstration, ask for a test battle pitting the party against some demons and see how many rounds it takes to go stark raving mad. (Unless, you know, you roll really well.) It's one thing to have a powerful item with a drawback, but this is just a cursed item.

[KorvinStarmast]

Throw it at a demon to use against each other... That's a great plan.

With a roughly 15% chance per trigger pull of also injecting you with a powerful hallucinogen or knockout drug. That's the fun bit.

Giving it to the demons' third-or-fourth-in-command could destroy a large chunk of the demon fortress's forces. One can hope. :smallbiggrin:

[Unoriginal]

That's a great plan.
That's the fun bit.
One can hope. :smallbiggrin:

Just write "only the best demon can use this blade" on it.

[stoutstien]

if you never use it against demons it'd be a magic weapon at least.

Eh. Maybe but it looks like it's going to be a pretty large focus of the next arch so I don't think the risk is worth it. Seeing how there are other options available if they are willing to cough up the gold/time. they may be able to at least fix some of the issues with the sword that is basically cursed.

[Greywander]

To be clear, a cursed item isn't usually wholly detrimental. Often a cursed item is simply one with a severe drawback that makes it a gamble to use. The idea is that either (a) the person doesn't know it's cursed until it's too late (usually a cursed item can't be unattuned or gotten rid of), or (b) the benefits are enough to make the item tempting to use, despite the drawbacks. It's a gamble, but it's a gamble that the wielder is designed to lose eventually. An item can have a drawback without being cursed, and an item can be cursed and still be useful. Typically, an item is cursed by design, whereas a noncursed item with a drawback has that drawback as an unintended consequence of how the item works. In that sense, perhaps this isn't really a cursed item. It's just a bad item.

If I were to redesign this item here's a couple changes I would make:

I'd make it a +1 weapon that deals an extra 1d6 damage to fiends in general. This way, it will be useful for more than just demons.
Once on your turn when you hit a demon, you can deal an additional 2d6 damage to that demon.
When you use this trait to deal this extra damage to a demon, you have to roll on the table.
Only a roll of 1 gives a negative result. For example, you take 1d8 damage and are stunned for one round.
2, 3, or 4 gives very minor results, like casting light, creating difficult terrain, or pushing a creature.
5 or 6 gives a stronger beneficial result, such as extra damage or inflicting a condition on the target.
On a critical hit, you deal an additional 2d6 damage to the target and roll on the table, even if the target isn't a demon.

Something like that, anyway. That's just kind of a rough first draft, I'm sure with further thought I could tune it better. Maybe check with your DM to see if this is amenable to them as an alternative.

[heavyfuel]

I wouldn't use this item - regardless of how powerful or weak it is - because it would absolutely grind every combat against a demon to a halt.

Roll attack, roll damage, roll d6, consult table, roll extra damage/roll d100, consult table, "what does Frightened/Stunned/Incapacitated do again?", consult conditions

FOR EVERY SINGLE SUCCESSFUL ATTACK ROLL

Were I given this sword in an actual game, I would just sell it for a profit at the first opportunity

[CapnWildefyr]

Just write "only the best demon can use this blade" on it.

or, just... "Pick me up."

Mom and Dad Save the World, 1992. Not sure if I should be proud to remember this one, but the light grenade gag is priceless.

[Xenothelm]

Not my first choice, but maybe with a rogue to avoid too many madness rolls.
Maybe if halfling luck or the lucky feat could apply to the d6 roll too, or if there was a save to avoid the madness

He made it a d6 roll specifically to avoid dealing with my Halfling Luck lmao


20% paralyzed, 10% incapacitated, 10% frightened, 5% eat something, 10% stun, 10% incapacitated.
(not even counting potential problems such as 10% attack nearest creature)

65% of the Short-Term Madness table removes you from combat, and each hit, you have a 1/3 chance to get this. Running it throught a calculator, that gets

1 hit: 22%
2 hits: +17% = 39%
3 hits: +13% = 52%
4 hits: +10% = 62%
5 hits: +8% = 70%
...

For me, hard pass for any combat I'd explect to last longer then a round ... which, frankly, is any combat that would be worth having the damage boost. And that's not even counting the RP aspect of it. Or the attunement. So, really really, REALLY, hard pass.
Thanks for doing the math on this, the risks are extremely clear looking at those numbers...


I have to ask: are you sure that the blacksmith you went to isn't in league with the demons and trying to get you killed? Because this weapon really sounds like something a saboteur would give you, in hopes of you killing yourself with it.

This is a great question. The 3 blacksmiths have been hard at work supporting the military factions that will be joining us against the keep, so an inside job screwing with much of the equipment would be a crazy twist...


To be clear, a cursed item isn't usually wholly detrimental. Often a cursed item is simply one with a severe drawback that makes it a gamble to use. The idea is that either (a) the person doesn't know it's cursed until it's too late (usually a cursed item can't be unattuned or gotten rid of), or (b) the benefits are enough to make the item tempting to use, despite the drawbacks. It's a gamble, but it's a gamble that the wielder is designed to lose eventually. An item can have a drawback without being cursed, and an item can be cursed and still be useful. Typically, an item is cursed by design, whereas a noncursed item with a drawback has that drawback as an unintended consequence of how the item works. In that sense, perhaps this isn't really a cursed item. It's just a bad item.

If I were to redesign this item here's a couple changes I would make:

I'd make it a +1 weapon that deals an extra 1d6 damage to fiends in general. This way, it will be useful for more than just demons.
Once on your turn when you hit a demon, you can deal an additional 2d6 damage to that demon.
When you use this trait to deal this extra damage to a demon, you have to roll on the table.
Only a roll of 1 gives a negative result. For example, you take 1d8 damage and are stunned for one round.
2, 3, or 4 gives very minor results, like casting light, creating difficult terrain, or pushing a creature.
5 or 6 gives a stronger beneficial result, such as extra damage or inflicting a condition on the target.
On a critical hit, you deal an additional 2d6 damage to the target and roll on the table, even if the target isn't a demon.

Something like that, anyway. That's just kind of a rough first draft, I'm sure with further thought I could tune it better. Maybe check with your DM to see if this is amenable to them as an alternative.

I've already brought up concerns and I'm sort of the rules lawyer of the table so I don't wanna push it too much. It definitely wasn't intended to be cursed, that I know of, but I think this is supposed to illustrate the risk of using the cheaper blacksmith. Apparently the effects were based on a table we rolled on at the time of purchase. Just a d20, so who knows how great it could've been. Like a lot of people have suggested, I'll probably just sell it. If things are clearly resisting non-magical damage I'll give it a try, but otherwise it's staying sheathed lol...


I wouldn't use this item - regardless of how powerful or weak it is - because it would absolutely grind every combat against a demon to a halt.

Roll attack, roll damage, roll d6, consult table, roll extra damage/roll d100, consult table, "what does Frightened/Stunned/Incapacitated do again?", consult conditions

FOR EVERY SINGLE SUCCESSFUL ATTACK ROLL

Were I given this sword in an actual game, I would just sell it for a profit at the first opportunity

The hilarious part is the conjure spells are limited at our table; casters need to seek out examples of the things they're trying to summon - beasts/fey/elemental/etc. I noticed immediately how long this might stretch my turn so that was an eyebrow raiser as well.

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Thanks for the pretty much unanimous opinion everyone. I'll probably hold on to it in case there are any NOT demons inside. Otherwise, it's a display piece.

[Slipjig]

This item is so terrible I would consider selling it to an unsuspecting mark an Evil act.

Take it to a better smith and ask them to destroy it in front of you.