Sabine it's so obvious!

[Alex Warlorn]

I know precisely what Sabine is!

She's a hybrid! She's a tifling devil! Or a demon/devil hybrid of you prefer! It would explain everything!

And Neutral Evil would explain her desire to help Nale along the path to greater and greater evils but still keep him out of the loop about telling her masters about the Snarl.

The Giant has long since said that the Guild aren't opposites in the sense of evil twins. They're opposites in sense of their personalities. I wonder if this means that Haley, as many have suggested, is not quite human. (Mixed marriages are frowned upon in some cultures.)

[Vectner]

I just can't see demons and devils interbreeding. Well maybe in 4th edition :smallwink:

[Green Bean]

I just can't demons and devils interbreeding. Well maybe in 4th edition :smallwink:

Well, isn't an almost genetic genocidal impulse against each other, and everything they stand for just a repressed form of love?

The answer?

No.

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

Demons and devils do whatever they can to kill each other. That doesn't involve breeding.

Though, on the other hand, that would explain Yugoloths.

[Indon]

;3552464']Demons and devils do whatever they can to kill each other. That doesn't involve breeding.


After a quick mental review of all the XXX-blood and half-XXX templates and bloodlines and races out there...

I can only assume that everything in D&D not only can breed with everything else, but probably has and will continue to.

[Mordokai]

An erinye - succubus child? An interesting theory, to say at least. Quite plausible too. I still don't think that is the case, but it has some merit.

[Justyn]

An erinye - succubus child? An interesting theory, to say at least. Quite plausible too. I still don't think that is the case, but it has some merit.

And will probably lead to some very interesting art. :smallamused:

[Redblade]

Well, isn't an almost genetic genocidal impulse against each other, and everything they stand for just a repressed form of love?

The answer?

No.

Is anyone else imagining a twisted version of Romeo and Juliet?

[Mordokai]

And will probably lead to some very interesting art. :smallamused:

Stick version would be nice, but something more realistical would be even better :smallsmile:

[LawfulGoodThief]

Is anyone else imagining a twisted version of Romeo and Juliet?

There was a 2nd edition Planescape module where the PCs had to courier love letters between a cornugon and succubus.

[Angafirith]

Perhaps Sabine's parents were a half-demon and a half-devil? They probably wouldn't be quite so inclined to kill each other. On the other hand, that would make her half-human....

[hamishspence]

Yes, at one point, in a third party source published by Necromancer Games, 3.5 ed D&D (NOT WOTC material), devil/demon crosses existed, called Lilins, which looked like tail-less succubi, led by Lilith, an archdevil in exile, all allied to Lucifer, the ex-ruler of Hell expelled in a coup'd'etat (cannot remember spelling)

So, it has been done. I doubt she is one, however, since her appearance is textbook succubus. I would have said half-fiend, except they have DR/magic, not DR/exotic metal.

[Querzis]

Well the big problem I have with Sabine is that shes pretty much Neutral evil from what we saw until now and that shoudnt be possible so I really dont think shes a pure demons or a pure devil, shes probably half-something. But half-demon half-devil? That shoudnt be possible...though the OOTS world is really different from the real D&D world so I guess its possible that demons and devils dont hate each other that much in Rich world.

[....]

Wait...

There's doubt as to the fact that Sabine is a succubus?

....................?

[Chronos]

I just can't demons and devils interbreeding. Well maybe in 4th editionI could quite easily see a succubus being taken as a prisoner of war in the Blood War, and kept as a sex slave by devils. Or vice-versa, an erinyes captured by demons. Remember, interbreeding need not imply marriage or love, especially amongst fiends.

Wait...

There's doubt as to the fact that Sabine is a succubus?She looks more like a succubus than an erinyes, but her behaviour is closer to LE than CE, and she has some abilities (like Plane Shift 1/day) that neither has, by RAW. Plus, nobody in the comic (including Nale) seems quite sure what she is. Personally, I suspect that Rich relaxed the alignment rules a bit, and that she's a LE succubus, but I can't prove it.

[Threeshades]

Yes she might be another shapechanging outsider who just pretends to be a succubus all the time :smallamused:

She's clearly a Fey'ri

[Nerdanel]

I've long been thinking that Sabine is a Lawful Evil Half-Fiendish Succubus, where her other parent was an erinyes. Her supernatural powers speak succubus while her actions (and her bosses) seem more like LE to me.

I think she's weak both to silver and cold iron since OotS sometimes homebrews things. If Nale knows what exactly Sabine is, the scissor-specifications in the blueprint for killing Elan suggests that she is weak to both metals.

[the mysterian]

;3552464']Demons and devils do whatever they can to kill each other. That doesn't involve breeding.

Though, on the other hand, that would explain Yugoloths.

STDs would be a reason to actually. just saying.

[Crimson Avenger]

I ahte to be a downer, but she can't be the child of an erinyes and a succubus, as both are female. I think it's safe to say that she is a succubus with specials, as she specifically tell nale that she is literaly the evil incarnation of sexual desire. That is almost word for word what a succubus does.

An inncubus is the male counterpart.

3.0 had a half demon, half fiend in the adventure "Lord of the Iron Keep" called the Cathezar. She looked like a marilith, and she was NAAASTY. She was a personal servant of Demogorgon. I really enjoyed inflicting her on the party.

Death. Destruction. Mayhem. Good Times.

[Mordokai]

You know, just because succubi and erinye are portrayed as hot FEMALES in all the books, that doesn't mean there can't be a male version of both.

Erinyes are fallen angels, and we know there were males among angels(hell, Asmodeus was the best there was, and I doubt he is a chick). Just because we don't see them that doesn't mean there aren't any. Unless you want to say there were only babes among fallen angels, which I find little offensive. And I'm a guy :smallamused:

[monty]

You know, just because succubi and erinye are portrayed as hot FEMALES in all the books, that doesn't mean there can't be a male version of both.

Erinyes are fallen angels, and we know there were males among angels(hell, Asmodeus was the best there was, and I doubt he is a chick). Just because we don't see them that doesn't mean there aren't any. Unless you want to say there were only babes among fallen angels, which I find little offensive. And I'm a guy :smallamused:

Actually, succubi are all female, with the male counterpart being incubi. I don't know much about Erinyes beyond Greek cosmology (and I believe they were all female there), so I don't know if they have a male counterpart.

[Lord]

You know, just because succubi and erinye are portrayed as hot FEMALES in all the books, that doesn't mean there can't be a male version of both.

Erinyes are fallen angels, and we know there were males among angels(hell, Asmodeus was the best there was, and I doubt he is a chick). Just because we don't see them that doesn't mean there aren't any. Unless you want to say there were only babes among fallen angels, which I find little offensive. And I'm a guy :smallamused:

Really? I though that all succubi were whip toating scantily clad hot woman who had bat wings and that are quite obviously disigned purely for an excuse for putting blatant fanservice int D&D, Warcraft, along with every other fantasy world {the only exeption being Middle earth.}.

Right up there with Night elves.

{is joking.}

[Kish]

Wait...

There's doubt as to the fact that Sabine is a succubus?

....................?
Yes, of course there is. If there wasn't supposed to be, Rich wouldn't do jokes like Nale's scissors being "not silver or cold iron"--it would just be "not (whichever one demons are vulnerable to)"--and he wouldn't be so careful to avoid her ever referring to her superiors as demons rather than the generic "fiends" and "evil powers."

[Lord Anath'Kash]

3.0 had a half demon, half fiend in the adventure "Lord of the Iron Keep" called the Cathezar. She looked like a marilith, and she was NAAASTY. She was a personal servant of Demogorgon. I really enjoyed inflicting her on the party.

Death. Destruction. Mayhem. Good Times.

Oh boy was that fun...

Party -"We slam the door shut!"

Myself -"Alright"

P -"And wait!"

M -"Alright"

They pause...

P -"We open the door..."

M -"The room appears to be empty except the hanging chain in front of the door."

Fighter -"I enter the room and look around the corner"

M -"The door swing shuts behind you as the Cathezar climbs down the chain."


----

Back on topic:

"Unlike other devils, erinyes appear attractive to humans, resembling very comely women or men. An erinyes stands about 6 feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds."

So technically, she could be a child of a succubus and a erinyes, or an incubus and a erinyes.

:-\ Personally I think a half-breed demon/devil is more likely...

[Ganurath]

The content of this spoiler is an inside joke for the posters in the Town section of these forums related to the topic.Wait... so the theory is that Sabine is Vael?

@/\: Wouldn't a cubus/erinyes lustchild be a demon/devil hybrid, though? The cubi are demons and the erinyes are devils, after all...

*suddenly has a vision of a cornugon/kyton hybrid and goes off to brew*

[Wizzardman]

She could just be some time of Yugoloth. That's explain the Neutral Evil and the strange abilities.

[The Extinguisher]

She's a fiend of The Gray Waste who just happens to have planeshift, energy drain on touch (not kiss, like succubi) and a damge reistance/cold iron or silver

[Mordokai]

Actually, succubi are all female, with the male counterpart being incubi. I don't know much about Erinyes beyond Greek cosmology (and I believe they were all female there), so I don't know if they have a male counterpart.

I'll admit I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. But as it was already pointed out, my statement still holds true for erinyes.


Really? I though that all succubi were whip toating scantily clad hot woman who had bat wings and that are quite obviously disigned purely for an excuse for putting blatant fanservice int D&D, Warcraft, along with every other fantasy world {the only exeption being Middle earth.}.

Right up there with Night elves.

{is joking.}

That is one of very possible and likely possibilities :smallamused:

[jamroar]

I just can't see demons and devils interbreeding. Well maybe in 4th edition :smallwink:

There was a half-kyton half-marilith in one of the 3.0 Adventure Path modules, I think.

[xanaphia]

Is anyone else imagining a twisted version of Romeo and Juliet?

Popped into my head immediately.

[krossbow]

;3552464']Demons and devils do whatever they can to kill each other. That doesn't involve breeding.



What if one of them had a fatal STD?

[Mordokai]

A weird way to assasinate anybody, if I have ever heard of one.

[Chronos]

Not only are there male succubi and erinyes, they're the same things as the female ones. Both succubi and erinyes are able to change their form, including their gender, and do so whenever it suits them. It just so happens to suit them to be female more often than it suits them to be male, so most such fiends are usually female.

[Castamir]

There is such a thing as brain gender. It's usually the same as the rest of the body, but that's not always the case.

As shapechanging as portrayed in D&D doesn't change one's personality, it clearly doesn't change the brain gender as well -- gender behaviour is a good part of one's personality. Thus, even when shapeshifted, a succubus remains a female (in male body), and an incubus male. A change that does involve the brain (like the belt of F/M in OOTS) would do the trick, though -- Roy claimed "he's not used to the hormones". And in fact, in NetHack if you are polyed into a succubus and undergo a gender change, you end up as an incubus.

Looking around, I've just found three different sources claiming succubii and incubii are female and male forms of the same demon species. This would mean, they're to each other as a rooster to a hen.

There are no female roosters and male hens. Thus, there are no male succubii, even though one can assume a male body (being still a female inside).


All the talk of succuii's gender aside, if you shapeshift, your reproductive organs are changed so you can give birth/sire a child. As an example, when Loki shifted to a mare to seduce a stallion (a long story, read the myth), he gave birth to a colt as the mother -- and Tyr specifically used this word.

[Chronos]

There is such a thing as brain gender. It's usually the same as the rest of the body, but that's not always the case.Maybe in humans, but what makes you say the same is true of fiends? It could just as easily be the case that when a succubus changes genitalia, e also changes mindset. Or that demons don't have any particular mental gender, only physical. Or that their "brain gender" is something other than the standard "male" and "female" we're familiar with.

Oh, and a minor nitpick, but to form the plural of a word ending in -us, you replace the -us with a -i. You only get a word ending in two "i"s if one of them was already there in the singular (like radius, radii).

[Querzis]

Maybe in humans, but what makes you say the same is true of fiends? It could just as easily be the case that when a succubus changes genitalia, e also changes mindset. Or that demons don't have any particular mental gender, only physical. Or that their "brain gender" is something other than the standard "male" and "female" we're familiar with.

Demons and devils are dead humans or other sentient being. Sabine was female back when she was alive and, since she always polymorph in human form, she was probably human too.

Beside, animals got brain gender (as long as their species actually got gender) so there is no real reason why that would be different with goblins, orcs or fiends.

[Archangel Yuki]

*Snip*
Death. Destruction. Mayhem. Good Times.
Yup.

Also, I cam see her being a fey'ri. She would have the first generation, though.

[Azazel]

Well, isn't an almost genetic genocidal impulse against each other, and everything they stand for just a repressed form of love?

The answer?

No.

It makes for some rough lovin' but hey, they're monsters in every sense of the word...
I can imagine it now... mm... backs being clawed, slapping, biting ones mates head off at the end... lovely. :smallwink:

[Prowl]

She looks more like a succubus than an erinyes, but her behaviour is closer to LE than CE, and she has some abilities (like Plane Shift 1/day) that neither has, by RAW. Plus, nobody in the comic (including Nale) seems quite sure what she is. Personally, I suspect that Rich relaxed the alignment rules a bit, and that she's a LE succubus, but I can't prove it.

When has Sabine ever exhibited the slightest glimmer of lawful behavior?

I know for certain that I can point out multiple instances of chaotic behavior on her part (e.g. this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html)), to say nothing of her admission of being an embodiment of illicit sex - lawful alignment is simply implausible, and even neutral alignment is highly unlikely. From what I have seen, she is as definitely chaotic as she is evil.

[Kaelaroth]

A weird way to assasinate anybody, if I have ever heard of one.

Actually there was a massive legal case in Scotland where a woman with HIV/AIDS had gone and done it with everyone who had ever dumped her. She got several life sentences, I beleive...

Moving on, I just think Sabine is a buffed-up succubus. If she is a half-something or other, I bet her dad was hot... *sigh* :smallredface:

I think what people mean when they say Sabine's LE is that she follows orders, goes round with a lawful evil guy, has some commitment, and obeys overlords. That's typically LE. Personally, I just think she's NE.

[Elfanatic]

Lets not forget that Sabine is supposed to be Haley's counterpart. Which means that Haley('s parent[s]) have some exalted mumbo-jumbo. I can't say I play much D&D, so does anyone know a devil, demon or such like of illicit sex who have divine beings of chasity/honour als mortal enemies?

[Kish]

Lets not forget that Sabine is supposed to be Haley's counterpart. Which means that Haley('s parent[s]) have some exalted mumbo-jumbo.

So you're saying Roy is not all human, since Thog isn't?

There is a popular theory--nothing more--on this board that Haley is part celestial. It's not impossible, but I think it's unlikely. Her Linear Guild mirror being a fiend certainly doesn't prove it true.

[Cifer]

Demons and devils are dead humans or other sentient being. Sabine was female back when she was alive and, since she always polymorph in human form, she was probably human too.
That is not quite correct. While both devils and demons stem from mortals, the first thing that happens after their death (according to Fiendish Codex I and II) is their entire memory and psyche wiped out with massive amounts of torture and magic. There are very few demons and devils who remember anything from their former lives.

In general, it is much more appropriate to look upon fiends as embodiments of their planes.

Also, there are no Incubi in D&D. Succubus is the gender-neutral term for the "species" of demon which can assume both male and female forms.

[Iranon]

Gotta love D&D and its love for improbable crossbreeds when the regular exotic races start to elicit a bored yawn.

Beware the ferocious half-demon half-devil half-flumph... and try not to ponder how we got a full half of each, it's messier than you think.