Ability boosting items

[Emperor Demonking]

Can you qualify for a prestige class or feat with ability boosting items?
What happens if you loose them?

If you use an ability boosting item does that affect your leadership score?
What happens if you loose the ability boost?

Pretty unrelated

If you have leadership, what happens if you get charisma drain.

[Tyger]

The answer to the feat part is an unqualified yes. Its actually been noted a few times, may even be an entry in the FAQ or errata, though I couldn't find it doing a quick search. If you lose the prerequisite though, you lose access to the feat too.

As for classes, I haven't seen a definitive answer, but my gut (not RAW, just my interpretation) would be no. You must have the ability to do X in order to become Y. Not your magic item, you.

Leadership though, that's another question entirely. I'm guessing this would be on a DM by DM basis.

[Chronos]

Most prestige classes don't require a minimum ability score to begin with, so you're fine there. A prestige class might require a feat which in turn requires an ability score (say, Dodge, which requires a 13 dex), but since we've already established that you can get feats that way, that's no problem. If, however, you for some reason lose a prerequisite for a feat, you lose the benefit of the feat until you get it back, and likewise if you lose a prereq for a PrC, you lose the benefits of the PrC until you get it back.

So, for instance, a character with a natural 9 in Dex, but wearing Gloves of Dexterity +4, could take the Dodge feat. And if the character also meets the other requirements, he could then enter the Shadowdancer class (which requires Dodge, among other things). But if he takes his gloves off, he doesn't get the benefit of Dodge, and since he's lost Dodge, he also doesn't qualify for Shadowdancer, so he can't hide in plain sight until he puts his gloves back on.

[Jasdoif]

But if he takes his gloves off, he doesn't get the benefit of Dodge, and since he's lost Dodge, he also doesn't qualify for Shadowdancer, so he can't hide in plain sight until he puts his gloves back on.I don't think it works that way. He no longer benefits from the Dodge feat, but he still has the Dodge feat; so he should still qualify for the prestige class.

Otherwise, even temporary ability damage could result in you losing class features.

[VerdugoExplode]

Otherwise, even temporary ability damage could result in you losing class features.

It does, wizards who lose int, sorcerers who lose charisma and clerics who lose wisdom can both be deprived of their spell casting abilities if they take enough ability damage.

[Jasdoif]

It does, wizards who lose int, sorcerers who lose charisma and clerics who lose wisdom can both be deprived of their spell casting abilities if they take enough ability damage.That's more a matter of spellcasting then of class features. And you still retain the ability to activate spell trigger items, so it's not like the class feature is actually gone anyway.

I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that a blackguard loses all spellcasting, sneak attack, etc. if their Strength drops below 13.

[Dausuul]

That's more a matter of spellcasting then of class features. And you still retain the ability to activate spell trigger items, so it's not like the class feature is actually gone anyway.

I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that a blackguard loses all spellcasting, sneak attack, etc. if their Strength drops below 13.

Hmm. By a literal reading of the SRD, it appears that you only have to meet the prereqs in order to take the first level of the PrC. Once you have that level, you're golden, even if you later lose the prereq. Which would mean you could, by strict RAW, use items to qualify, and then get rid of the items afterward; or use something like the embrace the dark chaos spell in Fiendish Codex I to swap out a junk feat for something useful.

Of course, there may be FAQs, Sage answers, et cetera, on the subject. Personally, I would institute a house rule requiring "all-natural" prereqs for a PrC. If you don't qualify for the PrC (meaning you both have the feats and qualify for them) when stripped naked in an antimagic field, you don't qualify, period.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Can you qualify for a prestige class or feat with ability boosting items?
What happens if you loose them?
Prestige classes never have ability score prerequisites. How important a prereq feat is to its class abilities is a matter of DM judgment. I'd say that if you loose a feat which a prestige class ability is obviously related to, you'd also lose the class ability.


If you use an ability boosting item does that affect your leadership score?
What happens if you loose the ability boost?
If you have leadership, what happens if you get charisma drain.
Another case of DM judgment. I'd say since you're wearing the Cloak of Charisma for most of the time, you get to add it to your leadership score. Likewise if your charisma is permanently drained or you stop wearing your Cloak for a significant amount of time (a few days at least), your leadership score drops.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

That's more a matter of spellcasting then of class features.
Right. You can still use your high level spell slots to cast lower level or metamagic enhanced spells, for example.



Hmm. By a literal reading of the SRD, it appears that you only have to meet the prereqs in order to take the first level of the PrC.
Unfortunately, Complete Warrior says you lose all features for any prestige class. Since it doesn't actually contradict anything, it's considered official by WotC despite it not being the primary source on PrCs.

And it has been referenced in Sage Advice and maybe even the FAQ.

Of course, there are plenty of Prestige Classes that have abilities that don't make any sense to be tied to be tied so closely to prerequisites—especially ones that advance preexisting class abilities. (Oh, yeah, a Good rogue can sneak attack just fine, but my assassin that had a change of heart suddenly can't? :smallfurious:)

Then, of course there are a number of prestige classes that grant abilities that make you lose a prerequisite. One's even in the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/dragonDisciple.html).

As such, I tend to ignore that bit. And despite it's "official" status, I don't even consider it a house rule, since things would be no different than if I had never even heard of Complete Warrior.

[Curmudgeon]

Prestige classes often have feats as prerequisites, and feats often have ability score minimum requirements, so if a dependent ability score drops below the minimum you may no longer qualify to enter or advance a level in a prestige class.

However, whether you would no longer be able to use that prestige class's features depends. If your PrC is from Complete Warrior or Complete Arcane, the answer is that you definitely lose access to that PrC's features. There's a rule to that effect on page 16 of Complete Warrior, and similar text in Complete Arcane. However, many prestige classes in other books cannot exist if this CW page 16 rule is followed. An example of this is the Ur-Priest from Complete Divine: it has as an entry requirement that you cannot cast divine spells; and when you enter, you immediately gain the ability to cast divine spells.

The most reasonable compromise position I know of is that the page 16 rule applies only to the prestige classes in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane. For PrCs from other books, your ability loss would immediately render any feats dependent on that ability unavailable, but your PrC features dependent on unavailable entry requirement feats would still be completely functional.

[Dausuul]

The most reasonable compromise position I know of is that the page 16 rule applies only to the prestige classes in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane. For PrCs from other books, your ability loss would immediately render any feats dependent on that ability unavailable, but your PrC features dependent on unavailable entry requirement feats would still be completely functional.

An alternative compromise would be to say the rule in Complete Warrior/Complete Arcane applies to all PrCs, but exceptions are made if the PrC itself is what negated the prerequisite.

[Zincorium]

Prestige classes often have feats as prerequisites, and feats often have ability score minimum requirements, so if a dependent ability score drops below the minimum you may no longer qualify to enter or advance a level in a prestige class.

You're reading it a level too far. As seen in the relevant portion of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#prerequisites) you do not lose the feat itself, you are simply unable to use it. Since you still have the feat, even if you are unable to use it, you do not lose the prerequisite for the prestige class.

As far as all that goes, I always become aggravated with WotC about their complete inability to adequately explain a basic concept of the game in the relevant book. It's not even errata'd, and complete warrior/arcana are not the primary source here.


As far as actual use goes, I generally don't punish the unintentional loss of prerequisites by the PCs. That's in the 'kicking them when they're down' category IMHO. Intentional loss is another story.

[martyboy74]

As far as actual use goes, I generally don't punish the unintentional loss of prerequisites by the PCs. That's in the 'kicking them when they're down' category IMHO. Intentional loss is another story.

Does that mean that you could use a ring of enlarge person to qualify for War Hulk, and then take the ring off to get rid of No Time For Thought?

[Zincorium]

Does that mean that you could use a ring of enlarge person to qualify for War Hulk, and then take the ring off to get rid of No Time For Thought?

Like I said, intentional loss is another story. Assuming I was stupid enough that day to let them take that particular prestige class, I'd let them know that either they get all the features, all the time, or it's goodbye war hulk.

[Stephen_E]

An alternative compromise would be to say the rule in Complete Warrior/Complete Arcane applies to all PrCs, but exceptions are made if the PrC itself is what negated the prerequisite.

Except that the DMG is the primary source and it specifically say that you only need prereqs to take the 1st level. No mention of any other levels, or losing class abilitys if you no longer meet prereqs.

The Complete Warrior and Arcane on the otherhand are exact copies of sections from 3.0 books (it should be noted that the DMG isn't a cutpaste of the 3.0 DMG in the section regarding prereqs, though other parts of the prestige classes section are). Given that Wizards were having serious problems with unedited cut/pasting during the early Complete books, with Comp Divine been the worst, the more rational assumption is that the DMG rules that you only need prereqs to take the 1st level are correct for ALL prestige classes, regardless of which book they come from.

Stephen

[Stephen_E]

Unfortunately, Complete Warrior says you lose all features for any prestige class. Since it doesn't actually contradict anything, it's considered official by WotC despite it not being the primary source on PrCs.

Except it does contradict the DMG which only says you need prereq to take the 1st level.



And it has been referenced in Sage Advice and maybe even the FAQ.

I've never seen any reference in the FAQ.



As such, I tend to ignore that bit. And despite it's "official" status, I don't even consider it a house rule, since things would be no different than if I had never even heard of Complete Warrior.

The sensible approach IMHO.

Stephen

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Except it does contradict the DMG which only says you need prereq to take the 1st level.
No, it's not a true contradiction, as the DMG doesn't actually say you can keep class features if you lose a prerequisite. The DMG doesn't make any statement about losing prerequisites after you've taken levels at all. Nor does it make any claims that prerequisites only ever matter with regards to the first level of the class. As such, the rules in Complete Warrior would be an expansion upon the rules in the DMG without any actual contradiction.


The sensible approach IMHO.
I always thought so. :smallcool:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Just paging through Dragon #346, and I noticed a standard Sage Advice Contradiction that happens to bear relevance to this discussion.

There's a question about a Warforged Juggernaut taking levels of Reforged. In the response, the Sage mentions that while a Warforged Juggernaut would retain all its class features even after taking the last level of Reforged which causes the Juggernaut to lose Adamantine Body, a prerequisite for Warforged Juggernaut. But then he goes on to say the warforged couldn't take any more levels in Warforged Juggernaut.

Just wanted to throw that out there onto the "Official Word" pile.