[3.5] Hypothetical SAD Character

[Thurbane]

So, say you've rolled your stats: you get 18, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8.

If you had to play these stats in a game, what character would you build?

Assume you are restricted to LA +0 races, and templates are off the table. Standard WBL. Official sources only.

I know it's said Warlock does the best with low stats, but does anything else come to mind? Tier 1 caster also seems obvious?

Cheers - T

[liquidformat]

hmm, I think you could swing a dwarf druid alright with those stats 8 str 8 dex 10 con 8 int 18 wis 6 cha. Sure the first couple levels would be a bit rough but once you hit your swing and just stay in wild shape all day having horrible stats isn't to painful.

[RandomPeasant]

Warlock is the least stat-dependent, but it's enough weaker than the full casters that the answer is still "play a full caster". As already suggested, Druid is probably best since it lets you ignore your physical stats, but Wizard with the Int-to-HP feat wouldn't be bad either.

[loky1109]

Commoner. Abilities don't matter.

[Kurald Galain]

It depends on level, but if you have to survive from level 1 then it's a pretty good idea to stick that 18 in dexterity (for good AC and reflex saves and initiative, and dex skills are pretty good), and then either go archery or finesse with a TOB class.

I mean, at high levels you obviously want a tier-1 caster, but no sense in aiming for Gate and Wish if you lose initiative and die before you get anywhere. Wizard has downright crappy defenses at low level; at least if you play a pet class then you can shelter behind the pet.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonfire Adept and put that 18 in Con. Wear heavy armor and use a heavy shield, the only checks you'll make that the nonproficiency penalties will apply to is initiative which is already bad.

(Earth) Dwarf Druid, Con 10 and Wis 18. Hide behind a wooden tower shield and concentrate on Enrage Animal in the low levels.

[Anthrowhale]

The context seems to matter a great deal. If there is a standard party of 4, there seems nothing particularly terrible about having a spellcaster with low stats except for the casting stat. Probably the biggest issue is that they'll start out bad at winning initiative.

On the other hand if you are running solo, it significantly more challenging, particularly in the lower levels. There were some tricks here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24650205&postcount=400) that might help. Shape Soulmeld(bloodtalons) gives you effectively 9 extra hp. Wild Cohort (riding dog) gives you a beefy minion. Trading a wizard familiar for another riding dog gives you another beefy minion. Trading a wizard's scribe scroll for improved initiative and choosing a race with a dex bonus helps on the initiative front.

[Kurald Galain]

TIf there is a standard party of 4, there seems nothing particularly terrible about having a spellcaster with low stats except for the casting stat. Probably the biggest issue is that they'll start out bad at winning initiative.
Well, that and the likelihood that, if the party gets hit by a fireball or something, the low-stat spellcaster falls over dead :smallamused:

[Doctor Despair]

Necropolitan Wild Shape Ranger is pretty SAD. You have no con, so no penalty to hitpoints, and you take on the animals strength and dex. Put the 18 in wis and age yourself up to venerable.

[Soranar]

Warlock with 18 in CON and relying on no save abilities is the obvious choice.

Wildshape makes physical stats meaningless so a druid or an urban druid can get away with it too, both start the game with a fairly potent bodyguard (animal companion) so they'll make it to level 5.

You did say no templates though, that's takes necropolitan off the table.

A wildshape ranger could also work but he'd need a wild cohort to make it to level 5. I'd put the 18 in CON and go for a master of many forms build.

[Soranar]

Honestly any WIS caster can work :

A Jermlaine has +6 to WIS so it starts high enough to cast and if you put your points in WIS you'll reach level 9 spells just in time if you combine that with 1 age category while maintaining the 18 in CON.

[Malphegor]

Behold, the something int that qualifies skillwise 5/chameleon 10/dragon disciple 10 spell slot bootstrapper… beware his powers… unspeakable powers!

Keying as much as he can off off int, and he buys items and makes deals with devils to shore up his weaknesses

His divine spells suffer a fair bit but ya can go for the all martial weapons proficiency if needed

[Seward]

Wizard has downright crappy defenses at low level; at least if you play a pet class then you can shelter behind the pet.

Take a toad familiar. That gets you up to the 6 hp base all wizards with 14 con start with. Then you get 1-2hp/lvl. You'll fall a little behind. If you start out as a dwarf, you aren't much worse off than your typical elf wizard even without a toad. At level 3 take False Life and you're pretty much past the point where your 8 con is a significant handicap.

I mean - druid is better because wildshape fixes most issues caused by low con (including fort save and concentration) but hp will still be low, even with d8 hit die. You'll want to be a spell platform (eg, dire bat, or something size small and inoffensive looking), getting by in lower levels with your dog animal companion handling most of the effort, spells at key moments or buffing dog and with consumables, like every other low level D&D caster. But wizards have a ton of support for surviving low hitpoints, and none of it requires high AC. In the rare situation where there is a significant ranged threat, getting prone and under cover instead of just standing out in the open gives you +8, which will do until you can manage the threat other ways.

The only way to be a martial I can think of is a brutal throw "archer". Str to hit and damage, take brutal throw and quickdraw. You can use ranger to either go TWF or (probably better) archery, getting you rapid shot and improved precise shot (multishot is useless to you). You can get a few other feats without dex that can help (point blank, far shot) and what you really dream of is getting hands on Gloves of Endless Javelins.

Ranged because you can be a lot more fragile hitpointwise than any other kind of martial. Str/throwing because a martial who doesn't get primary-stat-to-damage is a useless martial. If anybody knows how to get constitution to-hit and damage, then my opinion might change.

[AvatarVecna]

If you're a wizard with 14/14/14/18/14/14, you still have to play really careful because your numbers aren't great. Changing the 14s to 8s doesn't change your tactics all that much, it just means you have to be a bit more careful. As with any wizard: you'll lose a fair fight, and that's why you need to focus on not picking fair fights. Bring friends, or just stack the deck so hard the other guy doesn't have a chance. If you're going solo and wanting a specific build that mitigates the numbers issues as much as possible...

Grey Elf Wizard X (Elven Generalist 1/3)

Rat familiar (Fort +2)

Traits:
Hardy (Fort +1/Ref -1)
Passionate (Fort +1/Will -1)

Flaws:
Pathetic Charisma (Cha -2)
Vulnerable (AC -1)

Skills:
Concentration: 4 (+2)
Craft/Alchemy: 4 (+9)
Knowledge/Arcana: 4 (+9)
Knowledge/Dungeoneering: 2 (+7)
Knowledge/History: 2 (+7)
Knowledge/Local: 2 (+7)
Knowledge/Nature: 2 (+7)
Knowledge/Religion: 2 (+7)
Knowledge/The Planes: 2 (+7)
Spellcraft: 4 (+9)

Feats:
HD 1: Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Passions)
Elf 1: Martial Weapon Proficiency ()
Elf 1: Martial Weapon Proficiency ()
Elf 1: Martial Weapon Proficiency ()
Elf 1: Martial Weapon Proficiency ()
Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll
Flaw 1: Insightful Reflexes
Flaw 1: Keen Intellect [dragon mag]
HD 3: Knowledge Devotion
Wizard 5: Craft Wondrous Item
HD 6: Improved Initiative

Feats past lvl 6 can be spent on things that reduce crafting costs. This is also the case if you DCS your elf feats down the line.

AC 9, 1d4+5 HP, Saves +2/+4/+6. Starting at lvl 3, your Fort goes up 3 points instead of just 1, and your knowledge skills start fueling your attack/damage a bit. Craft Wondrous will let you at least double your money in items, making up for whatever issues your low stats give you. Keen Intellect (if allowed) also makes a number of skills Int-based: Heal, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival. Spot is probably the important one there, so you'll have an untrained +7 in it (since you're still an elf).

This build could jump into a campaign, and while they wouldn't have as great a time as if they had better attributes, they'll still function fairly well for a wizard.

[zlefin]

Answering before reading other replies, so I may have duplicates.

Warlock is probably the best, but you already mentioned that.

Of the classes I'm familiar with, I'd probably go with Dragon Shaman. With those stats, Con is either an 18, in which case you have solid HP, or 8, in which case your hp is going to be quite low. Fighting won't work well in general with mostly 8's, there's too many secondary stats involved in most combat. With Dragon Shaman, while you're a bit weak, some of your class abilities are Con based, so you can stick with high con and at least not die while providing some support via the auras and breath attack. I'm not familiar with dragonfire adept, but the same principle may apply there based on my third-hand impression of the class: Easy to run entirely off Con, so you'll have a staunchly survivable amount of hp to work with at least.

Another path to survival is a source of temporary HP that can compensate for a low Con. An Elan Psion, being able to use both the elan's damage reducer, as well as Psionic Vigor for temp hp, could manage to be reasonably survivable despite a pitifully low amount of hp. Being a Psion would also mean they'd be able to contribute some, though not quite as much as a normal Psion since they'd need to save some of their PP for defense.

A third prospect, which I wouldn't do for most games, but might in certain select ones, would be to build a wholly non-combat character. Whose plan for surviving combats is to try to avoid taking part in the fight entirely. They'd have to contribute through either applying long term buffs, or providing useful skills/spells outside of combat. That'd be dull for most games, but in a low combat/high intrigue or investigation game, I'd consider it.

Now that I think of it, Crusader might work; the low stats hurt a lot for any combat oriented build. But between the delayed damage pool, the healing abilities, and the Stone Dragon temp Hp thing, you could manage to be reasonably survivable despite low con. I'd probably put the 18 in dex, as that covers more needs than Str. Weapon Finesse lets you hit well enough. Your damage will be low, but some of the Strikes have good rider damage, so that can cover your damage needs well enough.

[Seward]

A third prospect, which I wouldn't do for most games, but might in certain select ones, would be to build a wholly non-combat character.


A bard-support could work pretty well. You don't need all that charisma so you could go with dwarf to get a few more hitpoints, or you could accept that you have weak hitpoints and go human for the extra feat and skill point. Don't carry a weapon, dress like a commoner the party is escorting (ie, outfit under 5gp of visible stuff that hints at a profession where you don't have to be strong) don't do any offensive spells in combat, basically don't do anything to draw attention to yourself. Get disguise spell and subsonics as soon as you can, when you pull that off you can both bardsong and cast spells and nobody can tell it is you. Perhaps get Conceal Spell as a skill trick earlier, you get the idea. UMD maybe to activate wands and scrolls without using actual command words or incantations might help bridge the gap till the feats came together. If retraining is allowed, at level 7 retrain whatever you took at level 3 to be subsonics instead....

On the skill front, 6 skill points/level is good enough for a solid group of face skills and some skill tricks, consider Jack of All Trades + Bardic Knack alternate class feature to let you stunt double for whatever the party lacks (combined with improvisation spell, heroism etc you can do halfway decent even with crappy stats).

Who's going to make the 4 person party of all 18s? I see a wizard, druid (for melee muscle with animal companion and eventually wildshape), a pure support bard who pretends to be a civilian and perhaps that javelin thrower? Wizard should take some crafting feats, at least craft wondrous - a crew like that is going to need very specific gear and as early as possible (starting with constitution amulets....)


I'd probably put the 18 in dex, as that covers more needs than Str. Weapon Finesse lets you hit well enough. Your damage will be low, but some of the Strikes have good rider damage, so that can cover your damage needs well enough.

I just can't agree with this. I have seen too many martial characters fall into this trap. Monks who dump strength for ac+weapon finesse, archers with low strength. At least a rogue who goes down this road might someday compensate with sneak attack damage, but if you can't get the equivalent of a "high stat for damage" you will always be behind your peers, and fall further behind as the game advances. Being able to hit isn't enough if your damage is ignored. That is especially true for a melee who by taking low strength is also giving up power attack. (10 str archers can sometimes keep up by spending an inordinate amount of WBL on their weapon and specialized ammo.)

If you can't keep up with a basic 16 starting str full bab+ power attack type martial in damage doing your basic schtick, or an archer with fullbab, point blank, precise and rapid shot and str+3 comp longbow the monsters will laugh at you and ignore you. That's pretty much the minimum bar to keep up with monster advancement, assuming you continue to prioritize weapon damage in feats, and WBL and usually statbumps.

On a related note, having high defenses is useless if monsters don't consider you dangerous. 18 dex or 8, if your offense is so weak you are ignored, it won't be tested.

[H_H_F_F]

+1 to wild shape ranger, except I'd put the 18 in Con, not Wis. Probably go for mongrefolk, if we wanna push it. Take wild cohort to not be useless, and focus on surviving and providing help. With high Con, a d8 hit die, medium armor and a shield, you should be able to comfortably exist even in melee. MoMF is extremely easy to enter for you, and from there on you should be golden. You could even take VoP at 3/6 - you'd lose a few exalted feats compared to taking it at 1, but that's worth it fkr not walking around naked beforehand.

[Kurald Galain]

If you're a wizard with 14/14/14/18/14/14, you still have to play really careful because your numbers aren't great. Changing the 14s to 8s doesn't change your tactics all that much

I'd say having 1d4-1 hit points per level (as opposed to 1d4+2+toad) IS quite the game changer. A stiff breeze could kill you.

[AvatarVecna]

I'd say having 1d4-1 hit points per level (as opposed to 1d4+2+toad) IS quite the game changer. A stiff breeze could kill you.

Not really. The game reaches rocket tag very quickly regardless of how much effort you put into your HP. At lvl 6, one has 9 HP and the other has 30 HP, and both are dead if they ever get melee'd. Orc Warrior 1 with Str 15, Greataxe, and Power Attack is still looking at a crit of 3d12+15. Con 8 wizard is dying 0.23% of the time and dead 99.77%. Con 14 wizard is barely alive 26.16% of the time, dying 57.29% of the time, and dead 16.55% of the time. To a creature that, by all rights, you should be able to squash without a thought. If the orc was a Warrior 2, it's a coinflip if the Con 14 wizard is dead or not.

To use a comparison with older editions, with AD&D traps you were supposed to disarm them with clever thinking and use of tools, with no dice rolling involved. Dice rolling was a last-ditch hail mary to see if lady luck would let you escape with your life when you failed to out-think a puzzle trap. As it was with thieves, so it is with wizards: unless you're trying monumentally hard, playing the HP/AC game is a losing proposition, and if that situation finds you, you're a bad roll of the dice away from losing even to something well under your level. If it's closer to your level, even good effort is gonna have trouble staying ahead of their DPR. A 6 point difference in Con doesn't matter - what matters is if you have immediate action teleportation, or miss chance, or immunity to the right damage type. And for all of those tactics, the difference between Con 3 and Con 30 is nonexistent.

Don't get me wrong, it's definitely better to have Con 14 than Con 8, or god forbid Con 3. The extra cushion exists. But it's not your first layer of defense the way it is for fighters. It's your last-ditch hail mary for if you're getting attacked and have no recourse - you just have to hope you can tank it. And you probably can't, even with good Con. That 6 point difference is tripling your HP, it's not doing nothing. But triple garbage is still mostly garbage.

[Max Caysey]

So, say you've rolled your stats: you get 18, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8.

If you had to play these stats in a game, what character would you build?

Assume you are restricted to LA +0 races, and templates are off the table. Standard WBL. Official sources only.

I know it's said Warlock does the best with low stats, but does anything else come to mind? Tier 1 caster also seems obvious?

Cheers - T

I thought arcane gnome focused specialist illusionist… if you survive The initial levels, you become strong AF!

[Seward]

That 6 point difference is tripling your HP, it's not doing nothing. But triple garbage is still mostly garbage.

Mostly the goal for any character not spending a lot of resources (class, hitpoints, ac, even saves to a certain extent) after a certain point is to survive two attacks from an enemy martial before you can react. move+attack, then you eat an AOO getting out of trouble. Arcane casters can often do with a bit less (don't get one-shotted) because they have a lot of escape options if they think to have a spell prepared/known or three for that situation.

With 1d10+level hitpoints, false life evens the gap between the 8 con wizard and the 14 con wizard, and it scales (you can empower it at level 7, and empower is a commonly taken feat for a wizard anyway). You don't want to ban necromancy if you are extra-squishy as a wizard, but that's really all you need, since many, many 14 con wizards don't take false life, nor do the elf 12 con wizards.

[bean illus]

I know i say this a lot, but ... chameleon.

Now hear me out. Low level survivability is certainly a fairly big issue, and can be addressed in several ways, which I'll touch later.

Chameleon's 6th level spells are well known to include 7th and 8th level access, and the abilty boon +6 couples well enough with the inherent abilty bonus progression to grant full casting with double aptitude. The rapid CL advancement (class level x2) means that you can ignore CL for the other 10 levels.

At 1st level place the 18 in Dex, and pick the martial feat rogue variant. Able learner, wild cohort, and improved initiative. Use flask bombardment as melee. Even with an 8 Int, you'll have Hide, Move, and enough skill points to enter chameleon. Stay alive for 2 levels.

Take Necropolitan template asap. Dex, Con, Int, and Wis are now all covered. Three levels here will give +2 BAB, evasion, another fighter feat, and enough skill points. Ref and Fort are covered, but Will is not.
There are 2 levels available to pick up some Will save, and class abilities.
If you're willing to disregard BAB, then there are numerous builds that are viable. With decent HP and AC secured, someone could choose any front loaded base class with a Will save. There're even 4 levels after chameleon 10 worth planning for.

Not many classes grant full BAB and strong Will save, but a few do. Duskblade does, as well as martial weapons, all armor, and shields except towers. It also grants detect and read magic as (Sp), and the combat casting feat. Squeeze in a 3rd level for basic channel spell.

Your feats are open from 3rd level, and there's room for the planar touchstone -> extra slot tricks. You now cast 8th level arcane, and up to 9th level divine, from mostly every list.

You're final stats are:
8 18 - , 10 13 8

or:
8 18 - , 16 19 8 (with chameleon abilty boon)

You can cast bull strength, or eagle's splendor, or buy an enhancement item. But there's really not any problem with a Cha dump, and there are multiple ways to buy a little melee damage on this build. Put the last 3 levels wherever you want. ToB could round up the BAB, if duskblade seemed meh there, and grant 5th and 6th level maneuvers. Warblade has a bit of Int synergy.

But by then you're a T1 caster, so finish as you'd like.

Edit: He has 1 martial feat open, 3rd, 6th and 9th level feats open, and the chameleon floating feat. So, plenty of options.

[Seward]

Not many classes grant full BAB and strong Will save, but a few do. Duskblade does, as well as martial weapons, all armor, and shields except towers. It also grants detect and read magic as (Sp), and the combat casting feat. Squeeze in a 3rd level for basic channel spell.

You're final stats are:
8 18 - , 10 13 8

o

How are you casting any duskblade spells with <10 int until "final stats"? Even then you can only cast cantrips. Are we just investing in a +4 intelligence item? (I mean, that works, I'm just asking)

For the rest of it - you're not a martial unless you are a crossbow sniper and can get dex to damage. You're not a primary caster with final attributes of 10 13 and 8, although I grant you could be some kind of utility/support caster using enhancement items to cast spells at all.

What purpose do you serve in the party other than just staying alive (which won't be hard if you can't do anything enemies find dangerous)?

I'm probably missing something. Chameleons were never allowed in any game I played and I may be missing a nuance here, likewise "get a template as soon as possible" wasn't something that happened in my circles (you were born with a template, or it didn't happen barring something like lycanthropy that can be inflicted as a disease, and the LA usually meant any template retired the character). But just taking everything you said at face value and assuming the table was fine with it, how do you contribute?

====
If I just wanted a purely survivable chararacter I'd go with 18 con and just multiclass a bunch in classes that boost reflex saves and will and preferably give out some skill points. 1-2 levels of a bunch of base classes (or prcs) will boost saves faster than just about anything. But the question is what purpose do you serve? The Spirit Shaman idea, above, at least answers that question, since it can actually use constitution as part of its spellcasting.

[Akal Saris]

I would make a dragonfire adept, as somebody else suggested in the thread, since they seem fun and I've never had the chance to play one, and the lack of stats doesn't matter too much to them in combat. Maybe take 1 level in fighter heavy armor/shield proficiency and use the bonus feat for improved initiative. Any wildshape class is a good alternative.

[Seward]

+1 to wild shape ranger, except I'd put the 18 in Con, not Wis.

Yeah, that's solid. I'm old-school enough to never remember that wildshape outside of Druid is really possible. That gives you solid str/dex and attack modes with hitpoints. Some barding put on by party members in the lower levels then Master of Many Forms to get the humanoid/giant etc forms for normal weapons and combat styles later and you're golden.

You even have enough skillpoints to be useful out of combat, in spite of crappy stats, especially if you lean on physical skills where your altered forms boost you up.

[mabriss lethe]

You could pull off a decently functional Dread Necromancer with nothing but Cha 18. You've got minionmancy to handle lots of problems, even without access to necropolitan, you can spring for Tomb Tainted Soul to bolster your survivability.

[Maat Mons]

Maybe a Sorcerer using that Dragon magazine ACF that lets you treat your Charisma as +4 higher for max spell level and bonus spells? Or a Dragonwrought kobold so you can be venerable without taking the penalties? How does tainted spellcasting work again?

[NinjaGuy]

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/3d1ff0a043459ef4751abc348f447440dcc68ea5/41_0_1800_1080/master/1800.jpg?width=1200&height=900&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&

Dwarven Kung Fu Panda/Dragon, focusing on CON! Dragonborn if you really want. Alls you gotsta do is...


Grab a level of Lion (Call it Bear? or Dragon depending?) Totem Barbarian, and Extra Rage.
Monk 2 for Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush without the STR reqs, IUS, and Invisible Fist, cause what's scarier than fighting a bear? An invisible bear... Great Fortitude @3rd.
Grab a couple of levels of full BAB Fighter or Warblade. Kung Fu flavored maneuvers for added fun, or Tiger (call it Bear/Dragon?) Claw? IHS is always nice...
Fist of the Forest for 3 levels, for more synflavorgy (it's a word), and that sweet, sweet CON to AC.
Now grab yourself a level of Bear Warrior, putting the Panda in Kung Fu Panda/Dragon!?!
Mix in 4 levels of WarShaper, cause it's all gravy. 5th isn't necessary for a Bear Warrior.
Get yourself the Black Bear form from Bear Warrior, double your scent along the way.
End with whatever you want! Deepwarden for 2xCON to AC? Sure. More Warblade? Sure. Monk to 4 and you can punch a Ghost? Sure. Barbarian to 4 for Improved Uncanny and more Rage? Sure. Some Dungeoncrasher, with Shock Trooper? Hahahahah sure... You've got options.



Feats could be Steadfast Determination, extra Extra Rage, Mage Slayer/ Pierce Magical Protection/Concealment, Snap Kick... You're not even feat starved.

Hiya!

[bean illus]

How are you casting any duskblade spells with <10 int until "final stats"? Even then you can only cast cantrips. Are we just investing in a +4 intelligence item? (I mean, that works, I'm just asking)

(First, let me excuse myself. I often look for things to say other than "Wizard!" or "Druid!", and that led to my idea that ability bonuses given as class bonuses could be used to compensate for the proposed puzzle.)

It's true that the 1st level DB spells are not usable upon entering. Nor can a +2 item be afforded til 6th level. But those spells aren't needed as much as everything DB does grant. As i wrote, BAB could be dumped; this is just an easy way to get BAB, martial weapons and armor, and +3 Will, with some (Sp) and combat casting.
As you point out there are numerous ways to front load dips. Cleric could grant travel devo, and/or wizard for abrupt jaunt. I only described one choice, one which assumes spells are fully covered by chameleon.



For the rest of it - you're not a martial unless you are a crossbow sniper and can get dex to damage. You're not a primary caster with final attributes of 10 13 and 8, although I grant you could be some kind of utility/support caster using enhancement items to cast spells at all.

What purpose do you serve in the party other than just staying alive (which won't be hard if you can't do anything enemies find dangerous)?

I'm probably missing something. Chameleons were never allowed in any game I played and I may be missing a nuance here, ... . But just taking everything you said at face value and assuming the table was fine with it, how do you contribute?


No, it's not a martial, and yes, i think you're missing something. Am i reading you correctly?

Chameleon has a class ability called Aptitude Boon, which scales at +2, +4, +6 competence bonus in both casting stats (or Dex or Str, if desired). With a +2 item at 6th, your 1st level spells are available.

It's difficult to comprehend exactly what 1st level spells means to a chameleon, without studying the Chameleon Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=135.0). The list includes numerous primo 2nd and 3rd level spells. This pattern extends throughout the classes advancement, always granting some spells above normal access that a cleric, wizard, bard, or druid would have.

At 8th level a +4 item can probably be afforded, and the inherent bonus begins to deliver. But it soon won't be needed, as fox's cunning and owl's wisdom become available on wands/scrolls/etc. Soon after, even all the bonus spell slots are available in both arcane and divine casting. Eventually the casting stat items are unneeded, and the gold can be spent elsewhere.

At character level 12, they cast at CL 14, and cast 5th level spells. At 15th, 8th level spells are cast at CL 20. At 17th level, wish is available. You also have access to any 8th level spell in the game (and many 9ths). A decently optimized chameleon is no slouch.

As far as combat, if you are forced, you cast in full armor, and can channel Tree Shape as early as 7th level, if you take DB 3 (no save, no SR).

I hope that answers why i think chameleon would work here, and what and how one contributes to a party.

[Seward]

Thanks for the explanation. I never got much into Eberron, the only campaign we planned to start there ended up in Golarion.....

[Lans]

A stalwart battle sorcerer could work. The more hp than normal sorcerer at the cost of 1 spell a level