Soulknife/Monk Multiclass - Anyone tried this?

[Pooky the Imp]

Something I noticed recently was that the Soulknife's Psychic Blade count as Monk Weapons:


Also at 3rd level, You can manifest your psionic power as shimmering blades of psychic energy. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade. This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties. It has a normal range of 60 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to 1d6 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll. The blade vanishes immediately after it hits or misses its target, and it leaves no mark on its target if it deals damage.


At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property.

So, unless I'm missing something, you can use them with Martial Arts and (at high levels) even get extra damage with them from the Martial Arts die.

I've seen people do Rogue/Monk multiclasses with, for example, Shadow Monks. And a Lv3 dip into Soulknife gets the Monk 4 skills plus the ability to add a d6 to a skill check several times per day, plus the ability to establish group telepathy for several hours, plus 2d6 sneak attack, plus Cunning Action, plus the psychic blades (which also give the Monk a decent ranged weapon).

Thus, I was wondering if anyone had tried a Soulknife 3/Monk X build? If not, any thoughts on the concept?

[Kane0]

Sounds perfectly functional, although id be tempted to just ask the DM if you could transplant the soulknife subclass onto the monk. I believe there was a UA version at some stage?

[Waazraath]

Something I noticed recently was that the Soulknife's Psychic Blade count as Monk Weapons:





So, unless I'm missing something, you can use them with Martial Arts and (at high levels) even get extra damage with them from the Martial Arts die.

I've seen people do Rogue/Monk multiclasses with, for example, Shadow Monks. And a Lv3 dip into Soulknife gets the Monk 4 skills plus the ability to add a d6 to a skill check several times per day, plus the ability to establish group telepathy for several hours, plus 2d6 sneak attack, plus Cunning Action, plus the psychic blades (which also give the Monk a decent ranged weapon).

Thus, I was wondering if anyone had tried a Soulknife 3/Monk X build? If not, any thoughts on the concept?

Hadn't thought about it, nice find!

[follacchioso]

In principle it works and it could be a good build. I'm playing a Soulknife rogue and this interests me.

However, would you really stop at three levels of rogue?
Another level gets you an ASI, which is good on MAD classes such as the monk.
Reaching level 5 brings you Uncanny Dodge, a very powerful defensive option for a melee fighter. Would you skip on that?

At the same time, investing so many levels in Rogue means a slower Monk progression - including less Ki points, smaller damage dice, and lots of features missed.

[Dork_Forge]

It could work, though is a little clunky:

-Your main attack routine would be using the Soulknife's bonus attack, not Martial Arts, whilst still using Flurry of Blows for spike damage. Your damage will look nice initially from the Sneak Attack, but will taper off after a few levels unless you address it (likely with your choice of Monk subclass).

Something to think about though:

If you choose Kensei, and pick your Blades as your Kensei weapon, then you could use Kensei's Shot on an Extra Attack throwing two of them, but getting an additional 1d4 to each. You'd also be able to throw Deft Strike on for crits/spike damage and depending on how your DM rules, you could use Sharpen the Blade on your dagger.

[Thunderous Mojo]

One of the issues I foresee with a Monk/Rogue Mulit-Class is that both classes need level advancement to be devoted to either class to receive the best benefits.

Evasion requires 7 levels in either class. A Rogue’s Cunning Action is largely duplicated by a monk’s Ki Abilities.

A dedicated Psi Knife eventually gains access to a limited use Teleportation power, so mixing in monk levels might actually decrease the character’s effective mobility, depending upon the composition of the character’s levels and what Level Tier the campaign achieves.

5 levels of Monk on a Psi Knife might be interesting for access to Stunning Strike at 13th Character Level, (assuming 7 levels of Rogue for Evasion).

[Dork_Forge]

One of the issues I foresee with a Monk/Rogue Mulit-Class is that both classes need level to be devoted to either class to receive the best benefits.

Evasion requires 7 levels in either class. A Rogue’s Cunning Action is largely duplicated by a monk’s Ki Abilities.

A dedicated Psi Knife eventually gains access to a limited use Teleportation power, so mixing in monk levels might actually decrease the character’s effective mobility, depending upon the composition of the character’s levels and what Level Tier the campaign achieves.

5 levels of Monk on a Psi Knife might be interesting for access to Stunning Strike at 13th Character Level, (assuming 7 levels of Rogue for Evasion).

You can see the bolded as a benefit, what a Monk would normally need Ki for becomes free, opening up options.

[Thunderous Mojo]

You can see the bolded as a benefit, what a Monk would normally need Ki for becomes free, opening up options.

Saving Ki points is only a major concern if you have limited Monk levels, which will typically mean one is saving their Ki Points for Stunning Strike or to power a Monk Subclass ability or an Ability like Focused Aim.

Well played Monks, do not need to use Step of the Wind/Patient Defense every round. Psychic Blades and Martial Arts both grant an always available Bonus Action attack…essentially the character is acquiring options that tend to do similar things.

Broadening one’s Focus might better serve the character…a Warlock dip can largely replicate what a Shadow Monk can do, for example…and one can get Hexblade’s Curse for Damage spikes.

The optional Monk ability of Focused Aim, reduces the need for a Rogue to ‘stock up’ on Extra or Bonus Action attacks to land Sneak Attacks…..all in all…there might be too much overlap in features, to make the combo ideal.

It would be fun combo, though…a 5 or 6 level Monk dip on a Psi Knife would be worth it for Extra Attack, Stunning Strike, and Patient Defense.

[Psyren]

If not, any thoughts on the concept?

My biggest thought unfortunately would be "why?" Yes, you can combine the two, but the monk is just watering the Soulknife down. Yes, you'd gain the higher martial arts damage die on both your main and bonus action attacks, which sounds nice - but to get there you're giving up much higher sneak attack damage to do so, so it actually ends up falling behind. And that's on rounds where you're able to use your bonus action to MA or Flurry - on rounds where you can't, e.g. you're using Cunning Action or Step of the Wind etc, the damage difference is even worse, and gets worse still if you're able to reliably reaction attack for 2 sneak attacks per round. Your stats are also worse because you need to invest in Wisdom to be able to survive in melee without armor and still get this benefit.

If you're playing in a game without any feats I could see this combo having some value (since you'll likely have ASIs left over after maxing out Dex to then allocate to maxing out Wis), but in games with feats you have much better uses for those ASIs.

[Evaar]

You're right that the blades can be Monk weapons, but I'm not sure they offer much.

The real value of the Psychic Blades is the free bonus action attack. Monks already get that via martial arts. Monks can already effectively attack without having to carry a weapon on their person. They don't need their attacks to deal psychic damage since their unarmed attacks become magical - magical bludgeoning damage is, I believe, even less likely to be resisted than psychic.

A 3 level dip isn't trivial, either. That's 3 Ki points the Monk could have. Arguably Cunning Action could be saving some Ki, but only when you would've spent Ki on Step of the Wind which is probably the least frequently used basic Ki spender. Those 3 levels also mean slower progress on your martial arts die size, and that much longer to reach Extra Attack or other important/useful Monk features.

Soulknife similarly gains little from the Monk. At 5 you'll get Stunning Strike and Extra Attack, so that's something, but before and after that it's pretty slim pickings.

This is another case where I think the multiclass ends up being less effective than just playing a pure class version of one or the other.

Still a good catch that the psychic blades count as Monk weapons, though. But the actual utility seems limited to me; you'd probably be better off playing a full class Dhampir Shadow Monk and using your vampiric bite as a monk weapon (not to suggest that's a "broken" build either, just that there's a bit more utility for that than the psychic blades).

[Witty Username]

I don't think soulknife is better served by monk levels than ranger or battlemaster fighter, fighting styles work rather nice with soulknife and I don't think they get much value from stunning strike. Battlemaster is notable because the maneuvers are are about as impactful as stunning strike and come online earlier.

[Pooky the Imp]

Oh, that's disappointing. Guess that's why it's better to ask before trying this stuff out.




Still a good catch that the psychic blades count as Monk weapons, though. But the actual utility seems limited to me; you'd probably be better off playing a full class Dhampir Shadow Monk and using your vampiric bite as a monk weapon (not to suggest that's a "broken" build either, just that there's a bit more utility for that than the psychic blades).

I'm sure you're right but I'm afraid that build doesn't interest me. Thanks anyway.

[elyktsorb]

A 3 level dip isn't trivial, either. That's 3 Ki points the Monk could have. Arguably Cunning Action could be saving some Ki, but only when you would've spent Ki on Step of the Wind which is probably the least frequently used basic Ki spender. Those 3 levels also mean slower progress on your martial arts die size, and that much longer to reach Extra Attack or other important/useful Monk features.


In theory (assuming you go to lvl 20) 3 levels is a perfect dip for a Monk into Rouge, since you don't miss out on your d10 die progression. You get your Monk subclass capstone.

You get Steady Aim, which is a good fallback if you 'need' to hit with the Stunning Strike and don't have any, or run out of other options for advantage.

Cunning Action alone makes up for the 3 lost ki points in level with the amount you can freely disengage and dash.

But after that the synergy really drops off. Arcane Trickster is probably the best subclass to take because getting Shield + utility cantrips is way better than a thrown weapon you don't have to worry about getting back. Especially as the bonus action attack you can make with the blade is specifically said to be a d4 instead of a d6 in the ability, which may mean that part won't benefit from Monk die progression.

And that's not even mentioning that there are probably better magic weapons you could have on a Monk.

To top it off the two abilities Psi-Bolstered Knack, and Psychic Whispers aren't all that useful. Psi-Knack simply because most Monks aren't built with doing skill checks in mind, sure it might help with your occasional acrobatics' check, or perception, but you likely won't even rely on it to save your butt.

And Psychic Whispers is a fluffy thing to begin with.


Past that, there's no want to level each class equally, as not only do they need their own levels for their class based resources, but a lot of the abilities between them overlap. Uncanny Dodge is good on paper, but by the time you get to it (assuming you level evenly) you're fighting enemies with multiple attacks.

Evasion won't stack.

If you know you're not going to level 20, and end up at 11+ then I'd take 4 levels in Rouge just for the asi. The extra damage from your sneak dice (as long as you get it consistently) should help make up for getting Extra Attack later.

And there's not much reason for a Rogue to take a Monk dip, anything you could get from 3 levels of Monk you could probably get from a different class.

[Evaar]

In theory (assuming you go to lvl 20) 3 levels is a perfect dip for a Monk into Rouge, since you don't miss out on your d10 die progression.

I never assume characters are going to 20, and weight substantial feature delays far more heavily than an assessment of the final build when the character is ready to retire. I can only speak to my own experience, but that’s been a more efficacious way of determining whether a build will be fun and useful for me.

[Psyren]

This is another case where I think the multiclass ends up being less effective than just playing a pure class version of one or the other.


Agreed.



To top it off the two abilities Psi-Bolstered Knack, and Psychic Whispers aren't all that useful. Psi-Knack simply because most Monks aren't built with doing skill checks in mind, sure it might help with your occasional acrobatics' check, or perception, but you likely won't even rely on it to save your butt.

And Psychic Whispers is a fluffy thing to begin with.

Lolwut? Two-way telepathic communication that lasts for hours, doesn't need a common language, covers a mile, is often free and can be established between multiple creatures at a time is "fluffy?" That's practically a 5th-level spell, and they get it at level 3! And not only is it great for scouting, it lets you strategize in front of enemies during combat! :smalleek:

Did I mention it continues to scale even if you multiclass?

As for Psi-Knack - you only expend the die if it makes you succeed, so there's no reason not to add it to every ability check you make where failure is a worry. They're both fantastic.

[Pooky the Imp]

But after that the synergy really drops off. Arcane Trickster is probably the best subclass to take because getting Shield + utility cantrips is way better than a thrown weapon you don't have to worry about getting back. Especially as the bonus action attack you can make with the blade is specifically said to be a d4 instead of a d6 in the ability, which may mean that part won't benefit from Monk die progression.

Wait, why wouldn't it work? It's still a Monk weapon if you're using it for the extra/off-hand attack, so I don't see why it wouldn't be eligible for the Monk Weapon damage dice.

[Psyren]

Wait, why wouldn't it work? It's still a Monk weapon if you're using it for the extra/off-hand attack, so I don't see why it wouldn't be eligible for the Monk Weapon damage dice.

Yeah I would definitely rule that the MA die gets to override the BA attack as well. It doesn't help much but it's something.

[Dork_Forge]

Wait, why wouldn't it work? It's still a Monk weapon if you're using it for the extra/off-hand attack, so I don't see why it wouldn't be eligible for the Monk Weapon damage dice.


Yeah I would definitely rule that the MA die gets to override the BA attack as well. It doesn't help much but it's something.

Personally I'd let the MA replace it, but I think this falls into PAM territory, if your DM says the d4 for the bonus can be replaced then it's probably the same for the Soulknife bonus. I don't think that works RAW/RAI as the bonus action is specific vs general, which is how JC has ruled on Shillelagh vs PAM.

[Psyren]

Personally I'd let the MA replace it, but I think this falls into PAM territory, if your DM says the d4 for the bonus can be replaced then it's probably the same for the Soulknife bonus. I don't think that works RAW/RAI as the bonus action is specific vs general, which is how JC has ruled on Shillelagh vs PAM.

Good call, wasn't aware of that ruling.