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KOLE
2022-01-19, 10:36 AM
Hey playground,

I’ve been curious about running a sci fi RPG for a while now, and I’ve done some digging. I really like the Traveller system, but this may not be the best fit for my group. I’ve also heard really good things about the Savage Worlds sci fi supplement, but before I pulled the trigger on anything, I was curious what you guys prefer and why?

It can be anything Sci Fi- whether “hard” or “soft”, space opera, gritty, cyberpunk, even post scarcity. There’s a lot of different systems out there, and I have no experience with any of them, so I was hoping for some enlightenment if you’d be willing to share.

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-19, 12:04 PM
I've been getting into the new edition of Aeon/Trinity recently. In very broad strokes the premise is: there used to be superheroes (Novas/Aberrants) but everything went very wrong. Eventually there was a baseline/Nova war, which ended with a threat to nuke the entirety of Earth and all the Novas leaving both Earth and the Moon (the majority also left the solar system). Now it's roughly sixty years later and the world has mostly recovered, except for a few areas that got their baseline reality sort of wrecked by the supers messing up. But about fifteen years ago some of the Aberrants returned, now much less human, and launched an attack on earth.

However eight people had managed to build* devices that could awaken psychic powers, reached keyed to a different discipline, and led their orders of psychics against the invaders. Now these psychics help fight to defend reality from returning supers and alien threats! Or do other things, one of the psi orders is the world's best emergency medical services.

There's also a quirk of the setting that, at least at humanity's current technology level, FTL travel requires a Nova or a psychic. When all the teleporters left humanity had to learn how to grow psychic space ships.

It's very soft, the setting runs on science! rather than science, and can probably be best described as 'early days space opera'. Although it does depend on where you set the adventure, North America is much more cyberpunk while Europe got hit very hard by both the Aberrant War and their return, many nations have fractured and France is basically a post-apocalyptic ruin.

System wise it's basically a standard White Wolf game, but with most of the big issues ironed out (XP costs mostly don't scale, the except is power stats cost double at 6+). It does however require a core book as well as a book for the era you want to play.

* Well, kind of. It requires tech they got from aliens.

Eldan
2022-01-19, 01:52 PM
Eclipse Phase has a fantastic setting and a totally obtuse, overcomplex system that I kind of want to learn, but never get the energy to. Maybe I'll just port it to a basic other RPG system. Short summary: the singularity turned into Cthulhu and killed everyone, but now you can upload your mind into an octopus cyborg, if you want.

If Post-Apocalyptic with weird biopunk and magitech counts as SciFi, there's also Degenesis my group has been playing a lot of lately. That's pretty good too, again mostly for the world building. Short summary: giant asteroid hit Europe and caused a new ice age and now an alien virus is mutating everyone, including animals and plants, into psychic monsters. Oh, and a pre-apocalypse megacorp may be responsible.

(One of the reasons I really like this setting is that it subverts quite a few post-apocalyptic tropes: the roving barbarian hordes are actually mostly just... stone-age hunter-gatherer tribers, not punk-rock raiders. Also, people organized and rebuilt the cities like 300 years ago, so there's functioning nations again. They have armies, police forces, health care, communication systems. Africa is now green, rich, cultured and organized, while Europe is a frozen wasteland, thanks to climate change.
And this one's a personal favourite, but Switzerland is a military dictatorship, ruling from their undisturbed mountain bunkers using their pre-war power armor troops. It's hilarious. In fact, the entire game is full of in-jokes for Germans and Swiss people.
It also goes into weird directions, there's hive minds, mind control via pre-war internet memes, artificially created propaganda religions, the immortal pre-war super-rich rising from their cryo-vaults in nanotech-cyborg bodies to be worshipped as gods and a lot of biblical end-time mysticism.)

olskool
2022-01-19, 05:25 PM
I still like Traveller and Mongoose Publishing has done a decent job following Marc Miller's work. Everything is backward compatible with the original game's stuff and Mongoose is still putting out content. IF you are really interested, check out Seth Skorkowsky's reviews of Traveller on YouTube.

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-19, 05:45 PM
My issue with Mongoose Traveller is that 2e doesn't have any kind of spaceship creation rules in its corebook, which is annoying because it's a game about PCs having a starship. Plus even if the players just go with a standard design the GM will likely want to make some new ones for NPCs.

On the other hand, I will admit that with the 1e supplements the Lifepath character creation gets quite in depth.

Telok
2022-01-19, 10:52 PM
I rather like classic Traveller, but I know its not for everyone. I ran a hack of it for almost a year. The hack is based on Frontier First Encounters, a successor to the old Elite space game. I think the link works: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZdcN8ImVwZjgT1ddtemVo_uBOhyNCqFL

Pauly
2022-01-19, 11:12 PM
For setting - Space 1889. A really fun steampunk environment.

For hard sci-fi - Traveller, with the caveat that it's a system that requires the players to do their homework. They can’t just show up and expect to wing it.

For rule of cool sci-fi - Shadowrun (honorable mention - Cyberpunk)

Stonehead
2022-01-20, 04:18 PM
I will always shill for Fragged Empire (http://www.fraggedempire.com/). The setting is pretty fun, post-post apocalypse where everyone is trying to rebuild after a massive war. And the character-building and rules have the perfect level of detail for me. Deep enough that character creation is fun and interesting, but simple enough that there's no real hurdle to learn the game.

Willie the Duck
2022-01-20, 04:50 PM
Eclipse Phase has a fantastic setting and a totally obtuse, overcomplex system that I kind of want to learn, but never get the energy to. Maybe I'll just port it to a basic other RPG system. Short summary: the singularity turned into Cthulhu and killed everyone, but now you can upload your mind into an octopus cyborg, if you want.

My group has mined EP for components, and added them to M-Space, which is a sci-fi port of Mythras (itself a RuneQuest evolution). Since they are both percentile systems, things have gone fairly smoothly. We haven't figured out the whole 'sleeving' thing (getting to be able to switch out to new bodies), but given how complex EP (even 2nd edition) makes it, I'd say they haven't either.

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-20, 05:10 PM
Honestly if I ever run Eclipse Phase I'll likely use the Fate hack. It's not amazing, but it's better than the actual Eclipse Phase rules.

Speaking of Fate based SF games, I should really read that Mindjammer book I have

LibraryOgre
2022-01-20, 05:24 PM
Honestly if I ever run Eclipse Phase I'll likely use the Fate hack. It's not amazing, but it's better than the actual Eclipse Phase rules.


At one point, I sat down with two friends to try and make characters. It took HOURS.

Bear in mind, these two friends? Engineers who work with NASA. It was literally too complex for two rocket scientists and a semi-pro game designer.

Ad res: I use Savage Worlds for a lot of things; it's simple and adapts well. I've made Star Wars and Mass Effect hacks for it, as well as Shadowrun (which is sci-fi, even if it's also cyberpunk and fantasy).

Fading Suns was a fun, Dune/Warhammer/lots of other stuff mash-up.

Mechalich
2022-01-20, 08:16 PM
Eclipse Phase is actually like D&D in that it's a kitchen sink setting, it's just that instead of the kitchen sink being 'all fantasy published from 1920 to 1975' as in D&D the Eclipse Phase case is 'all speculative science fiction published 1985 - 2010.' The result, a setting and system overstuffed to the proverbial gills, is remarkably similar. Eclipse Phase is slightly more coherent because it's source of inspiration is narrower and a lot of the authors involved cross-pollinated heavily but the trends are the same. And, yes, the actually rules system is a hideous monstrosity.

Eclipse Phase is a really good source of inspiration, since it's much easier to go through its (free!) books and mine them for things you would want to be in your science fiction setting rather than read ~150 often quite lengthy novels (though the 'inspiration' section of the Eclipse Phase core book is a great reading list).

Eclipse Phase is also notable for getting the central idea right. In a post-scarcity or nearly-post-scarcity society the big question of 'what do I do now' is a huge problem because for most people the answer is simply 'indulge in a lifestyle of endless hedonism.' Horrible mind-searing extinction level threats from beyond the event horizon is exactly the sort of excuse needed to get a party of PCs in motion.

Chronic
2022-01-20, 10:15 PM
Infinity 2d20, excellent system coupled with excellent setting. It's basically humanity 500 years in the future. Humans have colonized a dozen planets, new powers have emerged and face each other's in secret cold wars because full blown wars are incredibly expensive and complicated to do. You have Ai, power armors, 5 meter high robots called Tag (tactical armored gear), plus altered carbon style resurrection, etc. What is cool is that the system can handle most type of gameplay easily. The base "game mode" put you in the shoes of Bureau Noir agents, who act as secret agents/investigators for the equivalent of the United nations. They are supposed to be neutral but often act as double agent for one nation of another. The fun thing about it is that players will have the same main goal in the adventures, but will often have diverging secondary secret objectives they can accomplish for bonus xp. Having players trying to 1ccomplish opposite things in a discrete way will obliged to remain civil is very fun to watch, and post sessions are super cool because players will usually discuss what they had to do and how they tried to do it secretly.
Outside of that the game can handle many type of gameplay, from military action to criminal underworld to mercenary work, cop stories, cyber warriors, political intrigues, and best of all, it can do everything at once is the gm is good. The game stands on 3 pillars, social, combat and hacking, and the nice thing is that the 3 pillars really mesh well. You can use hacking and social warfare in a logical and effective manner in a firefight for example. You also litteraly can have an hacker supporting the group from his comfy chair half a world away. The ennemies cannot kill you if your hacker breach their firewall and lock their weapons, or disconnect their ocular implants, while your social specialist put so much pression on them that some might surrender or flee.
Infinity 2d20 is so much fun.

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-21, 03:30 AM
At one point, I sat down with two friends to try and make characters. It took HOURS.

Bear in mind, these two friends? Engineers who work with NASA. It was literally too complex for two rocket scientists and a semi-pro game designer.

Eh, it's not all that much different to GURPS character creation, there's just a lot more of it. I've gone through character creation and worked it out, but ain't nobody got time to spen on an hour or more per character. There's better character creation rules in the Player's Guide, essentially doing it via a smaller number of packages. It's still not great.

I haven't bothered to pick up 2e as I saw that morphs still have CP costs.

Eclipse Phase is a game with a setting I love and absolutely horrible rules (well, the basic system is fine). I'm glad I own the Fate version, character creation is just standard Fate and morphs become a swappable pair of Aspects and physical Stress track.


But I own a lot of sci-fi RPGs, including the ones for the Big Two*. So I'd like to give an honourable mention to the Girl Genius RPG, because not only is Girl Genius amazing the game also includes a stripped down version of GURPS that is enough to make it standalone while being significantly more expansive than GURPS Lite. Although it is on the very soft end of SF, to the point that the creators apparently don't like it being called Steampunk and prefer Gaslamp Fantasy.

They called me mad. MAD! But now I have the book and I'll show them.

I'LL SHOW THEM ALL!!!

People are already tired of me showing them the book.

* I consider Star Wars fantasy.

farothel
2022-01-21, 05:03 AM
I'm still a huge fan of Alternity. It's an older system, but I really like how it works. While character creation is complicated due to the skill cost (skills have different costs depending on their difficulty, for instance surgery costs more than first aid), but once you're past that all skills are treated the same. It is a lethal system (one shot can kill you), but you know that up front. It has a scifi setting (Stardrive) and a contemporary setting (Dark Matter) with some scifi and even magical elements if you want (those are optional).

Rakaydos
2022-01-21, 07:33 AM
I havnt gotten a chance to try the Astounding Science setting for Urban Jungle yet, which is a pulp retro-scifi setting for a pulp 1920s noir RPG.

I have played Lancer, who's main selling points are strong tactical combat, robust digital tools, and giant fighting robots.

I've got all the books for FFG's star wars RPG (with the symbol dice pool system), and enjoy it whenever I play or run, but some people have trouble wrapping their heads around it's "The dice say something unexpected of the following magnitude happens" system.

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-21, 07:47 AM
I'm still a huge fan of Alternity. It's an older system, but I really like how it works. While character creation is complicated due to the skill cost (skills have different costs depending on their difficulty, for instance surgery costs more than first aid), but once you're past that all skills are treated the same. It is a lethal system (one shot can kill you), but you know that up front. It has a scifi setting (Stardrive) and a contemporary setting (Dark Matter) with some scifi and even magical elements if you want (those are optional).

What's your thoughts on 2e? It's classless and I think gets rid of skill difficulties, as well as a few other changes.

Also skill difficulties aren't the worst thing in the world. I think GURPS does it well, with it changing just where the skill starts and then having it cost the same per subsequent rank.

olskool
2022-01-21, 08:05 PM
Infinity 2d20, excellent system coupled with excellent setting. It's basically humanity 500 years in the future. Humans have colonized a dozen planets, new powers have emerged and face each other's in secret cold wars because full blown wars are incredibly expensive and complicated to do. You have Ai, power armors, 5 meter high robots called Tag (tactical armored gear), plus altered carbon style resurrection, etc. What is cool is that the system can handle most type of gameplay easily. The base "game mode" put you in the shoes of Bureau Noir agents, who act as secret agents/investigators for the equivalent of the United nations. They are supposed to be neutral but often act as double agent for one nation of another. The fun thing about it is that players will have the same main goal in the adventures, but will often have diverging secondary secret objectives they can accomplish for bonus xp. Having players trying to 1ccomplish opposite things in a discrete way will obliged to remain civil is very fun to watch, and post sessions are super cool because players will usually discuss what they had to do and how they tried to do it secretly.
Outside of that the game can handle many type of gameplay, from military action to criminal underworld to mercenary work, cop stories, cyber warriors, political intrigues, and best of all, it can do everything at once is the gm is good. The game stands on 3 pillars, social, combat and hacking, and the nice thing is that the 3 pillars really mesh well. You can use hacking and social warfare in a logical and effective manner in a firefight for example. You also litteraly can have an hacker supporting the group from his comfy chair half a world away. The ennemies cannot kill you if your hacker breach their firewall and lock their weapons, or disconnect their ocular implants, while your social specialist put so much pression on them that some might surrender or flee.
Infinity 2d20 is so much fun.

I have Conan 2D20 and I have wondered about this game and the Mutant Chronicles.

olskool
2022-01-21, 08:11 PM
My issue with Mongoose Traveller is that 2e doesn't have any kind of spaceship creation rules in its corebook, which is annoying because it's a game about PCs having a starship. Plus even if the players just go with a standard design the GM will likely want to make some new ones for NPCs.

On the other hand, I will admit that with the 1e supplements the Lifepath character creation gets quite in depth.

That's funny. You mention that there are no rules for ship design (they are in the High Guard supplement), and the 2022 release of the Mongoose Traveller game now includes a limited/abridged version of High Guard's rules. Seth Skorkowsky just released a video on them.

Although WE never played them that way, Traveller 1st edition had the character generation "mini-game" where you could ACTUALLY DIE!
You haven't lived until you've died in character creation...

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-22, 06:03 AM
I have Conan 2D20 and I have wondered about this game and the Mutant Chronicles.

I think Star Trek Adventures uses the same system?

Although the best thing about that is it's presentation as a Star Trek data terminal


That's funny. You mention that there are no rules for ship design (they are in the High Guard supplement), and the 2022 release of the Mongoose Traveller game now includes a limited/abridged version of High Guard's rules. Seth Skorkowsky just released a video on them.

Although WE never played them that way, Traveller 1st edition had the character generation "mini-game" where you could ACTUALLY DIE!
You haven't lived until you've died in character creation...

I'm not a big fan of having to buy two books to get what was in the previous edition's corebook. Especially as, IIRC, 2e is significantly thicker.

olskool
2022-01-22, 02:19 PM
I think Star Trek Adventures uses the same system?

Although the best thing about that is it's presentation as a Star Trek data terminal



I'm not a big fan of having to buy two books to get what was in the previous edition's corebook. Especially as, IIRC, 2e is significantly thicker.

You obviously weren't the only one who took issue with the missing ship rules or Mongoose wouldn't have added them to the 2022 printing.

Archpaladin Zousha
2022-01-22, 03:57 PM
I'm an enormous fan of Starfinder but I understand the tightly-connected ruleset and setting may turn some folks off.

So alongside that, I'll share this recommendation (https://mobile.twitter.com/AmazonChique/status/1483188110858936321) from the great Crystal Frasier, one of my favorite TTRPG writers. I don't have these books myself yet, but I'm eager to pick them up and give them a try!

farothel
2022-01-25, 08:53 AM
What's your thoughts on 2e? It's classless and I think gets rid of skill difficulties, as well as a few other changes.

Also skill difficulties aren't the worst thing in the world. I think GURPS does it well, with it changing just where the skill starts and then having it cost the same per subsequent rank.

I've never played it and I don't have any of the books, so I can't really comment on it. Might be interesting to check out though, to see the differences.

Psyren
2022-01-25, 04:01 PM
Starfinder is easy to pick up for any group familiar with D&D (doubly so Pathfinder), and can fairly easily do any/all of the genres listed in the OP.

Sol
2022-01-25, 04:12 PM
I'm a big fan of FFG's Star Wars RPG, and i don't even particularly care about star wars.

Its talent tree-based character progression, wealth of equipment and crafting options, and dice system are all a lot of fun.

I particularly enjoy the breadth of customization options, the sheer number of archetypes covered, the fact that you can (usually) purchase a new skill or tree upgrade every 1-2 sessions rather than having to wait for major level milestones for any progression, and the fact that one die roll's results can contain a failure, a minor negative consequence, and a major unintended good side effect.

I will say that the dice are a little tedious to roll and tally physically, and that the die sets provide insufficient numbers of some of the dies, which exacerbates this problem. Thankfully, there's several excellent online rollers and discord bots.

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-25, 04:40 PM
Starfinder is easy to pick up for any group familiar with D&D (doubly so Pathfinder), and can fairly easily do any/all of the genres listed in the OP.

On the other hand it's potentially incredibly fiddly and has all the issues of D&D as well. Even worse than pathfinder actually, due to the need for additional subsystems in the corebook and potential issues such as the need to use items close to your level to not have wildly out of balance damage.

I'd seriously recommend something like Frontier Space or Alternity 2e over it. Yes they're both skill based instead of class based, but they're also both much, much simpler than Starfinder. Also Aeon and Star Trek Adventures, which are more complicated than FS and Alternity2 but better at their specific things.

Psyren
2022-01-25, 05:17 PM
"Issues of D&D" is a feature for some, especially from a learning curve perspective. But I won't debate that here.
"Use items close to your level" is an odd complaint though :smallconfused: most RPGs do that, especially non-tabletop.

Other advantage to Starfinder - it's OGL, so OP's group is free to give it a try (https://aonsrd.com/) and mess around with it without many (any) up-front costs.

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-25, 05:44 PM
"Issues of D&D" is a feature for some, especially from a learning curve perspective. But I won't debate that here.
"Use items close to your level" is an odd complaint though :smallconfused: most RPGs do that, especially non-tabletop.

The corebook equipment list have gaps. Particularly weapons.

Want to play Rey from the new Star Wars movies? There's a level 1 staff, a level 7 staff, and a level 19 staff, meaning you have to either abandon your staff or lag behind in damage at later levels. Some other weapon categories only have one option, so I'm hoping you weren't planning to use a flamethrower or needler past level 5!

It's also just weird for a SF tabletop RPG, which don't tend to have 'end game sidearms' which out damage the heavy weapons the PCs were using mid game. They tend to go for Skill scaling over damage scaling, as well as weapon modding over replacement if they're detailed enough for this to matter.

Psyren
2022-01-26, 12:38 AM
The corebook equipment list have gaps. Particularly weapons.

Want to play Rey from the new Star Wars movies? There's a level 1 staff, a level 7 staff, and a level 19 staff, meaning you have to either abandon your staff or lag behind in damage at later levels. Some other weapon categories only have one option, so I'm hoping you weren't planning to use a flamethrower or needler past level 5!

Do you really need them to spoonfeed you with a full 20 levels of progression for every single weapon when you can fill in the blanks yourself? Come on now.

Also the Armory is OGL (like everything else they published) if you truly need more examples of the stuff you mentioned. You're not limited to core even if you'd rather not spend a dime.



It's also just weird for a SF tabletop RPG, which don't tend to have 'end game sidearms' which out damage the heavy weapons the PCs were using mid game. They tend to go for Skill scaling over damage scaling, as well as weapon modding over replacement if they're detailed enough for this to matter.

How is that any weirder than a +5 impact dagger outdamaging a +2 longsword? Or to use a sci-fi example, a Widow X from Mass Effect outdamaging a Mantis III? I don't see what's so earth-shattering about "high-level gear > low-level gear."

Chronic
2022-01-26, 07:52 AM
I agree that the weapon system is a bit of a mess in starfinder. One of the fun thing about futuristic setting is the variety of weaponry and their effects. And if there is a lot of weapon type, they mostly feel the same. Additional effects on crit is a bad mechanic to make weapons properly distinct. If you add to that a combat system which is mostly boring (DM: what do you do? Player: I stay immobile and shoot as much as I'm allowed to. This example cover 75% of the actions taken during combat), it leaves starfinder in a weird place.

Telok
2022-01-26, 11:11 AM
Plus adding biometric door locks on a spaceship or putting some workout equipment & mats in an empty hold prevents you from upgrading the weapons, shields, etc., as much.

Hey, did they ever come up with how to deal with the 1d4 rounds of radiation poisoning from a nuke, or the "does 2d6 damage to crew member" guns, hitting a npc ship with any crew? That was an issue from like, day one.

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-26, 11:41 AM
Do you really need them to spoonfeed you with a full 20 levels of progression for every single weapon when you can fill in the blanks yourself? Come on now.

I'd rather not have to spend the time reverse engineer formulas when they could have given me the stats. Or you know, one ****ing laser gun that doesn't become useless when I get more skills, with some variations or modifications suited for different circumstances.

For example a lasgun and a shorter ranged armour piercing hot-shot lasgun.


Also the Armory is OGL (like everything else they published) if you truly need more examples of the stuff you mentioned. You're not limited to core even if you'd rather not spend a dime.

So now I have to look at a second book to get the full weapon's table? Plus blargh, srd websites are horrible to navigate.


How is that any weirder than a +5 impact dagger outdamaging a +2 longsword? Or to use a sci-fi example, a Widow X from Mass Effect outdamaging a Mantis III? I don't see what's so earth-shattering about "high-level gear > low-level gear."

Well clearly the dagger has had a lot of modifications. It's not just powerful because it's the level 28 dagger that costs tend of thousands of [currency].

But honestly, why should characters need cool stuff to be cool? The D&D gear treadmill is very much a YMMV thing.

Plus wow, I remember that gear system. I'm sure the Mass Effect Devs kept it around rather than going for, for example, a small number of weapons you modified as the game went on. Although I do seem to remember ME not being a tabletop game...

Psyren
2022-01-26, 12:39 PM
@Anonymous - I'm not trying to make you like SF, the OP asked for suggestions and that one was mine. I find several of your complaints rather spurious (additional books contain more content, and item level being a shorthand abstraction being standouts) but if you don't like the system that's fine. The facts remain that SF is both free to play and quite popular, especially as sci-fi TTRPGs go, so it's worthy of both being proposed and looked into if someone hasn't already.

@Chronic - weapons don't just differentiate on a crit. A flamethrower, a full-auto minigun, a sniper rifle, an RPG, a cryo-pistol and a beamsaber all play very differently whether you crit or not.

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-26, 12:58 PM
@Anonymous - I'm not trying to make you like SF, the OP asked for suggestions and that one was mine. I find several of your complaints rather spurious (additional books contain more content, and item level being a shorthand abstraction being standouts) but if you don't like the system that's fine. The facts remain that SF is both free to play and quite popular, especially as sci-fi TTRPGs go, so it's worthy of both being proposed and looked into if someone hasn't already.

And I've continued to give my opinion as to why it's a terrible option.

I'm also not convinced that more content is better. There's an argument to be made for a tightly designed experience that fits into a single book'

The fact is, there are large issues with Starfinder that boil down to 'they didn't change much from D&D 3.5'. Which might not be an issue for some people, but it can cause massive issues when trying to run something in a vastly different genre that doesn't have the same assumptions. It doesn't do much well beyond reskinned D&D, which is an issue if you want Star Trek, Doctor Who, Neuromancer, or Foundation (just to pick four examples).

Psyren
2022-01-26, 01:06 PM
I'm also not convinced that more content is better. There's an argument to be made for a tightly designed experience that fits into a single book'

When your business model is "design and sell additional books" this stance is both unreasonable and unrealistic. More importantly, it's hardly unique to Paizo, nor WotC for that matter.



The fact is, there are large issues with Starfinder that boil down to 'they didn't change much from D&D 3.5'.

Your subjective opinion of 3.5 and offshoots thereof is just that.

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-26, 01:49 PM
When your business model is "design and sell additional books" this stance is both unreasonable and unrealistic. More importantly, it's hardly unique to Paizo, nor WotC for that matter.

It's also not a universal business model, and as it's well known that most people only buy the corebook that book should stand on it's own.

'The corebook only supports certain weapons at certain levels, due to using a levelled gear system instead of a gear modification system' is important information.

Especially as the corebook is big, 524 pages of which only ~70 are setting in my collection Star Trek Adventures is 382 with 30 pages of setting, the Doctor Who RPG is 255 with no major setting chapter, Rocket Age is 255 with ~90 pages of setting, Those Dark Places is 127 pages of roughly half the size, Frontier Space hits about 510 across two books but is complete, and Trinity: Aeon requires about 600 slightly smaller pages with ~150 dedicated to setting (skipping Mindjammer because argh that game is a mess). Starfinder is about tied for the heaviest set of SF core rules I own, reading the book is a big ask and so the book should make the options it presents meaningfully complete.

Yes, Aeon has pretty much the same ask. I personally find the setting better, but it's not for the faint of heart. Whether or not that sheer amount of book is worth it, well, see below


Your subjective opinion of 3.5 and offshoots thereof is just that.

Yes, but the fact that it doesn't actually do anything to solve the potential issues people have with said game is important information. For some people it's no issue, to others it's a big one (as you can tell by the many fantasy heartbreakers out there).

Psyren
2022-01-26, 02:05 PM
It's also not a universal business model, and as it's well known that most people only buy the corebook that book should stand on it's own.

It does. Having 20 item levels for every weapon in existence is not a requirement for core.

And to reiterate, the entire system is OGL - so "most people only buy the corebook" is an irrelevant statistic even if true. Unlike many TTRPGs, you don't have to buy anything else.



Yes, but the fact that it doesn't actually do anything to solve the potential issues people have with said game is important information. For some people it's no issue, to others it's a big one (as you can tell by the many fantasy heartbreakers out there).

If you get three 3.5 players in a room, you'll have seven conflicting opinions on what the "issues" with the edition were. Wasting text on that in the rulebook to satisfy a few upset forumites is not a good use of time or real estate, even if they could somehow pull it off.

Seriously, this is one the most (if not the most) active remaining 3.5 forums on the web. Make a thread asking what the issues with 3.5 were, and demand that nobody argue; let me know how it goes for you.

Lord Torath
2022-01-26, 03:25 PM
I don't have a lot of experience playing SF RPGs. Pretty much just Shadowrun and Deathwatch. I've really wanted to play Robotech, but never found a game or a group.

Shadowrun is an awesome setting, and the 1E and 2E (my preferred edition) books really bring it to life. It is plagued with high crunch and lots of 'solo-play' subsystems, which the various editions try to address in various ways. I've still found it an awful lot of fun.

One of the things I really like about Deathwatch is Squad Mode and the squad mode abilities. Gives you much more to do than just 'stand in cover and shoot as fast as I can.'
Also, the starting weapons are still relevant in the late game, even if they're not quite as effective as some of the late-game weapons (assuming this is something that bothers you). You don't have the end-game pistol inflicting more damage than the early game heavy weapons. And, of course, the Warhammer 40,000 setting is evocative.

Palladium Robotech has a lot of issues (Mark Hall used to work for Palladium, so he can probably give you a better rundown than I could, through my rose-tinted glasses), but I loved the show as a kid, and I always wanted to play it.

Edit: Mark Hall freelanced for Palladium, per his reply below. My mistake.

LibraryOgre
2022-01-27, 11:47 AM
Palladium Robotech has a lot of issues (Mark Hall used to work for Palladium, so he can probably give you a better rundown than I could, through my rose-tinted glasses), but I loved the show as a kid, and I always wanted to play it.

For clarity, I was a Palladium Freelancer; I didn't precisely work for them in the "employed by them for a salary or hourly".

There's now a Savage Worlds Robotech (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/273522/Robotech-A-Macross-Saga-RPG-SWAdE-Revised?affiliate_id=315505), and Lancer. (https://massif-press.itch.io/)

If you've got the old Robotech books, or even the 2000s era stuff, the Palladium system isn't BAD. But it isn't good. It's clunky, and tends to have a damage sponge quality unless you can spend a bunch of missiles. Skills are binary pass/fail, and they either provide you a ton of modifiers or none at all.

Another fun one? Hard Wired Island (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/354684/Hard-Wired-Island?affiliate_id=315505).

Eldan
2022-01-28, 05:12 AM
Palladium Freelancer

Which also sounds a lot like the name of a battlemech.

LibraryOgre
2022-01-28, 11:09 AM
Which also sounds a lot like the name of a battlemech.

One that never makes enough for maintenance. :smallbiggrin:

dafrca
2022-01-28, 11:46 PM
I gave up on Mongoose Traveller around the 2e shift and moved over to The Cepheus Engine for my SciFi needs. I have been thinking of shifting over to the Hostile Rules and Setting as it has a very hard science feel and yet is still very Traveller in style. :smallsmile:

Tanarii
2022-01-29, 08:23 AM
Free League publish (Fria Ligen):
Mutant Year Zero series for post apocalyptic
Colirolis for more traditional sci fi
Alien for space-based horror.

Numenera for far future sci-fi that is effectively magical.

Palladium:
Rifts for a fantasy/sci-fi mashup
Robotech II for a revised update that's a better representation of the series.

Warhammer 40k if you want to play an stooges of an evil empire "heroically" battling other evil empires.

Paranoia for [redacted] "Citizen, your access request will be reviewed once you report for processing in room 3F."

I also see Stars without Number bandied about a lot, but I didn't think much of the WOIN system so ymmv. (edit: woin isn't the same thing per below)

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-29, 09:26 AM
I also see Stars without Number bandied about a lot, but I didn't think much of the WOIN system so ymmv.

Stars Without Number is OSR, the WOIN science fiction game is N.E.W.. Although honestly the sentiment applies to N.E.W. and DWN in my opinion.

Trafalgar
2022-01-29, 10:09 AM
I have been having a lot of fun with Dungeon Crawl Classics so if I was to start playing a Sci Fi RPG, I would probably try the Mutant Crawl Classic rules.

Tanarii
2022-01-29, 12:28 PM
Stars Without Number is OSR, the WOIN science fiction game is N.E.W.. Although honestly the sentiment applies to N.E.W. and DWN in my opinion.
Oops thanks. I was remembering there was a Worlds without number and got it mixed up with WOIN, and it's the latter I didn't really like much. Stars/Worlds may be fine then, and I'll have to check it out without prejudging some time.

Anonymouswizard
2022-01-29, 06:46 PM
Oops thanks. I was remembering there was a Worlds without number and got it mixed up with WOIN, and it's the latter I didn't really like much. Stars/Worlds may be fine then, and I'll have to check it out without prejudging some time.

To be fair, there's nothing really special about either.

On the other games you listed, I really need to get Numenera in print. It might hew much closer to the Standard Fantasy Setting than ideal, but that's not an inherently bad thing.i do wish 2e had shifted Glaives to be more like Vectors in The Strange (who are action heroes rather than warriors).

On that note, for the OP:
The Strange is dimension hopping SF/Fantasy based on the same system as Numenera. It's basically a prototype for the Cypher System generic rulebook, but it has an interesting setting that is possibly more solidly science fiction than Numenera.

Rakaydos
2022-01-31, 06:54 AM
Taking a moment to reiterate the Astounding Science setting for Urban jungle.

The important point being that it's not supposed to be a simulation of reality, it's a simulation of early pulp serials. You shoot a ship, it goes down unless they have an ability to stay alive. Such abilities might be "our ship is big enough to shrug off minor damage (1/scene per instance)", "Shields cant hold it! (action to restore)" or "Exploding console! (damage to a crewmember)", which are only usable if your ship actually has those damage reduction abilities.

Corvus
2022-02-02, 09:31 PM
Trying to think back on what one's I've played or at least had a look at.

Cyberpunk 2020 would be the main one, though I am starting to explore RED as well now.

For out in space silliness its hard to ignore Spelljammer. Okay, technically its fantasy in space rather than scifi.

Fading Suns is basically the Dark Ages in space, and a healthy mash up of Dune/WH40K and a lot of other settings.

I haven't had more than a brief look at the new Dune game from Modiphius but it is based on there 2d20 system. It is interesting as it doesn't have stats - instead the characters have drives (duty, faith, justice, power, truth) which you apply to your rolls depending on if it is appropriate or not. A character with high truth would fight better when doing so to defend the truth rather than to defend a lie.

Easy e
2022-02-03, 12:57 PM
Dune 2D20 from Modiphius has some cool ideas in it.

Edit: Star Wars 2nd Edition from West End Games is also a very fun RPG!

TheSnowHatHero
2022-02-03, 06:27 PM
What's everybody's favorite?
I'm mostly looking for space opera type stuff, but if there's a great other one then I'd love to hear about it.
Thanks in advance.

Catullus64
2022-02-03, 07:47 PM
Dark Heresy is my favorite of a few-odd Sci-Fi RPGs I've played, specifically the 2nd edition, if you're into Warhammer 40,000. For those not versed in 40k stuff, you play as a cell of agents of the Imperial Inquisition, the secret police who root out traitors, aliens, and heretics across the million worlds of the theocratic authoritarian nightmare that is Imperium of Man in the 41st Millenium. It's fun, but your characters will generally not be nice people, but that's ok because the stuff you're dealing with will typically be much worse.

It's got a really fun character creation + advancement system, a wealth of great material on how to use the core game mechanics, challenging tactical combat, a very flavorful system for psychic powers, and an emphasis on the grimy, low-end scale of the 40k universe, which I prefer to all the sturm und drang of the more "important" setting characters and events. The first edition of the game is good, and has a lot of the better modules, but the second edition is more mechanically robust and is much more well-balanced.

It could be adapted reasonably well to a non-40k setting, you'd just need to rename a lot of stuff.

olskool
2022-02-03, 09:01 PM
Check out my reply to the same question a few threads down. Lots of good systems are mentioned there.

MrZJunior
2022-02-03, 09:29 PM
I like Traveller. It's a space opera that has been allowed to gently harden in the harsh light of reality. It's also interesting in that it came out in 1977 a couple months after Star Wars so it has a very different feel from a lot of more modern scifi.

Character creation is its own little mini game. You can die during it without even starting the main game!

Mutazoia
2022-02-04, 12:42 AM
Alternity
Star Frontiers (Original)
WEG Star Wars D6 (or the open D6 rules)
Traveler
Albedo (Furries in Spaaaaaaaaaaace)
Buck Rogers in the 25th Century
Ringworld
Serenity
Star Trek (pick a version)
Stars witnout Number

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-04, 04:29 AM
Link to the other thread on this exact topic (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?641657-What%92s-your-favorite-sci-fi-TTRPG).

In terms of my personal favourite, as I say in the other thread I'm quite into Trinity Continuum: Aeon at the moment, it's psychics versus corrupted superheroes! It lacks some focus with things like America being cyberpunk, West Europe being post-apocalyptic, and so on, but I like the core idea, the fluff, and both the powers and organisations presented for PCs are flavourful.

On the downside it's not quite space opera. You can tell such stories: have the PCs on an Aeon Trinity jump ship or play Upeo wa Macho (who are almost 100% teleporters) during their exile, but it's worth bearing in mind. It's also worth noting that you will need two relatively pricy books to play the current edition, which is admittedly a barrier (the core rulebook is focused on modern far adventures with lucky and skilled protagonists, like spy fiction or crime dramas).

The prequel Aberrant set during the superhero era is very popular.

Other options include Stellar Adventures (Advanced Fighting Fantasy IN SPACE) and Frontier Space (a thematic remake of Star Frontiers).

Pauly
2022-02-04, 11:44 PM
I’ll expand a little on what I wrote on the other thread.

For me Space 1889 is the top of the heap for space opera. It’s a steampunk world originally written before steampunk was a thing, it weaves real world and the sci-fi of H G Wells and Jules Verne together.
The setting assumes characters of proper breeding and class, or at least the majority of players to be so. This makes for fun roleplaying and avoids the grittier gloomier cyberpunk or grimdark worlds. The setting kind of forces you into a more light hearted environment, which works well if you’re looking for space opera.

The sci-fi element, assuming you avoid real world plots, is humanity exploring newly discovered worlds. This gives real potential for zero to hero character growth that fits naturally within the setting. Court intrigue in strange lands is a staple of old school space opera, and it’s pretty easy for a GM to cut and paste Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers adventures into the plot.

Psyren
2022-02-05, 05:57 PM
Starfinder as mentioned in the other topic. Free, d20-based, easy for D&D alums to pick up.

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-05, 06:14 PM
Starfinder as mentioned in the other topic. Free, d20-based, easy for D&D alums to pick up.

And to repeat as well: solves none of the issues D&D has (and if you dislike hp/damage inflation it actually doubles down on that).

But if you want D&D in space it does that.


Also some other Starfinder notes: do not look at the Starship size:mass ratio. Do not think about starship sizs being related to length instead of volume*. Androids are immune to vacuum, which depending on your group can be anywhere from a ribbon to overpowered. Do not be fooled by spell progression, lots of higher level PF spells are in the list.

Starfinder manages to simultaneously be my favourite version of d20 and my least favourite space game.

* The logical conclusion is that all spaceships in the setting are constructed to a fixed cross sectional area. Decide which end of the scale you want to be utterly ridiculous.

Telok
2022-02-05, 06:42 PM
And to repeat as well: solves none of the issues D&D has (and if you dislike hp/damage inflation it actually doubles down on that).

But if you want D&D in space it does that.


Also some other Starfinder notes:

Its probably better to drop thier whole spaceship section and either hand wave it or use your favorite space explore/fight boardgame or cardgame. Theres weirdness surrounding the unlimited nuclear missiles (but only 5 at a time) on entry level space craft. Installing door locks requires your spaceship have less shields/guns/engines etc. Some uses of spaceship sensors are worse than looking out the window (mostly for planet detection & observation). Don't use weapons that do damage/saves to the crew because npc ship crews don't have stats beyond BaB & skills. The Wall of Force spell has hp & you can cut it with a knife (not really too bad, hardness 30 & 300hp at level 13 but a standard cr12 monster is doing 3d12+20 with its melee attack, plus its transparent to lasers if I recall). Lamps have hardness 3 & 10 hp, low level pistols do 1d4 damage. Automatic weapons on full-auto is crap.

Seriously you could reskin the old AD&D spelljammer stuff with technobabble and end up with a more coherent & believable D&D in space than Starfinder. They may have fixed everything in the last 2 years... but its unlikely.

Psyren
2022-02-05, 07:21 PM
@OP - the nice thing about being the best seller is that there are plenty of resources and community to help you tweak any details you dislike to your preference. Much more than you'll get with the obscure/niche systems anyway. If, like most TTRPG players you aren't petrified by D&D's "issues," then SF gives a pretty solid foundation.

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-05, 07:42 PM
@OP - the nice thing about being the best seller is that there are plenty of resources and community to help you tweak any details you dislike to your preference. Much more than you'll get with the obscure/niche systems anyway. If, like most TTRPG players you aren't petrified by D&D's "issues," then SF gives a pretty solid foundation.

Then maybe we should have this thread give a shout out to Traveller? As the longest running science fiction RPG then for whatever issue you have with it somebody's probably worked out a fix.

Or GURPS, that also has a great community that can help you tweak anything! The GURPS fandom is actually pretty great for 'I have weird idea X, how do I pull it off'. I'm hoping the slimmed down GURPS rules in the Girl Genius book is a sign that SJG is considering a more approachable corebook.

I won't even bother detailing the flexibility of Fate and the advice and examples out there.

The point being, this isn't really a thing unique to Starfinder. People have just been listing more niche systems because they personally prefer them. Starfinder's biggest strength is that it brings the structure of D&D 3.5 with it, it's biggest weakness is exactly the same.

The following things might be legitimate deal breakers for people: the class and level system, hp+damage scaling*, the entire spaceships section of the core rules, and the gear treadmill. Potentially other things as well. But to other people they could be the reasons to play.

Me, I loathe both gear treadmills and the hp/damage race, as I made clear in the other thread.

* It limits the threat of lower level enemies, which is both good and bad.

Psyren
2022-02-06, 03:18 PM
I have no problem shouting out other systems. I can even do it without crapping on the ones I dislike. The point is to give the OP options they may not have considered.

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-06, 05:19 PM
I have no problem shouting out other systems. I can even do it without crapping on the ones I dislike. The point is to give the OP options they may not have considered.

I wouldn't say I was ****ting on it. I used negative framing, but that was to get a point across. Starfinder is D&D in space, and that's very important to get across.

My second post was mostly rejecting your implication that it being the best seller* gave it a unique position of having a community that can help tweak it. It does have that community but it's not a unique trait.

Are there good reasons to play Starfinder? Yes, the first being 'it's D&D in space'. It's going to play into the D&D gameplay structure and power fantasy in a way that something like Frontier Space or Mindjammer isn't. On the downside it's not going to do particularly well if you want to be space merchants in a more grounded universe (which is where Traveller excels). Stars Without Number shows there's a definite market for it outside of 'I only know about D&D and Pathfinder', so being D&D in space isn't bad in any way.

It also uses the D&D rules, but it's a legitimate debate as to whether that's better than using a simpler, easier to learn system.

It also has the inclusion of outright fantastical elements rather than just pseudoscientific ones. Built right into the setting assumptions, in contrast with something like GURPS Space. As Shadowrun proved that's a legitimate selling point.

* Which I'm quite doubtful of, I think Traveller might give it a run for it's money.

Archpaladin Zousha
2022-02-06, 09:27 PM
Another fun one? Hard Wired Island (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/354684/Hard-Wired-Island?affiliate_id=315505).
Oh, that's a good one too!

Mutazoia
2022-02-06, 09:35 PM
It would be easier to recommend a system if we knew what type/style of game the OP was thinking about running.

Are they looking for space wizards (Star Wars, Starfinder), or something a little closer to hard science (Traveler, Buck Rogers)?

It's easy to list systems and extoll their various virtues and flaws, but if the OP wants "Survival Horror in Space" then you recommend Chthonian Stars, not Teenagers from Outer Space.

dafrca
2022-02-06, 11:52 PM
For me I find it falls to:

Cepheus Engine (A Traveller Clone)
Justifiers ( Hard to find out of print but fun setting)
Centauri Knights (Setting for BESM RPG)
Morrow Project (Another old game)

Telok
2022-02-07, 01:45 AM
Morrow Project (Another old game)

Thats one I haven't heard in a while.

To be fair to Pazio & Starfinder, they got the math right. Their goal for combat balance is met, given the DM adheres religously to the encounter building system & wealth by level chart and the players play in line with the implicit character archtypes. Granted all the space stuff is pretty much junk, and there's not really anything other than combat to do, and there's the usual over/under power spells & trap options, but interpersonal combat works beautifully.

Max_Killjoy
2022-02-07, 09:29 AM
And I've continued to give my opinion as to why it's a terrible option.

I'm also not convinced that more content is better. There's an argument to be made for a tightly designed experience that fits into a single book'

The fact is, there are large issues with Starfinder that boil down to 'they didn't change much from D&D 3.5'. Which might not be an issue for some people, but it can cause massive issues when trying to run something in a vastly different genre that doesn't have the same assumptions. It doesn't do much well beyond reskinned D&D, which is an issue if you want Star Trek, Doctor Who, Neuromancer, or Foundation (just to pick four examples).

It's not science fiction, it's D&D in space.

"1d20, level, race, class, etc" struggles enough trying to do anything other than D&D fantasy, its faults and limitations become glaring when trying to do anything even further afield.

TheSnowHatHero
2022-02-07, 02:23 PM
Ah! Didn't notice the other thread. Sorry about that.

Curbludgeon
2022-02-09, 08:40 AM
A couple of newer games with less of a focus on the fantastic which I enjoy are The Expanse RPG (uses Green Ronin's AGE system) and Eclipse Phase. The latter is perhaps better for its setting than its character creation and task resolution system, which end up a little more involved than strictly necessary.

Then, of course, on the other end of the complexity spectrum there's Lasers & Feelings, not to mention all the subsequent hacks.

jdizzlean
2022-02-09, 11:12 AM
The Mod Life Crisis: Duplicate thread merged with this one. Sorry for any confusion :)

Max_Killjoy
2022-02-09, 12:37 PM
A couple of newer games with less of a focus on the fantastic which I enjoy are The Expanse RPG (uses Green Ronin's AGE system) and Eclipse Phase. The latter is perhaps better for its setting than its character creation and task resolution system, which end up a little more involved than strictly necessary.

Then, of course, on the other end of the complexity spectrum there's Lasers & Feelings, not to mention all the subsequent hacks.

I wouldn't consider Eclipse Phase to be "low on the fantastic".

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-09, 12:55 PM
I wouldn't consider Eclipse Phase to be "low on the fantastic".

An alterative might be 'an attempt to be scientifically grounded', although asyncs* still mess with that. It's not low on the grand and bizarre, but it does try to present nothing as outright unnatural.

* Psychics.

Curbludgeon
2022-02-09, 01:22 PM
Insofar as I didn't write that phrase the usage of quotation marks is inaccurate and a little condescending.

Anonymouswizard has the short of it. Eclipse Phase is a transhumanist kitchen-sink, but it refrains from including overt supernatural elements which are acknowledged as such in-setting.

Max_Killjoy
2022-02-09, 01:45 PM
To be clear, it pretends to have "less of a focus on the fantastic", but most of the kitchen it sinks is made up of science-skinned fantasy.

Curbludgeon
2022-02-09, 02:16 PM
That you persist in the condescension is both unnecessary and unfortunate.

If you wouldn't mind sharing, what are some elements of the Eclipse Phase setting, Max_Killjoy, which in your opinion are presented as being necessarily fantastic?

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-09, 02:31 PM
That you persist in the condescension is both unnecessary and unfortunate.

If you wouldn't mind sharing, what are some elements of the Eclipse Phase setting, Max_Killjoy, which in your opinion are presented as being necessarily fantastic?

In my view the closest it gets is the Exsurgent virus and everything related to it (including Asyncs). While the TITANs and their works are grand and bizarre I wouldn't call them supernatural.

But Max_Killjoy might have a different opinion.

Mechalich
2022-02-10, 12:58 AM
Eclipse Phase has a lot of sufficiently advanced technology that is indistinguishable from magic, and some of them are pretty dubious. Asyncs are certainly one, but so are the Pandora Gates, QE Communication, and a fair number of lesser things. The setting is also very cavalier about space travel speeds (which is a problem because of its ridiculously compressed timeline, especially with regard to the outer system), bandwidth issues, and the feedstocks necessary for post-scarcity via 3D printing (again, especially in the outer system where heavy elements are less easily acquired).

As a whole Eclipse Phase loses verisimilitude due to its kitchen sink nature. Many of the ideas it incorporates lose hardness simply because they've been tossed in such an overstuffed blender and little, if any, effort was made to consider what happens when you mix so much speculative material - and some of it like fork deployment and integration is extremely speculative - with little consideration for what results.

The problematic kitchen sink nature of Eclipse Phase also goes beyond physical technologies to impact social structures, and the results are rather dubious at points. The setting basically took every conceivable form of governance the authors had heard of and pretended that not only were they all equally viable, but that they were all active somewhere in the setting which is, frankly absurd. Yes, inevitably the technological progression present in the setting coupled with the post-apocalyptic transition to life in space (though the setting's demographics are all over the place too) would mean something other than early 21st century market capitalism is likely to hold sway what they actually presented is a huge mess that makes the setting extremely difficult to navigate since the ability of a character to actually buy anything may vanish if their location changes.

Max_Killjoy
2022-02-10, 10:41 AM
In my view the closest it gets is the Exsurgent virus and everything related to it (including Asyncs). While the TITANs and their works are grand and bizarre I wouldn't call them supernatural.

But Max_Killjoy might have a different opinion.


Eclipse Phase has a lot of sufficiently advanced technology that is indistinguishable from magic, and some of them are pretty dubious. Asyncs are certainly one, but so are the Pandora Gates, QE Communication, and a fair number of lesser things. The setting is also very cavalier about space travel speeds (which is a problem because of its ridiculously compressed timeline, especially with regard to the outer system), bandwidth issues, and the feedstocks necessary for post-scarcity via 3D printing (again, especially in the outer system where heavy elements are less easily acquired).

As a whole Eclipse Phase loses verisimilitude due to its kitchen sink nature. Many of the ideas it incorporates lose hardness simply because they've been tossed in such an overstuffed blender and little, if any, effort was made to consider what happens when you mix so much speculative material - and some of it like fork deployment and integration is extremely speculative - with little consideration for what results.

The problematic kitchen sink nature of Eclipse Phase also goes beyond physical technologies to impact social structures, and the results are rather dubious at points. The setting basically took every conceivable form of governance the authors had heard of and pretended that not only were they all equally viable, but that they were all active somewhere in the setting which is, frankly absurd. Yes, inevitably the technological progression present in the setting coupled with the post-apocalyptic transition to life in space (though the setting's demographics are all over the place too) would mean something other than early 21st century market capitalism is likely to hold sway what they actually presented is a huge mess that makes the setting extremely difficult to navigate since the ability of a character to actually buy anything may vanish if their location changes.

Plenty of good examples.

(Setting aside the fact that the creators' politics transparently show through the setting's backstory / "future history", that many of the polities are cartoon caricatures of the ideologies being "depicted", that the "singularity" and "post-scarcity" are dubious concepts at best, and that AI Titans and The Fall are trite at this point.)

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-10, 11:06 AM
Plenty of good examples.

(Setting aside the fact that the creators' politics transparently show through the setting's backstory / "future history", that many of the polities are cartoon caricatures of the ideologies being "depicted", that the "singularity" and "post-scarcity" are dubious concepts at best, and that AI Titans and The Fall are trite at this point.)

If you want the harder SF transhumanist elements without most of what you're talking about I'd recommend GURPS Transhuman Space. None of the alien stuff, no psychics, none of the known political problems, and IIRC post-scarcity. On the potential downside it is GURPS, but honestly that might make it easier to pick up than 1e Eclipse Phase.

Eldan
2022-02-10, 11:18 AM
I mean, if I wanted to run a posthuman RPG, I'd use the Quantum Thief as a setting.

Curbludgeon
2022-02-10, 12:10 PM
Setting aside the fact that the creators' politics transparently show through the setting's backstory / "future history", that many of the polities are cartoon caricatures of the ideologies being "depicted"It sounds as if perhaps this is a major issue you take with the setting. Why not, one wonders, simply lead with that?

I've given Modiphius' Dune a couple of reads, but to be honest 2d20 games fall rather flat with me. I am still curious to give Blue Planet:Recontact a once over upon release, but wouldn't say I'm optimistic. Has anyone here given Those Dark Places a look? I tend to find horror, when it works at all, stands a better chance under rules light games, and while what I gleaned from reviews seems to hang together decently enough I wondered how well the book supported the proposed tone.

Max_Killjoy
2022-02-10, 02:22 PM
It sounds as if perhaps this is a major issue you take with the setting. Why not, one wonders, simply lead with that?


Because it's icing on the cake, not the core issue.

Mechalich
2022-02-10, 07:37 PM
The core issue with Eclipse Phase is that it's monstrously overstuffed. The 1e core book has a list of sources of inspiration in it and if you actually read/watch those sources (and for the most part I have, including some that I admittedly looked up because they were on that list) it becomes apparent that the authors took every single significant concept introduced in all of those sources put together and crammed them all into the setting. This creates a game that, in trying to be about everything, ended up being about nothing.

Eclipse Phase does have a use as a source of inspiration. It's a great system to comb through and identify concepts you want for a speculative science fiction game, especially since it's free. Unfortunately, because of the integrated setting, the minute you start 'turning off' various concepts to make the game more manageable it largely falls apart and anyway the mechanical system isn't actually good enough to make doing that worthwhile anyway.

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-12, 07:36 AM
Hey, at least Eclipse Phase uses SI units. Running science fiction in GURPS is even more of a struggle because of the need to convert from outdated units.

I stand by the idea that the metre should be the base unit of length for games, with the yard being used in pre-metric settings*. Also on that note, character sheets that actually fit on A4 paper please, none of this silly nonstandard size stuff.

* Being roughly equal is useful for quick and dirty conversion, for weight you can double kilos to get rough pounds.

Eldan
2022-02-12, 08:59 AM
Hey, at least Eclipse Phase uses SI units. Running science fiction in GURPS is even more of a struggle because of the need to convert from outdated units.

I stand by the idea that the metre should be the base unit of length for games, with the yard being used in pre-metric settings*. Also on that note, character sheets that actually fit on A4 paper please, none of this silly nonstandard size stuff.

* Being roughly equal is useful for quick and dirty conversion, for weight you can double kilos to get rough pounds.

I assume you haven't had to deal with the German translation of D&D 3 and 3.5, then. Oh the horror of the "1.5 meter step".

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-12, 09:04 AM
I assume you haven't had to deal with the German translation of D&D 3 and 3.5, then. Oh the horror of the "1.5 meter step".

No, but I'm sure my friends in Germany can get me a copy.

And it still sounds better than the English version. For all GURPS's faults at least it used the yard and not the Foot.

(Fantasy wise I'm mostly a TFT convert anyway, although I'm still picking up any system that catches my eye.)

Curbludgeon
2022-02-12, 10:45 AM
I would argue prioritizing verisimilitude is just shy of mutually exclusive with the nature of kitchen sinks. They, almost definitionally, are full to the point of overflowing. While the degree to which technobabble can be considered to afford a sufficient veneer to systemic speculation is necessarily subjective, that a setting adopts the pretense of such is of note, even when it's not internally consistent.
Because it's icing on the cake, not the core issue. "Hmm."

I just read a couple of reviews of Stalker, the Finnish 2012 game based on Roadside Picnic, and am curious if anyone has checked it out. While I'm unsure about the rules, it seems like it could be fun to juxtapose the setting against the Tales from the Loop RPG, in a night vs day aesthetic.

DivineOnTheMind
2022-02-13, 10:47 PM
I wasn't planning on commenting on this thread, but I see three pages with literally no mention of Diaspora (it has an SRD that you can Google, but that I can't link), which is by far my number 1.

It's one of the early Fate games, with the strengths and weaknesses that go with that, but what it does an especially good job of is structuring star-system-building as a fun collaborative group minigame, as well as structuring an enjoyable backstory-building game. It's robust enough to have pretty flexible story-driven planet-hopping adventures, and does a pretty good job of giving games to play at different scales of conflict.

If it has weaknesses, the first is that it presents itself as hard-scifi, which tends to lack a little bit in evocative action-driven story prompts. Another is that its premise pushes toward vehicle-driven adventures; vehicle-based conflicts can be good in stories and movies, but get a little dry at the game table, when only one player holds the gun; Diaspora does an above-average job of divvying up spaceships' roles, but it's still pretty lopsided with regard to who's having fun. It also gets a little crunchier in social skills than I'd prefer, but "Social combat" rules are relatively easy to glaze over through roleplay (and revisiting the rulebook, I'm also seeing "Platoon Combat rules, which I've literally never used).

Good game. Technically free through its SRD (although that formatting looks tough). Highly recommend.

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-14, 04:16 AM
The issue with Disapora is that it's out of print, which can be an issue because not everybody likes to run from an SRD (as I made clear earlier). Being out of print makes a hard copy hard to find and likely expensive, although it is available in pdf.

Fate in general isn't a bad shout, and Core has a pretty good Space Toolkit. There's also the first party Tachyon Squadron to supply space fighter action, or the third party Mindjammer for adding transhumanist elements.

Dawgmoah
2022-02-21, 04:11 PM
I've only had the opportunity to play online for the past seven years. With that in mind I have found that trying to get folks to play in the more complex/complicated games is a chore and oftimes no players apply for it.

My go to rule set for Sci Fi is Stars Without Numbers. It is easy to learn, free (the abbreviated book as one with more resources is available for a fee), and having a short rule set like most OSR games. (I did not see anyone saying OSR is off limits for this discussion?)
In the same family is Other Dust, which blends in well with Stars Without Numbers. Then Worlds Without Number is alright though I have data-mined the charts out of it for use in other games.

Star Frontiers was my favorite for years though out of print as far as I know. (Used to play the starship combat game as well).

On the later side is The Expanse, based on a tv show and book series. I was able to play in four games in that system before the pandemic hit and shut it down.

Reading the comments on this thread make me want to go get a copy of Eclipse Phase.

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-21, 05:02 PM
On the later side is The Expanse, based on a tv show and book series. I was able to play in four games in that system before the pandemic hit and shut it down.

Isn't that based off the AGE games? Best critical hit system I've seen in a game, I like that Stunts are both frequent and often do more than just 'more damage'.

Did they get rid of the HP bloat that plagued Fantasy AGE?


Reading the comments on this thread make me want to go get a copy of Eclipse Phase.

Be warned, it's overcomplex on both setting and system. 1e basically needed a player's guide mainly to make character creation feasible, I've not seen 2e but I hear it's simplified but with a few of the issues kept (such as starting with anything beyond a basic morph being a sucker's game).

ETA: want to make an Eclipse character certain to be practically unplayable? Take the Lost background, upgrade to Psi 2, and then realise that there's nothing saying that you can't take the same trait several times and take five mental disorders for the CP. Now buy whatever synthmorph you want.

Congrats, you have a grand total of EIGHT significant mental disorders and no access to your Psi.

LibraryOgre
2022-02-21, 05:52 PM
On the later side is The Expanse, based on a tv show and book series. I was able to play in four games in that system before the pandemic hit and shut it down.

So, a game based on the first season? :smallwink:

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-21, 06:12 PM
So, a game based on the first season? :smallwink:

From what I remember from the time I hung around the GR forums (before they vanished), it's actually based primarily on the books to the point they they didn't have a licence for the show. So based on the first 6-8 books I believe (also wow, just remembered I've not read 2+)/

VampiricLongbow
2022-02-21, 06:15 PM
My favorite Sci-Fi TTRPs are:

- Star Wars Saga Edition - remove the Jedi and you have an amazing generic Sci-Fi system!

- Edge of the Empire (and its sister systems) - the narrative dice can really open a lot of unique events and stories.

- Dark Heresy 2nd Edition - the best version of the old 40k RPG systems

- Stars Without Number - I love generating sectors and the system is easy to learn

Dawgmoah
2022-02-22, 12:42 AM
Yes, it is based on the AGE system though I know nothing about that outside of the Expanse.

Over complex? Worse than Pathfinder or D&D 3.5?


Isn't that based off the AGE games? Best critical hit system I've seen in a game, I like that Stunts are both frequent and often do more than just 'more damage'.

Did they get rid of the HP bloat that plagued Fantasy AGE?



Be warned, it's overcomplex on both setting and system. 1e basically needed a player's guide mainly to make character creation feasible, I've not seen 2e but I hear it's simplified but with a few of the issues kept (such as starting with anything beyond a basic morph being a sucker's game).

ETA: want to make an Eclipse character certain to be practically unplayable? Take the Lost background, upgrade to Psi 2, and then realise that there's nothing saying that you can't take the same trait several times and take five mental disorders for the CP. Now buy whatever synthmorph you want.

Congrats, you have a grand total of EIGHT significant mental disorders and no access to your Psi.

Dawgmoah
2022-02-22, 12:43 AM
So, a game based on the first season? :smallwink:

I've never read the books, and think I saw one of the tv shows. I think I was on the road a lot at the time and never went back to watch any more.

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-22, 01:28 AM
Yes, it is based on the AGE system though I know nothing about that outside of the Expanse.

I mean, apart from the Stunts system and Modern AGE (and I believe The Expanse) being levelled but classless it's nothing special.


Over complex? Worse than Pathfinder or D&D 3.5?

Character creation requires spending 1000CP on Aptitudes (think stats), Moxie (Fate Points), Skills, positive and negative Traits, Credits with which to buy by Gear and Blueprints, Rep to gain favours, and Morphs to run around in (which come with Aptitude bonuses and extra Traits). What's important? It depends, but even if you've worked that out it's a lot of point counting. Cred is useless in the outer system, Rep is of limited use in the inner system, and you can move about at lightspeed so what's important can change from adventure to adventure...

That's not even getting into the rules! You want to know how difficult it is getting used to your new body? There's a system for that. Although there's a relatively elegant system for hacking

LibraryOgre
2022-02-22, 01:41 PM
On the later side is The Expanse, based on a tv show and book series. I was able to play in four games in that system before the pandemic hit and shut it down.



So, a game based on the first season? :smallwink:


From what I remember from the time I hung around the GR forums (before they vanished), it's actually based primarily on the books to the point they they didn't have a licence for the show. So based on the first 6-8 books I believe (also wow, just remembered I've not read 2+)/


I've never read the books, and think I saw one of the tv shows. I think I was on the road a lot at the time and never went back to watch any more.

The first season of the TV show centers around an alien infection, and climaxes in a space station caught in its grip.

Lord Torath
2022-02-22, 02:52 PM
There's now a Savage Worlds Robotech (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/273522/Robotech-A-Macross-Saga-RPG-SWAdE-Revised?affiliate_id=315505), and Lancer. (https://massif-press.itch.io/)

If you've got the old Robotech books, or even the 2000s era stuff, the Palladium system isn't BAD. But it isn't good. It's clunky, and tends to have a damage sponge quality unless you can spend a bunch of missiles. Skills are binary pass/fail, and they either provide you a ton of modifiers or none at all.I found another Robotech book on DTRPG. There's the one from Battlefield Press (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/273522/Robotech-A-Macross-Saga-RPG-SWAdE-Revised?affiliate_id=315505) and another one from Strange Machine Games (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/289059/Robotech-The-Macross-Saga-Roleplaying-Game). What's the difference between these?

Also are you aware of anyone who's converted Robotech to the Lancer system?

LibraryOgre
2022-02-22, 03:38 PM
I found another Robotech book on DTRPG. There's the one from Battlefield Press (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/273522/Robotech-A-Macross-Saga-RPG-SWAdE-Revised?affiliate_id=315505) and another one from Strange Machine Games (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/289059/Robotech-The-Macross-Saga-Roleplaying-Game). What's the difference between these?

Also are you aware of anyone who's converted Robotech to the Lancer system?

To my knowledge, Battlefield has the license, Strange Machine does not, but I have no idea if there's anything else. SMG doesn't seem to use SW, so there's going to be some differences, to be sure.

lightningcat
2022-02-22, 03:54 PM
I found another Robotech book on DTRPG. There's the one from Battlefield Press (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/273522/Robotech-A-Macross-Saga-RPG-SWAdE-Revised?affiliate_id=315505) and another one from Strange Machine Games (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/289059/Robotech-The-Macross-Saga-Roleplaying-Game). What's the difference between these?

Also are you aware of anyone who's converted Robotech to the Lancer system?

The first is a Savage Worlds system, the second is its own system. But beyond that, no idea, I haven't read either.

Tanarii
2022-02-23, 12:31 AM
The biggest problem with Palladium Robotech is melee isn't worth a damn, and many of the secondary weapons aren't very good either even against Zentradi. And if you're instead doing the post invasion scenarios you could easily fight other destroids. And southern cross / invid ratcheted up alien armor, so same issue even against aliens. It's missiles, an Excalibur or Raidar X main gun, or spend hours slugging it out. Even the VF main gun is pretty terrible.

I've never played the Macross II and supplemental Southern Cross version, and I don't recall from my read through if it had the same issue. The classes were WAY better for the second SC book though, I remember that.

Max_Killjoy
2022-02-23, 08:35 AM
The biggest problem with Palladium Robotech is melee isn't worth a damn, and many of the secondary weapons aren't very good either even against Zentradi. And if you're instead doing the post invasion scenarios you could easily fight other destroids. And southern cross / invid ratcheted up alien armor, so same issue even against aliens. It's missiles, an Excalibur or Raidar X main gun, or spend hours slugging it out. Even the VF main gun is pretty terrible.

I've never played the Macross II and supplemental Southern Cross version, and I don't recall from my read through if it had the same issue. The classes were WAY better for the second SC book though, I remember that.

IIRC, the MAC-II "Monster" at least had effective weapons, at the price of being HUGE.

Lord Torath
2022-02-23, 11:06 AM
IIRC, the MAC-II "Monster" at least had effective weapons, at the price of being HUGE.And soooo sloooooow.

Tanarii
2022-02-23, 11:12 AM
IIRC, the MAC-II "Monster" at least had effective weapons, at the price of being HUGE.

And soooo sloooooow.
And if I recall correctly, explicitly not being recommended for PC party in the character creation section.
It did make awesome fire support for a destroid team ranging out on close patrol from a base with one or two installed though :smallamused:

LibraryOgre
2022-02-23, 08:51 PM
The biggest problem with Palladium Robotech is melee isn't worth a damn, and many of the secondary weapons aren't very good either even against Zentradi. And if you're instead doing the post invasion scenarios you could easily fight other destroids. And southern cross / invid ratcheted up alien armor, so same issue even against aliens. It's missiles, an Excalibur or Raidar X main gun, or spend hours slugging it out. Even the VF main gun is pretty terrible.

I've never played the Macross II and supplemental Southern Cross version, and I don't recall from my read through if it had the same issue. The classes were WAY better for the second SC book though, I remember that.

I have played in almost every Palladium game (barring the original Mechanoids stuff and Recon).

Combat is always a slog, with sacks of hit points poking sacks of Hit Points with toothpicks.

Or shooting 4+ missiles, which could not be dodged, and destroying the target instantly.

Mutazoia
2022-02-24, 11:56 AM
I have played in almost every Palladium game (barring the original Mechanoids stuff and Recon).

Combat is always a slog, with sacks of hit points poking sacks of Hit Points with toothpicks.

Or shooting 4+ missiles, which could not be dodged, and destroying the target instantly.

If you're not doing MDC you're not doing damage at all.

Telok
2022-02-24, 01:15 PM
Or shooting 4+ missiles, which could not be dodged, and destroying the target instantly.

Heh, I remember that game.

Invid pops you for piddly, you pop invid for pidfly+1, repeat 5 times. Then there's a crit and 1/2 your mdc is gone, oh crap. Ok, average missile damage is... so about 15 should do, see what can I group fire... rounds up to 18 missiles ok, roll... and a hit. Welp, that fight's over and I need reloads now.

Lord Torath
2022-02-24, 01:31 PM
Heh, I remember that game.

Invid pops you for piddly, you pop invid for pidfly+1, repeat 5 times. Then there's a crit and 1/2 your mdc is gone, oh crap. Ok, average missile damage is... so about 15 should do, see what can I group fire... rounds up to 18 missiles ok, roll... and a hit. Welp, that fight's over and I need reloads now."Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!"

At least when fighting Invid, anyway. There were no downsides to called shots (if you rolled under the number required to hit your called target, but still rolled over the base number to strike the target, you still hit the target, just not in your called location).

Full-melee burst from the VF-1's GU-11 gun pod did 1d6x10 MD. Zentradi battlepods had 50 MDC base, so it took at least two rounds of fire to take one down. Most of the Invid mecha had eyes with 10-20 MDC, so aiming for those was a safe bet..

LibraryOgre
2022-02-24, 01:35 PM
If you're not doing MDC you're not doing damage at all.

Applies even in SDC games. About the only one it doesn't apply in is PF1e, where you had no SDC and, while full PE gives you a sack of HP, bonuses are usually low enough that your AR is still useful, and damages run a bit higher than D&D.

Lord Torath
2022-02-24, 01:40 PM
If you're not doing MDC you're not doing damage at all.Was that true in the TMNT books as well?

LibraryOgre
2022-02-24, 02:34 PM
Was that true in the TMNT books as well?

While it is mentioned, they don't use MDC in modern settings.

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-24, 07:51 PM
While it is mentioned, they don't use MDC in modern settings.

While I've never played a Palladium game (and if any are in print I've already got a long to-read list), but by my understanding MDC was something like two orders of magnitude above SDC/HP?

I can see edge case uses for it in a modern game even without magic. Nothing that'll really come up a lot though, this would be giving stats to things like buildings and possibly very high end tanks or the like.

Telok
2022-02-24, 08:03 PM
While I've never played a Palladium game (and if any are in print I've already got a long to-read list), but by my understanding MDC was something like two orders of magnitude above SDC/HP?

I can see edge case uses for it in a modern game even without magic. Nothing that'll really come up a lot though, this would be giving stats to things like buildings and possibly very high end tanks or the like.

100 SDC to 1 MDC. The canonical example is baseball bats & assault rifles against a main battle tank, it just bounces off.

It is one of very few systems however to mention & provide guidance for overpenetration. The given example being shooting a wooden door, its full of holes now but still in one piece & blocking. I think it was something like 2% of the damage went to the door and you could subtract that from anything the bullets hit further down the line. I always though that would be a good one to implement on MDC weapons vs SDC stuff, with exceptions for explosions & giant crushing things, etc.

LibraryOgre
2022-02-25, 06:06 PM
While I've never played a Palladium game (and if any are in print I've already got a long to-read list), but by my understanding MDC was something like two orders of magnitude above SDC/HP?

I can see edge case uses for it in a modern game even without magic. Nothing that'll really come up a lot though, this would be giving stats to things like buildings and possibly very high end tanks or the like.

Basically, MDC was a very chunky scaling damage system. It was originally designed for Robotech, where 50' tall robots and the 50' tall aliens they were made to fight were MDC, while humans and most human vehicles were SDC. If something was MDC, it was invulnerable to all SDC weapons.

However, as the Palladium System accumulated, MDC got applied to a lot of other things, and got really, really high. I think a VF-1 had, maybe, 300 MDC. F-14 that turned into a giant robot. By the early 90s in Rifts, you would wind up with that in a fairly normal-sized person (Tattooed Warriors from Atlantis). It got kinda out of hand.

Wizard_Lizard
2022-03-01, 03:50 PM
Hands down Lancer, amazing lore, really neat mechanics!

Mutazoia
2022-03-01, 11:51 PM
Basically, MDC was a very chunky scaling damage system. It was originally designed for Robotech, where 50' tall robots and the 50' tall aliens they were made to fight were MDC, while humans and most human vehicles were SDC. If something was MDC, it was invulnerable to all SDC weapons.

However, as the Palladium System accumulated, MDC got applied to a lot of other things, and got really, really high. I think a VF-1 had, maybe, 300 MDC. F-14 that turned into a giant robot. By the early 90s in Rifts, you would wind up with that in a fairly normal-sized person (Tattooed Warriors from Atlantis). It got kinda out of hand.

Eventually even doing MDC turned into little more than a giant slap-fight.

ImproperJustice
2022-03-10, 12:01 AM
Stars Without Number!!!

Cannot praise this enough. Even if you don’t choose it, the tools it has can be used in any sci fi game for fast world building.

Savage World Sci-Fi companion is okayish and gives a similar experience, but SWN has more flavor.

If your gonna do Rifts, use the SW version. It’s much better.

Mekton is pretty good for mecha combat. But it has its own problems.

Then there is always Big Eyes Small Mouth and it’s various add ons, if you want some anime flair. It’s also broken but makes for a good beer and pretzels game.

But if you do a campaign or limited Sandbox you can’t go wrong with SWN.

Thane of Fife
2022-03-11, 06:00 PM
Basically, MDC was a very chunky scaling damage system. It was originally designed for Robotech, where 50' tall robots and the 50' tall aliens they were made to fight were MDC, while humans and most human vehicles were SDC. If something was MDC, it was invulnerable to all SDC weapons.

...

By the early 90s in Rifts, you would wind up with that in a fairly normal-sized person (Tattooed Warriors from Atlantis). It got kinda out of hand.

I never played much Rifts, but I kind of love the basic aesthetic created by that over-application of MDC. In the core book, I think there's an example of a gang in a dune buggy attacking a Deadboy, and the bullets from their machine gun are just bouncing off his armor until he pulls out his laser pistol and blows their buggy in half with one shot.

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-11, 07:39 PM
But if you do a campaign or limited Sandbox you can’t go wrong with SWN.

It's important to note that SWN is built to be mostly compatible with D&D, and as I remember specifically TSR era D&D. It means that plonking in D&D modules is generally a matter of refluffing, but it also means that you inherit issues like squishy 1st level characters.

Then there's the entire classes versus classless debate, which is a matter of personal preference. But SWN uses classes and IIRC it's a case of 'pick at first level'.

It's also not going to be amazing outside of Space Opera because that's where it's GM tools are focused.

Those tools are not unique anyway, most space games will have some form of them. They range from incredibly detailed (GURPS Space*) to much lighter (Fate Space Toolkit), SWN just seems to have found s level lots of people like. Personally I'm unlikely to use them since I already have the Fate Space Toolkit, Traveller, and Frontier Space (and GURPS Space for those moments when accurate orbital mechanics suddenly matter).

* For when your FTL drive breaks down and you have to calculate time dilation.

LibraryOgre
2022-03-12, 12:18 PM
I never played much Rifts, but I kind of love the basic aesthetic created by that over-application of MDC. In the core book, I think there's an example of a gang in a dune buggy attacking a Deadboy, and the bullets from their machine gun are just bouncing off his armor until he pulls out his laser pistol and blows their buggy in half with one shot.

Don't remember that specifically, but it's pretty accurate for the 1990 RMB.

In later years, the dune buggy was ALSO probably MDC, and the machine gun would easily be doing MD damage, as well... there was simply too many MDC animals to make SDC weapons a feasible choice.