What spells should a high level druid be casting?

[Rfkannen]

My party has a druid who joined at level 10, and has mentioned a couple times that they aren't sure what spells to be casting as they didn't slowly get introduced to them. So now that we are level 17 they are still figuring out what is worth casting. This is made harder because they are the only person in the party running two characters (they are also running a cleric)

They have asked me for advice, but druid is the spellcaster I am least familiar with. Any tips you would give?
The character is a kenku moon druid.

[Psyren]

Spam Conjure Ani-

This is the kind of question handbooks are very good for answering, or at least for narrowing a list down to make it more manageable. Here is a solid one. (https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/druid/spells/)

In addition, Youtube has numerous optimization guides. For example, Treantmonk recently completed a series where he analyzed every single druid spell. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETp6V4jkpik&list=PLhBKTC8Tur5D6konOh7fQJgELTjxJHaaw)

[J-H]

It depends on what's going on. My general picks would be:
9th
Foresight - on a moon druid, you now have advantage on all attack rolls, all attacks on you have disadvantage, and at level 18 you can cast while in wildshape form. Massive melee boost. Alternatively, give it to the barbarian or fighter. Lasts all day, no concentration

8th
These are your "I'm fighting an army" spells. Tsunami, Incendiary Cloud, Control Weather.
You can also upcast a Summon X spell for a good pet/tank.

7th
Firestorm for AOE blasting
Upcast Call Lightning or Moonbeam or Sunbeam for every-turn elemental damage
Reverse Gravity for crowd control

6th
Sunbeam for a line blast.
Transport Via Plants for teleportation anywhere in the world that you've been before. Pair with Scrying to see targets for this without visiting an area in person.

5th
Contagion is nice. It takes a while to kick in, but unless the target is immune, it's automatically poisoned for a minimum of 3 rounds barring healing magic.

4th
Fire Shield? Blight? Summon elemental?

Lower
Plant growth, Revivify, Healing stuff, Speak with plants?, Heat Metal. Absorb Elements is a decent reaction spell.

[stoutstien]

What subclass are both of the PCs they are running? While there is some strong options regardless of this the circle the druid is in tends to influence where their concentration is focused.

[KorvinStarmast]

9th
Foresight - On you or a party member. It's great.
Shapechange - incredible versatility to get into shapes (like adult dragons) that are stronger than your usual animal forms.
8th
Earthquake can now and again wreck an encounter.
Feeblemind can take out an enemy spell caster. (If it lands)
Sunburst
7th
Reverse Gravity
Plane Shift (campaign dependent)
6th
Sunbeam
Conjure Fey (annis hag is a nice ally)
Heroe's Feast (worth the investment)
Transport Via Plants

Note on Conjure Animals: if you upcast it at 5th level, you get 4 Giant Eagles to fly your party for an hour wherever they need to go. (Up cast to 7 you get 8 of them-bring a friend or two).

Water Breathing, ritual. Great utility spell.

[Amnestic]

My favourites:
9th: Foresight, Shapechange.
8th: Feeblemind, Sunburst, Summon X upcasted
7th: Draconic Transformation (6d8 force breath weapon on a BA, dex save for half, every round for 1 minute isn't bad, plus blindsight 30' and 60' fly speed), Whirlwind
6th: Sunbeam, Heal, Heroes Feast, Wind Walk (aka Druid Teleport)
5th: Summon Draconic Spirit, Reincarnate :smallcool:, Wall of Stone

[Rfkannen]

More context.

I forgot we leveled up at the end of last session

So now we have
Lv 18 kenku moon druid
Lv 15 deep gnome life cleric (druid's second character)
Lv 18 earth genasi Gloom stalker ranger focused on archery (my character)
Dragonborn Lv 3 hexblade warlock lv 15 Whisper bard who mostly attacks with a greatsword
Lv 18 deep gnome battlemaster fighter with a rapier and shield

[Urbanmech]

Transmute Rock is absolutely amazing and hasn’t been mentioned yet. Like Plant Growth it’s also doesn’t require concentration. Make a big muddy morass to slow up enemies. In a dungeon you can also drop the roof on the enemies.

A lot of what Druids get at upper levels are battlefield control spells. Big areas of “don’t go here” or “ you are now stuck here.” Also they get a lot of interesting utility like Animal Shapes, Transport Via Plants, and Windwalk.

[Melphizard]

Well my thoughts may be mentioned but here's my overall advice for 6th level and higher spells:

6th level:
Heroes' Feast - If you know you're about to go fight something this spell is one of the primary day buffs that you gotta have. Also if you're still poor at 17th level you're either a wizard, a monk, or have bought an entire forest to make your own personal enclave.
Heal - 70 hp as an action. It's great. Not much else to add.
Transport via Plants - Touch a tree, gain a waypoint.

7th:
Regenerate - If you have time to prepare this spell before entering a dungeon you can gain an effective auto-heal whenever you go down to some damage. As someone who DM'd for a cleric who was tanky they would use this spell and never die. It even specifies it heals you at the start of your turn! Familiars with health potions move aside.
Reverse Gravity - If you know a Wizard with Prismatic Wall I speak from the experience of being hit by this combo, it's absolutely brutal! For clarity the wizard casts prismatic wall above the enemies and you then reverse gravity the enemies, thus sending them through all layers of the Prismatic wall with no real way of saving unless they use a free hand to grab something. For those fools who fail and get sent through all the layers, they then will have to endure you dropping concentration and sending them down through it all again.
Firestorm - It's fair damage with pretty good maneuverability in who you hit.

8th:
Not a lot of amazing things here but here are two of the best options you got
Control weather - This spell is good for helping the party members who have sunlight sensitivity or buffing the Tempest cleric by creating a storm for them to use.
(Optional use) RFM Spoilers - Go to Icewindale and anger Auril by constantly changing her eternal winter to a nice sunny day. Proceed to 1v1 her and probably win (damn her stats are bad)
Feeblemind - This spell is terrifying with how long its effect lasts so I present you the two best ways to use it
1. Binding things - Cast Feeblemind on a Celestial, an elemental, a fey, or a fiend. If you have succeded, now cast planar binding. Congrats you have now acquired a minion who must do what you say and has little-to-no chance of escaping you.
2. Command Undead - If your party has a necromancer you can feeblemind a powerful undead and your necromancer can then take control of it.

9th:
Shapechange - Congrats you have now unlocked Wildshape 2.0. Please proceed to D&D Beyond and filter your search by Challenge Rating ≥17. Fun Fact: You still get the creature's innate spells since technically they're not class levels or a spellcasting feature. 10/10 would become a Lesser Star Spawn Emissary and horrify both my party and enemy again.
Foresight - You have advantage now. You also get a free cloak of displacement for the troubles of casting this spell. It's great defensively and out of combat but I wouldn't place this above Shapechange because becoming an archfiend is a lot of fun. Best used on another party member like a fighter who attacks 12 times a turn. Bonus points if they're a Samurai.

[Pildion]

My party has a druid who joined at level 10, and has mentioned a couple times that they aren't sure what spells to be casting as they didn't slowly get introduced to them. So now that we are level 17 they are still figuring out what is worth casting. This is made harder because they are the only person in the party running two characters (they are also running a cleric)

They have asked me for advice, but druid is the spellcaster I am least familiar with. Any tips you would give?
The character is a kenku moon druid.

well, on a Moon Druid,

9th: Foresight
7th and 8th: Reverse Gravity <- one of the best control spells period.
6th: Heal

They can also Conjure Animals for every fight of the day at this point. Conjure Animals is basically like Cleric Spirit Guardians. Its the Druid go to spell.
Don't underestimate Plant Growth though, remember its not just difficult terrain, its double it at 4' of movement per 1'

[KorvinStarmast]

They can also Conjure Animals for every fight of the day at this point. Conjure Animals is basically like Cleric Spirit Guardians. Its the Druid go to spell.
Don't underestimate Plant Growth though, remember its not just difficult terrain, its double it at 4' of movement per 1' One of the things that I noticed about Conjure Animals in Tier 3 play, and above, is that the non magical attacks were often resisted. But a Shepherd druid overcomes that. :smallsmile:

[nickl_2000]

I've seen several mentions of reverse gravity on here. How have you had it play out in battle? I've read it a numbers of times and been unsure how well it would work

[KorvinStarmast]

I've seen several mentions of reverse gravity on here. How have you had it play out in battle? I've read it a numbers of times and been unsure how well it would work The enemy falls up, and then they fall down when concentration ends. There is a potential to inflict up to 20d6 falling damage on each one of them. It also breaks up a crowd very nicely. (Not great against flying enemies, though).

[sambojin]

I'll list a few, possibly already mentioned:

Lvl1: Longstrider. Whatever, it's a bonus, and it doesn't take concentration.
Faerie Fire: yes, there's high Dex things, but not as many as high strength at this level. And advantage is advantage, especially for all forms of attack.
Entangle: for when Dex isnt a good stat to hit. Restrain is still restrain.
Good Berry: you might have an army of things, that you need to feed. So feed 10 of them.
Jump: no, I'm not joking. It doesn't take concentration.

Lvl2: Enhance Ability: just so useful. Use a higher slot if you'd like, even if it's just so a couple of you get advantage on initiative rolls.
Hold Person: if they're a humanoid, autocrits are autocrits. Splat 'em.
PwT: stealth +10 never gets old.
Summon Beast: look, it's extra attack, with either pack tactics or flying/flyby, that can ride around on you. You don't have a lot of pure wildshape combat+ options that are so cheap slot-wise. Make it a monkey whatever, so it has hands. Long day? Easy encounter? Blow a lvl2 spell slot. It's +1 attack, without magical attacks. Spell DC+advantage from pack tactics to-hit is still pretty good.

Lvl3: Conjure Animals: There is never any reason to not have it.
Plant Growth: ultra slow. But only on the ground.
Sleet Storm: ultra obscured/ prone / anti-concentration and difficult terrain. Truesight is still obscured. Air targetable.
Summon Fey: mostly for laughs. They've got hands and are smart. Give them an awesome kit of cast-off paraphernalia. Like having a free lvl4/5 monk servant, with unlimited Ki. They can ride around on you while in wildshape. Master-blaster it up! Sort-of gives wildshape a pair of hands. Mirthful can be brutal against non-charm-immune foes (they can't attack you or the fey, and you've already taken your turn, and the fey has already hopefully hit them). A weird form of 2v1 "dueling" available for any druid.
Tidal Wave: you will have a concentration spell up. This is an instant. It does damage and prones and is ultra targetable for big/ small AoE, plus is air targetable. Burn those slots for DPR glory!

Lvl4: Conjure Woodland Beings. You're lvl17+. Yes, you have spell batteries. Lots of.
Freedom of Movement: it's not great, but it doesn't require concentration.
Ice Storm: it's another instant, to add DPR AoE by blowing slots quickly.
Polymorph: it is now a +HP/size/movement spell. Drop concentration the moment the party member who was about to die's turn comes up. Or just after they've moved at polymorphed size/ rate, so they can actually do lvl17+ stuff afterward.
Scrying: can be generically useful for info.

Lvl5: Summon Draconic Spirit: This goes for lvl6 spell slots as well. Want to give you or a party member flight and +3/+4 attacks? Summon a perfectly tame dragon to ride around on. Plus you get a resistance, and can player-knowledge in the "correct" attack type. Honestly, it's a pretty simple summon, but it's incredibly fun. Good AC, reasonable attacks, 10' reach, up-to 4 hours a day of lvl5/6 slots by lvl18.
Wall of Stone: make your own terrain layout alterations. Surprisingly high HP per panel.

Lvl6: as mentioned by all.
Lvl7: Same. If you're in caster form, you can bonus action cast Draconic Transformation and 60' force breath weapon, action wildshape into a CR4-6 form, and move by a 60' flight speed as a combat starter if you want at lvl 13-18+. It's a prep-turn, but not a bad one, as wildshape gimmicks go. Gets around the material component thing of beast spells.

Lvl8: Animal Shapes. It doesn't seem like CR4 beasts have anything to do with this lvl of play, but it's essentially infinite HP, which might come up, and whatever movement/ vision style you need. 90HP a turn as Giant Coral Snake isn't great, but figuring out what to do with a lvl8 druid spell slot is (I don't know, dig a dwarf fortress as badgers or something).
Summon Draconic Spirit is still an option (it's fun making "summon flying 10' reach monk" jokes. Feel free to do it with Summon Fey/ Beast as well). A spellcasting, charge goring/ trampling Triceratops/ Mammoth, with a Dragon perched on its back isn't all that bad as combat blenders go. Big, but pretty damn scary as a "yes, my wildshape still scales in combat" thing.

But lots of upcasted spells are good at this level. Those 1/10/60min durations are actually pretty nice on even simple lvl2-8 damage or summon spells now for slot usage.

[follacchioso]

A great druid spell that is often overlooked is Animal Shapes.

Transform a small army of low level NPCs into a swarm of giant eagles, and lead them behind the enemy lines. Transform them in Allosaurus to charge, then reshape them in Giant Scorpions to continue the melee. You can change the shape every turn, for 24 hours, and they will be full HP every time.

This will teach people not to mess up with druids.

[sithlordnergal]

Couple of good spells:

--6th level--

Heal

Flesh to Stone

Sunbeam

If you're a moon druid, the investiture spells, except stone, can be handy



--7th level spells--

Draconic Transformation (great for Moon Druids)

Reverse Gravity

Plane Shift

Whirlwind


---8th level spells---

Antipathy/Sympathy

Earthquake

Feeblemind

Sunburst


---9th level spells---

Foresight

Shapechange


Now, a note about things like Animal Shapes. It is handy, but it has a fatal flaw. Near as I can tell, its basically a Mass Polymorph spell, and the creatures do not deal magical damage. That could make no difference or all of the difference.

[nickl_2000]

The enemy falls up, and then they fall down when concentration ends. There is a potential to inflict up to 20d6 falling damage on each one of them. It also breaks up a crowd very nicely. (Not great against flying enemies, though).

Taking this to a new post to avoid hijacking more than I already have.

[Chronos]

I'm not sure about Heroes' Feast. Even if you're rich, a thousand gold a day adds up quickly. There are some combats where it's worth it, but you don't always know at the start of the day when those will be. I guess that, since you have access to your full list and can change every day, it's something to keep in mind for those rare days when you do know that it'll be worth it, but it's certainly not a bread-and-butter spell.

And no love for Wrath of Nature (5th level)? In the right terrain (with grass, trees, roots, and rocks), you can get in a lot of different effects with one spell. It's how a grumpy old druid says "Get off my lawn".

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not sure about Heroes' Feast. Even if you're rich, a thousand gold a day adds up quickly. There are some combats where it's worth it, but you don't always know at the start of the day when those will be. I guess that, since you have access to your full list and can change every day, it's something to keep in mind for those rare days when you do know that it'll be worth it, but it's certainly not a bread-and-butter spell. By the time you get to level 11, your party is hopefully smart enough to do some planning/recon to figure out what threats are coming your way, and, your pace of adventure may not be "go into the dungeon every day" ... my Bard had it (tasha's added it to their list) and we used it with some frequency but not every day. And one day that we did not use it we ran into a monster (kraken +) that did a lot of poison damage. :smallfrown: I sort of agree with your point, but since a druid can choose when and when not to use it, it's a great spell when you figure that you need it. (And wisdom saves are very, very common).

[sambojin]

A few extra handy or niche ones to prepare. I mean, you're a druid. You can change your spell loadout drastically each day, depending on how you feel, the alignment of the stars, etc.

LVL 4: Locate Creature
1000' doesn't sound like much, but it's pretty big on a grid when it's a dungeon bash. Is the BBEG within 200 grid squares of you, possibly even on another dungeon level? You'll know.

LVL 5: Geas
Not actually effective against enemies, it's just fun to make people do stuff during downtime in towns, etc. No concentration, so ensure the thing you asked for is done when you've got stuff to do. Druidic social manipulation at its least fine.
Greater Restoration: this comes up occasionally in high level play, but it can wait a day to prepare it. If it doesn't need lesser restoration, or wish, it probably just needs this.
Scrying: I've mentioned it, but I'll mention it again. It is really damn handy. If you've never seen the boss, let a mook "get away" at some point. Preferably one that you chopped a bit off. Free sensor data and fun DM freeforming (Heroes Feast works better when you know today is the day).

Lvl7: Mirage Arcane: umm, there's no reason to not pop this on your list sometimes. Sure, it's a lvl7 slot, but a 1 mile radius is pretty huge. This is mostly to mess with your DM. Do you need a castle or tavern or village or mountain or lake or heaps of shagpile carpeting and disco lights or something within 10mins? For 10 days? Without concentration? Possibly inside a dungeon? Yep. Slot it in sometimes 😉
(You can cast this in beast shape at lvl18, and reality warping is fun. There's no save against it, you just made a luxurious boudoir in the dungeon dimension, because you can). If it's not a particularly heavy combat day, or your lvl1-6 spells can cover it easily enough (they can), feel free to cast this 3 times a day at lvl17+ with all your lvl7-9 slots. It's fun to mess with world building.

[NecessaryWeevil]

More context.

I forgot we leveled up at the end of last session

So now we have
Lv 18 kenku moon druid
Lv 15 deep gnome life cleric (druid's second character)
Lv 18 earth genasi Gloom stalker ranger focused on archery (my character)
Dragonborn Lv 3 hexblade warlock lv 15 Whisper bard who mostly attacks with a greatsword
Lv 18 deep gnome battlemaster fighter with a rapier and shield

Two observations:
1) Playing two full casters at the same time can be tricky even for someone who knows the class well. That might be part of the problem the OP is trying to solve (don't know if changing that up is desirable / an option).
2) Normally a moon druid is a tank but everyone except the archer can survive in melee, so what's good for *this* moon druid might differ from what's recommended for *other* moon druids (e.g. concentration spells might be safer).

[Dr. Murgunstrum]

Two observations:
1) Playing two full casters at the same time can be tricky even for someone who knows the class well. That might be part of the problem the OP is trying to solve (don't know if changing that up is desirable / an option).
2) Normally a moon druid is a tank but everyone except the archer can survive in melee, so what's good for *this* moon druid might differ from what's recommended for *other* moon druids (e.g. concentration spells might be safer).

As someone who recently took a moon druid from level 1-20 in a three year campaign, IÂ’d say you want to plan for contingencies:

First: whatÂ’s your concentration being spent on?

At 9th level, shapechange is disgustingly good. If youÂ’ve ever met a dragon, or a high CR spell caster (I had a blue abishai we had met in the 9 hells) then you have a completely new character that could potentially take you through the entire adventuring day without spending a single resource save your 9th level spell.

If youÂ’ve soaked the max HP the spell allows for (usually youÂ’ll pick that shape first and soak some damage before switching to a caster with a lower HP) youÂ’ll still have an entirely loaded character left, bereft perhaps of Foresight (the other 9th level spell worth considering) but full of health, wildshapes and spell slots. The only drawback is you canÂ’t cast concentration spells as your shape, so youÂ’ll be limited to being a blaster for the most part.

After youÂ’ve soaked hundreds of HP worth of damage, IÂ’d venture either sun or moon beam warrant your concentration if you want to go on the offensive. Moonbeam upcast is superior against single targets, or small clusters, whereas sunbeam is an AOE laser of doom. If you can lock 3 or more opponents in your first shot or two, it makes up for the deficiencies of sunbeams lower damage die.

The alternative is a strong summoning spell. If you have a menagerie or a bunch of hirelings or followers, animal shapes can be ridiculous.

Or summon an elemental. The earth or air elemental are 90-120 hp worth of soak, and the earth elemental works to control with grappling and the air elemental can provide someone with flight or at least deal with ranged or flying foes.

Speaking of summoning elementals, combining an upcast spell with planar binding to create an entourage of myrmidon body guards is pretty disgusting if you have the cash. (A big Xorn and their treasure sense could be a solution if you donÂ’t have the cash)

Fallbacks for concentration might be the situationally potent reverse gravity, polymorph to keep tanking with a TRex or an Ape or wall of stone or fire for some control.

Once you have those sorted, itÂ’s time to consider your support spells: heroes feast is a great use of that 6th level slot (upcast sunbeam with a 7th or 8th which are mostly dead slots for you, or rely on moonbeam as DOT). YouÂ’ll probably want at least one, or both of the restoration spells and healing word is non-negotiable. Revivify is also non negotiable. You may want to consider Healing Spirit, or the health potion sprinkler as my party dubbed it, so your party can run through it repeatedly after combat. Pass without trace is a boon for sneaking and out of combat enhance ability could be considered.

For defense, absorb elements should suffice with all those extra hit points. Barkskin isnÂ’t necessary.

Then itÂ’s on to utility: you have a decent suite of divination spells like detect magic or scrying, and more situational ones like the locate spells. Speak with animals is always thematic and with animal shapes or polymorph or just having pets, itÂ’s good to show your DM youÂ’re committed to your menagerie if youÂ’re allowed it. You also might want a charm or Geas spell as a social fallback.

Finally, pick some blaster spells for when youÂ’re concentrating on something other than sunbeam or moonbeam: ice knife upcasts decently, cone of cold is pretty effective or perhaps a land or wildfire druid has something more potent.

Lastly, transportation: plane shift is a potent bug out spell, assuming you have a safe port of call to shift to. Transport via plants or wind walk are also both super effective ways to bypass obstacles.

That should keep you mostly loaded, though you may tweak for circumstance: reincarnate, true resurrection, druid grove, plant growth, mirage arcane, water breathing and other spells have situational applications.

[KorvinStarmast]

First: what’s your concentration being spent on?

At 9th level, shapechange is disgustingly good. If you’ve ever met a dragon, or a high CR spell caster (I had a blue abishai we had met in the 9 hells) then you have a completely new character that could potentially take you through the entire adventuring day without spending a single resource save your 9th level spell. I'll second this notion. Turning into an adult gold or red dragon opens up some nice options.

The only drawback is you can’t cast concentration spells as your shape, so youÂ’ll be limited to being a blaster for the most part. Concentration management is one of those druid things ...


Moonbeam upcast is superior against single targets, or small clusters, whereas sunbeam is an AOE laser of doom. If you can lock 3 or more opponents in your first shot or two, it makes up for the deficiencies of sunbeams lower damage die. Had not considered the upcast, but then, my only high level druid play has been one shots.


and the air elemental can provide someone with flight or at least deal with ranged or flying foes.
Yep.

Revivify is also non negotiable.
Keep those diamonds handy. :smallsmile:


Lastly, transportation: plane shift is a potent bug out spell, assuming you have a safe port of call to shift to. Transport via plants or wind walk are also both super effective ways to bypass obstacles. We've used wind walk a few times, it's a great spell.

[Chronos]

Ooh, I hadn't noticed that Mirage Arcane was on the druid list. It's not as amazing for them as it is for an illusionist, of course, but it's still quite good. As is its little brother, Hallucinatory Terrain, though that's more situational, since it's only natural terrain.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ooh, I hadn't noticed that Mirage Arcane was on the druid list. It's not as amazing for them as it is for an illusionist, of course, but it's still quite good. As is its little brother, Hallucinatory Terrain, though that's more situational, since it's only natural terrain. The green hag coven I have near salt marsh has that as one of their coven spells. Effective (the PCs have not yet grasped what was going on there ...)

[Captain Panda]

Spam Conjure Ani-


I mean, Conjure Animals is pretty much the answer. Upcast to 5th or 7th level it scales so well it's going to be real hard to beat. At 9th level, Shapechange is a really awesome spell, but you need to have seen some good, high CR creatures.

As a moon druid you want long duration, high value concentration spells for when you are wild shaped. Conjure Animals is pretty muchthe spell to cast. You should be casting it unless you have a good reason not to, like the creatures are immune to nonmagical weapon attacks. Even then, a pile of grapples, help actions and meat walls can be very handy.

[Hael]

I mean, Conjure Animals is pretty much the answer. Upcast to 5th or 7th level it scales so well it's going to be real hard to beat. At 9th level, Shapechange is a really awesome spell, but you need to have seen some good, high CR creatures.

As a moon druid you want long duration, high value concentration spells for when you are wild shaped.

Its not too hard to see high lvl CR creatures for shapechange, given the copious amounts of divination spells likely available to you at that lvl. But yes, summoning spells as a moon druid is the usual answer, simply b/c of the duration.

If OP wasn’t a moon druid, there are many great spells (more in the battlefield control variety) like bones of the earth, transmute rock, reverse gravity, wall of X that I would be actively encouraging.. But given that he is, its really out of combat stuff (heal), situational spells (illusions, divinitation), summons or wildshape buffs (eg draconic transformation and heroes feast). Of course shapechange is the big game breaking spell that you will eventually cast (or take foresight if you dnot want to break the game too much).

I should note that animal shapes is another spell that is kinda either not very useful, or broken as it allows you to literally make an army out of your pet bees and flood any battlefield with basically unlimited hitpoints..

[Chronos]

You don't need to have seen a bunch of high-CR monsters to make Shapechange OP-- You only need one. And heck, one of the starter adventures has the party meeting (though hopefully not fighting) an ancient gold dragon.

[Eldariel]

Shapechange is the best spell in the game. Teleportation, scrying, etc. can make it pretty easy to expand your horizons but you don't need much to make it bonkers.

[jaappleton]

I just want to reiterate Sunbeam, and I'm incredibly happy to see it so well recommended here by everyone else.

Its my absolute favorite spell in the game. So much so that I championed adding it to the Cleric list for Tasha's, and... One designer acknowledged to me that it honestly should've been there from the start.

[KorvinStarmast]

I just want to reiterate Sunbeam, and I'm incredibly happy to see it so well recommended here by everyone else.

Its my absolute favorite spell in the game. So much so that I championed adding it to the Cleric list for Tasha's, and... One designer acknowledged to me that it honestly should've been there from the start. I am going to lobby with my DM to get that as a mystic arcanum for my Celestial Warlock (she already has wall of light) but I am not sure if he'll go along with it.

[Azuresun]

And if you ever get a chance to choose the battlefield in advance or want to fortify a home base, Druid Grove is amazing. The whole area is now rough terrain and blinding.....but only for your enemies.

[jaappleton]

I am going to lobby with my DM to get that as a mystic arcanum for my Celestial Warlock (she already has wall of light) but I am not sure if he'll go along with it.

I might do the same, so I can play a Paladin that isn't a Paladin.

I do wish WOTC would explore more 'inherently good' aspects of Warlocks for 5e. Even aside from inherently good creatures that a Warlock could make a pact with, there's plenty of not-good creatures that can be associated with radiant. Evil gods and their exarchs, for example, and in 4th edition there was the star-like being Caiphon, whose followers specialized in Cold and Radiant damage.

Plenty of precedence for it. Should be on there. It'd instantly be my favorite Mystic Arcanum.

[KorvinStarmast]

I might do the same, so I can play a Paladin that isn't a Paladin.

I do wish WOTC would explore more 'inherently good' aspects of Warlocks for 5e. Even aside from inherently good creatures that a Warlock could make a pact with, there's plenty of not-good creatures that can be associated with radiant. Evil gods and their exarchs, for example, and in 4th edition there was the star-like being Caiphon, whose followers specialized in Cold and Radiant damage.

Plenty of precedence for it. Should be on there. It'd instantly be my favorite Mystic Arcanum. Given how limited Mystic Arcanums (arcanae?) are for any warlock (and as I read RAW one is not allowed to change them at level up unlike spells, which seems a very strict rule of dubious value to me) I'd like to see each patron's list expand to include a few more choices based on patron.

Or is that getting too far off the feel of Warlock there?

[Eldariel]

Given how limited Mystic Arcanums (arcanae?) are for any warlock (and as I read RAW one is not allowed to change them at level up unlike spells, which seems a very strict rule of dubious value to me) I'd like to see each patron's list expand to include a few more choices based on patron.

Or is that getting too far off the feel of Warlock there?

Honestly? I think it feels more Warlockey. The whole concept of "Warlock spell list" is kind of absurd considering their power literally comes from an otherworldly being - different otherworldly beings have very different powers and many of them don't make sense on many Warlocks.

[jaappleton]

Honestly? I think it feels more Warlockey. The whole concept of "Warlock spell list" is kind of absurd considering their power literally comes from an otherworldly being - different otherworldly beings have very different powers and many of them don't make sense on many Warlocks.

Agreed.

The same argument could be made for Clerics Domain spells, I feel.

These two classes specialize in having power granted by something else. Whether an otherworldly being or a divine power, etc. Your special flavor of sugar daddy shouldn't stop at 5th level spells.

[Captain Panda]

Shapechange is the best spell in the game. Teleportation, scrying, etc. can make it pretty easy to expand your horizons but you don't need much to make it bonkers.

Best as in most fun, or strongest? Definitely isn't stronger than True Polymorph.

[Eldariel]

Best as in most fun, or strongest? Definitely isn't stronger than True Polymorph.

I think it's the strongest. True Polymorph can do some stuff Shapechange can't but Shapechange lets you combine spellcasting and arbitrary forms which is pretty sweet, and access over a 1000 forms per casting (Extended) while True Polymorph takes a casting per form. True Polymorph has some really absurd abilities like generating N wraiths off Atropal over a day or two, but Shapechange lets you like Teleport without Error, use almost unbeatable location abilities (e.g. Elder Brain mind radar and telepathy and such), various kinds of minionmancy (e.g. Retrievers off Drow Matron Mother), basically every level 5- spell in the game and most level 6+ ones too, and of course all sorts of absurd physical options and ability options (you can pick someone's mind, create copies off them, eat someone's brain, eat someone's soul, etc. - whatever needs doing).

For consolidating power, True Polymorph is probably stronger and of course you want both, but Shapechange is nuts for actually doing things.

[sambojin]

Another thing I mentioned, but probably not enough: Conjure Woodland Beings. Yes, they're spell batteries, but they're so much more and there's a tonne of fun things to do, no matter the encounter or campaign type.

These days, there is just so much there, that with a somewhat permissive DM, you can do a lot with that one spell prep choice. And they're smart, and most of them have hands, can use equipment, and can talk. You're also conjuring them from the Feywild, so there's none of the "there's none of that animal type in this terrain" stuff to not give you the type you choose, they're all there, all the time. It's where they live, when they're not helping out with druid shenanigans.

Brigganock: have minor illusion x8 and silence and faerie fire. It can tunnel through solid rock and meld into it. And 8x1 hours of work done in six seconds(!). Why, yes, I'd like an underground fortress for the little people next turn. Or a fortress wall demolished. Or a pretty damn major illusion, or all spellcasters shutdown, or hit'n'hope faerie fire barrages, or all the animal buddies (give them a day of free training while you're at it). So much to do....

Mite: you just got Mass Bane, but better, and there's no DC for the effect. The -d6 simply works. It doesn't stack, but welcome to masses of bounded inaccuracy and ineptitude 🤭. Dex disadvantage and -d6 to Dex saves is brutal. Legendary saves do not apply to this effect, but they'll have to blow through them as all of your spells land. Or just restrain-on-hit with the certainty that they're never leaving that condition.

Alseid: a couple of extra plant growths will ail them while it cures you. Stack difficult terrain on top of it with your own spells to be sure.

Screaming Devilkin: constantly repeating incapacitation, at DC10 Wis, with a free AC17 dodge action. It's lockdown Jim, but not as we know it.

Quickling: disadvantage against AC16 is about AC19-20. 2x Three attacks with unlimited daggers at +8to-hit is about "better than Animate Dead will ever be". Sure, they die quick, but boy do they move quick as well.

Satyr Thornbearer: for when you get bored of summoned beasts/ fey, have a crappy archer with a pierce damage cone. It'll help you get used to the dragons when you just want a cheap taste of one (it can ride around on you in wildshape if you'd like).

Sea Hag: A DC11 Wis instant death spell, that is repeatable for an hour the moment something is frightened. In some parties, this happens pretty regularly. Things whiffing rolls and dying to Sea Hags that is.

This is on top of all the standard "I want all the Pixies" stuff from the spell. It's really versatile, and once you DM knows you'll choose all kinds of random stuff, they may even give you what you want sometimes, including Pixies.

[Psyren]

Honestly? I think it feels more Warlockey. The whole concept of "Warlock spell list" is kind of absurd considering their power literally comes from an otherworldly being - different otherworldly beings have very different powers and many of them don't make sense on many Warlocks.


Agreed.

The same argument could be made for Clerics Domain spells, I feel.

These two classes specialize in having power granted by something else. Whether an otherworldly being or a divine power, etc. Your special flavor of sugar daddy shouldn't stop at 5th level spells.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here with a small dissent - general spell lists exist for "entity-granted power" because the patron and deity are not the be-all and end-all for your character's powers, rather they are also granting you access to a common source available to other practitioners of your particular class. Obviously this has gamist reasons - balance and ease of play are both improved if there is a solid core of common spells that the player, their party, and the DM can expect to be there no matter which warlock or cleric they're working with - but there can be an in-universe, simulationist explanation too.

To wit, the designers gods, when forming the world and the rules of magic, designated a number of spells as being available to all clerics as a compromise amongst them - thus letting every cleric, say, be able to deal with disease or raise the dead instead of only the ones who worship deities with influence over those particular spheres of reality. And Patrons, since they are not deities, have their hands tied even more in terms of the power they can grant - so they would welcome a common source of power they can all dip into to entice more mortals to pact with them even moreso, one which contains boons that they'd have a much harder time granting by themselves. (How else would a unicorn get access to spider climb for instance?)

Now where I might agree is that the general list contains some spells that should be pact-specific. A fey or celestial pact warlock shouldn't really be granting summon undead or summon lesser demons for instance, and while I don't think Hunger of Hadar is out of reach for them, a name change to fit with their version wouldn't be remiss - but I think those kinds of minor tweaks can be separated from the idea of removing a general list entirely.