Bane and Epic Weapons

[Carden-Gix'oth]

Hey, all. I have a question for folks. Not sure if it's been asked before. Say I give a player a +4 Longsword of who cares, but, it has the Bane (Elves), or Fiercebane (Elves) property. (Bane: +2 enhancement vs Elves, +2d6 damage vs Elves, Fiercebane: Same as Bane, but also +1d10 vs Elves on a critical hit. Fiercebane is essentially "Bane Burst". Like Flaming Burst, but Bane)

Vs the creature, in this example, Elves, would the weapon count as an Epic +6 weapon, and bypass any DR X/Epic the target Elf may-or-may-not have?

It's a +4, and counts as a +6 vs Elves, so logically I'd say yes, but I can't seem to find any information one way or the other. At my table, being high powered, I don't see any issue with it, but we run RAW as much as possible, so I'm just trying to cover my bases.

Thanks ahead of time!

[tomandtish]

There's not really any specific ruling on what constitutes an epic level weapon. However I'd say yours doesn't cut it.

In looking at the Epic handbook table 4-10 notes that weapons are considered epic when the total enchantment (pluses and additional abilities) reach 11. Below that they are still considered normal weapons. If you're looking at the plus enchantment itself, Epic starts as 6.

But remember, Bane is not a a +2 in the same way that a +4 sword is by itself. Bane is an additional enchantment that gives a +2 in specific situations. Therefore the Bane property is not considered part of the base enchantment. It's an add on just like Vorpal, etc. So total enchantment value of the sword may be +6 (my books actually have Bane as a +1 enhancement value), but the base enchantment is just +4. By wither of those marks the weapon is not Epic.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

There's not really any specific ruling on what constitutes an epic level weapon. However I'd say yours doesn't cut it.

In looking at the Epic handbook table 4-10 notes that weapons are considered epic when the total enchantment (pluses and additional abilities) reach 11. Below that they are still considered normal weapons. If you're looking at the plus enchantment itself, Epic starts as 6.

But remember, Bane is not a a +2 in the same way that a +4 sword is by itself. Bane is an additional enchantment that gives a +2 in specific situations. Therefore the Bane property is not considered part of the base enchantment. It's an add on just like Vorpal, etc. So total enchantment value of the sword may be +6 (my books actually have Bane as a +1 enhancement value), but the base enchantment is just +4. By wither of those marks the weapon is not Epic.

An Epic Weapon is any weapon that has a +6 to hit and damage. When crafting an Epic Weapon, just to get the base +6 to hit/damage, it'll run you 720,000gp. A +1 Flaming, Shocking, Sonic, Frost, Acidic Longsword is a +6 weapon, for the purposes of "You have 10 'points' to spend". Before level 20, a weapon can have a max of a +5 enhancement bonus. +5 to attack/damage (Base price 50,000gp).

It can then have 5 more "points" spent, lets say, Flaming Burst (2), Holy (2), and Keen/Impact (1).

This makes the item "+10" (Base price 200,000gp) in terms of enchantment, but still only +5 to hit and damage. It's just a +5 Holy, Flaming Burst, Keen Longsword.

Bane (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#bane) states "Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus."

Since the weapon in question was a +4, with at least Bane on it, but lets say it's a +4 Flaming Burst (2), Sonic (1), Holy (2) Longsword of Elf Bane (1) (4+2+1+2+1=10), so the full 10 "points" are used, but it's only a +4 enhancement bonus, would count, vs Elves only (and by racial rules, Half-Elves since they qualify as both a Human and an Elf for all spells, effects, feats prestige classes, and magic items) as a +6 weapon. +6 to attack and damage. Which, since Epic Weapons (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm) are any weapon with an enhancement bonus to attack and damage of +6 or higher....

Yes, Bane is a +1, but RAW, that doesn't mean you can slap a Bane enchantment on a Masterwork Weapon. You have to take a Masterwork weapon, slap a +1 enhancement bonus enchantment onto it, turning it into a +1 Weapon (base price 2,000gp), and then you can add whatever you want to it, provided you have the Feats, Caster Level, Gold, Spells, and spare XP necessary to do so. Doing so, turning a +1 Longsword into a +1 Bane (Elves) Longsword, doesnt' make it a +2 Bane Longsword (base price 8,000gp).

It's still a +1, but it has 2 of the "points" spent as per Crafting Magic Weapons (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm) Rules.

This also means that you can have a +1 Longsword with Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst, Keen, Holy (or Unholy) and Axiomatic (or Anarchic) on it. A +1 Longsword that does, in total, 1d8 +STR +1 +1d6 Fire, +1d6 Lightning +2d6 Divine vs Evil (or Profane vs Good) +2d6 Lawful vs Chaotic (or Chaotic vs Lawful), and it's still just a +1 Longsword. Oh, we've used all 10 points to enchant, and it's a 200,000gp base price Longsword (higher if it's made of something other than Steel), but it's still, at the end of the day, a +1 Longsword that can't pierce DR X/Epic.


Not to sound like a butt, but I do know how to go about enchanting the item with Bane (and apologies if that sounds too a-holeish.


My question is, since, vs Elves alone, the "Effective enhancement bonus is considered a +6, and since Epic Weapons are any weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater, would a +4 or +5 weapon with the Bane property be considered, vs the target of the Bane only, an Epic +6 or +7 weapon?

Logically, I would say yes. Cause a +6 enhancement bonus is a +6 enhancement bonus. And of course, the Elven Bane Longsword wouldn't be Epic vs, say, Dwarves, or Humans, or Dragons, or Angels, or Pit Fiends, etc.

[Biggus]

There isn't a specific ruling as far as I know, but when I've seen this mentioned before most people seem to accept that a +4 or +5 bane weapon counts as epic vs DR. I'm generally pretty strict as a DM about allowing cheesy rules-as-written workarounds but I allow it.


Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus.

That's all the write-up for the bane property has to say about it: no caveats except that it only works against its designated foe.

Given that there are 31 categories of bane weapons, it doesn't seem particularly overpowered to allow you to overcome epic DR against a single type. The only possible concern with that is spells which grant the bane property to weapons, and of those the only one which is good enough to be a problem is the Bane Weapon spell from Dragon #279. The other two either only work against a single type (Undead Bane Weapon) or cost 500GP per casting for a 1 round per level spell (Bladebane), so if you're concerned about it devaluing epic damage reduction just don't allow Bane Weapon.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

There isn't a specific ruling as far as I know, but when I've seen this mentioned before most people seem to accept that a +4 or +5 bane weapon counts as epic vs DR. I'm generally pretty strict as a DM about allowing cheesy rules-as-written workarounds but I allow it.



That's all the write-up for the bane property has to say about it: no caveats except that it only works against its designated foe.

Given that there are 31 categories of bane weapons, it doesn't seem particularly overpowered to allow you to overcome epic DR against a single type. The only possible concern with that is spells which grant the bane property to weapons, and of those the only one which is good enough to be a problem is the Bane Weapon spell from Dragon #279. The other two either only work against a single type (Undead Bane Weapon) or cost 500GP per casting for a 1 round per level spell (Bladebane), so if you're concerned about it devaluing epic damage reduction just don't allow Bane Weapon.

This was my thought process on it. We do have a Paladin, Cleric and a Sorcerer in the party, but none of them have expressed interest in Baneblade. The campaign is a homebrew tale, FR setting, going against the Cult of the Dragon. I started writing it before Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat came out, and to my surprise, they're much the same. Dragon and cultist focused, Tiamat being the end villain. So I'm gonna be giving the Paladin (and probably the Cleric and/or Rogue) 1 or more Bane (Dragons) weapons, so I wanted to make sure I planned for the spike in power when I do give it to them, both for if +4 Bane (Dragons) counts as Epic +6, and for if it doesn't.

[Telonius]

I think the closest definition you're going to get of an Epic weapon would be here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm).


Epic Weapon Base Price
To find the base price of an epic magic weapon, roll on Table: Weapons. Note that the +6 to +10 rows apply only to weapons that provide an enhancement bonus of +6 to +10 or weapons with a single special ability whose market price modifier is +6 to +10. Magic weapons with a total effective bonus of +6 to +10 but that have an enhancement bonus of +5 or less and special abilities whose individual market price modifiers are +5 or less use the table for nonepic magic weapons to determine price.

So, if it either has a base enhancement of +6 or higher, or has a single special ability that's an effective bonus of +6 or higher (just from that abilitiy), then it's an Epic weapon and uses the Epic weapon table.

For your example, if it's a +1 Bane weapon, you have a +1 base enhancement. Bane is effectively a +1 enhancement. Total enhancement would be +2, meaning the base price is 8000gp. The base enhancement is less than +6, and the special ability enhancement is less than +6, so it's not an Epic weapon.

For a +1 Fiercebane weapon, you have a +1 base enhancement. Fiercebane is a synergy ability, meaning it has to have Bane first. Bane is +1, Fiercebane is an additional +1. Total effective enhancement is +3. Base is less than 6, special abilities are less than 6, so it's non-epic.

If you have a +5 Bane Fiercebane Speed weapon, still not Epic. Speed is +3. Total effective enhancement of +10. Base bonus +5, abilities less than 6, so non-epic.

But, if you have a +1 Dread (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm#dread) weapon, you're dealing with an Epic weapon. Even though the total effective enhancement is only +8, which is less than your +5 Bane Fiercebane Speed weapon. That's because the Dread ability is a +7. So it's an Epic weapon that uses the Epic pricing table.

A +6 Bane weapon is also Epic. Even less of an effective enhancement bonus than Dread, but the base enhancement is +6. So, Epic.

A +1 Bane Defending Flaming Frost Shock Ghost Touch weapon has a base enhancement of +1, and an effective enhancement of +7. But all of the special abilities are +1's. None of them is +6 or better on its own. So, not Epic.

[Seward]

Epic weapon definitions are for epic pricing, and are especially important if buying a +1 <epic add-on> weapon. The latter weapon will have an epic pricetag but won't penetrate epic DR.

For defeating DR/Epic, what you need is +6 or better enhancement.


A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

It shouldn't (and wouldn't at my table) matter if you got that with an epic arcane archer who makes any arrow he fires a +6 arrow, or with a normal archer who has a +4 evil outsider bane bow shooting an evil outsider.

Or you can pay the stupidly high cost of a +6 weapon enhancement. Or just suck up the DR, when you can deal 450hp/round, losing 100 of that to DR might not matter all that much. You certainly have a lot more WBL in low epic if you ignore the epic weapons for a while until you have bought every single non-epic item that can help you, including +5 books for any attribute you care about.

My first priority in epic when buying items is getting saves and offensive attribute as high as the chasse will allow and some reroll items for when the natural 1s occur. This will organically also raise hitpoints a bit. Boosting all AC related items to non-epic maximums (+5 deflection, natural armor, armor, shield, 5k ioun stone, whatever works for the chasse) comes next.

Generally you can max all of that out with level 21 WBL with minimal effort, and it's even easier if you can count on long running buffs in some areas or don't have slots that are impacted. If you don't have access to nonstandard items you might be stuck with only an amulet of con+6/ioun stone wisdom+2 and +4-5 books in each, and have a hard time also getting a natural armor item (in core, also a neck item) but you do what you can. (some might go for +5 natural armor and 2 ioun stones, depending on relative importance of +5Ac vs +40hp/2 fort save and/or 2 will save in a core epic campaign)

This ensures you can ignore the non-epic scrubs until you deal with the dangerous opponents.

Weapons come later.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, if it's for DR n/epic, it literally only cares how much enhancement bonus you have. Bane says your enhancement bonus is two higher, so if that makes it high enough then IMO that's good enough to defeat the DR.

[animewatcha]

If this was 3.0, one could make argument of yes. 3.0 had the DR emphasis of needing a +X weapon. 3.5 this got rolled over to /magic, /cold iron, /good

[icefractal]

IMO -

RAW, yes. The quote in Seward's post above clearly states that DR/epic is bypassed by weapons which are +6 or better. Not "weapons which cost a large enough amount" or "weapons which require an epic crafter to create".

Balance-wise, also yes. In terms of people who are doing damage as a tactic, uberchargers don't really care about DR, mailmen don't care at all about it, and other weapon users could probably use some help at epic levels.

Thematically, also yes. Actually it's a pretty cool interaction if you're using Epic foes at pre-Epic levels - the way to pierce their DR is with a weapon that's specifically made to fight their type of being? That's great, it's practically a naturally-emergent McGuffin plot but with more agency involved.

[Biggus]

Thematically, also yes. Actually it's a pretty cool interaction if you're using Epic foes at pre-Epic levels - the way to pierce their DR is with a weapon that's specifically made to fight their type of being? That's great, it's practically a naturally-emergent McGuffin plot but with more agency involved.

That's a pretty cool idea, I might use that myself. Also works at low-epic levels, the cheapest actual epic weapon costs 720,000GP so they're virtually nonexistent until about level 23, and not common until about level 26.