Value of Metamagics vs Eldritch Invocations

[dmhelp]

Pretend Warlocks did not exist. If a Sorcerer could choose between 2 metamagics and 2 invocations at level 3 (increasing to 3 at 10 & 4 at 17) would it be balanced (comparing metamagic sorc vs invocation sorc)? Assume Sorcerers also got access to eldritch blast on their spell list.

[Kane0]

Metamagic scales by sorcery points and the spells they are used on.
Invocations scale by warlock level and pact chosen

Its harda hard to compare them.

[f5anor]

Pretend Warlocks did not exist. If a Sorcerer could choose between 2 metamagics and 2 invocations at level 3 (increasing to 3 at 10 & 4 at 17) would it be balanced (comparing metamagic sorc vs invocation sorc)? Assume Sorcerers also got access to eldritch blast on their spell list.

Eldritch invocations can be sorted in a few differed groups the three noteworthy are substitutes for spells/slots that Warlocks do not have, hidden subclass features labeled as pact restricted invocations, the last one being improvements to Eldritch Blast.

Metamagic on the other hand represents fundamental changes to how magic works, each one allows the Sorcerer to break an otherwise iron rule in 5e magic.

The two are simply not comparable. Metamagic is far more powerful, impactful and also more widely applicable. Eldritch invocations, as fun as they may be, are sort of bandaids meant to patch-up weaknesses of the base Warlock class. They allow you to customize the class to create a different kind of Warlock by selecting different class options.

Why not just multiclass?

[dmhelp]

So it wouldn't really be overpowered if Sorcerers could choose Metamagics and Invocations (still 2 @ 3, 3 @10, and 4 @ 17)? E.g. quicken & mask of many faces.

[Melphizard]

Metamagics and Invocations are starkly different things. Metamagics exist to modify spells you cast and only serve to do such. Invocations are basically Build-A-Warlock-Workshop when it comes to choosing your abilities. Invocations are like a second subclass which you grow alongside your existence as a Warlock; but, as with most subclasses, some things are better or more picked than others.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Pretend Warlocks did not exist.

Actually I pretend sorcerers don't exist. It's a banned class in my game. Had a bad experience with it.

[Amdy_vill]

so both are of equivalent power. but the problem is that Metamagic and invocations are so baked into the class's design that swapping invocations is actually a downgrade. invocations are powerful because they combo well with other warlock spells and class features. in the absence of these most invocations lose their power. still powerful but not an equivalent toe metamagic.

[Burley]

I think there's a middle-ground where Sorcerer and Warlock could mix or trade class features, but I don't know if it's invocations and metamagic. Invocations are meant to fill in for a warlock's limited flexibility, while metamagic is meant to enhance sorcerer's strengths. If a character wants both worlds in one class, that's what feats are for.

Some of the Warlock Pacts, like the Genie one, I think would be perfect as a Sorcerous Origin. Simply change "patron" to "heritage" and you're done. That's where I'd suggest mixing and matching class features.

[Bobthewizard]

I think trading out all of your metamagic for invocations is a slight downgrade. Being able to mix and match them is a slight upgrade from metamagic alone. But neither of those options are too far away from the base power to make them unplayable. I think the trade would be fine from a balance perspective. The character would be playable and not overpowered.

If a player asked to take trade out a sorcerer's metamagic for invocations I would let them. If a player asked to trade a warlock's invocations for metamagic I would be hesitant.

[Psyren]

An invocation that gave you limited access to metamagic and sorcery points (stacking with the points gained from Metamagic Adept or a Sorlock multiclass) could be fun.

[Burley]

An invocation that gave you limited access to metamagic and sorcery points (stacking with the points gained from Metamagic Adept or a Sorlock multiclass) could be fun.

HMMMMM.....
The invocations that affect eldritch blast are pretty similar to metamagic, and I think its a fair trade to have unlimited uses of the invocation (instead of using sorcery points), because it'd only affect EB.

Would there be any metamagics that'd be broken if they became invocations, but only for eldritch blast? Perhaps Quicken, but since you probably can only do two (insert non-cantrip spells) per short rest, you're not firing two spells every round. Maybe an EB and a melee attack, though?

[Kane0]

HMMMMM.....
The invocations that affect eldritch blast are pretty similar to metamagic, and I think its a fair trade to have unlimited uses of the invocation (instead of using sorcery points), because it'd only affect EB.

Would there be any metamagics that'd be broken if they became invocations, but only for eldritch blast? Perhaps Quicken, but since you probably can only do two (insert non-cantrip spells) per short rest, you're not firing two spells every round. Maybe an EB and a melee attack, though?

Bonus action for one extra EB ray instead of a whole new casting?

[KorvinStarmast]

Actually I pretend sorcerers don't exist. It's a banned class in my game. Had a bad experience with it. Be careful, someone may demand that you explain why. :smallbiggrin: But it won't be me.

The longer I play this edition the more I like warlocks (Hexblade excepted).

I don't know if I'll ever get this arm of my world, as a campaign, fleshed out enough to be started but I have been doing some slow tinkering in my world building and the only arcane casters in the game will be warlocks.
I am still fiddling with "Do clerics exist as PCs?" (druids do for sure) and so far clerics/priests are solely of the NPC variety.

This may be a stretch too far, but I may also reshape / homebrew bards to be a half INT caster. Unfortunately, that project, which I was supposed to have time for over Christmtas holidays, blew up in my face (spousal tasking is a thing) and is still unfinished.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Be careful, someone may demand that you explain why. :smallbiggrin: But it won't be me.

I don't know if I'll ever get this arm of my world, as a campaign, fleshed out enough to be started but I have been doing some slow tinkering in my world building and the only arcane casters in the game will be warlocks.
I am still fiddling with "Do clerics exist as PCs?" (druids do for sure) and so far clerics/priests are solely of the NPC variety.

I've run a game where the only caster class available to the players is druid. This was my pre-Christian Ireland setting.

NPCs were whatever I needed (not sorc) them to be. It was a game that heavily featured martial might vs unnatural magics, and sometimes vs fey magic. If the players are ok with it, then all is good.

Your warlock only world might mean the patrons are the deities, and none can grant powers beyond a patron. This means the patrons are perhaps actively intriguing with their warlocks, which makes for good complications.

Divine (cleric) magic doesn't exist, or does it? A hapless NPC unable to get a patron interested in them (low CHA?!?), then turns to a (forbidden?) book of prayers that put them in contact with a divine magic. Is this NPC now a villain to be stopped, or a ward to be protected as they nurture the tiny flame of divine magic?

Just spitballing.

[Burley]

Bonus action for one extra EB ray instead of a whole new casting?

Oh, yeah. I guess at higher levels it would be a lot of extra damage if it was a full cast. So, yeah, it'd be broken to include that one.