Monks in Armor

[sithlordnergal]

So, I'm thinking of playing a Fighter/Monk with the Unarmed Fighting Style that wields either a Greatsword or a Longsword. They'll be wearing heavy armor, and I'm focusing on Strength and Wisdom instead of Dexterity. This is mostly for the memes since the Monk only loses Martial Arts, Unarmored Movement, and Unarmored Defense when they wear armor and I find that fact really, really funny.

That said, I'm torn about what subclass to take and I'm a bit curious about how Martial Arts dice interact with wearing armor. Normally the Martial Arts dice are used for the Martial Arts ability, which is shut off when you wear armor. But there are now several subclasses that use the Martial Arts dice, such as Mercy, Sun Soul, or Kensei, but there's no mention of those abilities being "turned off" by wearing armor. So if, say, a level 6 Kensei Monk wearing heavy armor were to use their Deft Strike ability, which lets them add their Martial Arts die to one damage roll, would you use the d6 their Monk level gives them, would you add nothing, or would you add your Strength score?

Do keep in mind, I'm going by RAW here, not RAI and not homebrew. This is going to be an AL character, and nothing prevents them from wearing armor in AL. Near as I can tell, you'd be able to use the d6 from their Martial Arts die. But its always good to ask around just in case.

[Dork_Forge]

Nothing in the RAW says your MA Die doesn't increase because you're using armor, you just can't use it for what Martials Arts says. Those subclasses are referring to the MA Die, but they aren't using Martial Arts as a feature.

[sithlordnergal]

Nothing in the RAW says your MA Die doesn't increase because you're using armor, you just can't use it for what Martials Arts says. Those subclasses are referring to the MA Die, but they aren't using Martial Arts as a feature.

That's what I got from my reading too. I just like to make sure since a Monk in armor is gonna get even more raised eyebrows at a table then a Druid in metal. XD

[Sherlockpwns]

Yeah there's little rules against anything like this. Some particularly interesting notes that you're probably already aware of is you can still use your ki points for Flurry, Step, or Defense as well.

Both Mercy monk abilities at 3 still function. As do the new (not super popular) dragon, shadow monk, etc.

With the new Ki-fueled attack it opens up some weird stuff like you could have a longsword. Attack action, replace the attack with a breath attack (potentially twice after you get extra attack), and then bonus-action attack with your sword. Or when you miss an attack, use Focused Aim to hit and then (since you used ki points) attack again as a bonus action.

As a result I'd suggest the long sword (two-handed when you attack usually) since you can't use ki-fueled attack with a greatsword.

Another thing you "can" do (not saying you should) is you could simply take Unarmed Fighting at fighter 1 and combine it with Mercy Hand of Harm, which will add your martial arts die + wis to a hit for 1 ki AND give you a bonus action attack via ki-fuel. That's a pretty big dmg increase for 1 ki. Depending on race selection, its possible to do this without taking Unarmed Fighting as well (Lizardfolk and Minotaurs have 1d6 for unarmed strikes, many others have 1d4).

In fact, it's easier to simply state what abilities flat out DONT work; because the list is pretty short:

Unarmored Defense
Martial Arts
Unarmored Movement
And while technically it DOES work, Flurry of Blows only gives you 1dmg instead of MA dice, so you'll probably never use it... unless your race has natural weapons. CHOMP CHOMP BABY!

That's it. So yeah, go nuts with a heavy armor monk!

[stoutstien]

I've played around with armored monks and the best I've come up with is using kensei to have high AC and BA dodge on tap. Works well for any melee combatant really if you don't want to rely on spell casting to get into the good AC range.

[Psyren]

IIRC the aversion to monks in armor isn't that you can't do it, but more a question of why you'd bother when you can just be a class that doesn't give anything up to do it :smalltongue:

[Pildion]

So, I'm thinking of playing a Fighter/Monk with the Unarmed Fighting Style that wields either a Greatsword or a Longsword. They'll be wearing heavy armor, and I'm focusing on Strength and Wisdom instead of Dexterity. This is mostly for the memes since the Monk only loses Martial Arts, Unarmored Movement, and Unarmored Defense when they wear armor and I find that fact really, really funny.

That said, I'm torn about what subclass to take and I'm a bit curious about how Martial Arts dice interact with wearing armor. Normally the Martial Arts dice are used for the Martial Arts ability, which is shut off when you wear armor. But there are now several subclasses that use the Martial Arts dice, such as Mercy, Sun Soul, or Kensei, but there's no mention of those abilities being "turned off" by wearing armor. So if, say, a level 6 Kensei Monk wearing heavy armor were to use their Deft Strike ability, which lets them add their Martial Arts die to one damage roll, would you use the d6 their Monk level gives them, would you add nothing, or would you add your Strength score?

Do keep in mind, I'm going by RAW here, not RAI and not homebrew. This is going to be an AL character, and nothing prevents them from wearing armor in AL. Near as I can tell, you'd be able to use the d6 from their Martial Arts die. But its always good to ask around just in case.

I would go Kensei Monk, with first level in fighter and grab Unarmed Fighting.

Fighter:1>Kensei19

You can use Flurry of Blows now with fighter style Unarmed Fighting and have d6's
You get Kensei features for magic weapon and monk magic unarmed strikes, along with all the +weapon features that Kensei brings. I would be a funny but functional melee combatant haha.

[Sherlockpwns]

IIRC the aversion to monks in armor isn't that you can't do it, but more a question of why you'd bother when you can just be a class that doesn't give anything up to do it :smalltongue:

Well, the first reason is because it’s silly, not everything has to be min/maxed; but actually you give up VERY little is the interesting thing.

You don’t get the extra move speed and can’t BA attack for free. That’s about it. Your AC is still basically the same and as long as you have another way to BA attack you basically gave up nothing to gain a variety of monk abilities like snatching arrows, evasion, diamond soul.

Then you get to play with KI as your main class mechanic. The nice thing about KI is there is quite a bit of flexibility you get which another martial class simply can not get (easily). For instance BA dodge, burst damage from hands of harm and KI-fueled, BA disengage (ok that one is easy to get from rogue), or spending ki to be more accurate, etc.

Anyway not saying it’s some secret OP build, but it’s easily right on par with any straight class martial build not abusing a mechanic. It’d hold up just fine against a fighter with a sword and shield for instance.

[JLandan]

Fighter 2/Kensei x

I played this build once. Quite effective. I let him go to Fighter 2 for action surge. Lost a ki point, but extra action per short rest makes up for it and the additional HP always handy.

[Quietus]

Nothing in the RAW says your MA Die doesn't increase because you're using armor, you just can't use it for what Martials Arts says. Those subclasses are referring to the MA Die, but they aren't using Martial Arts as a feature.

It's worth noting that some DMs may disagree. It states :


You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield.

- You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
- You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
- When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn.

I think, strict RAW, you'd be okay - the martial arts die is given in the column referenced, and this point is only telling you how you could use it. But you may encounter some DMs who will interpret this to mean that the benefits of that column are only granted in the given, restricted situation.

[JLandan]

It's worth noting that some DMs may disagree. It states :



I think, strict RAW, you'd be okay - the martial arts die is given in the column referenced, and this point is only telling you how you could use it. But you may encounter some DMs who will interpret this to mean that the benefits of that column are only granted in the given, restricted situation.

With the Unarmed Fighting style, it's a straight d6 for unarmed strike, better than a low level Monk, the same as a mid-level Monk, and only slightly worse than a higher level Monk.

None of the Kensei features refer to the Martial Arts feature, only to the die. If the DM rules against it, then make a different character or get a different DM. As a DM I would allow it. It is RAW and it is not game breaking.

[JLandan]

I always have held the belief that armored monks are perfectly viable, as are armored barbarians. All barbarian restrictions are based on heavy armor, of which they do not have proficiency anyway. Monks just need more tweaking, usually through multiclass.

[sithlordnergal]

Thanks for all the replies. I've decided on Fighter 1 / Kensei Monk 19, mostly because the extra ASI is gonna be nice to have. I'm glad that my reading of the Monk seems to be correct, given the consensus. And obviously I always talk to my DMs about potential shenanigans my characters have, and have swapped characters when a DM has asked me to please not play the Fighter/Wild Magic Sorcerer with a Wand of Wonder. So I can do the same with this one.

[Amechra]

The real question is... what level are you starting at?

If you're starting off in T1, you're going to run into the painful fact that an armored Monk gets literally nothing from Monk 1, and only 2/3rds-ish of the benefits of Monk 2 (it was even worse before Tasha's added the Unarmed fighting style).

At higher levels, having a single dead level isn't going to hurt you all that much... but it's still a pretty meme-y build. Which... eh, if that's what you're after, knock yourself out.


I always have held the belief that armored monks are perfectly viable, as are armored barbarians. All barbarian restrictions are based on heavy armor, of which they do not have proficiency anyway. Monks just need more tweaking, usually through multiclass.

So, umm... an armored Barbarian (AKA, a Barbarian that wears Medium armor) isn't just viable, it's the better option. Unarmored Defense on a Barbarian is a trap, since it asks you to either have a good Str, Con, and Dex (on a class that really wants you to pick up certain feats), or to go Dex/Con (which leaves all of the Barbarian's early-game damage-dealing boosts on the table and cuts you off from GWM and the like).

With some quick math, a Fighter 1/Monk X that decides to go with boosting Dex/Wis instead of wearing armor and boosting Str/Wis is basically going to trade roughly +2 AC (from being able to use a shield) for an at-will BA attack, a speed boost, better initiative, and better ranged options (heck, if you pick up the Unarmed fighting style, you're looking at dealing more damage than the longsword-and-Unarmed build, since you can just fight empty-handed). Heck, the armored build is actually more ki-dependent than a normal Monk, since they don't have a free bonus action to fall back on when they're trying to conserve their go juice. Your big advantage is that you have set of magical items that let you massively boost your attack stat with no further personal investment, and that you have two extra "slots" for magical items.

Is playing an Armored Monk going to result in a TPK? Probably not, unless you're playing with diehard optimizers. Does it basically amount to jumping through a ton of hoops for minimal gain? Yeah, pretty much... unless you're playing with a group that's really generous with magical items.

[sithlordnergal]

The real question is... what level are you starting at?

If you're starting off in T1, you're going to run into the painful fact that an armored Monk gets literally nothing from Monk 1, and only 2/3rds-ish of the benefits of Monk 2 (it was even worse before Tasha's added the Unarmed fighting style).

At higher levels, having a single dead level isn't going to hurt you all that much... but it's still a pretty meme-y build. Which... eh, if that's what you're after, knock yourself out.


I'd be starting at level 1, since there are some decent items you can poach in T1 games with AL. That said, I'm not super concerned about getting nothing from Monk 1 as an Armored Monk. I lose out on the BA attack, but that's ok with me. As for the unarmored defense, my armor handles that and Unarmed Fighting Style takes care of the loss of unarmed strike. And after that first level you start to gain a ton of things that make up for the one dead level. It is a meme-y build though, no doubt about that





With some quick math, a Fighter 1/Monk X that decides to go with boosting Dex/Wis instead of wearing armor and boosting Str/Wis is basically going to trade roughly +2 AC (from being able to use a shield) for an at-will BA attack, a speed boost, better initiative, and better ranged options (heck, if you pick up the Unarmed fighting style, you're looking at dealing more damage than the longsword-and-Unarmed build, since you can just fight empty-handed). Heck, the armored build is actually more ki-dependent than a normal Monk, since they don't have a free bonus action to fall back on when they're trying to conserve their go juice. Your big advantage is that you have set of magical items that let you massively boost your attack stat with no further personal investment, and that you have two extra "slots" for magical items.

Is playing an Armored Monk going to result in a TPK? Probably not, unless you're playing with diehard optimizers. Does it basically amount to jumping through a ton of hoops for minimal gain? Yeah, pretty much... unless you're playing with a group that's really generous with magical items.

Yeah, I do know what I'm going to be gaining and losing with a build like this. Thankfully I'm not super concerned about movement speed, and thanks to Tasha's and using a Half Elf I can still have a +1 to Initiative, which can be brought to +2 via an ASI or feats. That said, you are correct that this build will eat through Ki like crazy. Hence why I'm going Fighter 1 / Monk 19 to get as much Ki as I can.

As for the magic items, I don't see too much of an issue there. It's an AL build, meaning I can guarantee that I'll have a Flametongue, +3 Shield, Ring or Cloak of Protection, +2 Plate Armor, Belt of Giant's Strength, at least one or two ability score boosting books, and a few other handy items.

[Witty Username]

With the Unarmed Fighting style, it's a straight d6 for unarmed strike, better than a low level Monk, the same as a mid-level Monk, and only slightly worse than a higher level Monk.


In fact if you don't wield weapons and get the d8 you will be better at unarmed fighting than most monks. Martial adept for unarmed fighting is not all that dumb of an idea on the monk.