New GM help / advise

[Eboweth]

First time DM here, running Dragon of Icespire Peak. I need some advice in terms of the players.

So far we can a relative spread of classes / skills lined up (druid, bard, rogue and an unknown) but so far I have 3 players who have a criminalesque background of stealing things (albeit it different methods - bard / rogue duo using music as a distraction & druid taking things via animal companions)

While I don't necessarily have a problem with this backstory / archetype, it feels to much for 75% of the party to have that mindset.

Is there any advice / tips you can think of that might help with this before I start a game with a certainly of everything not nailed down being taken?

[sithlordnergal]

I'd say go with the flow and let them be thieves. But make sure you let them know up front that Ten Towns has rules against thievery, and if they get caught they will face the consequences.

[Ganryu]

Of all those... be most concerned of the druid. They low key have a near invincible skillset for theivery. Steal ****, morph into wild shape, walk away.

As a DM, you have a right to say "Guys, I don't want to DM a crime spree, can you not?" I've done similar a few times. Players don't tend to get mad if it's towards the group. THey're defensive as hell individually though.

[Willowhelm]

See if you can sell them on the long con (stealing the dragon’s hoard) being more worthwhile than petty theft that would just cause trouble.

You can either just let them get away with it (and stay on-book) or run with it and the consequences. Either will be fun and that’s the goal.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I kind of like the mindset and I've run with groups before who are morally ambiguous. I do think it's important for the group to have some reason not to (as you say) take everything that's not nailed down. That could be a limitation they put on themselves, like "Rob from the rich, give to the poor." or something you make clear, like "If you steal from these groups and get caught you'll have a hand chopped off", or perhaps the local thieves guild has a firm grip on what happens. It should be pretty easy to provide examples (warnings) in game of what can happen if the group doesn't want to limit themselves, and if they ignore those, then they'll have to live with the consequences.

[Eboweth]

Thanks for the tips so far. Of the players I have, the rogue / bard combo are regulars and the druid is a first timer like myself. Hopefully I can reign it in a bit from the more experienced players but I'll be sure to include a dragon horde (as the RAW don't appear to have one) and ensure the town master is stricter on thieving

[Willowhelm]

Thanks for the tips so far. Of the players I have, the rogue / bard combo are regulars and the druid is a first timer like myself. Hopefully I can reign it in a bit from the more experienced players but I'll be sure to include a dragon horde (as the RAW don't appear to have one) and ensure the town master is stricter on thieving

Just ‘cos it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it can’t affect their motivations. (Although, yes, depending on the players they may find the lack un-fun)

[Eboweth]

I suppose there may also be an opportunity to have the Zhentarim get involved if they do too much... Getting in the way of their business ventures and all thate (that or the Harpers)

[JLandan]

See if you can sell them on the long con (stealing the dragon’s hoard) being more worthwhile than petty theft that would just cause trouble.

You can either just let them get away with it (and stay on-book) or run with it and the consequences. Either will be fun and that’s the goal.

Terrific adventure hook! As an addition; let them be crooked, jail 'em, inside they meet an old geezer with a plan. This gives them a hook, exposition on the set-up, and a plan of action if they don't come up with their own. Furthermore, if they are emotionally tied to the geezer, he croaks in jail with a last wish to have the dragon's horde stolen. He could even have some reason other than greed to hate the dragon and want its horde removed, and impart that reason onto the PCs.

Much better idea than Dragon Heist.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Terrific adventure hook! As an addition; let them be crooked, jail 'em, inside they meet an old geezer with a plan. This gives them a hook, exposition on the set-up, and a plan of action if they don't come up with their own. Furthermore, if they are emotionally tied to the geezer, he croaks in jail with a last wish to have the dragon's horde stolen. He could even have some reason other than greed to hate the dragon and want its horde removed, and impart that reason onto the PCs.

Much better idea than Dragon Heist.

I like this sort of idea. Lean into the idea of them being 'professional' thieves so they do jobs that are planned and have purpose. That by itself might alleviate the chaotic random stealing.

[f5anor]

While I don't necessarily have a problem with this backstory / archetype, it feels to much for 75% of the party to have that mindset.

Is there any advice / tips you can think of that might help with this before I start a game with a certainly of everything not nailed down being taken?

In my mind its a far greater problem if the characters have nothing in common. A an overlap in mindset from the get go is a dream scenario in my book.

I would suggest to encourage their natural tendencies in order to help create a group identity. Go with the flow and organize some heists for them instead of trying to change their minds.

[JLandan]

I like this sort of idea. Lean into the idea of them being 'professional' thieves so they do jobs that are planned and have purpose. That by itself might alleviate the chaotic random stealing.

Or have them upgrade to real criminals from being lowly street punks as part of the adventure.

[JLandan]

In my mind its a far greater problem if the characters have nothing in common. A an overlap in mindset from the get go is a dream scenario in my book.

I would suggest to encourage their natural tendencies in order to help create a group identity. Go with the flow and organize some heists for them instead of trying to change their minds.

Totally agree

[5eNeedsDarksun]

One potential pitfall here is where the 4th party member fits into this. A character fully on board or gently trying to guide the rest towards more lawful choices would be ok, but a Devotion Paladin is probably a no-go.

[f5anor]

One potential pitfall here is where the 4th party member fits into this. A character fully on board or gently trying to guide the rest towards more lawful choices would be ok, but a Devotion Paladin is probably a no-go.

A low IQ Barbarian would be perfect here. The party could be an expanded version of Conan & Subotai, or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.

[Mastikator]

Ask the experienced players to help you keep the game from derailing, instead of feeling attacked for derailing the campaign they're deputized and feel ownership of the campaign not being derailed.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

If they get caught once they might be used as a mayor for a Suicide Squad type mission.

If they get caught stealing healing potions or whatever twice then real punishment.

Its important to tell the group your desires in a session 0 so everyone has fun.

[BaronCorvo]

I like the idea of a bunch of thieves excited to steal this dragon's hoard they keep hearing about and it turns out to be a dragon's horde instead. Like a horde of kobolds or zombies or something.

[hifidelity2]

Or have them upgrade to real criminals from being lowly street punks as part of the adventure.

+1 to this

Of course as they are thieves
- are they paying dues to the local guild(s) - if not will they get a visits from the local enforcers
- do they rob someone who has paid protection to the local guild

if moving up in the ranks
- which mini boss do they want to take turf from
- Has the boss got contacts - will they be framed & hunted

[Kurt Kurageous]

Don't.

You are a new DM. This is more advanced stuff.

I have been doing this for many years. I have had some characters who were sticky-fingered, but not a party of them. It is fun to run an evil campaign, but that takes a certain touch and experienced players to sustain.

If you have experienced players, I expect they are setting you up to run a non-serious game. Is that what you want to do? I personally don't like working hard to prep and have it all treated like a badly drawn cable network cartoon by my players.

When I do prep for that, I don't do the in-depth at all, I just imagine an unconnected loose series of events that may or may not be related. The players dictate with their responses what is and is not important. I don't worry about story or pacing at all. I don't even worry if the game continues. It's all a one-shot.

[Keravath]

I think you have a lot of good suggestions so far.

The concept of a group of thieves can work really well and be a lot of fun but I would have an out of character (OOC) chat with the players to discuss what kind of things they expect their characters might do. You can then go into some common knowledge (in the game world) about thievery, the punishments for thievery and some of the methods used to catch thieves in a D&D world. Quite a number of folks like to play thieves without really considering what it could mean in a game world with magic.

(I played Waterdeep Dragon Heist with a group of 6 people, 5 were members of the Zhentarim while I was a Harper spy keeping an eye on the group - it was a lot of fun to be honest).

However, you need to emphasize to the players the knowledge that their characters would know.

For example, the characters would KNOW whether there could be consequences for stealing, how much stealing and from who - taking a loaf of bread might be low risk but taking the valuable jeweled necklace from a wealthy merchant could be an issue.

If the characters stole something truly valuable from someone with resources then that NPC could hire bounty hunters and the magical help required to find the item and eliminate the thieves.

Divination spells like Divination, Commune, Scrying, Locate Object, Locate Creature could all potentially be used to track down a thief or the stolen item if it is important enough (Scrying is particularly effective if traces of blood/hair or clothing could be found from one of thieves).

Although the thieves will likely not know the specifics they will have heard of stories of other thieves being caught and dealt with which might moderate their choices.

----

However, you are playing DoIP so other than the town of Phandelin, the characters are probably ok to try taking anything they like from most of the other encounters - so if you can guide them into stealing/recovering treasure from dungeons then it could work out fine.

Some comments on the module ...

I've run DoIP and it was generally well received but there are a few things to keep an eye on.

Some of the encounters for level 1s can be deadly if the party chooses to do the wrong thing.
- Fighting the Manticore rather than convincing it/bribing it
- Melee combat against the oozes - ranged works wonderfully but the characters may not recognize the risk of engaging in melee
- At higher level - Iron Toe mine will likely be a TPK if the party decides to fight unless the party has magical weapons. It can be resolved diplomatically but some groups aren't good with diplomacy. The wererats are immune to damage from non-magical weapons and there is a good chance the party will not know that they are wererats before attacking. There are only a few magical weapons in the game and the party may or may not go to the places required and might or might not find them even when there.

However, at the end of the module - by the time the party reaches level 6 for the Cryovain encounter - it can be too easy. I had a party of 5 level 6 characters by the final encounter and if I had used a young white dragon it would have died in 2 rounds of combat. I swapped in a young blue dragon for my group and the balance worked out better and made for a bit more epic final battle.

In addition, there is the lack of a treasure hoard for the dragon in the module. This can also contribute to a less than successful feeling at the end - so you might want to add some treasure in chests or other containers on the roof of the castle (you can't put it inside because the characters would then find the hoard before the dragon and that is something a dragon wouldn't do :) ).

Finally, a person on the internet revised the lore of the module which tied the whole thing together in a much better way (in my opinion) than it is originally written. The revisions link the orcs, the dragon and the Anchorites of Talos into a single unified plot line that I think is really quite good while keeping the actual changes quite small. It is worth reading even if you use all, some or none of the suggestions.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/comments/e77dmi/dragon_of_icespire_peak_revised/

[Corran]

First time DM here, running Dragon of Icespire Peak. I need some advice in terms of the players.

So far we can a relative spread of classes / skills lined up (druid, bard, rogue and an unknown) but so far I have 3 players who have a criminalesque background of stealing things (albeit it different methods - bard / rogue duo using music as a distraction & druid taking things via animal companions)

While I don't necessarily have a problem with this backstory / archetype, it feels to much for 75% of the party to have that mindset.

Is there any advice / tips you can think of that might help with this before I start a game with a certainly of everything not nailed down being taken?
From what I've seen, situations like this one can create time management issues. For example, if 3 out of your 4 players want to spend 3 hours in the session to do some stealing, the 4th player might get bored if they are not very into it. Heck, you might get borded. You play too. You probably designed a cool dungeon and the players take too long to get there cause they are spending hours in the town trying to steal stuff. If such a problem exists for your table, then you need to find the right balance. Remember, you control the pace of the game. They want to throw a street performance with one of them pickpocketing the audience? You can rp the whole scene in however much detail you want, or you can throw some dice and come up with a result (eg you stole X amount of gold). But you have to find common ground for everyone, so you have a good idea when and how much you are going to speed things up. PS: If your players ignore stuff you have planned because they are doing their own bit (so called going off the rails), I'd say let them and try to improvise how your game world reacts to what your PC's are doing. Nothing you plan really goes to waste, you can always use that dungeon your players didn't go to in some other session (as a supposedly completelly different dungeon), or in your next campaign.

The second problem that might occur in a situation like the one you describe, has to do about how you are handling consequences. If the consequences are too bad (eg multiple character deaths/imprisonments), players wont have fun. If the consequences are very light, the world will start losing appeal as it will be too easy/unrealistic. I cannot say about your players, but I am having fun when my choices can shape the outcome (saying "can" because dice can make a good idea fail and a bad one succeed; they have that power; though they dont have to be all powerful, an idea could in fact be that good that it succeeds without having toroll, or it could be so horrible that it fails without rolling. You are the one calling, or not calling, for rolls). How to handle consequences? You have to stay true to the world you created. If in town X, thivery is a crime, and it is punished with jail time, then that's what happens to a PC that gets caught (bribes and escapes can also be a thing too of course). But dont be afraid to throw bad consequences at your players should they earn them. When there is a chance for them to fail, allow them to fail. To spare yourself any unwelcome drama, you can always communicate it before hand. Say they want to walk into the throne room and steal the king's crown from his head while all his invincible guards of doom are around him. Let them. But make sure they know out of character that in your game world this is probably a very bad idea and also prompt them to find in character what failing their task might mean for their characters (execution, jail time, being part of some suicide squad the king wants to use for some hopeless adventure, whatever makes sense in the game world).

[Burley]

It's only a matter of time until they steal the wrong thing and/or steal from the wrong person. Maybe they steal:
a cursed object that attracts nightmares
the phylactery of a disguised lich who was in town purchasing reagents
the key to Voltron

If they all wanna be pickpockets and scoundrels, ok. Use that to introduce your plot hooks. My word of caution: accept that the players want to steal stuff and don't seek to just punish them (town guards, prison, etc). Try to reward them for their choices with interesting adventures.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

A low IQ Barbarian would be perfect here. The party could be an expanded version of Conan & Subotai, or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.

I was thinking of something like a Chaotic Good Trickery Cleric. Someone who is onboard, but has a clear moral compass to steer the rest of the group if they need it. Inspiration might be Friar Tuck from Robin Hood.

[Ganryu]

Ask the experienced players to help you keep the game from derailing, instead of feeling attacked for derailing the campaign they're deputized and feel ownership of the campaign not being derailed.

This. I love this, best way to keep them in line is to ask them to keep themselves in line. Things will get hectic otherwise.

Good suggestion.

[Eboweth]

Thanks everyone for the replies, it's given me lots to think about.

I actually had another question, and sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, but having run through everyone's characters I'm not sure if I need to change up any of the standard encounters in the module?

They've decided to run with a:

Bard, Artificer, Druid & Rogue

While I think it's great it's a good split of skills, I wonder if a party of D8 hit dice needs encounters tweaked or if they should just be run as written?

I'm just not sure if they are too squishy or to just run with it?

Further suggestions / thoughts would be amazing :)

[f5anor]

I'm just not sure if they are too squishy or to just run with it?

Further suggestions / thoughts would be amazing :)

Similarly as to my answer to your original question, my answer here would be that you should both let players make their own decisions and just ensure that the campaign world is stable, fair and consistent.

The amount or strength of enemies guarding a dungeon, should not be related to the strength of the party, but only related to the back story and the needs/capabilities for the defense of this place by the BBEG.

Its up to the players to devise a strategy that matches their strengths to defeat these enemies.

If they have no martials and still decide to waltz in in broad daylight, well, its their funeral. If they use the Druid to produce minions that will acts as tanks, good for them, if they decide to approach the mission as a heist, great. In any case, let them solve it. This is how players have fun at the end of the day.

[da newt]

With that sort of party composition it will all depend on the skill of the players.

If they fight like they are all barbarians it will not go well, but if they fight like a team of bard/rogue/artificer/druid they should be just fine. They have quite a bit of healing, stealth, ranged, buffs, charisma, control, and artificers and druids can tank with the best of them if they choose to.

Run it as is and see how it goes, then you can adjust if needed.

[Keravath]

Thanks everyone for the replies, it's given me lots to think about.

I actually had another question, and sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, but having run through everyone's characters I'm not sure if I need to change up any of the standard encounters in the module?

They've decided to run with a:

Bard, Artificer, Druid & Rogue

While I think it's great it's a good split of skills, I wonder if a party of D8 hit dice needs encounters tweaked or if they should just be run as written?

I'm just not sure if they are too squishy or to just run with it?

Further suggestions / thoughts would be amazing :)

In general, that party composition will be fine for most activities though it may depend on which sub-classes are chosen. Three out of the four have access to healing magic. Depending on which type of bard, artificer and druid, these could also be melee oriented or otherwise decently armored.

The difference between d8 and d10 classes at first level is 2 hit points and the difference only increases by 1 hit point/level after that. So the difference for 5th level characters with the same con is only 6 hit points - less than the typical damage of one attack by an opponent at that level.

The "squishiness" of the party will depend more on the experience of the players and the sub-classes chosen. Swords bard, Battlesmith and Moon Druid might be quite different from Lore bard, Alchemist, and Land Druid.

[JLandan]

Thanks everyone for the replies, it's given me lots to think about.

I actually had another question, and sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, but having run through everyone's characters I'm not sure if I need to change up any of the standard encounters in the module?

They've decided to run with a:

Bard, Artificer, Druid & Rogue

While I think it's great it's a good split of skills, I wonder if a party of D8 hit dice needs encounters tweaked or if they should just be run as written?


I'm just not sure if they are too squishy or to just run with it?

Further suggestions / thoughts would be amazing :)

In a heist movie, everyone's rogues. But there's always a tech guy (artificer) and a face guy (bard). The druid being thievy has to have a good story, he's the one out-of-place (also common in heist movies)

While they seem weak in stand-up fighting, they all have weapon and armor profs, and three are casters. And if you run the adventure as a heist, it should be skill heavy rather than combat heavy. I think it's a good mix.