Zero Bab Challenge

[Seward]

Once, in a Living Greyhawk regional special adventure (a one-off for a convention) a level 2 party encountered a CR10 threat. We were terrified. Until he carefully drew his weapon, then moved forward...and failed to attack because his BAB was still zero. Later on we were treated to such dire threats as a single magic missile (with 2 points warmage edge) and his mighty 1-attack full attack without power attack (bab 0...) with attack mod of about +5.

A player in the game actually had a character like this. I encountered him around level 8. Still zero bab, but actually still able to contribute (skillmonkey+support spells, but also pretty potent emergency actions he could occasionally pull off via odd mixes of abilities and probably a spot of UMD on occasion). I don't know if he inspired the boss, or the reverse.

What I'm looking for is builds that can't ever reach above BAB0 but are convincingly useful for a party both in and out of combat as high as you can go. While the boss above was entirely core+complete classes (I think he was a monk1/cleric1/wizard1/sorcerer1/monk1/rogue1/scout1/warmage1/marshall1 or something similar) PRCs are fine if you can qualify with zero bab. This should mean some kind of support caster build is possible, and folks here are creative enough that maybe somebody can show off a primary caster build (a martial is unlikely with bab0, but somebody who figures out how to cast divine power could perhaps do it as an occasional tactic. Prove me wrong). A variant class is the same as its parent class (you can't do both Cloistered Cleric and Cleric, etc)

Because of this, anything in the build is pretty much a 1 level dip, and only in a class that doesn't offer any BAB. I'm not restricting any sources, but as this is about classes, please don't make the build dependent on any gear. 28 point buy. Also for similar reasons stick to LA+0, no templates unless LA+0, no purchasing feats with cash, no flaws, etc. You get racial feats, L1 feat, bonus feats and the usual feat-three levels. Gestalt classes are only allowed if the entire build consists of Gestalt classes (I'm curious, but don't want to mix and match that with a normal build and it avoids things like rogue-sorcerer1/rogue1/sorcerer1 level 3 build issues. Odd are without spellcasting-advancing-prcs this won't amount to much but what can be done to make it work?)

This isn't anything like the level of an Iron Chef type competition - just post a stub (race, levels and details on feats/class/racial abilities you think are important) and some explanation of why it works. If you actually get into the teens with something viable, it would be good to explain how it contributes at breakpoints like L5, L10 etc unless it's somehow not really changing. A good build should have something to offer a party at any level, in spite of its 0 bab quirk. Adding more detail, pictures, names, stories etc is fine, but spoiler it so clean builds are easy to read. If you've got our attention we'll want to read that other stuff too.

The point here is to just find some ideas that might work in a real game, where your party members and/or GM wouldn't want to beat you over the head with a rulebook for doing something so high concept.

I'm fine with folks building off other folks ideas, etc, so if you don't want folks to swipe your ideas and mutate them, please indicate that in your post. I'll be giving it a try myself. I have a couple ideas of how to approach it, but they're not ready for posting yet.

[Doctor Despair]

May I offer levels 1 - 5 of my "Know It All" build in my sig for consideration?



http://srd.dndtools.org/srd/resource/images/classes/101120.jpg





Magic-Blooded
Human







Stat
Array
After Racial/ Template Modifiers
4th
8th
12th
16th
20th
Final


Str
8
8
-
-
-
-
+1
9


Dex
8
8
-
-
-
-
-
8


Con
8
8
-
-
-
-
-
8


Int
18
18
+1
+1
-
-
-
20


Wis
14
12
-
-
-
-
-
12


Cha
16
18


+1
+1
-
20





HD
Class
BAB
Base Fort Save
Base Ref Save
Base Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1
Bardic Sage
+0
+0
+0
+2
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 4, Diplomacy 4, Listen 4, Perform 4, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4 44
Favored, Skill Focus: Diplomacy
Bardic music (1 use, 3 rounds), bardic knowledge +3, countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1; membership in League of Eyes, bonus 0 divination known


2
Archivist
+0
+2
+0
+4
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 5, Diplomacy 4, Listen 5, Perform 4, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4, Collector of Stories 9
Scribe Scroll
Dark knowledge (tactics) 3/day


3
Dragonfire Adept
+0
+4
+0
+6
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 6, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 3, Listen 5, Perform 4, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4, Collector of Stories 9
Knowledge Devotion, Dragontouched
Breath weapon 1d6, least invocations (Draconic Knowledge)


4
Marshal
+0
+6
+0
+8
Knowledge (Arcana) 8, Knowledge (Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes) 7, Knowledge (Religion) 6, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 5, Perform 7, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4, Collector of Stories 9
Primary Contact
Minor aura (Motivate Intelligence)


5
Urban Savant
+0
+6
+2
+10
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 8, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 5, Perform 7, Sense Motive 7, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories 11

Urban savvy (strengths)





Key Details and Justification for Class Choices


We start out as a bardic sage for the bardic music feature and the skill points. Since we can make the knowledge check to find them, our membership in the League of Eyes is in our background to save on adventuring time. Taking 10 on our knowledge check, we have 18 on any topic. This is functional as any level 1 bard is. We can Inspire Courage to contribute meaningfully to combat, and that will help compensate for our mediocre strength. Our Knowledges offer some out-of-combat utility, and we can also function quite well as party face.


Our dip into Archivist gives us access to new spells, yes, but also Dark Knowledge. Now, we can take 10 to hit an automatic 19 for the purposes of our Dark Knowledge, so depending on the enemy, we can now grant +2att/+1dmg when combined with our Inspire Courage. We can also start gathering masterwork tools to bump our knowledges by another +2. Our flashcard booklet will grow page by page!



Our dip into Dragonfire Adept pumps out knowledges up to an automatic 26, or 28 when combined with our masterwork tools. We can now grant +3att/+1dmg to our party and spew our dragonbreath from the backline; we don't need to backline though, because our Knowledge Devotion will grant us an additional +3 to attack and damage. We may not have BAB, and we may have a -1 strength modifier, but we will still have a +5att/+3dmg at level 3 as if we were a 20 strength character with medium BAB progression. You can afford a level-1 Pearl of Power which, while it will be relevant later, is still very useful here.


With our dip in Marshal, we are now at the tail end of our "early game" where we smash face (because knowledge is power). We can now motivate intelligence to the rest of our party, but more notably ourselves, bringing our take-10 roll up to 33. Collector of Stories will bump us up to 38, too, so our melee bumps up to +8att/+5dmg (and our party-wide buffs are now up to +4att/+1dmg, and granting +4 to party int-based checks and skills). Fortunately, Marshal marks the end of our time as a martial character.


Finally, we enter Urban Savant and begin our life as a walking encyclopedia, able to provide BAB/AC/combat feats/special attacks/options. We can afford a +2 cha or int item, too. We can't take 10 on our Urban Savant knowledge checks, but our results should be between 31-50, so there isn't a risk of failure on the DC. This is also sufficient such that, if we take 10 (using Guidance of the Avatar/Lore of the Gods with Versatile Spellcaster and our Pearl of Power), we can hit almost any listed knowledge-check in the game. We also advance our spellcasting at long last.

with a DC20 arcana check; a DC29 tells us exactly how they are disguised. This is the closest to Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis most PCs will get to.[/td]
[/tr]

[Thurbane]

There's a couple of PrCs that don't advance BAB: Survivor and War Hulk...although War Hulk requires BAB +5, so not much use.

You could probably do a decent skillmonkey build: Rogue 1/Scout1/Ninja 1/Bard 1 etc.

[Lord Foul]

well, I'd definitely start with Dragon shaman and marshal, maybe bard too. going for a variety of support auras. Warlock level 1 would also give a touch attack at range plus at will spell likes such as speaking to animals. warlock also provides a good use of your feats, giving you more spell likes and skill bonuses

[loky1109]

Early entry in spellcasting PrC can help you have zero BAB and good spellcasting.

[Seward]

May I offer levels 1 - 5 of my "Know It All" build in my sig for consideration?




OK that's pretty cool. Note that nearly all caster level advancing prcs have entry requirements that limit them to a 6th level start (skills, sometimes too many feats, etc). Which means the first 5 levels matter a lot for this exercise. You could take this as a foundation and I'm pretty sure I could, for example, advance bard or archivist casting on a level-for-level basis after this pretty much forever, with practiced spellcaster at 6 to keep caster levels in line. You'd be way behind a primary caster but well chosen low level buffs might keep your actions in combat still highly effective, and your hour/level buffs lasting all day with lesser rods of extend, and you're a solid "know-it-all" and decent face out of combat all the way to level 20 with this foundation.

This was the sort of thing I was hoping for. Thank you! To fit my 28 point build it'd have to lose 4 points of attributes, but I don't think that changes the outcome much.


well, I'd definitely start with Dragon shaman and marshal, maybe bard too. going for a variety of support auras. Warlock level 1 would also give a touch attack at range plus at will spell likes such as speaking to animals. warlock also provides a good use of your feats, giving you more spell likes and skill bonuses

How would you allocate stats for this? I assume a high charisma, but touch attacks and such imply dex, everybody needs con etc. What race do you think would work well?


Early entry in spellcasting PrC can help you have zero BAB and good spellcasting.

Yup, that's basically easy mode. Although how you get there and what you do to build on it is still interesting to me.


There's a couple of PrCs that don't advance BAB: Survivor and War Hulk...although War Hulk requires BAB +5, so not much use.

You could probably do a decent skillmonkey build: Rogue 1/Scout1/Ninja 1/Bard 1 etc.

War Hulk is a nonstarter from bab requirement. Survivor isn't a bad supplement to a skillmonkey build of the sort you describe. It adds solid defensive class features that you normally need a bab to get (rogue 2, barbarian 2 etc) and the later ones are more like "barbarian10/rogue10". Pretty good for a 5 lvl prc. The primary problem with such a build is contributing in combat. After level 4 or so you'd pretty much need to start by UMDing a divine power scroll to do much of anything meaningful (or alternately wands, bard scrolls+practiced spellcaster to at least bust out their L2 options etc)

I guess you could advance sneak attack pretty effectively if you worked at it, plus a d6 of skirmish and sudden strike where it works. There are a lot of classes that are 0 bab that advance sneak. Combine that with touch-attack ray from one of your baby casting classes pumped up a bit with feats and you aren't a strong contributor, but you might do enough damage to matter and your out of combat utility would be quite high.
=============================


My builds, just to make it extra hard, will be "Living Greyhawk Year 8 Legal" although I will include any prc or class I ever saw played (to get access you often had to play and succeed at specific adventures) in the mix, and might include some I saw NPCs have if I really need to. This means a bunch of stuff is off the table because it was never allowed or arrived so late it was never brought into the campaign, not even for the finale's right before Hasbro pulled the plug on 3.5. In particular most Dragon stuff, BOVD/BOED, anything psionic, from Unearthed Arcana, Tome of Battle or Faerun specific (Incantatrix, as an example, or Red Mage) won't make it in, and even PHB2/Complete Champion/stuff of similar vintage will be a last resort, as those only occurred midway through the final year and you had to get pretty lucky and retrain to make use of them.

Also early entry to PRCs really didn't happen in LG. They tended to ban all of that and anything that wasn't banned but required any kind of GM ruling risked your character being nixed at a given table, so most players didn't push anything controversial in the build itself (now, how things like spells or maneuvers worked at the table...that was "table variation" and you lived with it or just refrained from using something problematic with a particular GM for one adventure)

I still think I can do something interesting. But yeah, I'm looking at some pretty obscure stuff (we did have some old 3.0 splatbook classes that never updated, for example, from older characters in the campaign who played early adventures, and many of the miniatures handbook classes were legal). I'll probably try for one focused mainly on arcane and one focused mainly on divine, just to see how that shakes out.

Edit - I get some slack after level 15, when the rules for class, spell and item access were pretty much waived for rare higher level 16-20 tier play. Which is good, because looking at how my first effort is turning out, finding 15 prc levels that advance spellcasting without advancing bab is tough unless you want to spend every feat just on prereqs.
Here's the start of my first effort. I've got reasons for every choice but no time to explain them right now.


Ilsa from Frozen, basically. Maybe reskinned a bit as a murder hobo instead of an orphaned princess.

28 point buy, CG, Favored Soul Deity is Telchur (kid of Procan, god of Winter)
Human Str 8, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha14 statbumps to int, boost con/cha/int with items
Normal vest of resistance and item slots assumed, Haversack pretty early, otherwise nothing unusual.

Lesser Metamagic rods (extend, empower, quicken) will also arrive reasonably early as they seem affordable, with L4-6 rods arriving later.

All PRCs advance wizard
1 Warmage Snowcasting, Frozen Spell
2 Beguiler Trapfinding
3 Wizard Practiced Spellcaster Wizard (generalist wizard, rat familiar)
4 Favored Soul L0: cr water, cure minor, guidance, purify fd dr, L1 endure elements, resurgence, Deathwatch
5 Rogue Sneak attack 1d6 (and skill points I'll need later)

This character wants an offensive option, and opens with warmage, 1d3+4 rays and more importantly 1d4+5 magic missiles. If she can get a cold environment and some snow, she can fire 2 magic missiles with frostcasting. Long term, when expecting trouble she'll have deathwatch running and know when somebody is almost dead, using an action to finish them off with basically worthless Warmage slots. In the baby levels, this provides her offense.

Beguiler is obvious. Great utility spells and useful if low duration cantrips that remain useful forever (obscuring mist, detect secret doors, even disguise self or occasionally charm person). Trapfinding combined with search and disable device, both int-based provide some out of combat utility. In baby levels it is the heavy hitter with sleep and color spray, when fighting living enemies.

Wizard is the long term engine, and gets the practiced spellcaster feat, with a rat familiar to provide some of the only fort save defense the build will ever get. Initially, the focus is more on utility, but as higher level spell slots arrive the frostcasting will become more important. Especially important will be the humble prestidigitation spell.

Favored Soul is a blatant attempt to get the entire cleric spell list for scrolls/wands without fussing with UMD and using charisma as the gating casting attribute. None of its spells have saving throws, so the low wisdom is irrelevant. Its spells free up other slots mostly, the main impact is from wands and low level scrolls. Plus a prc needs a divine caster level later.

Rogue - it qualifies me for arcane trickster and I had a hole in my mid-levels where I didn't qualify for anything else Living Greyhawk legal. It also helps with skill points for unseen seer, for advancing trapfinding and in general makes me feel better about taking unseen seer at all, as I can use its L1 ability. However with zero bab, sneak attack isn't likely unless truestrike is involved somehow. Still, 3d6 eventual sneak attack is 3d6 when truestrike is used.


6 Frost Mage Skill Focus Kn Religion Natural Armor+1, not affected by cold environments
7 Divine Oracle Oracle Domain (+2 caster level divination)
8 Ruathar Longsword proficiency, maybe boots of elvenkind for the gift reflex save+2, d6 hit die
9 Unseen Seer Piercing Cold Sneak Attack 2d6
10 Arcane Trickster ranged legerdemain 1/d, sneak attack 3d6 reflex save+2 d6 hit die

These are the only 5 classes that can bridge this gap. Frost mage needs those 2 early feats, divine Oracle needs the level 6 feat, Ruathar just needs skill points, and provides some for Unseen Seer which needs more. Four classes that don't require more than L1 casting also get you to L3 spells, which opens up Arcane Trickster via Rogue+Unseen Seer, and later Geometer at 11.

This period is pure support mage beyond finishing off weakened enemies. Investing some WBL in a lesser rod of empower or maximize might keep you going, since nothing is wrong with caster level (it is full, and full+2 when frost feats apply) and an empowered fireball or maximized snowcast-in-cold-weather scorching ray boosted to L11 have pretty serious punch in this period.

At minimum in this period the character has a haversack or bag of holding with snow in it. When she has a lot of time, she might be able to cool the air around herself enough with prestidigitation to trigger her frost magic. With L3 spell slots she can at level 10 drop temperature two bands, enough to start cooking that magic, but lacks spell slots to do much when her spells are capped at 10d6 without rods.


11 Geometer Glyph of Warding, draw spellglyph
12 Fatespinner Sculpt Spell, Spin Fate1
13 Loremaster Secret = Feat = Cold Spell Specialization
14 Sacred Exorcist Turn Undead, d8 hit die
15 Wayfarer Guide Divine Spellpower increased capacity


Again we are chasing just enough requirements to qualify for just one more PRC.
Geometer gets you to L4 spell slots, L12 feat gets the third metamagic/crafting feat needed for Loremaster.
Loremaster gets you L5 spells, and you take Dismissal and Teleport as a spell
Wayfarer Guide and Sacred Exorcist you can take in either order.

At L12, you can sculpt prestidigitation and chill the air in a 10' bubble around you (it is the 20' sphere, but limited by prestidigitation's 10' range) and with only a little preparation always have access to frostcasting, at least if you first control temp as much as you can first to get the baseline pretty low.

Divine spellpower lets you crank caster levels even higher, and full metamagic rods combined with L4-5 slots open up some more potent options. You never abandon being primarily a support spellcaster, focusing on buffs and lower level battlefield control that just works without saving throws, but you reserve some spell slots for boom, probably tied to how many rods you own, and are more likely to open up with said boom if you've got frost feats online with low temperatures.


16 Dwoemerkeeper Spell Mantle - Cone of Cold
17 Sea Witch Curse of the Sea Witch 1/d, strong fort save+2
18 Paragnostic Apostle Energy Substitution (cold), Energy Supremacy (Cold), Lore
19 Elemental Savant Elemental Specialty (water, cold)
20 Ultimate Magus CL+1 to all classes, Beguiler advances to L2


In Living Greyhawk many play restrictions on PRC, spell and item access are relaxed once you retire from normal play, but tier 18 adventures existed, rare but there were some opportunities. Of the 5 PRCs here, only Elemental Savant was normally available (which is why I didn't take Ultimate Magus back at level 5). I actually like the abilities all of these provide, although Elemental Savant forcing all elements to cold means the L21 feat probably needs to be Piercing Cold.

You end with level 15 slots, level 20 caster level (and boosted more with frost feats, divine oracle when doing divination and with divine spellpower a few times a day).

I think Elsa would be a frustrated blaster, forced normally into supporting other party members but occasionally opening up frost mayhem to her great satisfaction. I was also happy that she did manage to get high enough spellcasting to cast Ice Castle, because, you know, Elsa.


Basically your utility/support arcane caster with access to several spell lists via wands/low level scrolls but a fairly potent punch, at least when using cold using feats and caster level boosts to compensate for lower tier and fewer spell slots. She just wanted a direct damage option, and there are several approaches as she levels.

Of note are saving throws, which tend to be extreme in these kinds of builds. Her will save rapidly goes to "fail on a natural 1" by level 10. Her other saves are decent in early levels, then kind of fade down to maybe a bit ahead of where a typical "bad save wizard" type will be by level 20, since they don't really progress at all beyond item boosts. Her hitpoints are a little better than a wizard, but only a little. Snowcasting needs 13 con, so a 14 con start was needed.

I'll have notes/explanations/how to qualify for all that at L5/10/15/20 later, but need to do chores now.



Final edit was 8PM 1/22/2022, adding milestone discussion