Charger + Mobile?

[Greywander]

I thinking back to a tank build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637779-Steel-Commanders-Artificer-riding-a-Paladin-(oh-yeah-it-s-blitzkrieg-time!)) (as in, the armored fighting vehicle) that I'd come up with. For a quick refresher, it's an an Artillerist artificer riding a warforged paladin.

Anyway, one of the qualities of tanks was their speed and their ability to just ignore things like barbed wire and other types of difficult terrain. I was thinking about how I might be able achieve this on a paladin, and I know the Mobile feat allows you to ignore difficult terrain when you Dash, but I wouldn't want to give up all my attacks just to ignore difficult terrain. I was thinking about doing a rewrite of the Charger feat to allow you to make one attack as a bonus action when you Dash, but it actually already does that!

I'll be honest, though, I can see why most people skip over Charger when looking for good feats. I feel like this should either be a half feat, or the bonus for moving 10 feet in a straight line before attacking/shoving should apply to any attack (but only once per turn), and not just to the special BA attack the feat grants you.

Anyway, I'm curious what people think of this feat combo (Charger + Mobile). Have you ever used it before? Is it worth two feats? Have you ever used Charger by itself?

[JonBeowulf]

I've never liked Charger as written. I'd prefer a simple "you can dash as a bonus action" and ignore everything else. I mean, charger right? You should be able to rush in and make a difference. Not rush in and make one attack with a conditional bonus.

I've never bothered to houserule it, though, because none of my players asked.

For OP, I think modified Charger + Mobile would be great! Mobile is already top 3 for me and fixing Charger makes it worthwhile.

[Angelalex242]

Ya know...maybe if Charger did a Juggernaut type thing.

"While charging, you gain resistance to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage till the end of your next turn. In addition, you can make your attack and keep going by the target, and this doesn't provoke"

[Tanarii]

One thing this combo gives you is the ability to charge in against a single target, then retreat without provoking an OA from the target.

[f5anor]

I'm curious what people think of this feat combo (Charger + Mobile). Have you ever used it before? Is it worth two feats? Have you ever used Charger by itself?

Purely from the point of view or action economy, Polearm Master will give you a bonus action attack every round, and you can also shove with it. There is no need to charge anyone for it. It also gives you opportunity attacks!

The only plus you have with Charger is the extra damage. However, I don’t think this is such a big deal, especially since you only get it when charging.

I am not sure I get the value of Mobile. Maybe go for Wood Elf and get 5 feet movement more without a feat? Also did you think about Oath or Glory? These Paladins come with extra movement as part of Aura of Alacrity.

[Angelalex242]

Mobile makes monks happy, as they now don't need ki points to disengage.

[Greywander]

I am not sure I get the value of Mobile.
Mobile allows you to ignore difficult terrain, but only when you Dash. Charger allows you to Dash and still make one attack. The purpose of combining these two is specifically to ignore difficult terrain by Dashing while still getting an attack in. It's not just the raw speed buff, it's the ignoring difficult terrain.

I can't help but think you'd be better off just dipping two levels into rogue for a BA Dash, but that would set your main class progression back pretty far, and you'd never be able to get the capstone (sans houserules that allow more than 20 class levels). But in addition to a BA Dash, you'd also get expertise (e.g. for grappling/shoving) and a small amount of Sneak Attack damage (and if someone is riding you, then you always fulfill the requirements for Sneak Attack, so long as you're using a finesse weapon), so it's a pretty decent trade.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Charger + Mobile isn't terrible, so if it fits the flavor you're going for, then go for it, but it's definitely subpar. TBH, on a paladin specifically, you're probably better off taking Mounted Combatant and using Find Greater Steed to get a pegasus. Two feats for a 40 foot walk speed and a BA attack after Dashing vs. one feat for 90 foot fly speed that still allows you to take an action. And difficult terrain doesn't typically extend into the sky anyway (though it could, e.g. strong winds, heavy rain, etc.).

For the specific build I had in mind (the tank build), it wouldn't fit the flavor to have the paladin riding a mount (though this could potentially be refluffed into something that fits), and getting both Charger and Mobile puts significant strain on my feat budget. I do have the advantage that an artificer is required as part of the build, so I'd have guarantied access to Gauntlets of Ogre Power/Belt of Giant's Strength, and so could comfortably leave my STR at 16 (or less!) without needing to spend an ASI on it. But still, I'd like core of the build to come online as early as possible, and I also don't want to delay bumping CHA.

If you tweak Charger so that the +5 damage bonus applies to any attack (but only once per turn) and not just the BA attack when you Dash, then it starts to look a bit more appealing. When you don't need to Dash, you can just back up and ram an enemy every turn to get the bonus damage. Since paladins have two attacks, with Mobile you can make one attack, then back up and ram with your second attack without provoking an OA. There are situations where this becomes tricky, e.g. when engaged with more than one enemy, or when in tight quarters where you don't have the space to run 10 feet in a straight line, but you'd still get a lot of mileage out of it the rest of the time. There's still the feat budget issue, though...

Perhaps I should give up on this. It's not like the artificer needs to be in melee, though that does allow them to make use of the flamethrower cannon (after 15th level when you can have two cannons; the protector cannon is too good not to use). They could put Thunderwave in their spell-storing item, but Shatter is probably a better choice if you want a blast spell, and that's assuming there isn't another spell they'd rather be casting. Obviously, the paladin wants to be in melee, but not any more so than any other paladin. Probably the best option is to go for some kind of homebrew Find Greater Steed mount, something with a high land speed and the ability to ignore difficult terrain (which honestly is still mostly worse than a pegasus, unless it's faster than 90 feet), perhaps fluffing it as some kind of leg upgrade.

[Gurgeh]

Purely from the point of view or action economy, Polearm Master will give you a bonus action attack every round, and you can also shove with it. There is no need to charge anyone for it. It also gives you opportunity attacks!
You cannot use Polearm Master's bonus action attack to shove: shoves and grapples can only be substituted for attacks that are made as part of the attack action.

Bonus action shoves or grapples are only possible with feats or class features that explictly allow them (i.e., charger, shield master, tavern brawler).

[f5anor]

Mobile allows you to ignore difficult terrain, but only when you Dash. Charger allows you to Dash and still make one attack. The purpose of combining these two is specifically to ignore difficult terrain by Dashing while still getting an attack in. It's not just the raw speed buff, it's the ignoring difficult terrain.

Yeah, but how often do you need to go 60 feet over difficult terrain an then attack?

Difficult terrain is not that common in official dungeon material (YMMV with homebrew material of course), and charging ahead so far away from your party just opens you up to flanking in a very bad way.

If you are so desperate to make some damage while you take your normal 30 feet movement towards your target, you can always use a ranged or thrown weapon, e.g. spears/javelins. This would give you more attacks, and would prevent you from being exposed to flanking.

Even if you do not play with flanking rules, surely not being surrounded by enemies is preferable, no?

[f5anor]

You cannot use Polearm Master's bonus action attack to shove: shoves and grapples can only be substituted for attacks that are made as part of the attack action.

Bonus action shoves or grapples are only possible with feats or class features that explictly allow them (i.e., charger, shield master, tavern brawler).

Thanks! Good clarification. Indeed PAM does not allow to take the bonus action attack, if you do not take the attack action. So, you cannot use your action to dash and then take a bonus action attack.

Also Shove states: Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.

So assuming a martial with Extra Attack (reasonable to assume you would take PAM before level 5), you will have a total of 3 attacks at your disposal, and 2 of which are available for shoving. So while you cannot use specifically the bonus action attack for shoving, I dont see this as a significant limitation really.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, but how often do you need to go 60 feet over difficult terrain an then attack?

Difficult terrain is not that common in official dungeon material (YMMV with homebrew material of course), and charging ahead so far away from your party just opens you up to flanking in a very bad way.
It also allow ou to charge up to 30ft over difficult terrain, and then retreat back to your starting position, without provoking an OA from the target. Which is great if you started in cover.

[f5anor]

It also allow ou to charge up to 30ft over difficult terrain, and then retreat back to your starting position, without provoking an OA from the target. Which is great if you started in cover.

Got it. I did not expect this maneuver, I have to admit, but still, what is the point?

In this case you get only one melee attack, instead of 2/3 ranged ones.

[stoutstien]

Got it. I did not expect this maneuver, I have to admit, but still, what is the point?

In this case you get only one melee attack, instead of 2/3 ranged ones.

Depends on what you are adding to that attack. Not many ways to probe at range and if the DT is working against the enemies as well it can give your side some extra breathing space. If you have a party that likes to use DT then this could work. I'd rather just use the jumping rules but some don't like that aesthetic.

[Tanarii]

Got it. I did not expect this maneuver, I have to admit, but still, what is the point?

In this case you get only one melee attack, instead of 2/3 ranged ones.
Depends on the weapon being used by the Paladin, but one 2H weapon attack at +5 with a smite is more damage than 2 javelins. Even without a smite spending a slot it's more when you get improved smite.

[TIPOT]

It also allow ou to charge up to 30ft over difficult terrain, and then retreat back to your starting position, without provoking an OA from the target. Which is great if you started in cover.

You can up that to 40ft away because mobile gives +10ft movement speed. In a white room that's a big difference with being able to move entirely out of movement range of most humanoids.

[Tanarii]

You can up that to 40ft away because mobile gives +10ft movement speed. In a white room that's a big difference with being able to move entirely out of movement range of most humanoids.
Good correction.

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Personally I ran lots of dungeons and wilderness adventuring sites with fairly cluttered lines of sight, so mobility, while useful, wasn't the be all end all. But also lots of difficult terrain both underground and above. But there are several posters that run games with fairly clear lines of sight and long distances being the norm, and swear by mobility and/or long ranged attacks.

[Gurgeh]

So assuming a martial with Extra Attack (reasonable to assume you would take PAM before level 5), you will have a total of 3 attacks at your disposal, and 2 of which are available for shoving. So while you cannot use specifically the bonus action attack for shoving, I dont see this as a significant limitation really.
Polearm Master requires you to "take the attack action and attack with only" an eligible weapon. You must, at the very least, reserve one of your attack-action attacks for a normal melee weapon attack to qualify for the bonus action attack, and I would rule that PAM's "only" clause disqualifies it entirely from being mixed up with a shove (yes, the game is never explicit about what is being used when you shove, but them's the breaks).