OOTS #1252 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Metastachydium]

Elan: still weirdly useful!

[Ruck]

Nice. I know there must be a few bets on Elan convincing Sunny to cooperate that are paying off now.

[Nightcanon]

Excellent! Nice thinking on how to go about security in a high-magic world in the last few pages. Elan showing his worth as a diplomancer again.

[Jeremiah31.3]

Wow... I've been reading this comic for years and I don't think I've ever caught it this early...

I like Sunny, Sunny is best beholder. Magically conjured stone as a beholder door is not something I'd thought of... Gonna have to find a way to use that in game...

[Beni-Kujaku]

How does Sunny go through the wall? If it only winks out when he looks at it, it should block most of his body when he's trying to pass.

[Metastachydium]

Also, #FranklinLives!

[MoiMagnus]

How does Sunny go through the wall? If it only winks out when he looks at it, it should block most of his body when he's trying to pass.

While the true answer is probably "don't think too much about it", it could also be that the wall simply doesn't immediately reappear when out of the anti-magic zone, and Sunny has just enough time to pass through by going quickly enough.

[danielxcutter]

Instantaneous effects can’t be dispelled or suppressed, but permanent effects can. It depends on what the type of spell was used to create the wall.

[Rogan]

Elan: still weirdly useful!

Yeah! Well, Sunny being sunny probably helped as well. This beholder is adorable.

So, will V have to go back to help Franklin up to the ceiling again, using her flight spell?

[3SecondCultist]

Awww, yeah! Sunny helping the Order due to Elan’s kindness was a predictable beat (in that many people predicted it) but it’s still a great offscreen moment of awesome for Elan.

[Tundar]

I love Elan. The world needs more people like him

[The MunchKING]

While the true answer is probably "don't think too much about it", it could also be that the wall simply doesn't immediately reappear when out of the anti-magic zone, and Sunny has just enough time to pass through by going quickly enough.

While your True Answer is probably correct, for that kind of effect you probably want a dispel. IIRC those tend to turn off permanent spells for a set amount of time (usually 10 minutes).

[HUMVEE Driver]

For a minute there, I didn't know what was going on. It took me a second. Roy just let Elan take the reins, which was kinda weird. Sunny cracked me up though! Too bad "Mommy" is probably going to mess it up.

Pity they can't work together! A little bit of teamwork would go a long way. Go after the bad guys together. Except it almost never seems to work out that way. :(

[hamishspence]

Elan's doing good. I suspect he'll be rapidly building a rapport with Sunny.

[Lord Torath]

I love that last line from Serini!! :smallbiggrin:

Now that they have some time to talk to her, they can share the results of the Godmoot with Serini, which will probably make her more open to a team-up.

Thanks, Rich!

[Shining Wrath]

Another example of how good can triumph over evil. Well done, Elan, your natural compassion made things much easier.
I think we now have a timeline; the Scribble started work on protecting the gates approximately 50 years ago. Which is not that long for a halfling; Serini should be the equivalent of a 50-ish human, by my guess.
Shouldn't someone be letting the paladins out of their chains as a high priority?


While the true answer is probably "don't think too much about it", it could also be that the wall simply doesn't immediately reappear when out of the anti-magic zone, and Sunny has just enough time to pass through by going quickly enough.


While your True Answer is probably correct, for that kind of effect you probably want a dispel. IIRC those tend to turn off permanent spells for a set amount of time (usually 10 minutes).

I'm going to go with Sunny rotates going through the wall and finishes by backing out. But the 10 minute thing works, if Serini is OK with her door being open for that long.

[DapperWarlock]

Three months after the strip he first dropped in, I was certain I had realized why the piercer was named Franklin... only to then see a claim that it's a reference to Hawkeye on M*A*S*H. On one hand, this seems tenuous because Franklin is his middle name, but on the other some people do go by their middle name and not their first (Not having watched any M*A*S*H yet, I don't know if this is the case for Hawkeye--especially since him having that nickname makes it even more confusing). With what little I know about Rich, it seems a little more likely than being a reference to the 14th US President, but I still don't know for sure. If it is the latter, that is a US history DEEP CUT.

[chrestomancy]

How does Sunny go through the wall? If it only winks out when he looks at it, it should block most of his body when he's trying to pass.

Think in terms of combat rounds. The conjured wall blinks out when sunny looks at it. He then takes a move action. The wall doesn’t reappear until the end of that.

In a world as self aware of the rules as this, it all checks out.

[Wraithfighter]

...if this were an actual Campaign, I'd kinda expect Elan's player to be this sorta super-competent min-max-er who decided to play the Comic Relief for the fun of it this time.

Because dude is hilariously competent now and it just kinda rules. Like, I'm honestly wondering if him offering to heal Franklin after already getting permission to heal his own friends was some kind of Machiavellian scheme, when it's still so incredibly in-character for him.

But yeah, yay seeing the combat section definitely over now, time for talky bits!

[Doug Lampert]

Three months after the strip he first dropped in, I was certain I had realized why the piercer was named Franklin... only to then see a claim that it's a reference to Hawkeye on M*A*S*H. On one hand, this seems tenuous because Franklin is his middle name, but on the other some people do go by their middle name and not their first (Not having watched any M*A*S*H yet, I don't know if this is the case for Hawkeye--especially since him having that nickname makes it even more confusing). With what little I know about Rich, it seems a little more likely than being a reference to the 14th US President, but I still don't know for sure. If it is the latter, that is a US history DEEP CUT.

Hawkeye always goes by Hawkeye on the show, his actual name is only used in situations where you could not use a nickname. When someone does call him by name, it's likely to be as Captain Pierce rather than Benjamin or Franklin.


Think in terms of combat rounds. The conjured wall blinks out when sunny looks at it. He then takes a move action. The wall doesn’t reappear until the end of that.

In a world as self aware of the rules as this, it all checks out.

Yes, this. Time in D&D exists in rounds and actions. Even if the stone tried to reappear during movement, Sunny appears to be only medium size, and the stone can only reappear when Sunny is in one square or the other since nothing happens while you are between squares, which means it comes back after Sunny is through.

[enq]

Panel two is missing punctuation in Haley's speech bubble.

[Edhelras]

Yay! That beholder really has a sunny disposition! Also, weekend update.

[hamishspence]

Another example of how good can triumph over evil. Well done, Elan, your natural compassion made things much easier.
I think we now have a timeline; the Scribble started work on protecting the gates approximately 50 years ago.

A bit more than that. Still, it seems like a possible date for the completion of the "splitting up process".


We know the "Gates quest" itself begun some 67 years ago

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

(roughly a year has lapsed between that scene with Shojo, and now)

And The Giant originally had The Sapphire Guard be founded "64 years ago" (65 now), two years after the Gate Quest began.



Let's say 76 years ago: Shojo I (age, say, 25) ascends to throne of Azure City. Soon (age 38) is his samurai.

68 years ago: Shojo I (age 33) becomes a father when Shojo II is born.

66 years ago: Soon (age 48) discovers rifts, etc.

64 years ago: Soon (age 50) founds Sapphire Guard.

56 years ago: Soon (age 58) gives control of Sapphire Guard to Shojo I (age 45), who has ruled Azure City for 20 years. Shojo II (age 12) looks on. Soon then dies.

47 years ago: Shojo I (age 59) dies. Shojo II (age 21) ascends throne of Azure City.

Today: Shojo II (age 68) rules Azure City.
The biggest changes The Giant made since that post, was to age Shojo II (the one we meet in the strip) up a bit from 68 to 72, and rename Shojo I to Ronjo.

In the context of the 50 years figure Serini gives - maybe the Sapphire Guard was around quite a bit longer than the splitting up was - with the splitting up taking place very shortly before Soon handed the Sapphire over to Shojo's father?

Since Xykon's not been a lich very long - (about 30 years or so going by Start of Darkness, and he's implied to have gotten the diary from Serini at most 6 years before the main strip begins), we know Serini's not saying she's guarded the dungeon, for 50 years, ever since the fight with Xykon, since he was a lich during that fight - and can't have encountered Serini that long ago.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html

[Wowlock]

To think, Elan and Sunny are the reasonable ones in the room. Who knew.

[Wraithfighter]

To think, Elan and Sunny are the reasonable ones in the room. Who knew.

Hey now, Haley's plenty reasonable, she just has little patience for SOBs who attack her friends unprovoked and refuse any efforts at diplomacy!

[Shining Wrath]

A bit more than that. Still, it seems like a possible date for the completion of the "splitting up process".


We know the "Gates quest" itself begun some 67 years ago

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

(roughly a year has lapsed between that scene with Shojo, and now)

And The Giant originally had The Sapphire Guard be founded "64 years ago" (65 now), two years after the Gate Quest began.


The biggest changes The Giant made since that post, was to age Shojo II (the one we meet in the strip) up a bit from 68 to 72, and rename Shojo I to Ronjo.

In the context of the 50 years figure Serini gives - maybe the Sapphire Guard was around quite a bit longer than the splitting up was - with the splitting up taking place very shortly before Soon handed the Sapphire over to Shojo's father?

Since Xykon's not been a lich very long - (about 30 years or so going by Start of Darkness, and he's implied to have gotten the diary from Serini at most 6 years before the main strip begins), we know Serini's not saying she's guarded the dungeon, for 50 years, ever since the fight with Xykon, since he was a lich during that fight - and can't have encountered Serini that long ago.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html

Serini's "50 years" is also perhaps a round number, and likely includes the time spent to construct the dungeon, which is similar to Rome in that it was not built in a day. Obviously Serini built the dungeon, and then continued with an adventuring life, which is how Xykon found her near the troll village. There's no way the split-up of the Scribbles didn't predate Xykon's lichhood, so Serini must have built her dungeon and then gone on with her life.

[hamishspence]

There's no way the split-up of the Scribblers came after Shojo's coming to the throne either, and that was 48 years ago.

It's possible that Serini took a long time to construct and stock the dungeon though - beginning around 65 years ago (same time that the Sapphire Guard was founded) and ending 50 years ago. She may have started with something small and spent the next 15 years expanding it a little at a time before saying "That's good enough" and leaving.

[The MunchKING]

Hey now, Haley's plenty reasonable, she just has little patience for SOBs who attack her friends unprovoked and refuse any efforts at diplomacy!

Sereni isn't really the "son of" anyone/

[Ezekiel]

Thanks for the surprise Saturday update Giant!:smallcool:

[Kantaki]

That is a clever door.

Also, Sunny remains best eyeball-thingy.
Silly Serini, if don't want your kid/minion to trust don't teach them to trust.
On the other hand Ian tried that and look how Haley turned out. :smalltongue:

[Ivrytwr]

Saturday update!! Woot
Elan being effective!!! Woot-woot
For the love of muffins!!! Hahaha!!
Thanks Giant!

[Jay R]

"Do as I imply, not as I say or do!"

My new motto.

[KorvinStarmast]

For the love of muffins!
That's one of the few bright spots in this strip. Likewise the ballon-headed (possibly a reference to the art style?) cloud-scrapers.
I like the beholder/wall entry exit trick. (Using D&D conventions/rules cleverly like that is appreciated by this long time DM).

[hungrycrow]

Kudos to Elan for remembering the little guy!

[RatElemental]

I figured Elan would get Sunny on board by healing him, didn't even think of Franklin who I wasn't expecting to have taken any damage from the fall.

Still looks like he did heal Sunny though, so I guess I'll count that as a half right guess.

[Fyraltari]

...if this were an actual Campaign, I'd kinda expect Elan's player to be this sorta super-competent min-max-er who decided to play the Comic Relief for the fun of it this time.

Because dude is hilariously competent now and it just kinda rules. Like, I'm honestly wondering if him offering to heal Franklin after already getting permission to heal his own friends was some kind of Machiavellian scheme, when it's still so incredibly in-character for him.

So, basically Carrot Ironfoundersson?

[X-tra]

Hehehe, I've been lurking for a long time now (still relatively short compared to other members here). However, I had to sign up to point up just a small mistake. Sereni's speech bubble in the second panel is white, not green. I believe this is incorrect?

[Peelee]

Still loving Serini's old-timey talk. Also, so happy THAT Roy and Durkon are here now, maybe they can finally get communication going through her head.
Hehehe, I've been lurking for a long time now (still relatively short compared to other members here). However, I had to sign up to point up just a small mistake. Sereni's speech bubble in the second panel is white, not green. I believe this is incorrect?
Ayep.

[hamishspence]

It might be, but as demonstrated by Malack in the Empire of Blood arc, characters are capable of changing their speech bubbles. In this case, Serini might have momentarily switched back to "halfling voice" instead of "troll voice".

[mucat]

So, basically Carrot Ironfoundersson?

"Someone has to be very complex indeed to be as simple as Carrot."
- Angua von Überwald, reflecting to herself

[hungrycrow]

...if this were an actual Campaign, I'd kinda expect Elan's player to be this sorta super-competent min-max-er who decided to play the Comic Relief for the fun of it this time.

Because dude is hilariously competent now and it just kinda rules. Like, I'm honestly wondering if him offering to heal Franklin after already getting permission to heal his own friends was some kind of Machiavellian scheme, when it's still so incredibly in-character for him.

But yeah, yay seeing the combat section definitely over now, time for talky bits!

I see Elan as a newbie that started seriously paying attention to little details in the story. It doesn't take much experience for that to pay off.

Also excited for some talky bits now that Roy is here!

[KorvinStarmast]

At some point, do we get the reveal from Serini as regards the details of Kraagor's death and why that created such a horrific rift among the Scribblers? This might be a good time (in the next few strips as they discuss stuff with Serini) for that to become more clear.

[danielxcutter]

At some point, do we get the reveal from Serini as regards the details of Kraagor's death and why that created such a horrific rift among the Scribblers?

I mean given that she's tied up, the entire Order is here, and her strongest known ally is unwilling to fight I'd give it a comic or two at most until that.

[Silent Wrangler]

Sereni isn't really the "son of" anyone/

She could in theory be a "sister of", though...

[Peelee]

It might be, but as demonstrated by Malack in the Empire of Blood arc, characters are capable of changing their speech bubbles. In this case, Serini might have momentarily switched back to "halfling voice" instead of "troll voice".
Yeah, but he had reasons (wanting to blend in) and rationale (only when vamping out) for that. Neither case really exists in this one panel.

I mean given that she's tied up, the entire Order is here, and her strongest known ally is unwilling to fight I'd give it a comic or two at most until that.
... Really? After all that you think she's just going to straight up two then everything with barely any discussion? I give it incredibly low odds of happening in the next strip.Maybe two, at the extreme low end.

[smuchmuch]

Aaw, I was hopin Elan convincing Sunny would be something that happn on screena nd maybe a way t show some charcter deeloppement. But this is fine too. (As long as we move on and w get eri to shut up a bit.)

[DaOldeWolf]

This is great. Elan taking care of the other half of the encounter is quite impressive, especially for Elan.

[danielxcutter]

... Really? After all that you think she's just going to straight up two then everything with barely any discussion? I give it incredibly low odds of happening in the next strip.Maybe two, at the extreme low end.

Well, I don't expect her to delay for the next three IRL years. I don't really expect her to spill all of it immediately but if the next ten comics are basically just Serini being LA LA LA then I don't think anyone could be happy about that.

[Fyraltari]

Clearly the info-dump will be dealyed by the sudden, surprising (and yet inevitable) return of Trigak! Yes, that's the only thing that makes sense.

[BriarHobbit]

This is a pleasant surprise. Elan remembering to heal Franklin was a nice touch. I admit that I was also hoping to see Elan speak with Sunny.

[Peelee]

Well, I don't expect her to delay for the next three IRL years.

Holy false dichotomy, Batman!

I'm saying more likely 3-5 strips. Maybe as much as 10, but I sincerely doubt that

[Shining Wrath]

Serini's whole bit is extreme pragmatism - do whatever is required to keep the last Gate intact.
Tied up, surrounded, with no where to flee, and the paladins about to be set free and provide both information and muscle to the Order - her only weapon is information at this point. She will dispense it grudgingly and manipulatively, but unless she wants to spend the rest of her life in those shackles (and since she expects the Order to die, that means dying of starvation fairly soon), she's going to talk.

Now, Serini's Bluff skill against the combined Insight skill of the party is not a good bet. I'm sure an epic rogue has epic Bluff, but Haley, the clerics, and the paladins likely have good insight, and they can all "roll". "You can fool all of the people some of the time..." - well, she'd better not count on all of them for an extended period.

[danielxcutter]

Holy false dichotomy, Batman!

I'm saying more likely 3-5 strips. Maybe as much as 10, but I sincerely doubt that

Oh come on, you know that was hyperbole.

[Peelee]

Oh come on, you know that was hyperbole.

I fail to see how extremely overblown hyperbole is much different.

[AstralFire]

My guess: Serini will help them now because she's out of options (or at least pretend to help them) and she won't realize they have what the Scribblers lacked until much later, possibly tragically.

[hungrycrow]

Serini still seems to think her knowledge is a bargaining chip worth the entire Order surrendering, so I'm guessing she doesn't jump straight to her life story. I can see her letting some important information slip in between insults though.

Next step is probably her and Roy arguing over the destruction of the other Gates.

[danielxcutter]

Serini still seems to think her knowledge is a bargaining chip worth the entire Order surrendering, so I'm guessing she doesn't jump straight to her life story. I can see her letting some important information slip in between insults though.

Next step is probably her and Roy arguing over the destruction of the other Gates.

There is no way a remotely informed Serini can blame them for Lirian's Gate whatsoever in good faith, so there's that.

[Peelee]

Serini still seems to think her knowledge is a bargaining chip worth the entire Order surrendering, so I'm guessing she doesn't jump straight to her life story. I can see her letting some important information slip in between insults though.

Next step is probably her and Roy arguing over the destruction of the other Gates.

I don't know if Roy would argue, really. They don't need to justify actions with the other Gates. They need to justify actions with this one. I think that's the route Roy will take.

[Austin's Dad]

I may have missed this detail: Does the color de-saturate in panel 4 and subsequently because of the effect of The-Thing-With-The-Eyes' view? At first I thought that Haley was caught in an illusion.

[AstralFire]

I may have missed this detail: Does the color de-saturate in panel 4 and subsequently because of the effect of The-Thing-With-The-Eyes' view? At first I thought that Haley was caught in an illusion.

Yeah, anti-magic removes most of the color from the affected area. We see that consistently with Sunny.

[hamishspence]

Yup - that's how anti-magic in general works in this comic. We also see it with V:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

[Schroeswald]

Glad Franklin’s okay! I hope the floor monster gets healed soon.

[Blatt]

How does Sunny go through the wall? If it only winks out when he looks at it, it should block most of his body when he's trying to pass.

It's a complicated maneuver in which Sunny approaches the wall forwards and rotates as he goes through so he comes out backwards. :smallbiggrin:

[137beth]

So it seems Sunny is the Elan of Serini's group.

[danielxcutter]

I think Elan's a bit more competent though.

[Psyren]

Serini - proof that the Int and Wis buff from venerable is nothing to write home about.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Good to see that we’re all friends now. :smallbiggrin:

[Xel]

Clearly the info-dump will be dealyed by the sudden, surprising (and yet inevitable) return of Trigak! Yes, that's the only thing that makes sense.

Oh, come now. The IFCC are not going to waste Trigak’s return on an info dump just to prod The Good Guys to take action marginally faster than it looks like they are going to anyway. They surely have bigger plans afoot for them.

[Metastachydium]

I think Elan's a bit more competent though.

Sunny compensates for that with raw firepower, though.

[Pablo360]

Oh, come now. The IFCC are not going to waste Trigak’s return on an info dump just to prod The Good Guys to take action marginally faster than it looks like they are going to anyway. They surely have bigger plans afoot for them.

Trigak’s lover on the other hand…

[elros]

Everything is playing out as predicted, except for one small detail.
If they want to bind Serini, why tie her up with rope instead of a spell from V? Serini is a high level rogue and must have ranks in escape artist and use rope, so that is not a reliable way to contain her. One spell from V would be the way to go, right?

[Emanick]

Everything is playing out as predicted, except for one small detail.
If they want to bind Serini, why tie her up with rope instead of a spell from V? Serini is a high level rogue and must have ranks in escape artist and use rope, so that is not a reliable way to contain her. One spell from V would be the way to go, right?

As a high-level rogue, Haley probably knows how capable she is of restraining a low-epic rogue. A spell from V might be better in most cases, but one glance from Sunny and Serini is free.

[Forum Explorer]

Serini's whole bit is extreme pragmatism - do whatever is required to keep the last Gate intact.
Tied up, surrounded, with no where to flee, and the paladins about to be set free and provide both information and muscle to the Order - her only weapon is information at this point. She will dispense it grudgingly and manipulatively, but unless she wants to spend the rest of her life in those shackles (and since she expects the Order to die, that means dying of starvation fairly soon), she's going to talk.

Now, Serini's Bluff skill against the combined Insight skill of the party is not a good bet. I'm sure an epic rogue has epic Bluff, but Haley, the clerics, and the paladins likely have good insight, and they can all "roll". "You can fool all of the people some of the time..." - well, she'd better not count on all of them for an extended period.

I'd hardly call Serini's bit as 'extreme pragmatism'. I feel that whatever claim she had to that title went out the window with her bluff to mind wipe herself, as Haley rightfully calls it out as being a stupid bluff in the first place. Even if they did value her knowledge, they certainly aren't going to surrender and allow her to dose them with that potion to preserve it. She had no endgame there.

No, I'd characterize Serini as desperate and afraid.


As a high-level rogue, Haley probably knows how capable she is of restraining a low-epic rogue. A spell from V might be better in most cases, but one glance from Sunny and Serini is free.

Also a spell takes up a potentially valuable spell slot and they are still planning on fighting Xykon today. The rope is free, and they are watching her.

[Emanick]

Also a spell takes up a potentially valuable spell slot and they are still planning on fighting Xykon today. The rope is free, and they are watching her.

I would hope that they're no longer planning on fighting him today. They've used up too many spell slots.

[Garanvir]

Three months after the strip he first dropped in, I was certain I had realized why the piercer was named Franklin... only to then see a claim that it's a reference to Hawkeye on M*A*S*H. On one hand, this seems tenuous because Franklin is his middle name, but on the other some people do go by their middle name and not their first (Not having watched any M*A*S*H yet, I don't know if this is the case for Hawkeye--especially since him having that nickname makes it even more confusing). With what little I know about Rich, it seems a little more likely than being a reference to the 14th US President, but I still don't know for sure. If it is the latter, that is a US history DEEP CUT.

Not sure why the Piercer's name would be a reference to Hawkeye from MASH, but anything is possible. As I recall Hawkeye's full name was Benjamin Franklin Pierce, named after both the founding father and the US president. Maybe there was an episode that expanded the backstory, but I don't recall his real name having a deep significance on the show or even coming up all that often - 99% of the time he was just Hawkeye to cast regulars and guest characters that knew him well or Capt. Pierce to guest characters who didn't know him - I do recall that Hawkeye was explained as coming from the character in last of the Mohicans, though again not why that was significant to the MASH character, it just was. Maybe the movie (which I saw once long, long ago) or the book (which I never read, if it even exists - I think it was a book first but am not totally sure) explained it more or better than the TV show did (although you would think with a ten year run the show would have had more time to delve into that sort of backstory element than a movie would).

Edit - because I inadvertently capitalized "Piercer" I guess I suddenly see it - Franklin Pierce(r) - was that the idea? Still I agree, I don't recall him ever being called just "Franklin Pierce" on the show - or Benjamin Pierce either - it was either Hawkeye (almost always without the Pierce) or Captain Pierce or the full name Benjamin Franklin Pierce. I guess characters who were angry with him or just being antagonistic (mostly Frank) would call him just "Pierce"

But I would bet more on the History Deep Cut than a MASH reference.

[Fyraltari]

Everything is playing out as predicted, except for one small detail.
If they want to bind Serini, why tie her up with rope instead of a spell from V? Serini is a high level rogue and must have ranks in escape artist and use rope, so that is not a reliable way to contain her. One spell from V would be the way to go, right?

Worked so well last time. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1247.html) Plus, what are the odds V prepared a second spell capable of holding someone without harming them?

[TwilightSandwic]

I love Sunny so much!

[HorstCroquette]

Can Serini just change the color of her speech bubble at will and thus likes to sound like a troll most of the time? :smallconfused:

[Fyraltari]

Can Serini just change the color of her speech bubble at will and thus likes to sound like a troll most of the time? :smallconfused:

This is (probably) a coloring error.

[Wraithfighter]

I'm saying more likely 3-5 strips. Maybe as much as 10, but I sincerely doubt that

Disagree. She'll either start talking during or immediately after the next strip, or she won't start talking until after a scene change which will probably take up 10+ strips.

This is less about Serini and more just about story pacing. Her stonewalling people for several strips in a row, after an entire fight scene of doing that, would just be dull and tiring. If its reasonable for her to do that, you might as well just change scenes, let that argument continue off-screen while you deal with something more interesting.

I mean, it's been 30 strips since we've last seen Team Evil, they'd make for a good interlude while the good guys sort things out off-screen.

[Peelee]

Disagree. She'll either start talking during or immediately after the next strip, or she won't start talking until after a scene change which will probably take up 10+ strips.

This is less about Serini and more just about story pacing. Her stonewalling people for several strips in a row, after an entire fight scene of doing that, would just be dull and tiring. If its reasonable for her to do that, you might as well just change scenes, let that argument continue off-screen while you deal with something more interesting.

I mean, it's been 30 strips since we've last seen Team Evil, they'd make for a good interlude while the good guys sort things out off-screen.

Ya know, I initially had "barring any scene changes" but discarded it. I don't think she'll start talking immediately, though, because she has no reason to start talking immediately. She hasn't changed at all since the beginning of the fight, she has no reason at all to want to discuss things with them. They need to convince her somehow. I think pacing-wise, that'll be just fine.

[Ekul]

It's so satisfying to see the Order all grown up and competently succeeding in their areas of expertise. It's been a long road, getting from the early strips to here

[Wraithfighter]

It's so satisfying to see the Order all grown up and competently succeeding in their areas of expertise. It's been a long road, getting from the early strips to here

Yeah, it's been a long drive, but their time is finally here...

[Mic_128]

unless she wants to spend the rest of her life in those shackles (and since she expects the Order to die, that means dying of starvation fairly soon), she's going to talk.


She's an epic level rogue, in her own home, tied up with just rope. No way she isn't free within minutes of them leaving her alone.

[Liquor Box]

Everything is playing out as predicted, except for one small detail.
If they want to bind Serini, why tie her up with rope instead of a spell from V? Serini is a high level rogue and must have ranks in escape artist and use rope, so that is not a reliable way to contain her. One spell from V would be the way to go, right?

The manacles she used on the paladins would have been my pick


She's an epic level rogue, in her own home, tied up with just rope. No way she isn't free within minutes of them leaving her alone.

Escaping from manacles requires a DC30 escape artiest check (35 if they are masterwork). That will probably be beyond her unless she has put quite a lot of skill points into escape artist, which is not that common for rogues. I suppose there's a risk she's able to escape from manacles of ropes, but not a guarantee.

Other options is some sort of magical cage, or using her sleeping poison against her

I wonder if the short-term nature of her amnesia potion would make her forget the Order and paladins were even in the area.

[Wraithfighter]

1: Serini will stay bound for as long as the story says she'll stay bound for.

2: Haley binding Serini with Rope makes a lot of sense from a mechanical viewpoint in 3.5. It's an opposing skill check between Serini and Haley: Serini's Escape Artist check, versus Haley's Use Rope check with a +10 bonus. And that's not including circumstance bonuses that might exist.

Maybe Haley doesn't have a lot of points in Use Rope, and Escape Artist is a logical stat for a Rogue to keep max'd out, but Rogues are awash in skill points, and the +10 bonus Haley gets is large enough to make up for the level disparity. In the end, binding with rope by Haley could be an even greater stat than Masterwork Manacles.

3: It's probably binding with rope because it's easier to draw and have her be moved about and face whatever direction as needed.

[hungrycrow]

1: Serini will stay bound for as long as the story says she'll stay bound for.

2: Haley binding Serini with Rope makes a lot of sense from a mechanical viewpoint in 3.5. It's an opposing skill check between Serini and Haley: Serini's Escape Artist check, versus Haley's Use Rope check with a +10 bonus. And that's not including circumstance bonuses that might exist.

Maybe Haley doesn't have a lot of points in Use Rope, and Escape Artist is a logical stat for a Rogue to keep max'd out, but Rogues are awash in skill points, and the +10 bonus Haley gets is large enough to make up for the level disparity. In the end, binding with rope by Haley could be an even greater stat than Masterwork Manacles.


Haley stopped keeping Search and Disable Device maxed before. If she's had to ration her skill points, I'd bet Use Rope was a low priority too.

Once the Order leaves, Serini is free to take 20, so any option is likely to be temporary. For now I think that's all they want; they just need to make sure she stays put while they have a conversation.

Long-term, they could conceivably trap her in this room if they take Sunny and her wands with them.

[KorvinStarmast]

She's an epic level rogue, in her own home, tied up with just rope. No way she isn't free within minutes of them leaving her alone.
That's kind of where my thoughts went.


Long-term, they could conceivably trap her in this room if they take Sunny and her wands with them. Sunny is not going to abandon "Mom" now matter how nice of a guy Elan is.

[pearl jam]

Not sure why the Piercer's name would be a reference to Hawkeye from MASH, but anything is possible. As I recall Hawkeye's full name was Benjamin Franklin Pierce, named after both the founding father and the US president. Maybe there was an episode that expanded the backstory, but I don't recall his real name having a deep significance on the show or even coming up all that often - 99% of the time he was just Hawkeye to cast regulars and guest characters that knew him well or Capt. Pierce to guest characters who didn't know him - I do recall that Hawkeye was explained as coming from the character in last of the Mohicans, though again not why that was significant to the MASH character, it just was. Maybe the movie (which I saw once long, long ago) or the book (which I never read, if it even exists - I think it was a book first but am not totally sure) explained it more or better than the TV show did (although you would think with a ten year run the show would have had more time to delve into that sort of backstory element than a movie would).

Edit - because I inadvertently capitalized "Piercer" I guess I suddenly see it - Franklin Pierce(r) - was that the idea? Still I agree, I don't recall him ever being called just "Franklin Pierce" on the show - or Benjamin Pierce either - it was either Hawkeye (almost always without the Pierce) or Captain Pierce or the full name Benjamin Franklin Pierce. I guess characters who were angry with him or just being antagonistic (mostly Frank) would call him just "Pierce"

But I would bet more on the History Deep Cut than a MASH reference.

Yes, clearly naming the piercer Franklin is a reference to Franklin Pierce the US president (unless the Giant happens to have a friend with the name too and it's just a shoutout to them or something, lol), so the only thing in question is whether or not that reference is being made by way of referencing the MASH character, since the character's name is itself a reference. Nothing in particular about his actions in the comic to suggest that tho. He was a recipient of the only healing action related to him, rather than the dispenser and we've seen no indications of him being a hit with the ladies or a jokester or any of the other characteristics of the MASH character. On the other hand, the movie was a hit and the tv show is one of the beloved ones of all time, particularly in the age bracket that the Giant is a part of, so even if the reference is more directly to the president, the character of Hawkeye may have subconsciously assisted in the idea coming to mind.

[Wraithfighter]

Haley stopped keeping Search and Disable Device maxed before. If she's had to ration her skill points, I'd bet Use Rope was a low priority too.

Once the Order leaves, Serini is free to take 20, so any option is likely to be temporary. For now I think that's all they want; they just need to make sure she stays put while they have a conversation.

Long-term, they could conceivably trap her in this room if they take Sunny and her wands with them.

Sure, but there...... reasons a Rogue might decide to keep her Use Rope skill max'd out.

No kinkshaming allowed!

But yeah, if they leave Serini alone, odds are super-high that she'll escape.

Also, if they leave Serini alone for even a single goddamn round without fashioning more effective restraints, then they'll be acting incredibly stupid, to a point that's beyond the pale even. They're not that stupid (anymore)!

[JonahFalcon]

Woo!

Called it!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25282580&postcount=154

[drazen]

Nitpick:

If Sunny's AMF eye dissipates the wall, wouldn't the rock re-materialize around him as he tried to cross the threshold?

That is, once his eye is occupying part of where the wall is, everything behind it is technically NOT in anti-magic cone.

He could zap the door for Serini, but I don't see how he could zap it for himself effectively.

Example:

E ===> wwwwwwww

WWWE ===> wwww

There's a beholder butt trapped in a wall in that second one.

[Liquor Box]

1: Serini will stay bound for as long as the story says she'll stay bound for.


I have to say that this sort of fatalistic perspective makes it needless to discuss any aspect of the story. I mean there'd be no need to tie Serini at all because she would divulge information/join the party/stay out of the way exactly to the extent required by the story. No need to oppose Xykon because he'll suceed/fail/be destroyed the extent required by the story.

[The MunchKING]

Yeah, anti-magic removes most of the color from the affected area. We see that consistently with Sunny.

I guess that shows how just magic in general this world is.

[danielxcutter]

If Serini brings up the “four chances” thing again I assume it’s going to be shot down immediately.

Serini: “But the paladins -“
Roy: “Were bound by an oath you came up with.”
Serini: “But what about you?”
Haley: “Most of us weren’t even born back then.”
Serini: “…Oh, uh, yeah? What about the elf?”
Vaarsuvius: “Ah yes, I am sure cantrips and banana muffins would have been of great effect against the epic sorcerer lich.”
Elan, Sunny “Wait, really?”
Elan: “Oh wait, that was sarcasm.”
Serini: :smallannoyed:

[Liquor Box]

If Serini brings up the “four chances” thing again I assume it’s going to be shot down immediately.

Serini: “But the paladins -“
Roy: “Were bound by an oath you came up with.”
Serini: “But what about you?”
Haley: “Most of us weren’t even born back then.”
Serini: “…Oh, uh, yeah? What about the elf?”
Vaarsuvius: “Ah yes, I am sure cantrips and banana muffins would have been of great effect against the epic sorcerer lich.”
Elan, Sunny “Wait, really?”
Elan: “Oh wait, that was sarcasm.”
Serini: :smallannoyed:

There's no reason at all for Serini to have thought the paladins (or Order) might have played a role in Lirian's gate, and a pretty high chance she knows they weren't involved. I think Serini meant to refer to four gates being down so this being the last one and not one to gamble with. But because Serini was being antagonistic and trying to score points against the paladins, she conflated the four gates down with those she thought the paladins had played a part in. I think if she reflected on that comment she'd know it was inaccurate.

Meaning I don't think we are going to see her accusing anyone of being responsible for Lirian's gate going down.

[Robots]

Hey hey, we're all gonna talk it out and learn that we're all sort of on the same wavelength here!

Sunny is so cute, oh my gosh.

[Grey Watcher]

I guess that shows how just magic in general this world is.

I took it as being more for the audience's benefit than something in-universe, like invisible people being rendered as chalk outlines. Of course, given this comic's relationship with the fourth wall, I don't think any element is ENTIRELY non-diagetic. But that sort of thing runs on some variant of Roger Rabbit toon logic.

[Peelee]

If Serini brings up the “four chances” thing again I assume it’s going to be shot down immediately.

Serini: “But the paladins -“
Roy: “Were bound by an oath you came up with.”
Serini: “But what about you?”
Haley: “Most of us weren’t even born back then.”
Serini: “…Oh, uh, yeah? What about the elf?”
Vaarsuvius: “Ah yes, I am sure cantrips and banana muffins would have been of great effect against the epic sorcerer lich.”
Elan, Sunny “Wait, really?”
Elan: “Oh wait, that was sarcasm.”
Serini: :smallannoyed:

I don't think your shame fantasy will play out, since they destroyed two Gates. The fourth one is semantics.

[Wraithfighter]

I have to say that this sort of fatalistic perspective makes it needless to discuss any aspect of the story. I mean there'd be no need to tie Serini at all because she would divulge information/join the party/stay out of the way exactly to the extent required by the story. No need to oppose Xykon because he'll suceed/fail/be destroyed the extent required by the story.

I went onto other points for a reason, ya know.

Personally, I find squabbling over rule mechanics to be tiresome. Like, in the preceding battle, a high-level Dwarf Cleric who focuses on frontline combat (thus high Con score) failed a DC 18 Fortitude Save and got turned to stone. The odds of that happening are phenomenally low, like Nat-1 low, but it doesn't matter because Durkon being flesh during that fight would've made the Order's victory vastly easier. Rich tilted the in-universe rolls to make for a better story, not the first time he's done that, doubt it'd be the last.

The point is just whether or not it's possible under the rules. Because the whole point is that this is a story being told, not a campaign being run. Going "she's only tied up with rope? She's an experienced rogue, odds are good she'll be able to escape it easily" is one thing, going "why aren't they using the manacles they have a DC 30 skill check for escape, DC 35 if they're Masterwork!" is an entire other thing.

But, I do get your point that I was just going far more "the story will play out how it'll play out stop theorycrafting nonsense" than I was intending. I really should've just skipped to Point 3 there, honestly, which is probably the real reason: She's tied up because its simpler to draw and more convenient for the oncoming conversation scene, the party would have to be even dumber than Book 1 Elan to leave her alone for long enough for her to escape...

[gatemansgc]

ooh rare weekend drop!

sunny is such a great character i love it <3 the magically conjured wall is just neat too!

[CountDVB]

Honestly, I'm quite intrigued on the dialogue possibilities, especially with Roy back in action. I suspect she may be underestimating his intellectual capabilities or project her old team onto them, which Elan would like lampshade on. I also suspect that Roy might explode or otherwise rant to her about the failures of the Scribblers regarding the irresponsible nature of their system and also how their inability to communicate would screw alot of this up.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Honestly, I'm quite intrigued on the dialogue possibilities, especially with Roy back in action. I suspect she may be underestimating his intellectual capabilities or project her old team onto them, which Elan would like lampshade on. I also suspect that Roy might explode or otherwise rant to her about the failures of the Scribblers regarding the irresponsible nature of their system and also how their inability to communicate would screw alot of this up.

The scribblers managed to keep the world existing for much longer than the OOTS have managed, so there's that.

[Wraithfighter]

The scribblers managed to keep the world existing for much longer than the OOTS have managed, so there's that.

Sure, but thus far between the Order of the Stick and the Scribbles, there's been 7 combat encounters involving Xykon.

The Scribbles are 0-3 so far, with two deaths and a serious dismemberment.

The Sticks are 1-1-2, with one outright victory, one loss with a PC death, and two no-contests due to one group quitting the field of battle.

And yeah, apples and oranges apply, but they also do to the amount of time each group have kept the world safe, given the vastly different levels of threats that have been opposing the two groups (I somehow doubt that the Holey Brotherhood or Baron Pineapple were Epic level enemies).

[Emanick]

Sure, but thus far between the Order of the Stick and the Scribbles, there's been 7 combat encounters involving Xykon.

The Scribbles are 0-3 so far, with two deaths and a serious dismemberment.

The Sticks are 1-1-2, with one outright victory, one loss with a PC death, and two no-contests due to one group quitting the field of battle.

And yeah, apples and oranges apply, but they also do to the amount of time each group have kept the world safe, given the vastly different levels of threats that have been opposing the two groups (I somehow doubt that the Holey Brotherhood or Baron Pineapple were Epic level enemies).

Lirian defeated Team Evil the first time around, so that's at least one victory. Soon also more or less defeated Xykon and Redcloak. So the Scribblers are really more like 2-3.

[Wraithfighter]

Lirian defeated Team Evil the first time around, so that's at least one victory. Soon also more or less defeated Xykon and Redcloak. So the Scribblers are really more like 2-3.

...mmm, fair on the former, but the latter is really more of a draw, given the limitations involved in Soon's situation. 1-3-1 feels more fair.

[danielxcutter]

Y'know, I've said this about other things before and it doesn't really impact the quality of the comic as a story, but if you as a DM actually tried to pull Serini-level BS like she has for the past dozen or so strips I think that's a quick way to get your players incredibly salty at you.

[Wraithfighter]

Y'know, I've said this about other things before and it doesn't really impact the quality of the comic as a story, but if you as a DM actually tried to pull Serini-level BS like she has for the past dozen or so strips I think that's a quick way to get your players incredibly salty at you.

Maybe, but we should also note that it'd be like a half-hour of real-world time in a campaign, and it'd be that the combat encounter was more puzzle-based than, well, combat-based, so it'd be easier to soften the blow.

[danielxcutter]

Maybe, but we should also note that it'd be like a half-hour of real-world time in a campaign, and it'd be that the combat encounter was more puzzle-based than, well, combat-based, so it'd be easier to soften the blow.

Another factor might be whether the players roll for their saves out in the open or if the DM does it - in the former, it's just bad luck, but with the latter I can see accusations being thrown.

[a_flemish_guy]

:elan: Did you know it takes a piercer eight weeks to climb to the top of a room like that?

aw, poor thing, that's why you get mama roper to put them there in an instant

[ratfox]

And that's how you use a high CHA stat!
Or, as it is known in other fanbases, talk-no-jutsu

[Ruck]

I know it was widely predicted / expected when Sunny first appeared, but is this strip enough to call Sunny an "important ally"? Well, "ally" at least; I think the importance is still to be determined.

[Gusion]

New comic is up.

Does she stop regenerating when he is looking at her?

I'd think so... but I suppose troll regeneration is natural to them?

[mjasghar]

Well dragons as they stand shouldn’t be able to fly and V knows that anti magic didn’t affect that. I suppose it’s Ex abilities as opposed to Su.
Also - is the 8 weeks comment significant? Did Serini start preparing 8 weeks ago? If so, what was happening in the main story at that time?

[The MunchKING]

Does she stop regenerating when he is looking at her?

I'd think so... but I suppose troll regeneration is natural to them?

It is in fact and extraordinary ability (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration), and thus is NOT shut down in an anti-magic field. Like a Star fish or those lizards that shed their own tails, regeneration is natural for them, and not magical in any way.

[Mic_128]

Escaping from manacles requires a DC30 escape artiest check (35 if they are masterwork). That will probably be beyond her unless she has put quite a lot of skill points into escape artist, which is not that common for rogues. I suppose there's a risk she's able to escape from manacles of ropes, but not a guarantee.
I was thinking more that she's literally in her own house and would clearly know of a number of sharp items that could be used to rub against/cut the rope.

I know it was widely predicted / expected when Sunny first appeared, but is this strip enough to call Sunny an "important ally"? Well, "ally" at least; I think the importance is still to be determined.
I kinda get the feeling that Serini's going to continue being difficult, and Sunny will join the team, much to her frustration.

[danielxcutter]

I'm pretty sure the only reason Haley even bothered with tying her up is because that still makes Serini use her action no matter how high the result of her check.

[Quartz]

If Sunny remains an ally the Order now have someone who can shut down Xykon or Redcloak.

[Nymrod]

If Sunny remains an ally the Order now have someone who can shut down Xykon or Redcloak.

Sunny is a child. Sure she is a child beholder, but still a child and not even fully developed (eight eyestalks instead of 10). Not really morally responsible to bring a child to a fight.

[danielxcutter]

Sunny is a child. Sure she is a child beholder, but still a child and not even fully developed (eight eyestalks instead of 10). Not really morally responsible to bring a child to a fight.

While I agree with the general premise entirely, I wonder why Serini brought Sunny to fight the Order then. Did she underestimate them that badly?

[JonahFalcon]

And that's how you use a high CHA stat!
Or, as it is known in other fanbases, talk-no-jutsu

Well, even Elan knew that charming people wasn't enough, hence Dashing Swordsman.


While I agree with the general premise entirely, I wonder why Serini brought Sunny to fight the Order then. Did she underestimate them that badly?

Sunny is not a child. S/he's childlike. In combat, Sunny is devastating, but s/he isn't (apparently) the Lawful Evil type, so s/he didn't use any lethal abilities. For one, s/he didn't Petrify Haley when it would have killed her.

And even then, Sunny is on the side of Good (apparently), and Elan has an 18 Charisma, and Serini left the two alone with a long time to converse. When Elan healed one of Sunny's allies/friends, that and Elan's charm was enough to convince him/her to stand down.

You honestly think Xykon could do the same?

[Peelee]

not even fully developed (eight eyestalks instead of 10).

[citation needed]

D&D beholders are not Stickworld Eye Tyrants.

[danielxcutter]

I mean it’s entirely reasonable to assume Sunny’s not an adult by how they act.

[JonahFalcon]

Hey Rich! This is the second strip you titled "Tied Up Nicely"! I call foul!

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html

[Fyraltari]

I mean it’s entirely reasonable to assume Sunny’s not an adult by how they act.

:elan:
:thog:

[Manga Shoggoth]

Hey Rich! This is the second strip you titled "Tied Up Nicely"! I call foul!

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html

Perhaps it can be renamed "Tied Up Nicely II"

[KorvinStarmast]

Sunny is a child. Sure she is a child beholder, but still a child and not even fully developed (eight eyestalks instead of 10). Not really morally responsible to bring a child to a fight.
This is a "no sale" position.
1. I still call my mom "Mom" and yet I am hardly a child. (We have two kids and one grandchild)
2. Elan is as naive as Sunny, and as generally good hearted, but Elan isn't a child.
3. Thog had a lot of "child like" sentiments expressed and Thog was not a child.

I mean it’s entirely reasonable to assume Sunny’s not an adult by how they act. See above.

[pendell]

Gotta say I'm glad Sunny's alive and I hope ze lives through the story. I also demand a plushie!

Not so much a funny strip as a warm-hearted one. Thank you, Giant!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Wraithfighter]

Another factor might be whether the players roll for their saves out in the open or if the DM does it - in the former, it's just bad luck, but with the latter I can see accusations being thrown.

...yeah, I picture the whole group razzing the hell out of Durkon's player for failing a DC 18 Fort Save when they needed a high-level Cleric most :D.

[KorvinStarmast]

Gotta say I'm glad Sunny's alive and I hope ze lives through the story. I also demand a plushie! That's a nice ask, not sure if Rich will add that to the store, but maybe next year's Christmas ornament?

[ThievesHand]

I am not too familiar with forums, so if I posted this in the wrong section, please bare with me.

I noticed this page seemed to have an error in it! :smallredface: Maybe I missed something, but the halfling woman's textbox in the second panel was no longer green coloured, whereas it has been so far, and continued to be in later boxes.

I figured I'd share, hoping Rich would read and appreciate it.

In which case, holy **** Rich, I think I've been silently aware of OotS since 2005... Your stuff is actually part of my childhood. Sorry, just had to mention that too...

[CuChullain]

Hi, long-time reader, first-time poster.

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere or is bleedingly obvious for those better acquainted with beholders, but why does the colour palette for things in Sunny's gaze change to be duller/more pastelle?

[hungrycrow]

Hi, long-time reader, first-time poster.

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere or is bleedingly obvious for those better acquainted with beholders, but why does the colour palette for things in Sunny's gaze change to be duller/more pastelle?

It's an artistic rendition of their antimagic cone. Same thing happened when the Ancient Black Dragon was casting Anti-magic Field.

[CuChullain]

It's an artistic rendition of their antimagic cone. Same thing happened when the Ancient Black Dragon was casting Anti-magic Field.

Ah, ok. Thank you.

[brian 333]

Gotta say... I also demand a plushie!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

My unsolicited advice is to make a plushie and mail it to Mr.Burlew so he can see exactly how it should look. (My inner Zapp highly recommends the look and sensuous feel of velour.)

Then, after he submits your model for reproduction, manufactures a few dozen for test marketing, and offers them for auction, you can submit your bid on his 'Fund My Funny' page. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to win one.

[Mic_128]

Sunny is a child. Sure she is a child beholder, but still a child and not even fully developed (eight eyestalks instead of 10). Not really morally responsible to bring a child to a fight.

Even if it was a child (with Elan and Thog, need more proof than just "behaves childlike") the literal world is at stake here and they need every arrow in their quiver. It's not as if the Gods will spare Sunny when they tear up creation.

[JonahFalcon]

Even if it was a child (with Elan and Thog, need more proof than just "behaves childlike") the literal world is at stake here and they need every arrow in their quiver. It's not as if the Gods will spare Sunny when they tear up creation.

Sunny almost singlehandedly defeated the Order, and it was only because Elan managed to make her blink that they even survived.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Sunny is a child. Sure she is a child beholder, but still a child and not even fully developed (eight eyestalks instead of 10). Not really morally responsible to bring a child to a fight.

I would tend to agree, but like with Minrah who isn't of appropriate level for these encounters, the stakes are not only everyone is going to die anyway unless they try to help, but their very souls could also be destroyed.

It's actually more dangerous for the folks who make no effort to help.

As long as the dangers are explained in advance, I think you can remove age or level restrictions from this. It's not actually safe anywhere and everyone's permanent doom is imminent.

Situations like these, you're allowed to make an informed grown-up decision. It may be the only one you ever get.

That said, I rely hope they don't have to rely on Sunny. The creature is very likely to be harmed by that encounter, or die.

At least there's a nicer afterlife waiting for Sunny. It would be extremely cruel not to send Sunny to the very best place.

[Sebastian]

While the true answer is probably "don't think too much about it", it could also be that the wall simply doesn't immediately reappear when out of the anti-magic zone, and Sunny has just enough time to pass through by going quickly enough.

If I remember the rules correctly, as long as one part of the wall is hit by the antimagic ray the wall is dispelled. All Sunny need to do is keep his eye on the wall (i.e. looking on the side) and it is fine.

Alternatively, Wall of stone don't form if something occupy the same space, even when the antimagic ray is not applied as long as something (Sunny, for example) is in the way the wall won't appear.

[Nymrod]

[citation needed]

D&D beholders are not Stickworld Eye Tyrants.
Truth be told, the previous Eye Tyrant also only had eight eyestalks and was mysteriously Medium-sized.

[Athas]

So, basically Carrot Ironfoundersson?

Was Carrot Machiavellian? I genuinely don't remember him not being genuine?

[Fyraltari]

Was Carrot Machiavellian? I genuinely don't remember him not being genuine?

It's strongly suspected by several characters (his mentor and his girlfriend), that he's far less naïve than he appears to be and his consciously using narrative causality to his (and, frankly, most people's) advantage.

[Turin_19]

I also demand a plushie!


Brian P.

I'd go ahead and say that there should also be a Franklin and maybe a nice doormat of the floor monster.

[Mic_128]

That said, I rely hope they don't have to rely on Sunny. The creature is very likely to be harmed by that encounter, or die.

At least there's a nicer afterlife waiting for Sunny. It would be extremely cruel not to send Sunny to the very best place.

Huh. Do we know if monsters go to an afterlife? I know that Outsiders don't, they just die-die, but things like bugbears? Rats? The white-tentacle-squid-guys-whose-name-I've-forgotten?

[faustin]

It seems Serini and Harley's dad have similar problems regarding parental skills and trust issues. Is it a rogue thing?

[danielxcutter]

Huh. Do we know if monsters go to an afterlife? I know that Outsiders don't, they just die-die, but things like bugbears? Rats? The white-tentacle-squid-guys-whose-name-I've-forgotten?

Basically anything with Int 3+ that isn’t an extraplanar outsider or undead goes to some afterlife, I think.

[Fyraltari]

Huh. Do we know if monsters go to an afterlife? I know that Outsiders don't, they just die-die, but things like bugbears? Rats? The white-tentacle-squid-guys-whose-name-I've-forgotten?

We've seen bugbears in The Dark One's army of the dead.

[Ezekiel]

The white-tentacle-squid-guys-whose-name-I've-forgotten?

Those guys are Flumphs

[Skull the Troll]

Those guys are Flumphs

And we saw a Ghost Roy land on ghost Flumph when he came down the material plane to check on things.

[hamishspence]

Basically anything with Int 3+ that isn’t an extraplanar outsider or undead goes to some afterlife, I think.

We see the spirit of a dog "up on the cloud" with Roy:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0534.html

so even Int 2 beings may get an afterlife.

[Wraithfighter]

Was Carrot Machiavellian? I genuinely don't remember him not being genuine?

It's... hard to say.

It's one of the things that made the later Watch books so fascinating: Carrot was no longer the Heroic But Naive Watchman, still plenty heroic and still a watchman, of course, but a lot less naive. And the characters that knew him closest, Vimes and Angua, got this disquieting sense that Carrot was a very complex person underneath all that apparent simplicity. Like, that he was aware that Discworld operated with Narrative Laws being on a similar level to the Laws of Physics, and always seemed to position himself in a place where he was the Noble Hero Saving The Day.

There's a reason why we're rarely in his head in the later Watch books. Scenes that involve him always get told from the perspective of another character, to keep the ambiguity about what goes on behind those entirely earnest and honest eyes...

[RatElemental]

Fun as a Sunny plushie would be I think that one's probably a hard ask. Rusty and Co. ran into some hot water when they tried to make a plushie of Rusty, and Rust Critters and Eye Tyrants are in a very similar boat.

[Kardwill]

Even if it was a child (with Elan and Thog, need more proof than just "behaves childlike") the literal world is at stake here and they need every arrow in their quiver. It's not as if the Gods will spare Sunny when they tear up creation.

It would still have some powerful "not cool to bring an innocent on the battlefield" vibes, though. Even if the ogic is sound, it would still feel wrong.

[danielxcutter]

Fun as a Sunny plushie would be I think that one's probably a hard ask. Rusty and Co. ran into some hot water when they tried to make a plushie of Rusty, and Rust Critters and Eye Tyrants are in a very similar boat.

I think Rich managed to cut a deal with WotC though.

[Emanick]

It would still have some powerful "not cool to bring an innocent on the battlefield" vibes, though. Even if the ogic is sound, it would still feel wrong.

I think it would be okay if it was explicitly addressed in the comic, as in "hey you're not fully grown this seems wrong" versus "yeah but if you guys lose because I'm not there, I not only die but risk getting my soul erased, so I still prefer this."

It requires Sunny to be old enough to at least understand the stakes, but that much seems to be the case.

[danielxcutter]

I think it would be okay if it was explicitly addressed in the comic, as in "hey you're not fully grown this seems wrong" versus "yeah but if you guys lose because I'm not there, I not only die but risk getting my soul erased, so I still prefer this."

It requires Sunny to be old enough to at least understand the stakes, but that much seems to be the case.

I think the problem is whether Serini will allow them - and frankly, as much as I do wish Serini gets her crap together soon, I wouldn't blame her at all if she didn't want adoptive children to be fighting the guy who tore her apart like string cheese and murdered her epic caster friends.

[Kardwill]

It's... hard to say.

It's one of the things that made the later Watch books so fascinating

I'd say it goes as early as the Rifle case (so, second book? don't remember), when he conveniently kills the only man who could identify him as a "true-heir-with-mysterious-birthmark", and we're left wondering "wait, did he act in self-defense to protect a bystander's life, or did he just commit murder to protect the political statu-quo?". His reaction is very ambiguous, and the fact that the documents mysteriously disapeared doesn't help.

[danielxcutter]

I'd say it goes as early as the Rifle case (so, second book? don't remember), when he conveniently kills the only man who could identify him as a "true-heir-with-mysterious-birthmark", and we're left wondering "wait, did he act in self-defense to protect a bystander's life, or did he just commit murder to protect the political statu-quo?". His reaction is very ambiguous, and the fact that the documents mysteriously disapeared doesn't help.

It does seem he genuinely doesn't want to be king because he doesn't think that'd be right for the city.

[Fyraltari]

But he does, once in a while, drop by the Palace to have a chat with the Patrician. During which, Vetinari listens very intensely.

[snowblizz]

I see Serini has been to the same managerial school as a friend of a friend who in all seriousness once told his work crews to "do what I thought, not what I told you!"

[danielxcutter]

I see Serini has been to the same managerial school as a friend of a friend who in all seriousness once told his work crews to "do what I thought, not what I told you!"

I think my eyes didn't shrivel up and fall out upon is because the concept of that did first.

[PontificatusRex]

It would still have some powerful "not cool to bring an innocent on the battlefield" vibes, though. Even if the ogic is sound, it would still feel wrong.

I think Sunny seems younger because he (it? they?) calls Serini "Mom", but really every team in the story except maybe Tarquin's has a very childlike, innocent-seeming member that gets lots of comedic material that contrasts their worldview with everyone else's. Elan, Thog, the Monster in the Darkness, and now Sunny all have that same role, but that doesn't mean they're not suitable for going into battle. I'm assuming one of these days the MitD will actually join in a fight for real...Heck, the bits we've seen from the Order of the Scribble suggest that Serini might have played a similar role in her team.

Interesting that in terms of writing comedy, now that the MitD has grown up a lot and gotten more serious, his role as comic relief in Team Evil has been largely taken over by Oona, who though not childlike still has an innocent-feeling joie de vivre that lends itself to similar humor.

[bunsen_h]

unless she wants to spend the rest of her life in those shackles (and since she expects the Order to die, that means dying of starvation fairly soon), she's going to talk.

In addition to points others have made about this, she has many monstrous allies in her dungeon.


I mean it’s entirely reasonable to assume Sunny’s not an adult by how they act.

The M*A*S*H episode "Divided We Stand" has an Army psychologist visit the unit to assess goings-on. He comments on the behaviour he's seen: "Childish! Not childlike, with its connotations of innocence and joyous abandon, but childish. You delight in petty bickering, summer camp capers and, in general, behave in a manner ill-befitting officers in the United States Army and members of the medical profession." (And then a bunch of wounded soldiers arrive, everyone drops the pretenses of misbehaviour, and Hildebrand gets to see them in professional action.)


I see Serini has been to the same managerial school as a friend of a friend who in all seriousness once told his work crews to "do what I thought, not what I told you!"

I once had a boss who was more than a bit like that. On any decision, he'd wait until after the last minute to decide, and then would still change his mind after work was under way. And he was a micromanager; any non-trivial decision in the company had to go through him. When I'd given my notice of resignation and was writing up a description of my position so it could be submitted to job-hunt sites, I included: "Moderate precognitive telepathy would be a distinct asset." I did point that sentence out to the office manager when I handed the description off to her, so she could remove it if she saw fit. She did delete it, but agreed with me fully that it was absolutely accurate.

She gave notice just two weeks after I did. She said that I'd seemed so much happier around the office that she'd done some serious self-reflecting and come to the same conclusion that I had. Working for that guy was so utterly soul-sucking that it was better to be unemployed, living off savings, and looking for work.

[Fyraltari]

I think Sunny seems younger because he (it? they?) calls Serini "Mom", but really every team in the story except maybe Tarquin's has a very childlike, innocent-seeming member that gets lots of comedic material that contrasts their worldview with everyone else's.

That does describe Tarquin's role in his gang.

[Lord Torath]

I also demand a plushie! Here you go: Some assembly required (https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=crochet+beholder&ia=web).

My wife actually made me one of these (although it's only get 6 eye stalks - she could only take so much).

[Squire Doodad]

That does describe Tarquin's role in his gang.

Tarquin is simply a professional Elan.

[Ruck]

It seems Serini and Haley's dad have similar problems regarding parental skills and trust issues. Is it a rogue thing?

Hmm. On the one hand, two is a pretty small sample size to draw any broader conclusions. On the other, "people who become rogues tend to have trust issues" has its own inherent logic to it.

[DeliaP]

The manacles she used on the paladins would have been my pick

With the bonus that they would actually be, you know, freeing their manacled freinds in the process!

I'm imagining the next strip having OotS and Serini having their discussion, and then Lien's voice calling down: "Yeah, while you're trying to reach an agreement there would one of you mind unlocking us???"

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm imagining the next strip having OotS and Serini having their discussion, and then Lien's voice calling down: "Yeah, while you're trying to reach an agreement there would one of you mind unlocking us???" Lien is very practical, yes she is. :smallsmile:

[Doctor West]

Fun as a Sunny plushie would be I think that one's probably a hard ask. Rusty and Co. ran into some hot water when they tried to make a plushie of Rusty, and Rust Critters and Eye Tyrants are in a very similar boat.

Worse, in fact. WotC had little to no legal basis to call foul on Rusty: Rust Monsters have been released to the public domain SRD and Rusty is a recognizable, legally distinct character besides. It's just hard for a webcomic author to push back when they get threatened with a lawsuit by a corporation, even if its based on crap. (And, the comic did have other trademarked creatures in it.)

Meanwhile Beholders are *actually* trademarked, not released to the SRD, and both TSR and WotC have a long history of being legendarily protective of them specifically. Rich has probably changed up enough (and has enough clout) to be safe, but making a physical product would run the risk of getting bad attention like the Rusty and Co case did to be sure.

[bunsen_h]

The manacles she used on the paladins would have been my pick

Lord Vetinari: "Never build a dungeon you wouldn't want to spend the night in yourself" and "Never build a dungeon you can't get out of".

[Skull the Troll]

Fun as a Sunny plushie would be I think that one's probably a hard ask. Rusty and Co. ran into some hot water when they tried to make a plushie of Rusty, and Rust Critters and Eye Tyrants are in a very similar boat.

If you google "Beholder Plushie" You find lots of people are doing it, many with alternative names.

[danielxcutter]

If you google "Beholder Plushie" You find lots of people are doing it, many with alternative names.

Yes, but I was under the impression that those were small. If someone as big as the Giant tried it, they might very well try to crack down on it hard - as mentioned earlier upthread, they went after Rusty and Co. with less justification and more BS than this.

That being said if the legal issues did not become a problem and Rich started selling them I imagine a considerable percentage of the fanbase would be falling over each other to shove money down his throat.

[Vikenlugaid]

I mean, even Serini seemed a bit childish/naive/innocent in the old times when she was adventuring with the scribblers, and that doesn't stop them to "use" her in a very dangerous quest.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, even Serini seemed a bit childish/naive/innocent in the old times when she was adventuring with the scribblers, and that doesn't stop them to "use" her in a very dangerous quest.

Even in the flashbacks, she's clearly operating at an adult-level of maturity, unlike Elan, Thog or Sunny.

[danielxcutter]

You know, on careful thought I don't actually think that was particularly immature or annoying unless there's further context.

[Peelee]

Anyway, Sunny doesn't seem much different from Elan or Thog. I don't see much reason to assume Sunny is a child and not simply immature in a similar way.

[danielxcutter]

I still choose to exercise skepticism to whether Serini will be willing to let Sunny aid the Order(whether or not she does), at least at first.

I mean, I wouldn't blame her. That's a fairly understandable reaction on several layers.

[Peelee]

I still choose to exercise skepticism to whether Serini will be willing to let Sunny aid the Order(whether or not she does), at least at first.

I mean, I wouldn't blame her. That's a fairly understandable reaction on several layers.

"Let" Sunny? Whatever you think of her or what her actual faults are, she has been shown to be empathetic and caring for "monstrous" races. I don't think this is a master/servant situation like you're describing.

[Fyraltari]

"Let" Sunny? Whatever you think of her or what her actual faults are, she has been shown to be empathetic and caring for "monstrous" races. I don't think this is a master/servant situation like you're describing.

She is their parent, though. Parents don't let their children do dangerous thing even without being their masters.

[Skull the Troll]

"Let" Sunny? Whatever you think of her or what her actual faults are, she has been shown to be empathetic and caring for "monstrous" races. I don't think this is a master/servant situation like you're describing.

She's clearly a respected leader, but even so respected leaders can make demands. I don't think Sunny would want to disappoint his Mom.

[danielxcutter]

Basically what the last two guys just said.

[Skull the Troll]

Anyone else thinking that the two paladins are over there wondering when they are going to get cut down?

[Peelee]

She is their parent, though. Parents don't let their children do dangerous thing even without being their masters.


She's clearly a respected leader, but even so respected leaders can make demands. I don't think Sunny would want to disappoint his Mom.

Eh. Roy didn't want Durkon to talk to Redcloak, but I wouldn't say that he didn't "let" Durkon do it. Just that he made his wishes known. I would expect something similar (if a bit more emphatic) from Serini.

[Fyraltari]

Eh. Roy didn't want Durkon to talk to Redcloak, but I wouldn't say that he didn't "let" Durkon do it. Just that he made his wishes known. I would expect something similar (if a bit more emphatic) from Serini.

Roy and Durkon have a dynamic of equals and best friends. Serini is Sunny's mother. This is not the same.

[Peelee]

Roy and Durkon have a dynamic of equals and best friends. Serini is Sunny's mother. This is not the same.

Roy is unequivocally the leader. The Order has a hierarchy, regardless of friendship.

[Skull the Troll]

Roy is unequivocally the leader. The Order has a hierarchy, regardless of friendship.

Though I largely agree with you, there's a difference between a boss and a mother. For some one or the other may be more important. Sunny clearly however idolizes Serini and does pretty much what she says. I don't know what would have happened if Serini had ordered eye #8, but its not inconceivable that he would have used it. It's also quite possible he might have refused. I don't think we know much about what would happen if Serini ordered Sunny to atack Elan right now, but I think its safe to assume that he would be conflicted.

[Fyraltari]

Roy is unequivocally the leader. The Order has a hierarchy, regardless of friendship.

Not the point.
A soldier can be expected to act independently. Sunny is a child. What's more, Roy knows Durkon is avtively choosing to fight Xykon of his own free will in full understanding of the consequences. While Sunny is Serini's child. Roy asking Durkon to do a dangerous thing is not the same Serini asking Sunny to do the same.

Note that Roy was unwilling to let his sister (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.htm), a teenager, participate for much the same reasons.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, she’s probably even weaker than Minrah.

[Peelee]

Not the point.
A soldier can be expected to act independently.
I don't think soldiers work the way you think they work. They do have the "master/servant" relationship, and when a soldier doesn't do what the higher-up orders them, that tends to be a big deal.

Sunny is a child. What's more, Roy knows Durkon is avtively choosing to fight Xykon of his own free will in full understanding of the consequences. While Sunny is Serini's child. Roy asking Durkon to do a dangerous thing is not the same Serini asking Sunny to do the same. Note that [url=https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.htmRoy was unwilling to ask his sister[/url], a teenager, to participate for much the same reasons.

Anyway, Sunny doesn't seem much different from Elan or Thog. I don't see much reason to assume Sunny is a child and not simply immature in a similar way.

Though I largely agree with you, there's a difference between a boss and a mother. For some one or the other may be more important. Sunny clearly however idolizes Serini and does pretty much what she says. I don't know what would have happened if Serini had ordered eye #8, but its not inconceivable that he would have used it. It's also quite possible he might have refused. I don't think we know much about what would happen if Serini ordered Sunny to atack Elan right now, but I think its safe to assume that he would be conflicted.
That's fair.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think soldiers work the way you think they work. They do have the "master/servant" relationship, and when a soldier doesn't do what the higher-up orders them, that tends to be a big deal.
Yes. They are asked to justify their actions in court-martial if necessary, and can be validated against their superiors sometimes.

More to the point, a soldier can be expected to fight the ennemy to the best of their ability without an officer supervising every shot.

The point I am trying to get across here, is that Durkon is not Roy's responsability in the way that Sunny is Serini's. Roy is Durkon's friend and employer, not his parent or guardian.


That's fair.
Thank you.

[InvisibleBison]

Roy is unequivocally the leader. The Order has a hierarchy, regardless of friendship.

I'm not sure Roy would agree (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html) with your interpretation of his relationship with the rest of the Order.

[Peelee]

I'm not sure Roy would agree (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html) with your interpretation of his relationship with the rest of the Order.

I'm sorry, I think I missed the part where I said Roy was a totalitarian leader who enforced his will upon the others by contractual obligation.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not sure Roy would agree (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html) with your interpretation of his relationship with the rest of the Order.

Yes he does. Panel 9. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0769.html)

[RatElemental]

Yes he does. Panel 9. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0769.html)

He also feels responsible for things that happen to them under his command, panel 11 here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html).

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think this is a master/servant situation like you're describing. Seems a lot like mentor/student, but he does call her "Mom" and "Boss" - which means that I don't think that it's crystal clear.
Anyone else thinking that the two paladins are over there wondering when they are going to get cut down? Yes. :smallsmile:

Though I largely agree with you, there's a difference between a boss and a mother. For some one or the other may be more important. Sunny clearly however idolizes Serini and does pretty much what she says. . Most of the time. (The bit about turning to stone being a notable exception).

I don't think soldiers work the way you think they work. They do have the "master/servant" relationship, and when a soldier doesn't do what the higher-up orders them, that tends to be a big deal. Soldiers (depending on which army they are in) are supposed to use their initiative (they are not mindless automatons) which sometimes results in superb outcomes (See Sgt York as but one example).

I'm sorry, I think I missed the part where I said Roy was a totalitarian leader who enforced his will upon the others by contractual obligation. In support of this point, he most explicitly does not (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html) as of the linked strip.

[Baelzar]

Was Carrot Machiavellian? I genuinely don't remember him not being genuine?Carrot is completely genuine in his belief that rules should be followed, and as long as Vetinari follows the rules he will be allowed to keep making them.

[Liquor Box]

I don't really think that Sunny is actually a child. It still seems as large as a beholder should, and it's powers are not diminished (based on how many saves the order failed, it may actually be more powerful than an ordinary beholder).

If it is not a child, I don't agree that it's wrong to bring it into battle just because it may not have the mental capacity to understand what's going on. We aren't critical of Oona for bringing her wolf into combat, even though it presumably has a limited understanding of what's happening.

[Fyraltari]

If it is not a child, I don't agree that it's wrong to bring it into battle just because it may not have the mental capacity to understand what's going on. We aren't critical of Oona for bringing her wolf into combat, even though it presumably has a limited understanding of what's happening.

What are you talking about? Greyview has a very clear, if overly pessimistic, understanding of what's going on.

[Liquor Box]

What are you talking about? Greyview has a very clear, if overly pessimistic, understanding of what's going on.

Well I meant that he wasn't as smart as the people and other clever monsters (like Xykon). But if you think he has a good understanding, sub in the shark or Belkar's dinosaur.

Overall I guess I'm just saying that being a bit less smart than a normal person isn't reason enough to prevent someone going into combat. It's different from being an actual child.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well I meant that he wasn't as smart as the people and other clever monsters (like Xykon). But if you think he has a good understanding, sub in the shark or Belkar's dinosaur.

Overall I guess I'm just saying that being a bit less smart than a normal person isn't reason enough to prevent someone going into combat. It's different from being an actual child. We can add Thog to this illustration if you'd like. :thog:

[Nymrod]

I don't really think that Sunny is actually a child. It still seems as large as a beholder should, and it's powers are not diminished (based on how many saves the order failed, it may actually be more powerful than an ordinary beholder).

If it is not a child, I don't agree that it's wrong to bring it into battle just because it may not have the mental capacity to understand what's going on. We aren't critical of Oona for bringing her wolf into combat, even though it presumably has a limited understanding of what's happening.

It seems Medium, about the same size with all the humanoids, while Beholders are Large. It also has eight eyes instead of ten.
HOWEVER, there was a beholder shown in an early strip (after the mind flayer) that also was of the same size and with only eight eyestalks (and would not have made much sense to be a child) so that's perhaps how eye tyrants look in this version of the world.

Also Sunny definitely seems fairly intelligent but rather naive. Worgs are also intelligent creatures, just somewhat less so than the average human.

[Fyraltari]

Well I meant that he wasn't as smart as the people and other clever monsters (like Xykon).
I'm still confused by why you think that. He's even got a better grasp of whatver common tongue they're using than Oona!


But if you think he has a good understanding, sub in the shark or Belkar's dinosaur.
Razor's immortal (I think) and Bloodbeast is an animal trained for fighting. Although he hasn't been in any fight since he's got sizeshifted.


Overall I guess I'm just saying that being a bit less smart than a normal person isn't reason enough to prevent someone going into combat. It's different from being an actual child.
But it's not a question of smarts. It's a question of whether a mother would let her child (who regardless of age, has the maturity of an actual child) go to fight the man who butchered her friends and nearly killed her.

[InvisibleBison]

I honestly don't know why people think Sunny is childlike. They're bad at tactics and being intimidating, sure, but those aren't essential skills for being an adult.

[Riftwolf]

I honestly don't know why people think Sunny is childlike. They're bad at tactics and being intimidating, sure, but those aren't essential skills for being an adult.

It stems from "Is Serini pure evil? Discuss", I think. Sunny acts a lot like Elan, and Elan is described as childlike, therefore Sunny is a child. Therefore Serini is evil for taking a literal child into battle, but Roy isn't evil for taking Elan into several battles because he's the protagonist.
Imagine if Elan was still living with his mum guarding their village and had taken all his levels in Sorcerer with d8 hit dice (It's 3.5 so I'll assume there's a feat for that). That's how I imagine Sunny.

[Zekestone]

Aww, who's a good beholder? You are, yes you are.

[danielxcutter]

It stems from "Is Serini pure evil? Discuss", I think. Sunny acts a lot like Elan, and Elan is described as childlike, therefore Sunny is a child. Therefore Serini is evil for taking a literal child into battle, but Roy isn't evil for taking Elan into several battles because he's the protagonist.
Imagine if Elan was still living with his mum guarding their village and had taken all his levels in Sorcerer with d8 hit dice (It's 3.5 so I'll assume there's a feat for that). That's how I imagine Sunny.

No, that’s not it at all(also most people very much are not arguing that Serini is pure evil); the way I see it is that half the reason Serini brought Sunny is because she had such low expectations for the Order she didn’t think they’d pose a threat to her kids at all. And the other half is because trapping the party in an inescapable AMF is incredibly cheesy and if a DM pulls that kind of stunt I think the players have ground to call BS on it.

[Exantius]

Most of the time. (The bit about turning to stone being a notable exception).


She was asking Sunny to effectively kill Haley, which for an apparent pacifist (or at least someone unwilling to kill good people) is a lot harder to obey than just asking them to not participate in a fight. If Serini insists that Sunny doesn't fight, I think Sunny will honor her wish

[Exantius]

I honestly don't know why people think Sunny is childlike. They're bad at tactics and being intimidating, sure, but those aren't essential skills for being an adult.

Beholders are usually Evil, cruel and intimidating, so when we encounter one who's kind and lighthearted, not to mention calling a halfling "mom", it's not far-fetched to think that one is not fully matured. It isn't necessarily the case, as the comic has plenty of naive characters that aren't children, but it's one possible explanation to Sunny's quirky behavior.

Also, the Monster in the Darkness is speculated to be a child (based on naive behavior similar to Sunny's, and Oona saying he will grow still) so many are predisposed to assuming a childish monster character might be a child

[danielxcutter]

Beholders are usually Evil, cruel and intimidating, so when we encounter one who's kind and lighthearted, not to mention calling a halfling "mom", it's not far-fetched to think that one is not fully matured. It isn't necessarily the case, as the comic has plenty of naive characters that aren't children, but it's one possible explanation to Sunny's quirky behavior.

Also, the Monster in the Darkness is speculated to be a child (based on naive behavior similar to Sunny's, and Oona saying he will grow still) so many are predisposed to assuming a childish monster character might be a child

Defenestrating the concept of racial alignment is kind of like half the point of the recent arc(and a number of the print-only books).

[Vikenlugaid]

I'm still confused by why you think that. He's even got a better grasp of whatver common tongue they're using than Oona!


Razor's immortal (I think) and Bloodbeast is an animal trained for fighting. Although he hasn't been in any fight since he's got sizeshifted.


But it's not a question of smarts. It's a question of whether a mother would let her child (who regardless of age, has the maturity of an actual child) go to fight the man who butchered her friends and nearly killed her.

And Bloodfest is very inteligent, he saved the day waking up the cleric from.a sleep spell.

[Mic_128]

Anyone else thinking that the two paladins are over there wondering when they are going to get cut down?

Seeing as how there's probably been only 10 seconds between trussing up Serini and Sunny appearing, I don't think they've really been waiting that long, and they don't' seem to be in a particularly painful position.

[Peelee]

the way I see it is that half the reason Serini brought Sunny is because she had such low expectations for the Order

Sunny's incredible effectiveness at helping disable the entire party almost instantly notwithstanding? I seem to recall you were rather perturbed by it at the time.

Imean, if I take a howitzer to a duel, it's hardly fair to say I have low expectations for the other person.

[Metastachydium]

Sunny's incredible effectiveness at helping disable the entire party almost instantly notwithstanding? I seem to recall you were rather perturbed by it at the time.

Imean, if I take a howitzer to a duel, it's hardly fair to say I have low expectations for the other person.

Well, if your howitzer sabotages your attempts at psychological warfare, can be jammed by talking and raises ethical objections to shooting your opponent dead… It might very well be.
Sunny is, of course, ridiculously powerful (comes with being a Thing with All the Eyes, really), but at the same time, Sunny has serious reliability issues (which is a setup we've seen before with the Monster, albeit turned up to eleven (he might very well be the most powerful mortal around, but he only ever achieves stuff by accident)).

[Peelee]

Well, if your howitzer sabotages your attempts at psychological warfare, can be jammed by talking and raises ethical objections to shooting your opponent dead… It might very well be.
Sunny is, of course, ridiculously powerful (comes with being a Thing with All the Eyes, really), but at the same time, Sunny has serious reliability issues (which is a setup we've seen before with the Monster, albeit turned up to eleven (he might very well be the most powerful mortal around, but he only ever achieves stuff by accident)).

No more so than Thog, I don't think. Same for the childishness. Regardless, I don't think bringing Sunny is indicative of underestimating an opponent. If anything, not bringing Sunny would be.

[KorvinStarmast]

And the other half is because trapping the party in an inescapable AMF is incredibly cheesy and if a DM pulls that kind of stunt I think the players have ground to call BS on it. Hmm, it's kind of beholder schtick in D&D since Greyhawk came out. "Inescapable" is a matter of tactics and positioning, and if a beholder has very high intelligence you'd expect one to set up its lair in order to get the most effect out of its talents. The D&D 5e MM and Volos Guide to Monsters both have some good treatment on how to set up a beholder lair. I am sure there have been some articles in Dragon over the years on how to run a beholder as a DM DM's don't have to play the monsters and NPCs as stupid.

If Serini insists that Sunny doesn't fight, I think Sunny will honor her wish I'll buy a few shares of stock in this.

Defenestrating the concept of racial alignment is kind of like half the point of the recent arc(and a number of the print-only books). But a beholder is an aberration, not a race. :smallyuk: Trope / expectation subversion is another story. The iconic beholder began as a neutral, sometimes chaotic, eye tyrant who was very hard to defeat. And it wasn't very big. The transition to lawful evil came in AD&D. I like what 5e does with beholders: not so much evil as insane / paranoid / alien in thought. (Didn't play to a high enough level in 3.x before putting D&D on the shelf for a while to run into any of them, so not sure how much different that is from 3.x approach).
BEHOLDERS: These monsters are also known as Spheres of Many Eyes, or as Eye Tyrants. The body of these creatures is a great globe of about 3' in diameter. {snip}
In addition, the Beholders are able to levitate themselves and float slowly about. These monsters are avaricious. They are neutral in nature, although they tend to be chaotic. If we posit Sunny as initially neutral, you can see an easy swing (nature plus nurture) to Good / CG based on Serini's mentoring. Given Elan's behavior and CG alignment, and the similarities Sunny shows in outlook to Elan, I'd drop a few centavos on Sunny being firmly CG in alignment.

[Metastachydium]

No more so than Thog, I don't think.

Thog… Is not exactly even pretending to be a useful asset most of the time, so that's not exactly a high bar.


Same for the childishness. Regardless, I don't think bringing Sunny is indicative of underestimating an opponent. If anything, not bringing Sunny would be.

Well, I did say might. Serini wouldn't have got half as far with that ambush without them. (But then, she expected that the Order will be completely powerless to come anywhere near harming either of them, so…)

[Peelee]

Thog… Is not exactly even pretending to be a useful asset most of the time

Eh, I disagree. Thog doesn't particularly care about why he does what he does, but he clearly believes he is useful. He even brags about his build and how he doesn't need the third level of fighter.

[Metastachydium]

Eh, I disagree. Thog doesn't particularly care about why he does what he does, but he clearly believes he is useful. He even brags about his build and how he doesn't need the third level of fighter.

Heh, fair. You got me there.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, I did say might. Serini wouldn't have got half as far with that ambush without them. (But then, she expected that the Order will be completely powerless to come anywhere near harming either of them, so…) I am not sure what she expected, but she surely underestimated their capability. Hubris?

[Peelee]

Well, I did say might. Serini wouldn't have got half as far with that ambush without them. (But then, she expected that the Order will be completely powerless to come anywhere near harming either of them, so…)


I am not sure what she expected, but she surely underestimated their capability. Hubris?

I can agree with that. She's definitely got hubris in spades.

[Fyraltari]

Nah, hybris would be still thinking she can take Xykon down herself.

[Peelee]

Nah, hybris would be still thinking she can take Xykon down herself.

Hubris doesn't mean confidence you can do anything. It can just be excessive pride. She certainly takes excessive pride in her beliefs.

[Kardwill]

Hubris doesn't mean confidence you can do anything. It can just be excessive pride. She certainly takes excessive pride in her beliefs.

Part of her mindset seems to be "We were the best of the best, and Xykon tore through us as if we were wet toilet paper. Of course those bumbling fools/low-level-nobodies don't stand a chance!"
She doesn't see anyone succeeding where her party failed, so yeah, hubris

(In fact, the same hubris you'll see in any player-character. Let's be frank, in a game, most player would pretty much be in Serini's mindset if some stupid low level NPCs came trying to steal the show. Especially if those NPCs had been established as comic relief in earlier adventures ^^)

[Fyraltari]

Hubris doesn't mean confidence you can do anything.
That's how I've always seen the word used. hybris is the flaw of the man who believes himself to be above the natural order of things, to be able to reach above the metaphorical heavens.

It can just be excessive pride.
Hmm, this might be a language issue, since French already has a separate word for that.

She certainly takes excessive pride in her beliefs.
I don't recall her expressing pride in any belief. :smallconfused:

[lcavalheiro]

Elan the Befriender bard-ed the beholder ;-)

[Skull the Troll]

Part of her mindset seems to be "We were the best of the best, and Xykon tore through us as if we were wet toilet paper. Of course those bumbling fools/low-level-nobodies don't stand a chance!"
She doesn't see anyone succeeding where her party failed, so yeah, hubris

(In fact, the same hubris you'll see in any player-character. Let's be frank, in a game, most player would pretty much be in Serini's mindset if some stupid low level NPCs came trying to steal the show. Especially if those NPCs had been established as comic relief in earlier adventures ^^)

That.. is the best argument I've seen yet for her attitude. It's a self-aware stick figure parody and she doesnt realize shes been demoted to NPC.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's a self-aware stick figure parody and she doesn't realize she's been demoted to NPC. Nice take. :smallsmile: (I added the apostrophes)

[Doug Lampert]

Haley stopped keeping Search and Disable Device maxed before. If she's had to ration her skill points, I'd bet Use Rope was a low priority too.

Once the Order leaves, Serini is free to take 20, so any option is likely to be temporary. For now I think that's all they want; they just need to make sure she stays put while they have a conversation.

Long-term, they could conceivably trap her in this room if they take Sunny and her wands with them.

Early comics it was at least 8. So probably high but not maxed.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html


But he does, once in a while, drop by the Palace to have a chat with the Patrician. During which, Vetinari listens very intensely.

Well, yes, Carrot does not want to be king, and Vetinari does not want Carrot to be king, so it behooves the two of them to cooperate on making sure that he does not ever object to the current government enough to force him to become king to prevent or to do something.


Soldiers (depending on which army they are in) are supposed to use their initiative (they are not mindless automatons) which sometimes results in superb outcomes (See Sgt York as but one example).

I have heard it claimed that one German junior officer in his court-martial defended himself that he was following orders, and the panel responded, "You are not an officer to follow orders, you were made an officer to win battles."

The basic idea being that there are times a soldier is more or less required to use their initiative. Following an order given with obviously bad or outdated information is not a desirable thing in a modern military.

[PontificatusRex]

Part of her mindset seems to be "We were the best of the best, and Xykon tore through us as if we were wet toilet paper. Of course those bumbling fools/low-level-nobodies don't stand a chance!"
She doesn't see anyone succeeding where her party failed, so yeah, hubris


I'm just waiting for someone to point out that Xykon never defeated her party, he took them out one by one. Heck Xykon even had his own team in some instances. Soon created his own team/army and would have won if not for Miko. It would have been fascinating to see Team Evil take on the Draketooth clan - I really don't think it would have been an automatic win, especially considering that the family had been doing pretty much nothing but preparing to defend the gate for decades and I can only imagine that they would have had plans in places for contingencies like "Attack by extremely powerful spellcasters".

I think if Serini is brought around it's going to be by the argument that the Order can accomplish things as a group that more powerful individuals can't. Heck, Elan can point out that you always need the whole group when it's time to fight the Final Boss.

[Fyraltari]

Heck, Elan can point out that you always need the whole group when it's time to fight the Final Boss.

Come on, in like five-sixtbs of the time, the various allies of the heroes get bogged down fighting minor villains and it all comes down to a duel between the hero and the big bad.

[Kornaki]

Come on, in like five-sixtbs of the time, the various allies of the heroes get bogged down fighting minor villains and it all comes down to a duel between the hero and the big bad.

Yeah, and if they didn't have the team, the hero would be bogged down fighting the minor villains while the big bad ends the world.

[Forum Explorer]

Sunny's incredible effectiveness at helping disable the entire party almost instantly notwithstanding? I seem to recall you were rather perturbed by it at the time.

Imean, if I take a howitzer to a duel, it's hardly fair to say I have low expectations for the other person.

I think more along the lines that the OotS is much more likely to not use lethal force against Sunny. Or failing that, lack the ability to one shot them.

[danielxcutter]

She obviously has a far dimmer view of them compared to Xykon, that’s probably a major factor.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have heard it claimed that one German junior officer in his court-martial defended himself that he was following orders, and the panel responded, "You are not an officer to follow orders, you were made an officer to win battles."

The basic idea being that there are times a soldier is more or less required to use their initiative. Following an order given with obviously bad or outdated information is not a desirable thing in a modern military. Correct. The Germans had a core doctrine called Auftragstaktik which captures what you are referring to. ... a form of military tactics where the emphasis is on the outcome of a mission rather than the specific means of achieving it. ... The subordinate leaders then implement the order independently.

It presumes the absence of micromanagement from the higher echelons and political echelons, which may have been reasonable assumptions in 1942 but in 2022 is not a valid assumption. (And I'll stop with the thread drift right there).

[F.Harr]

No matter what you try to teach, it gets learned wrong.

No wonder they get special schools.

[Exantius]

It would have been fascinating to see Team Evil take on the Draketooth clan - I really don't think it would have been an automatic win, especially considering that the family had been doing pretty much nothing but preparing to defend the gate for decades and I can only imagine that they would have had plans in places for contingencies like "Attack by extremely powerful spellcasters".

I like this point. IMO people really downplay the Draketooth clan. I've seen people say Xycon would've just rolled over them all because illusions are useless against the undead, and while the part about illusions is true it places too much emphasis on the illusions and not enough on the wizards/sorcerers that cast them.

If we look at the illusion schedule at #842, we see there are at the minimum nine arcane spellcasters, at least two of whom are level 15 or higher (screen and shifting paths are level 8 spells). Then there are at least 11 other characters (#841 has twenty corpses on-panel).

If they had been alive, and especially if the Order had reached them early enough to warn them (e.g. the clan may have scried and 'ported in to interrogate the Order when they triggered the trap in #695, which would've given them weeks to prepare for Xycon), I think they would have been a good match for Xycon, moreso than Lirian or Dorukan individually

[brian 333]

It just occurred to me that each gate fell due to a blindspot in each defense:

Lirian's gate fell due to her not warding against fire.

Dorukon's gate fell because his love for Lirian was exploited.

Soon's gate fell because of the fanatacism of one (fallen) paladin.

Draketooth's gate fell because of an exploitable reliance upon a single genetic heritage.

It is beginoing to look like Serini's gate will fall unless she learns to trust others.

I'm not saying these are obvious issues for which the various defenders should have prepared; mortals all have blind spots and some of these blind spots were highly unlikely. I am saying that it seems to be yet another theme in the comic: going it alone leads to disaster because the lone hero can overlook something or with the aid of a partner can fill in for a weakness.

[Kardwill]

I'm just waiting for someone to point out that Xykon never defeated her party, he took them out one by one.

Which might be a hard sell, since IIRC splitting up the party and breaking communication and coordination between the defenders of the different gates was Serini's idea. She might not want to contemplate too closely the thought that she's partly responsible for her friends' death.

In fact, her stubbornness might be fed by the idea that her plan HAD to be worth it and no other alternative were reasonable. Otherwise, that means she made a terrible mistake, and no-one wants to deal with that sort of guilt. So Redcloak may not be the only character who is deep in sunken cost territory.

[hroþila]

The party was already broken. All Serini did was prevent a potentially lethal fight. There was no turning back at that point, no possibility of continued cooperation.

[KorvinStarmast]

The party was already broken. All Serini did was prevent a potentially lethal fight. Agree.

There was no turning back at that point, no possibility of continued cooperation. Disagree (more as a matter of principle than as the matter of narrative convenience (which is why the author chose for them not to reconcile)). People in fact can reconcile with one another if they bother to put forth the effort and stop being so selfish; it is possible, I've seen it done. (I've also seen it not done).
But it takes effort and a willingness to meet the other halfway.

[Peelee]

Disagree (more as a matter of principle than as the matter of narrative convenience (which is why the author chose for them not to reconcile)). People in fact can reconcile with one another if they bother to put forth the effort and stop being so selfish; it is possible, I've seen it done.

And in how many of those cases was at least part of the problem "you killed our friend"?

[Wintermoot]

And in how many of those cases was at least part of the problem "you killed our friend"?

In real life or in Media?

Thankfully, in real life, "you killed our friend" is pretty rarified. In Media, it's nearly the norm. We are rewatchign Arrow right now and half that show is people reconciling and becoming friends with someone who killed their old friend (granted, the old friend then comes back only to die again ad naseaum)

It certainly isn't hard to think of cases of "we reconciled even though you killed our friend" in media. And the OotS is media after all.

Althought I stand by my belief that once "the truth" finally gets revealed, the story of Kragor's death won't be "Soon did it" or even "Soon is mostly responsible" so much as "overcome with grief, Dorokun and Gerard lashed out at the available target" (or, in Gerard's case, not so much "overcome with grief" as "mildly annoyed with grief")

[danielxcutter]

Dorkuan probably did lash out with grief, but Girard is... well Girard; I'm 99% sure that he was the problem member of the party and until evidence to the contrary comes up I'm going to bet that he was the primary reason for how utterly bad it went after Kraagor's unmaking.

[Peelee]

Dorkuan probably did lash out with grief, but Girard is... well Girard; I'm 99% sure that he was the problem member of the party and until evidence to the contrary comes up I'm going to bet that he was the primary reason for how utterly bad it went after Kraagor's unmaking.

I'm with you on that Girard was almost certainly the primary reason.

[danielxcutter]

It's the same with the other adventurer teams, but none of the counterparts are perfect matches for each character one-on-one except the Linear Guild(who did that on purpose and even then it's still not 100%). However, I think Girard parallels Belkar in being the problem-maker and unlike him didn't get better or get his crap together either.

[InvisibleBison]

I've seen people say Xycon would've just rolled over them all because illusions are useless against the undead, and while the part about illusions is true it places too much emphasis on the illusions and not enough on the wizards/sorcerers that cast them.

The part about illusions is in fact not correct. Neither undead in general nor liches in particular are immune to illusions; they're only immune to mind-affecting effects, and not all illusions are mind-affecting. Of the nine spells on the list in #842, only Wall of Gloom and possibly Phantasmagoria (I couldn't find a spell by that name) are mind-affecting. The other seven would work just fine against Xykon.

[danielxcutter]

Xykon also has Superb Dispelling and a high Will save though, plus most illusions are completely worthless once True Seeing becomes commonplace. It's not a personal spell, either.

[Emanick]

Xykon also has Superb Dispelling and a high Will save though, plus most illusions are completely worthless once True Seeing becomes commonplace. It's not a personal spell, either.

Xykon can probably only cast Superb Dispelling once, though - twice, at most. Meanwhile, he's facing dozens of casters, several of whom are high level and all of whom get to cast once per round. At the same time, I would be surprised if many of Girard's family weren't also capable of dispelling, and since Xykon doesn't seem to know True Seeing, they only have to beat Redcloak's DC.